Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

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Flower Power
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Flower Power » Fri May 20, 2022 6:08 am

I know that, for a lot of people, I'm seen as a bit of an unpleasant and unchill dude - a lot of that stems, though, from seeing the way the server used to be (the aforementioned culture of "sometimes bad things happen to good adventurers") and watching it slowly slide into a collection of groups and smaller subcultures that all aggressively dislike each other on a visceral and OOC level.

I know I'm certainly not innocent of harboring grudges against groups or players, and that's something I find myself having to work on as a person and a player on a regular basis. I'm not happy at all that Arelith ended up having to come to this pass, because I started on the server young enough to be able to say that I very much grew up spending a lot of my leisure time playing it. I still do, from time to time, and even if I don't like everything about where the server is at, I still cherish the time I've spent here.

I'm hoping that plenty of people skimming through all of this can take a breath and come away with less of an attitude of "good riddance to bad rubbish", because it's never happy to see things devolve to a point where players need to go, and there's perhaps something to be said here that we all, as a community, need to internalize.
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Dr. B » Fri May 20, 2022 6:46 am

Instead of straight up changing the rules, just add some guidelines after the rules, like:

In addition, the following behavior is frowned upon: negativity and gossip in OOC channels, initiating PvP with the same character across multiple characters, and taking OOC conflicts IC. While we will handle everything on a case by case basis, we highly discourage this type of behavior and may have to punish it if we determine it is a detriment to the server.
--
No need to rewrite the rules, and at the same time no need to write a new rule or set of rules that is difficult to police. Just emphasize that this behavior can get a person into trouble if it gets out of hand and so it is best avoided in the first place. Not everything can be codified, and it's okay to have general guidelines and case-by-case rulings.

That said, all of this seems to fall under Be Nice.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by DM Rainbow » Fri May 20, 2022 11:46 am

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 8:49 pm
Won't change anything. People will make new characters that are a variation of their last one and keep going where they left off. They do this already, and I've seen it happen in multiple groups so it's not just one group of players doing it. My own character has been used to try and "download" information to new characters so people can hate the same people they've hated on for a decade.

A lot of these issues are very complex, with a lot of side issues tying into them. I don't think there's one simple, easy solution. But we can start by trying to be better, and encouraging each other to be better.
We have actually started looking more closely at the ways in which information is transmitted between characters of the same player. While we as DMs usually only intervene if something threatens the integrity of the setting or the community, it is not like there isn't anything that can be done to curb the Crossing of Streams that continues to be a primary motivating factor behind a lot of the grief afflicting the community.

If you as a player notice someone actively seeking out resources of information that were "seeded", such as books, journals or notes penned by the previous character, or IC connections that were previously established, remind these players politely that we do not condone such behaviour. Nobody is going to prevent anyone from playing with their friends, but in many cases information is power, and sometimes it is used to perpetuate a warped view of the shared world we inhabit.

In such cases, do not normalize this. Do not throw up your hands and say "everyone does this, so I might as well join". It falls to each and everyone of us to ensure that Arelith is and continues to be an enjoyable place to roleplay in.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Fri May 20, 2022 12:39 pm

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't join in on it. I stopped giving them the narrative they want to hear and they stopped coming to me. But if the team is cracking down on it, I'll report it when I see it next.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by ClockworkRed » Fri May 20, 2022 12:49 pm

I joined just a little less that two years ago and I must say I had only very good experiences with the community. Joined a few factions with different PCs and met many great players.

I just want to comment on one point brought up in the initial post that the server is MASSIVE so co-existance should be easy. This is the case in terms of number of amazing maps/settlements.

But - from my limited observations - as soon as conflict is happening, the server becomes very small when weaponinzing scrying geolocating mechanics, login notification/who-is-online portal and the teleport portal system. That makes co-existance of enemy factions quite difficult from what I have seen so far.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Hazard » Fri May 20, 2022 1:13 pm

Death to scry.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Fri May 20, 2022 1:18 pm

Xerah wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 10:57 pm
I've been guild leaders and settlement leaders and have often been involved in server defining stuff.
As much as I am down for a humble brag from time to time myself, I read this and I have to wonder what server you play on. No one I know ever really sees a dm, let alone "have often been in server defining stuff". I'm not being the sad guy in the corner or anything here, I always have fun playing the game or I wouldn't and the people I play with are likely the same, but I can certainly see how if the vast majority of players are left out of anything meaningful some might resort to over the top pvp to keep the game fun.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Ork » Fri May 20, 2022 1:43 pm

Hazard wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 1:13 pm
Death to scry.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Xerah » Fri May 20, 2022 2:56 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 1:18 pm
Xerah wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 10:57 pm
I've been guild leaders and settlement leaders and have often been involved in server defining stuff.
As much as I am down for a humble brag from time to time myself, I read this and I have to wonder what server you play on. No one I know ever really sees a dm, let alone "have often been in server defining stuff". I'm not being the sad guy in the corner or anything here, I always have fun playing the game or I wouldn't and the people I play with are likely the same, but I can certainly see how if the vast majority of players are left out of anything meaningful some might resort to over the top pvp to keep the game fun.
It's not a humblebrag. It's putting my comment into context (which you selectively removed from the quote). The only thing I'd "humblebrag" about is being able to do things without having to PVP to get anything done, with or without a DM, since people think that's impossible (and I'm not at all humble about it). I've probably been in like a dozen or so non arena PVP matches in 7 years.
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Arienette » Fri May 20, 2022 2:57 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 1:18 pm
Xerah wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 10:57 pm
I've been guild leaders and settlement leaders and have often been involved in server defining stuff.
As much as I am down for a humble brag from time to time myself, I read this and I have to wonder what server you play on. No one I know ever really sees a dm, let alone "have often been in server defining stuff". I'm not being the sad guy in the corner or anything here, I always have fun playing the game or I wouldn't and the people I play with are likely the same, but I can certainly see how if the vast majority of players are left out of anything meaningful some might resort to over the top pvp to keep the game fun.
This is almost certainly super far off topic, but...

Since the DM Staff got a buff a little while back, there have been big and small DM events going on, several times a week, almost daily. These are not events that are private to a select group of characters, they are events where the DM does a server-wide Shout saying "Oh geeze, there is something wild happening in [insert place here]."

There have been so many events that some people have actually suggested that the DMs might should tone it down a bit.

And server-defining stuff doesnt have to be (and usually IS NOT) DM events. A server-defining thing could be the administration of a particularly good (or bad) Chancellor of Cordor, or an epic naval battle. It could be creating or improving a library, or hosting a series of lectures or language lessons. Or any of dozens of other things.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Eira » Fri May 20, 2022 3:18 pm

It is always interesting to see "meaningful" defined as involving DMs or (I am assuming this is meant by server defining) permanent server changes. This is actually a common mindset.

The only people I have seen have zero impact on other characters, aka the entire population of the world who share stories of enemies or comrades, write down histories, make fixtures, pass down weapons, hold memories, are those who don't interact with anyone on their silent run to 30.

Some of the greatest players I know avoid DM events as much as they can and all the greatest characters mine remember are for actions that have nothing to do with saving the island from certain implosion or whatever.

As a general rule in all interactive things, put earnest effort into a community and it will put effort into you.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Skibbles » Fri May 20, 2022 3:33 pm

I'm really enjoying most of the comments here but it's kind of veering off the topic of tangible ideas that might mitigate or diffuse community hostility.

I really think we need more tools and expectations with how to handle them.

The shop and quarter ownership problem wasn't handled with calls for responsibility and good advice - it was bludgeoned to death with a mechanic that we can all at collectively understand, accept, and use even if begrudgingly. It's tangible, and inarguable.

UiliamNebel brought up settlements as a potential cause for conflict that gets out of hand. It's not entirely wrong. Maybe the election or succession system needs to at least be examined as a vector?

In January of this thread I brought up crime and punishment, and ways that we can deal with it. If we're better able to deal out IC consequences with more appropriate severity then it's likely to feel less personal.

Hot take, but maybe gate more things behind RPR. Make people at least read what the culture is supposed to be here and what they need to do to become part of it.

Either we need more tools, additional rules, greater leaning into the ooc aspects of RPR, or all three and more.

We've had hundreds of amazing updates in every single aspect of Arelith - but we're still using ancient decade+ old systems of conflict reminiscent of prison gangs designed for a fraction of the player base we have now.

PS - Also, sure, sign me up on the death to scry train (is it any wonder that players gravitating to 'solo' play might find this of interest? Worth considering.)
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Aradin » Fri May 20, 2022 4:07 pm

I agree with the general sentiment of wanting more mechanics for resolving conflicts. Whether it's for matters of crime and punishment, for large-scale faction warfare, or wherever conflict brews, I think providing players with mechanical options for resolving conflict could go a long way towards ending some of the cycles of back-and-forth smashing each other. Like we've shown as a playerbase that if left entirely to our own devices we often brew up unresolved plotlines, griefing, hurt feelings and players leaving. So maybe we shouldn't be left to our own devices so much.

As an overall playerbase we didn't play nicely when it came to shop and quarter ownership, so the lottery mechanic was introduced to take the choice out of our hands. I didn't then and don't now think that was a good thing when it comes to roleplaying. The lottery system removed fun roleplaying options from shop and quarter ownership and we're worse off, roleplay-wise, with it existing. But I still support it because without it, we've shown we abuse the system. If things are so bad that IG feels the need to make announcements like this, then maybe we need that same necessary evil when it comes to conflicts.

edit: Poorly phrased, let me clarify; if new mechanical devices to resolve conflict DO get added in, I'd advocate for them being optional - not a mandatory all-encompassing system like the lottery system is.
Last edited by Aradin on Fri May 20, 2022 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Xerah » Fri May 20, 2022 4:09 pm

Arienette wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 2:57 pm
And server-defining stuff doesnt have to be (and usually IS NOT) DM events. A server-defining thing could be the administration of a particularly good (or bad) Chancellor of Cordor, or an epic naval battle. It could be creating or improving a library, or hosting a series of lectures or language lessons. Or any of dozens of other things.
Exactly, meaning not being in the background. The more front-facing of a character you have, the more likely someone is going to do something (positive or negative) to interact with that character which means more chances for PVP to happen.
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Fri May 20, 2022 4:25 pm

Eira wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 3:18 pm
It is always interesting to see "meaningful" defined as involving DMs or (I am assuming this is meant by server defining) permanent server changes.
Can you make that assumption when the person who initially used the term server defining is someone who played a huge role in reshaping cordor into a scry state? I'm not saying anything is wrong with that, I thought that character was awesome even from a distance and deserved all the kudos and love they got. But I can also rattle off a list of equally awesome characters that have never been able to accomplish anything like that. Is it just the luck of the draw? Maybe, but then there's that added bit of "often", and luck of the draw starts to seem dubious.

Now I realize that some may be seeing this as a side rant that has nothing to do with the thread, but I would actually say it might be a big piece. There are a lot of posts in here piling on about what is agreeably awful behavior, and quite a bit more saying "if you just play this way everything will be groovy", but there is very little examination involved on the root causes of what inspires a otherwise pleasant person to become a pvp bully, or a group to take over a settlement to make it their own little play groups bubble. I have argued for years now that there is too little to compete over for level 30s outside of those two things, and I am not surprised it has deteriorated to where we are now in the least. If more people could say they were involved in "server defining moments", perhaps that's a good first step toward fixing that.

Whether I'm wrong or right, who knows, but if all that comes of this conversation is "This is bad don't do this" I can almost guarantee we will be having the same conversation in 9 months to a year because the same conditions that fostered that behavior now will still exist.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by AnselHoenheim » Fri May 20, 2022 4:25 pm

To be fair, we are all talking a lot about this situation, but the only key for the solution of all of this enormous snowball falls in the hands of the team, they know who are the people who causes the issues, they know what are they doing, and they have the power to cut the poisonous apple from the baskets, I think it's time to stop looking away and deal with the problem once and for all.

No more complacency, and no more second chances with people who plays around the rules for their own benefit, shadowing over the fun of their fellow companions that are trying to build a story alongside with them, and, which instead, are forced to leave the server they most love and appreciate, in complete frustration from a situation they can't see the end of a tunnel of a solution that, sometimes, they are promised.

So please, don't let Arelith die, it's bigger than anyone, or anybody that is playing in this server, Arelith don't deserve this.

That's my two cents, whoever understands this message, know what I am talking about.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Eira » Fri May 20, 2022 5:32 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 4:25 pm
Eira wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 3:18 pm
It is always interesting to see "meaningful" defined as involving DMs or (I am assuming this is meant by server defining) permanent server changes.
But I can also rattle off a list of equally awesome characters that have never been able to accomplish anything like that.

Well, yes. That was the point of my commentary on the used definition of "meaningful", thus the rest of my post.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by BurntGnome » Fri May 20, 2022 5:42 pm

I admin on a different RP based game. You will always have trouble in RP games where player vs player interactions happen because the mad doesnt stop when the game turns off for some people, and you get what you get here. However alot of this anger comes from a lack of transparency. This is why we do things the way we do them.
Player ban logs are always visible and public. The reason, time, and banning admin is listed, along with the type of ban and length.
Player logs are open on a delay, so you can see exactly what happened and how it happened, and what actions were taken by the administration at the time.
Appeals are done on a public forum, for all to see.
Ban requests are done on a public forum, for all to see.

Every step of administrating is open to be seen and questioned and admins are subjected to feedback via threads for each individual one, and admin removal requests are handled in the same way, anyone can start one, provide the logs and examples of bad behavior and those admins are held accountable. Even the admin chat on discord is time delayed on a relay so you know exactly what they are saying and doing, after 24 hours delay so theres no way to spin something as bad faith.

As it stands, Arelith does none of this. So ofcourse you will end up with rumors of favoritism, incorrect dm intervention, and people will end up with biased, incorrect train of events to follow that may not match up with reality. So long as this continues as it is, this will keep being an issue.

You will earn alot of faith from the players via a transparent administrative process. They will see when you are doing good, and see when you are doing bad, and give you actual, fact based feedback on it. They will see that the trouble players are actually being fairly dealt with, and that no, the DMs arent gangstalking you.

Now granted, my game is SS13, and continuity ends with the round and Arelith is ongoing, so the amount of logs you can provide and still have some protection to the narrative is limited, but releasing these logs on a week or two week delay would accomplish this fairly.

I understand some players want privacy, but I think for the greater good of the community, more transparency is going to do more for Arelith in general. The more the players understand the facts of whats going on, the less they will create ooc narratives that damage the community. This strikes me as a far better option than arbitrarily banning people, because that will create more of these ooc narratives and bad blood than anything else.
Last edited by BurntGnome on Fri May 20, 2022 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Edens_Fall » Fri May 20, 2022 5:44 pm

It really is a tough situation to address or find an answer to. Though several good ideas have been shared. From greater RPR gatekeeping, a fraction/settlement conflict system, "death to scry", or rule adjustments. I'm sure a blend of things can be used to help things.

Ultimately it will be the staff's choice, as they have the greater picture and details of what might have caused these events and how things are being abused to foster it.
Last edited by Edens_Fall on Fri May 20, 2022 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Skibbles » Fri May 20, 2022 6:18 pm

Transparency has nothing to do with anything but the very final choice made here the other day.

Everything from the beginning, to the middle, all the way up until the very end has been squarely within the hands of players interacting with other players. This is, after all, a thread about Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood.

Maybe there'd be some sense of cathartic closure for players deeply involved, to see whoever stringed up, tarred and feathered, or just given the Scarlet Letter, but to contend that is actually a healthy option that will reduce hostility totally seems bonkers to me.

We saw this already - like six or seven years ago - when the DM forum was hacked and all the 'transparency' came out, only to be sifted through and highlighted by a toxic horde of anons on 8chan (or whatever number I can't remember). It was grotesque, and a very black day.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Inordinate » Fri May 20, 2022 6:24 pm

BurntGnome wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 5:42 pm
Now granted, my game is SS13, and continuity ends with the round and Arelith is ongoing, so the amount of logs you can provide and still have some protection to the narrative is limited, but releasing these logs on a week or two week delay would accomplish this fairly.
being an admin on a SS13 community is WAY different from running the show in an environment like a PW on NWN, which leads to...

anyone asking for additional transparency has clearly never had actual experience managing a community like Arelith in an environment like a PW on NWN. Speaking from personal experience having worked in the largest private server community for World of Warcraft as a game master/community manager I can tell you that you're asking the team here to take on a thankless, soul-sucking fun-draining job that pays nothing and drains out motivation faster than any sort of bad feelings about lack of transparency will in a million years.

It's a non-starter conversation and the concessions the team would have to make to please the audience demanding it will never be worth it for longevity because it will never be enough. Move on from that subject and focus on things that are more realistic and reasonable
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by FallenDabus » Fri May 20, 2022 6:28 pm

Beyond what the staff has already been doing by stepping in when things escalate, I feel there are two aspects that exacerbate the issue - namely the levelling speed and the lack of varied late-game content.


In terms of levelling speed, my sense is that players being able to hit level thirty within a span of a month is an issue. On one hand this creates easily replaceable characters that hit thirty within the span of a month. For quite a few players they manage in only half that time. These characters often do not ease into the world during their journey from fledgling adventurers to masters of their art.

As a result, many new characters hit the late game at a breakneck pace (often as a group) and then get involved in roleplay fully levelled. In other words, they have very little ties to the current stories of a settlement / community until their sprint to level thirty is done.

I do not think it is all too surprising that a lot of these issues seem to revolve around new groups violently pushing out existing ones. There is less of a "Yes, and" mentality of adding to what stories are present. "Yes, and" roleplay is just far more likely if you are not immediately level 30 and can not simply bend your environment to your will by means of combat from the get-go. Instead of a new faction vying for power gradually rising in a settlement, it's kind just immediately there once a group managed to speed-run the arelith content.

The levelling speed imo is the lesser of the two contributing factors though.


I have to preface the next bit with that Arelith is wonderful in so, so many ways. The level of player freedom and the continuous dev work is absolutely terrific. I recently tried out a feylock, and the mechanics were so refreshing and engaging.

But, what I mean by "a lack of varied late-game content" is a lack of content not built around PvP and PvE mechanics. Development wise, Arelith does put a very dominant focus on the action element over the roleplay element.

So much work was put into the cleric updates. Not one of the new features for the sub-classes asked "what could we give them that would let players feel like they are a cleric and could use to build roleplay around?" and all it tried to answer "what would be cool, varied combat mechanics?".

What I am getting at its a bit of a "If all (or almost all) your tools are hammers, then everything looks like a nail" kind of deal. My sense is that quite a few of these conflicts tend to happen because folks are a bit bored and aimless at what to do at a late game, and PvP becomes this easy crux. Both in terms of making things exciting through challenging combat and being able to affect the world. Given a lot of players have experienced Arelith in a lot of ways over the years, I expect the easy crux is just more appealing.

I believe mechanics for mage guilds, druidic groves, religious sects, drow houses, and warlock covens that are not (primarily) centred around PvE / PvP would help. Let characters inhabit their societal role in the Forgotten Realms more by expanding the toolbox of the players. Both in terms of what they can do in day to day roleplay, helping faction leaders create events, but also for creating conflicts in more varied manners.

While the sailing system is a very poor example in terms of development scope, I think it's a good example of the types of mechanics I am getting at. Two years ago playing sailing crews was very much a "pretend" affair. You could not do a whole lot with it, and mostly it was background flavour. Now due to the mechanics AR built, it suddenly is a viable option for characters to inhabit and affect the world as sailors. Bored crews going at each other constantly in Sencliff or raiding Bendir Dale has taken a massive dip, because they actually have more things they can do and have more reason to cooperate from time to time.

If a conflict happens between Sencliff and settlement X, it is far less likely just because pirate players were bored by having nothing to do as pirate players. It is far more likely to have a gradual build up, a more interesting story behind it, and to not be received simply as "ffs, bored PvP griefers are at it again".


Two other, much smaller examples are the Fools Clover playhouse and the dice tables.

The Fools Clover is great because it gives the tools to "actor" characters to create these type of events with all those SFX and VFX levers they can use in the theathre, where as the Guldorand theatre is a pain in the Snuggybear because you need to ask a DM to remove NPCs from stage and you got none of those tools. Its such a pity, as the area itself looks great.

The dice tables in Sencliff and the Lighthouse Tavern were an easy tool to host social events centred around gambling, with players inventing new dice games. They have been broken for months now, and as a result, regular events in both of those places have been none-existent. It was a great way to be inclusive towards new characters, as they could get to know older characters at the Sencliff or Guld, in a casual, fun manner. That is a real loss.

We could "pretend" to throw dice like we could "pretend" to do a druidic ritual to bless the land, but it is not quite the same. Just as I doubt we'd see so much fishing roleplay happen, if there were no mechanics to support it.

In both of these cases its just small tools, but inspired players really make fantastic use of them. I'd expect this also to be the case with tools that would allow characters to inhabit more of the role of druids, clerics, mages, etc.

Just as new build mechanics help keep things fresh and excite players about trying something new and different, do I think rp mechanics would help to freshen things up and inspire folks to want to create new stories with others.
Natasha Dryby ~ Songstress of the Sea!
Shaelin Durothil ~ Divine Seeker of Sehanine (retired)
Yowyn ~ Svirfneblin Druidess (retired)

Maelwys
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue May 14, 2019 10:10 pm

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Maelwys » Sat May 21, 2022 12:05 am

Memes at its finest wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 8:38 pm
A better idea, lets not allow characters to last more than 1-2 RL years. A lot of people I know are worried to go back to an area they enjoy rping in years later because the character they last played there (lets say 4 characters ago) had conflict with the character who has been in that area for literal 6+ years. Characters lasting for this long just reinforces an idea that people are OOCly hostile to you when they return on a different character years later. I know this for a fact because I just spoke with a friend who was worried about playing in an area despite being gone from it for over 2-3 years.

Just to prove that this plays a key part in Arelith toxicity oocly, look at the Underdark. While I won’t name anyone, once a group was removed through IG means, a lot more people came back to the Underdark server, so many that I would get tells saying how they were so happy X characters were gone due to how they had a grasp on the server and nobody felt they could offer a breath of fresh air.
I feel like this deserves more attention. I've played on-and-off for some years and seeing the same players at large events makes the world feel like Star Wars (in a bad way) where the same handful of people show up to solve problems time and time again.

Also, I hadn't seen it before but Scurvy's post that was mentioned on page 7 is really worth a read.

UilliamNebel
Posts: 198
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:12 am

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by UilliamNebel » Sat May 21, 2022 2:14 am

Maelwys wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 12:05 am
Memes at its finest wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 8:38 pm
A better idea, lets not allow characters to last more than 1-2 RL years. A lot of people I know are worried to go back to an area they enjoy rping in years later because the character they last played there (lets say 4 characters ago) had conflict with the character who has been in that area for literal 6+ years. Characters lasting for this long just reinforces an idea that people are OOCly hostile to you when they return on a different character years later. I know this for a fact because I just spoke with a friend who was worried about playing in an area despite being gone from it for over 2-3 years.

Just to prove that this plays a key part in Arelith toxicity oocly, look at the Underdark. While I won’t name anyone, once a group was removed through IG means, a lot more people came back to the Underdark server, so many that I would get tells saying how they were so happy X characters were gone due to how they had a grasp on the server and nobody felt they could offer a breath of fresh air.
I feel like this deserves more attention. I've played on-and-off for some years and seeing the same players at large events makes the world feel like Star Wars (in a bad way) where the same handful of people show up to solve problems time and time again.

Also, I hadn't seen it before but Scurvy's post that was mentioned on page 7 is really worth a read.
I don't see how these points can manifest as valid. Know quite a lot of long term characters. Specific players, perhaps, with long term characters. But even then, it seems more a call for equity for its own sake, not greater fairness. A longer term character, same power potential wise as a one month level thirty, has invested time and developed social contacts and status, that isn't unfair, it is a consequence of their efforts over time.

gryggrstrkssontreelover
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:52 pm

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by gryggrstrkssontreelover » Sat May 21, 2022 3:03 am

UilliamNebel wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 2:14 am
Maelwys wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 12:05 am
Memes at its finest wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 8:38 pm
A better idea, lets not allow characters to last more than 1-2 RL years. A lot of people I know are worried to go back to an area they enjoy rping in years later because the character they last played there (lets say 4 characters ago) had conflict with the character who has been in that area for literal 6+ years. Characters lasting for this long just reinforces an idea that people are OOCly hostile to you when they return on a different character years later. I know this for a fact because I just spoke with a friend who was worried about playing in an area despite being gone from it for over 2-3 years.

Just to prove that this plays a key part in Arelith toxicity oocly, look at the Underdark. While I won’t name anyone, once a group was removed through IG means, a lot more people came back to the Underdark server, so many that I would get tells saying how they were so happy X characters were gone due to how they had a grasp on the server and nobody felt they could offer a breath of fresh air.
I feel like this deserves more attention. I've played on-and-off for some years and seeing the same players at large events makes the world feel like Star Wars (in a bad way) where the same handful of people show up to solve problems time and time again.

Also, I hadn't seen it before but Scurvy's post that was mentioned on page 7 is really worth a read.
I don't see how these points can manifest as valid. Know quite a lot of long term characters. Specific players, perhaps, with long term characters. But even then, it seems more a call for equity for its own sake, not greater fairness. A longer term character, same power potential wise as a one month level thirty, has invested time and developed social contacts and status, that isn't unfair, it is a consequence of their efforts over time.
I think your post is precisely their points. There exists long-standing characters that have existed for years and are for the most part stagnant in nature. They have long-since created their social networks, both friends and foes, and cemented their status in-game. It is not particularly surprising that a player who frequently develops new characters, or a player who is disappointed by the mostly unchanging nature of certain areas would bring this up as an issue. You can do everything you could want to do on a single character within the bounds of a year. If you want to continue the character's legacy, why not introduce a child or relative to carry on their legacy with a fresher and different perspective? I understand that players are hesitant to give up on characters they grow attached to, but what I appreciate most of all in Arelith is the dynamic nature of the game. If people refused to ever roll their characters, the game would grow very boring.
- Mr. Treelover

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