Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

[-XXX-]

IMO it's good form to allow characters to escape if they make it to the transition.
Similarly do not come back to reengage when it becomes apparent that the enemies have broken off their pursuit.

Ofc. this hardly applies to every situation, just something to consider here and then.

[Morgy]

Transition camping is basically PvP in bad form. Anything to prevent transition camping will have some (albeit hopefully minor) effects on PvP.

Transition camping is definitely bad form.

But so is transitioning to full heal with full immunity. Repeatedly.

Don't sit at transitions waiting for somebody, find somewhere else to ambush them so they actually have a chance to fairly react and not give them a chance to prepare.

As for "repeated" transitioning, they can't transition back for a period after their immunity ends. And even if they do try to repeatedly transition... after the initial immunity and the transition timer cooldown expires, each transition will not grant them immunity for over 20s. At that point, not only are they not immune when they transition, but they also can't transition back at all. Basically making them a sitting duck for trying to transition abuse.

This was a great solution, imo!

[Kaeldre]

As for "repeated" transitioning, they can't transition back for a period after their immunity ends. And even if they do try to repeatedly transition... after the initial immunity and the transition timer cooldown expires, each transition will not grant them immunity for over 20s. At that point, not only are they not immune when they transition, but they also can't transition back at all. Basically making them a sitting duck for trying to transition abuse.

You would be right if that is how it was used. However, that is not the case.

You transition once, then you heal for 300-450 hit points and continue combat for 20 seconds. Only then do you repeat.

The solution prevents one abuse and allows another. If you consider this fair play then I suppose we must endorse it.

[Hoodoo]

As for "repeated" transitioning, they can't transition back for a period after their immunity ends. And even if they do try to repeatedly transition... after the initial immunity and the transition timer cooldown expires, each transition will not grant them immunity for over 20s. At that point, not only are they not immune when they transition, but they also can't transition back at all. Basically making them a sitting duck for trying to transition abuse.

You would be right if that is how it was used. However, that is not the case.

You transition once, then you heal for 300-450 hit points and continue combat for 20 seconds. Only then do you repeat.

The solution prevents one abuse and allows another. If you consider this fair play then I suppose we must endorse it.

Well preventing transition during combat would probably be a good idea in this instance, I'll look into it. Thanks.

Also this goes without saying but, this kind of transition abuse is against the rules. So if you do see it happening, report it.

[Kaeldre]

That is good to hear, will keep an eye out.

[xanrael]

As for "repeated" transitioning, they can't transition back for a period after their immunity ends. And even if they do try to repeatedly transition... after the initial immunity and the transition timer cooldown expires, each transition will not grant them immunity for over 20s. At that point, not only are they not immune when they transition, but they also can't transition back at all. Basically making them a sitting duck for trying to transition abuse.

You would be right if that is how it was used. However, that is not the case.

You transition once, then you heal for 300-450 hit points and continue combat for 20 seconds. Only then do you repeat.

The solution prevents one abuse and allows another. If you consider this fair play then I suppose we must endorse it.

Well preventing transition during combat would probably be a good idea in this instance, I'll look into it. Thanks.

Also this goes without saying but, this kind of transition abuse is against the rules. So if you do see it happening, report it.

Probably wouldn't want to make it block all transitions only because you're in combat as I think that would open up another can of worms with all sorts of unintended consequences.

Two potential solutions:
1. Just handle it the Eve Online way as this is already somewhat close. As soon as the server detects movement, starting to cast, or item activation the invulnerability period immediately ends, otherwise it goes for the full duration.

2. Store the last 1-2 areaIDs transitioned and then a combatFlag. With the right conditionals you could prevent someone from bouncing between the same zone line while in combat but someone could continue to flee through multiple different zones trying to escape combat.

[Irongron]

It is not fun to ressurect an old topic, especially one such as this, but sadly, I feel I have to.

Why?

Well, the update to transition camping did help solve that one particular apsect of this problem, but sadly, not all. If anything the 'Bad Blood' (See topic title) has only been amplified.

I could wax lyrical about this topic all day, and will likely hold a player or Discord meeting at some point soon so we can discuss it all more informally, but for the meantime, one of these interminable forum posts from me will have to suffice.

The divisions that led to this original topic, which at the time I did try to address, have continued, not between characters, but, more worryingly, between players. Opposed factions, both in and out of game, regularly slugging it out (again in both), sharing rumours and generally getting protective or upset. I've had a great many complaints, often from players as they on their way out of the door entirely - the game having just become too stressful to play.

I mean, to break my normal formality for a moment - What the hell?! Is it really too much to expect players to actual play nicely together? To think well of each other, to make this community something to actually be proud of rather than being the caveat with which to follow the generally positive reviews Arelith receives

"Arelith is a great server, but the community..."

That being said I'm going to revert to my optimistic, and possibly naive self, I still really admire our broader community, and am still proud of it. I know most don't care at all for this drama, but still...it is has been impacting everyone.

It's also hard for DMs to deal with it, when problems get this large. For many some servers or settlements have become entirely no-go areas, fiefdoms of factions that make no bones about just who and who isn't welcome, and will take lethal measures to maintain their grip on power.

And DMs are players, the truth is? Avoiding bias is impossible, almost everyone has a horse in this race, almost everyone has their own echo chamber, and will swallow a different narrative as to just what (and who) is causing the problem in the first place. Our DM staff really do try their best, do their best to talk everything out, but almost all have contacted me privately at some point in the last few weeks to tell me they are withdrawing from a particular case as they don't feel they can approach it fairly, being involved player side.

So then, of course, it comes to me. And I would REALLY much prefer to be doing almost anything else with my time.

I considered the nuclear option of adding a PvP counter, where players would lose voting rights, RPR, and eventually a forced life counter if the value reached too high.

I also considered adding a 'Special Measures' tiers for certain players, where DMs could vote on problematic players by CD key when complaints got too high, each tier bringing with it a certain restriction.

And then, of course, there is the option of just changing server rules, because the only reason the above were being considered is that a lot of what we're seeing, a lot of what has been leading to this, does NOT involve rule breaks. Indeed many of players involved can be entirely pleasant.

Well, for now I've opted for a lesser approach, but one that still leaves me deeply uncomfortable, as it will involve removing some players, who frankly, have neither broken rules, nor been abusive in any OOC channels. I've done it before, but only where individuals have just been causing too much general damage to the larger community, the subject of too many complaints, and sadly, the subject of just too many rumours - because a lot of the quiet accusations whispered behind closed Discord doors, have very little basis in fact.

Yet, despite how uncomfortable it makes me feel I have to do this, because rewriting the rules, introducing restrictive new measures, due the actions of a few, is essentially an illogical and far more damaging move. But I'm also not going to sweep it under the carpet, but put it out there, here and now.

This is what is happening, and I'm trying to be as objective as I can under the circumstances, and that our DM team has in no way been involved in those decisions - DMs do not get to ban people without concrete and documented rule breaks, because that would be awful.

Going forward though, I really hope we can, somehow, get back to where we were. Where our community was something to be proud of. So I'm going to to list a few issues now; things we can do to make the community better, and sadly, things I will ask DMs to be on the look out for in future.

1. Beware of Crossing Streams (or how to play alts responsibly).

We all enjoy having power and influence, being on the inside track of our settlement or chosen corner of the server. Having a controlling stake. Please, if you are playing this way, do so ONLY IN ONE CHARACTER. Being one of the main decision makers in Guldorand and using an alt to do the same in Andunor on another charcter is, well, control freakery, frankly. You have your place to wear the big hat, don't use alts to try and control the narrative elsewhere.

This is doubly true with PvP. If you are player that lists murder as one of their hobbies, pick a side. Don't be that guy that kills another player on surface, and then when they start playing down below using another alt to kill them again. It's profoundly lame and possibly the number one factor in making this server feel like it is run by a cabal of toxic elites.

2. Give others their space to play (or when to stay your blade)

Arelith is MASSIVE, I mean HUGE. When you were at school did the teachers ever tell feuding children to play at other ends of the school yard? You can do the same. Sure, IC you might have every reason to want to murder Banites, opposing creeds or schisms within the faith. But pursuing one's IC motivation can easily turn into bullying. Let them get on with it. Do not make it your raison d'etre to kill off another group's RP. By all means have the occassional conflict, either through RP and PVP, but don't log in each day with an eye to confrontation.

Arelith is about players writing narratives and creating stories based upon a particular theme. Stop trying to strangle the baby in its crib.

3. PLEASE, stop using Discord to talk crap about other players.

Most of the time this is untrue, or at least highly subjective. The great newsflash here is that almost everyone who plays here are perfectly nice people, but doing this, where a community turns into a toxic popularity contest. Most times when a player bullies another in game, they do it because they think they're being protective, they believe that the actions and words of another have made this action entirely justified. This is either because of something they have been told, or quite often, because someone has shown them a screenshot of an actual discord conversation, where one player has been foul about another.

I mean, it's just not a good way to be, as a person, so stop it.

Finally, I know that long forum posts to address issues is both outdated, and easily ignored. It can also come across as more than a little arrogant. I'm going to consider other ways to connect with the players again, and DM Straw Hat had an idea that players themselves could possibily suggest some community building ideas. I'd love to hear them. Possibly by humanizing one another we may see less of this toxicity in future.

I live in hope.

[Mike_mohawk]

Kudos IG. Thank you.

[Arienette]

Irongron,

Thank you for addressing this openly.

While I am sure it was a hard decision to make, this seems to me to fall in line with the general server attitude towards the rules in general. Which is basically “the rules are not here to be strictly obeyed to give one a license to do whatever you want that is technically not against the rules. Please be nice.”

From what you have shared with us, it sounds to me like you are simply following that principle.

It is disturbing that the first reply to IGs post is pointing fingers at “OOC cabals”.

[Aradin]

As someone reading this post unsure about what nebulous situation it's referring to (my Arelith experience has been and continues to be lovely) I don't have much context to offer advice and I hope this doesn't come across as naive. If the problem is certain players obeying the letter of the law but not the spirit, and if those players are "entirely pleasant", as you say, then they sound like sorts that you could take a minute to talk to and explain why their poor sportsmanship is causing stress to other players. I get the notion of having to use the banhammer on toxic players that purposefully skirt the rules, but if the ones in question are reasonable folks and just interpreting the spirit of the rules wrong, sounds like it could be corrected with some direct communication. The problem with blanket announcement statements like this is that they can be easily ignored, or interpreted as "Oh that applies to the OTHER side - not to me. I'm one of the good ones."

If you have DMs withdrawing from making judgments because they're too close to the issue, then you clearly already know who these problematic players are and I suspect could get in contact with them. As a player I know I'd appreciate the honest effort to reach out instead of communication-less punishment. Or I might choose to leave of my own volition after learning that the way I want to play isn't welcome and another server would suit me better. Either outcome is better than getting banned without having broken any rules.

[HeyLadyOfDecay]

Okay, Uhm, Just my opinion. Don't squash me for it..

Give people space for their little communities/guilds, Arelith has been moving towards mass hubs. Andunor, Cordor, Guldorand (though this one failed I think, And have so many thoughts on why)

What I think we need is more like the old days, Like Myon still mostly is, But like the Arcane tower, Benwick, Westcliff and Wharftown was: Player controlled communities that can, if needed be completely avoided.

As for Andunor:

Melt the hub with Saltspar and Make Andunor Drow only 3 districts, Lock all ships with Saltspart, Greyport becomes it's own settlement seperated from Andunor and the "beast bloods" gain their own caves.

Because what I noticed, Dealing with the UD, is there is a lot of ooc stress being pushed into one city. And when it comes to being a UD character, The server isn't that big.

Okay, As for players.

Lot of might makes right, Power in number etc.

Don't forget there is a "mark of despair" to be used. People who get reported to PVP to much should get one before being spanked.

Speed leveling a pvp character.. issue, No idea how to solve, But I notice at times a guild suddenly appears out of no where becomming strong amazingly quick and suddenly decide the narrative of a place.

Gang up. Any over 3 vs 1 pvp should be something that can be reported and illegal tbh.

Eh, So far my mind.

[msterswrdsmn]

So, something similar to this happened once on a smaller Arelith-offshoot server some of us played on like, 10 years ago. I forgot the name of the server, but it was a small, heavily dm-driven server.

A few issues came up with asserting authority, looting, etc. The devs at the time began trying to come up with ways to address it mechanically. I vaguely remember counters, in-game guard summoning in towns when hostile actions occurred, and yes, straight up banning people or dropping them levels came up as well.

In the end, it was suggested "hey, maybe just....sit down and talk with the players oocly, one-on-one, about how they're being overly-disruptive and what can be done to improve?"

This worked.

That said, i have only the vaguest of ideas as to what this particular issue is refering to, so take this with a grain of salt.

[gryggrstrkssontreelover]

Irongron,

Thank you for addressing this openly.

While I am sure it was a hard decision to make, this seems to me to fall in line with the general server attitude towards the rules in general. Which is basically “the rules are not here to be strictly obeyed to give one a license to do whatever you want that is technically not against the rules. Please be nice.”

From what you have shared with us, it sounds to me like you are simply following that principle.

It is disturbing that the first reply to IGs post is pointing fingers at “OOC cabals”.

I agree that my reply should be disturbing but I believe if you would please re-read Irongron's own post you will understand why it should be disturbing.

1. Beware of Crossing Streams (or how to play alts responsibly).

We all enjoy having power and influence, being on the inside track of our settlement or chosen corner of the server. Having a controlling stake. Please, if you are playing this way, do so ONLY IN ONE CHARACTER. Being one of the main decision makers in Guldorand and using an alt to do the same in Andunor on another charcter is, well, control freakery, frankly. You have your place to wear the big hat, don't use alts to try and control the narrative elsewhere.

This is doubly true with PvP. If you are player that lists murder as one of their hobbies, pick a side. Don't be that guy that kills another player on surface, and then when they start playing down below using another alt to kill them again. It's profoundly lame and possibly the number one factor in making this server feel like it is run by a cabal of toxic elites.

3. PLEASE, stop using Discord to talk crap about other players.

The admission Irongron makes in addressing the server feeling like it is run by a cabal of toxic elites is because there are out-of-character actors who are bringing out-of-character vitriol into the server through their in-game characters. He states this very clearly.

Well, for now I've opted for a lesser approach, but one that still leaves me deeply uncomfortable, as it will involve removing some players, who frankly, have neither broken rules, nor been abusive in any OOC channels. I've done it before, but only where individuals have just been causing too much general damage to the larger community, the subject of too many complaints, and sadly, the subject of just too many rumours - because a lot of the quiet accusations whispered behind closed Discord doors, have very little basis in fact.

Frankly, this is a failing of the community in which they have muddled the lines between OOC and IC to such an egregious extent that the only solution at the height of this negativity is the removal of the victims of these OOC accusations to avoid both the complaints of these complainers and a potentially larger exodus than the individuals singled out for banning. The people who feel that this post has been addressed to should reflect upon their conduct and the poor effects it has had on the health of character roleplaying in this server.

[HeyLadyOfDecay]

Well, for now I've opted for a lesser approach, but one that still leaves me deeply uncomfortable, as it will involve removing some players, who frankly, have neither broken rules, nor been abusive in any OOC channels. I've done it before, but only where individuals have just been causing too much general damage to the larger community, the subject of too many complaints, and sadly, the subject of just too many rumours - because a lot of the quiet accusations whispered behind closed Discord doors, have very little basis in fact

Frankly, this is a failing of the community in which they have muddled the lines between OOC and IC to such an egregious extent that the only solution at the height of this negativity is the removal of the victims of these OOC accusations to avoid both the complaints of these complainers and a potentially larger exodus than the individuals singled out for banning. The people who feel that this post has been addressed to should reflect upon their conduct and the poor effects it has had on the health of character roleplaying in this server.

It's better to just give them a clear slate, Delete character, new login, Encourage to avoid past people, locations, before actually removing the player.

Yes, I sock at quotes.

[Mike_mohawk]

Mister Treelover. You make it seem like the people who have been the target of this troublesome behaviour, the people who have reported socially unhealthy behaviour, mental anguish are doing so without any basis in rules.
You paint them out to be a secret cabal of bad faith actors who runs arelith.

And you also hint at, that some of the people who have been removed was trying to remove this cabal.

Let's take a step back here.
The people who have reported anguish and experiences of their fellow players not playing nice. Should be listened to. Even if their perceived experiences don't reflect reality.

The people who have been reported(or removed) aren't underdog heroes. At best they are people who have been the victim of misinformation and a lack of communication between players.

There's a collapse of trust and communication. We are all players who should be able to cooperatively figure these things out. We need to trust eachother.
Grandstanding or saying one side was wrong doesn't help. Listen. Listening helps.

Also saying there are "cabals" is conspiratorial and the exact line of thinking that inspires a "us vs them".

Sorry if this isn't as coherent as it could be. I'm on my phone.

[miesny_jez]

I wonder about this Irongron:

3. PLEASE, stop using Discord to talk crap about other players.

With all due respect Irongron but maybe it is so because the transparency of DM policing is None to the players?

If we fill in a report and send it over to the DM we don't get any information what kind of action has been taken or if anything had been done about it?

We don't have an outlet to point fingers at people, we don't have a way to show as groups that there is something wrong with how people are behaving or playing and in many previous situations I had been the said players when approached directly about the issue were ignoring it or rebuffing it without trying to understand the other side points.

The only thing which we can do is fill a report - and don't get any feedback what has happened after it OR talk between each other in our discord groups and generate foul blood rumors based on our own subjective view of the issues - which is well what is happening.

Let's say if as a group we see a coordinated action against us from multiple others, but we can't spy it through IC methods (spy, scry) that leads to the suspicion of others to communicate OOC in clique.. if we fill in a report then we don't get any feedback from DMs as that's the policy it leads to brewing of rumors and bitter feelings which will result in players shit talking on discord.

If we have an IC conflict with a character that repeatedly attacks and kills our weaker members despite being IC beaten on few occasions.. which should prompt for his IC stance change, we fill in a report to DMs but we don't get any feedback back which leaves us again only with the ability to talk to others in our discord groups.

Ok..maybe a stupid idea.. but what if we would have a forum/discord space that would allow people to well write down about others behaviour and why they didn't like that, after approval of a DM and their finished investigation in the matter?

Not a ban to the problematic players, but a place to tell others how was it wrong what the offending player did, maybe seeing your name mentioned in an open space like that could change the behavior of said people, maybe it would warn others about them without the need of generating biased and subjective-based foul talk.

[Amateur Hour]

Ok..maybe a stupid idea.. but what if we would have a forum/discord space that would allow people to well write down about others behaviour and why they didn't like that, after approval of a DM and their finished investigation in the matter?

Not a ban to the problematic players, but a place to tell others how was it wrong what the offending player did, maybe seeing your name mentioned in an open space like that could change the behavior of said people, maybe it would warn others about them without the need of generating biased and subjective-based foul talk.

I feel like the only thing this would do is engender bad blood. It's one thing if the DMs talk to a player about what the player has done wrong based on the content of reports--and I don't think it'd be a bad thing if DMs talked to players more often about behavior that isn't rule-breaking but is causing a lot of OOC angst, so situations where rule-abiding players have to be removed because the angst has escalated out of control can be avoided--but when other players are given the official seal of approval to publicly shame someone, it's going to leave a bad taste in other people's mouths.

[HeyLadyOfDecay]

I wonder about this Irongron:

3. PLEASE, stop using Discord to talk crap about other players.

With all due respect Irongron but maybe it is so because the transparency of DM policing is None to the players?

If we fill in a report and send it over to the DM we don't get any information what kind of action has been taken or if anything had been done about it?

We don't have an outlet to point fingers at people, we don't have a way to show as groups that there is something wrong with how people are behaving or playing and in many previous situations I had been the said players when approached directly about the issue were ignoring it or rebuffing it without trying to understand the other side points.

The only thing which we can do is fill a report - and don't get any feedback what has happened after it OR talk between each other in our discord groups and generate foul blood rumors based on our own subjective view of the issues - which is well what is happening.

Let's say if as a group we see a coordinated action against us from multiple others, but we can't spy it through IC methods (spy, scry) that leads to the suspicion of others to communicate OOC in clique.. if we fill in a report then we don't get any feedback from DMs as that's the policy it leads to brewing of rumors and bitter feelings which will result in players shit talking on discord.

If we have an IC conflict with a character that repeatedly attacks and kills our weaker members despite being IC beaten on few occasions.. which should prompt for his IC stance change, we fill in a report to DMs but we don't get any feedback back which leaves us again only with the ability to talk to others in our discord groups.

Ok..maybe a stupid idea.. but what if we would have a forum/discord space that would allow people to well write down about others behaviour and why they didn't like that, after approval of a DM and their finished investigation in the matter?

Not a ban to the problematic players, but a place to tell others how was it wrong what the offending player did, maybe seeing your name mentioned in an open space like that could change the behavior of said people, maybe it would warn others about them without the need of generating biased and subjective-based foul talk.

Bit of a privacy of the player thing.

If they release the result then everyone knows about it soon enough.

on the other hand, They leave the "victim" with a lot of stress.

There needs to be a middle ground, Because this stuff is a major rumor maker.

"Nothing happend, They are DM protected"
"Do you think they are a DM?"
"Bet they are Arelith supporters"

Etc.

By the way, This point was brought up as much as toxic players in reviews.

[gryggrstrkssontreelover]

Mister Treelover. You make it seem like the people who have been the target of this troublesome behaviour, the people who have reported socially unhealthy behaviour, mental anguish are doing so without any basis in rules.
You paint them out to be a secret cabal of bad faith actors who runs arelith.

And you also hint at, that some of the people who have been removed was trying to remove this cabal.

Let's take a step back here.
The people who have reported anguish and experiences of their fellow players not playing nice. Should be listened to. Even if their perceived experiences don't reflect reality.

The people who have been reported(or removed) aren't underdog heroes. At best they are people who have been the victim of misinformation and a lack of communication between players.

There's a collapse of trust and communication. We are all players who should be able to cooperatively figure these things out. We need to trust eachother.
Grandstanding or saying one side was wrong doesn't help. Listen. Listening helps.

Also saying there are "cabals" is conspiratorial and the exact line of thinking that inspires a "us vs them".

Sorry if this isn't as coherent as it could be. I'm on my phone.

I believe you have unintentionally misinterpreted my post. I have not implied anything, everything is said expressly. My post is not directed towards people who submit a report. My post is directed towards clique-ish OOC rumour-mongers who effectively refuse to distinguish a person between their OOC and IC character and have functionally sabotaged good faith character roleplay. You are correct in saying players should be cooperative and trust each other enough to handle matters in-game. Unfortunately, that is not the case, it is clear people have refused to cooperate or listen to each other for things to have gotten this bad. Irongron's post is, intentionally or not, an endorsement of OOC action rather than IC resolution.

[miesny_jez]

But is having a hidden subjective based rumor shit talking behind closed discords better then?

I am saying here that it would be a legalized name-shame yep it would be, but only after a DM would verify it from an objective side.

Maybe it is a stupid idea but I don't think the current situation works if Irongron has to remove players out from the servers due to the circulating rumors.

[Rowlind Salem]

If someone is finding grey areas to make people's lives difficult then they're operating in bad faith. I would recommend a one-time mandatory sit down with server leadership to serve as a counseling session and a warning.

As far as addressing discipline issues it might be a good idea to publicize punishments while masking the recipients of said punishments.

"A player has received a two month suspension for violation of rule x"

If the punishments for bad behavior are publicized, it shows the community that enforcement of the rules is happening.
----

For the community, less discord is more fun. At least in my experience lol.

[Aradin]

I am saying here that it would be a legalized name-shame yep it would be, but only after a DM would verify it from an objective side.

I agree that it would be nice to get private follow-ups on DM reports for the sake of knowing some kind of action was taken - one way or the other - but I think it should be kept private between the affected parties. A public space expressly made so players can point fingers and yell at each other, particularly one endorsed and literally run by the staff of the server, is fully the kind of toxic thing that would make me not want to be part of the community.

[TooManyPotatoes]

I very much appreciate the maturity you are approaching this with Irongron, but I think you are being too hard on yourself over having to take this decision. I think all 3 of the points you bring up are more than reasonable and common sense.

While you say no rules or breaches of niceties occurred in this recent case, I don’t believe that really does the situation justice. On some level there was considerable irresponsibility on the part of a number of players that led to what happened. I don’t want to get too much into specifics, but I do want to propose that as well as a “be nice” rule, you might want to consider a rule of “being responsible”. So much of this was avoidable and didn’t need to get out of hand so quickly.

Regardless, I want to sincerely thank you and the DM team for taking this tough decision. I realise it all must leave a bitter taste.

[Paint]

I'm going to throw my two cents here, even though I might regret it, but a considerable irritant that's come up for me in recent that's made it difficult to want to contribute to the community in Arelith is a consistent problem that's come up:

Factions that are intertwined with settlements and PVP. For obvious reasons, I'm not going to point at specific factions, nor specific settlements, but I've noticed the problem I'm going to describe here across multiple surface settlements and factions;

This is the basic outline -- a settlement sponsored faction attacks members of another settlement sponsored faction somewhere else. For the purposes of this argument, the legitimacy of the IC reasoning for the PVP doesn't really matter. What does matter is what follows: Outrage occurs. The slighted settlement whips up into a frenzy and attempts to enforce the legitimacy of its authority. Actions should, after all, have consequences. However, rather than let two surface settlements go into full-on war, which could be incredibly taxing for a lot of the playerbase, efforts for de-escalation usually occur. I've seen NPCs enforce laws multiple times and give big threats to all settlements involved to try to keep them from pursuing war. And...

I'm not saying this is a bad thing? The last thing we need are low-level characters getting shanked in random maps because they have the wrong affiliation. But I don't like it. It sort of takes away from the whole, 'Your actions have consequences,' style of RPing that I really enjoy Arelith for. When you know that you can aggress against another faction, and it'll never come back to bite you, if you're a PVP-enthusiastic faction allied with the current government of a settlement, there's absolutely no reason you can't go around breaking the laws and disrespecting the authority of other settlements if you please. You just have to stop when the heat's on, wait for it to die down, then rinse and repeat. When a settlement attempts to put pressure on the settlement your faction is allied to, it'll just go through the same cycle of talks of escalation, then swift de-escalation.

It is legitimately one of the things that I hate about Arelith.

Worse yet, it encourages talk about double-standards within the community. Arelith's lack of transparency in moderation doesn't make this easier -- but I actually agree with that lack of transparency whole-heartedly, because I'd rather not make punishment an exhibition and encourage further divides in the community.

But to get to my point, in almost every case, the aggressing settlement-aligned faction eventually has some rumor of DM favoritism spread about them. People roll. People quit. People take breaks. I've done it twice. I just don't want to pretend I'm part of a settlement that has any legitimate authority over anything if it can't enforce that authority when things get bad. You don't feel like you can protect people. You don't feel like you can roleplay someone who can protect people. It begins to feel like a waste of time and effort to try to play that role in the first place. And for members of the community, you end up feeling like the settlement leadership are limp and toothless. Losing can be fun, but losing all the time by default before you have a chance to act because your settlement-aligned factions aren't aggressive is not fun. It will never be fun.

I don't really know what the solution to this problem I perceive is, or if anyone else even knows what the heck I'm talking about, but we're on the subject, and it's been one of the things keeping me from putting my time and effort into Arelith. I know another event like that is just around the corner. And when it happens, I'll be just as disappointed by how it resolves as the last time.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

It is not fun to ressurect an old topic, especially one such as this, but sadly, I feel I have to.

Why?

Well, the update to transition camping did help solve that one particular apsect of this problem, but sadly, not all. If anything the 'Bad Blood' (See topic title) has only been amplified.

I could wax lyrical about this topic all day, and will likely hold a player or Discord meeting at some point soon so we can discuss it all more informally, but for the meantime, one of these interminable forum posts from me will have to suffice.

The divisions that led to this original topic, which at the time I did try to address, have continued, not between characters, but, more worryingly, between players. Opposed factions, both in and out of game, regularly slugging it out (again in both), sharing rumours and generally getting protective or upset. I've had a great many complaints, often from players as they on their way out of the door entirely - the game having just become too stressful to play.

I mean, to break my normal formality for a moment - What the hell?! Is it really too much to expect players to actual play nicely together? To think well of each other, to make this community something to actually be proud of rather than being the caveat with which to follow the generally positive reviews Arelith receives

"Arelith is a great server, but the community..."

That being said I'm going to revert to my optimistic, and possibly naive self, I still really admire our broader community, and am still proud of it. I know most don't care at all for this drama, but still...it is has been impacting everyone.

It's also hard for DMs to deal with it, when problems get this large. For many some servers or settlements have become entirely no-go areas, fiefdoms of factions that make no bones about just who and who isn't welcome, and will take lethal measures to maintain their grip on power.

And DMs are players, the truth is? Avoiding bias is impossible, almost everyone has a horse in this race, almost everyone has their own echo chamber, and will swallow a different narrative as to just what (and who) is causing the problem in the first place. Our DM staff really do try their best, do their best to talk everything out, but almost all have contacted me privately at some point in the last few weeks to tell me they are withdrawing from a particular case as they don't feel they can approach it fairly, being involved player side.

So then, of course, it comes to me. And I would REALLY much prefer to be doing almost anything else with my time.

I considered the nuclear option of adding a PvP counter, where players would lose voting rights, RPR, and eventually a forced life counter if the value reached too high.

I also considered adding a 'Special Measures' tiers for certain players, where DMs could vote on problematic players by CD key when complaints got too high, each tier bringing with it a certain restriction.

And then, of course, there is the option of just changing server rules, because the only reason the above were being considered is that a lot of what we're seeing, a lot of what has been leading to this, does NOT involve rule breaks. Indeed many of players involved can be entirely pleasant.

Well, for now I've opted for a lesser approach, but one that still leaves me deeply uncomfortable, as it will involve removing some players, who frankly, have neither broken rules, nor been abusive in any OOC channels. I've done it before, but only where individuals have just been causing too much general damage to the larger community, the subject of too many complaints, and sadly, the subject of just too many rumours - because a lot of the quiet accusations whispered behind closed Discord doors, have very little basis in fact.

Yet, despite how uncomfortable it makes me feel I have to do this, because rewriting the rules, introducing restrictive new measures, due the actions of a few, is essentially an illogical and far more damaging move. But I'm also not going to sweep it under the carpet, but put it out there, here and now.

This is what is happening, and I'm trying to be as objective as I can under the circumstances, and that our DM team has in no way been involved in those decisions - DMs do not get to ban people without concrete and documented rule breaks, because that would be awful.

Going forward though, I really hope we can, somehow, get back to where we were. Where our community was something to be proud of. So I'm going to to list a few issues now; things we can do to make the community better, and sadly, things I will ask DMs to be on the look out for in future.

1. Beware of Crossing Streams (or how to play alts responsibly).

We all enjoy having power and influence, being on the inside track of our settlement or chosen corner of the server. Having a controlling stake. Please, if you are playing this way, do so ONLY IN ONE CHARACTER. Being one of the main decision makers in Guldorand and using an alt to do the same in Andunor on another charcter is, well, control freakery, frankly. You have your place to wear the big hat, don't use alts to try and control the narrative elsewhere.

This is doubly true with PvP. If you are player that lists murder as one of their hobbies, pick a side. Don't be that guy that kills another player on surface, and then when they start playing down below using another alt to kill them again. It's profoundly lame and possibly the number one factor in making this server feel like it is run by a cabal of toxic elites.

2. Give others their space to play (or when to stay your blade)

Arelith is MASSIVE, I mean HUGE. When you were at school did the teachers ever tell feuding children to play at other ends of the school yard? You can do the same. Sure, IC you might have every reason to want to murder Banites, opposing creeds or schisms within the faith. But pursuing one's IC motivation can easily turn into bullying. Let them get on with it. Do not make it your raison d'etre to kill off another group's RP. By all means have the occassional conflict, either through RP and PVP, but don't log in each day with an eye to confrontation.

Arelith is about players writing narratives and creating stories based upon a particular theme. Stop trying to strangle the baby in its crib.

3. PLEASE, stop using Discord to talk crap about other players.

Most of the time this is untrue, or at least highly subjective. The great newsflash here is that almost everyone who plays here are perfectly nice people, but doing this, where a community turns into a toxic popularity contest. Most times when a player bullies another in game, they do it because they think they're being protective, they believe that the actions and words of another have made this action entirely justified. This is either because of something they have been told, or quite often, because someone has shown them a screenshot of an actual discord conversation, where one player has been foul about another.

I mean, it's just not a good way to be, as a person, so stop it.

Finally, I know that long forum posts to address issues is both outdated, and easily ignored. It can also come across as more than a little arrogant. I'm going to consider other ways to connect with the players again, and DM Straw Hat had an idea that players themselves could possibily suggest some community building ideas. I'd love to hear them. Possibly by humanizing one another we may see less of this toxicity in future.

I live in hope.

I wanna preface this post im making here, real quick with a few things; This post isnt meant to whine, or complain, or call out anyone specifically. This post is meant to highlight somethings that Irongron is referencing and add additional context, its also meant to offer potential solutions as i dont believe that you should ever err grievance without offering some sort of constructive solution to fix the issue at hand. This post is also, above all an opinion of a player, and thus isnt meant to say "I know better than anyone, its meant to offer perspective and potential solutions.

I frequently tend to take breaks from this game due 100% to player actions that are taken within the context of this server due to so called bad blood and pvp behaviors. I would be, maybe, minorly one of "those" players that frequently find themselves in controversial situations OOC or IC, and I like to think im fully aware of that. Of course that could just be some over inflated ego, who knows... I also want to preface that I frequently play "Banites" on this server, which was specifically called out, so id like to post from my context, as Quicksilver is quoted in that second avengers movie, "I dont have a big picture, I have a little picture, I keep it in my pocket"

Im not going to specify player names or faction names, people with context already know the issues ill bring up and will know about them, and in my opinion things in the past should remain that way lest new players be tainted with negative views of factions or players, which is not my intent in posting this. Its simply to highlight a players perspective into the server and behaviors that my single, small viewpoint has on the way the community interacts... I will also not go on to say that I or anyone in my group/groups have ever not been at fault in situations, as it ALWAYS takes two to tango.

So with 3 paragraphs of context before my experience, I hope isnt glossed over just to quote text about 3 sentences and cause some form of flaming; ill get into it:


There is a large disconnect, I feel between factions, I think there is actually a few true problems and i think most of it is mechanical on why there tends to be bad blood breeding between players. There are also a few problems that wont, and wont ever be fixed by changing rules or by making mechanical changes to the game, From my perspective.

Anyone who knows my forum name will probably be quite aware of me, for those that dont, I started on Arelith right around when EE first launched, I played with a few buddies of mine who were looking to have that RpPvP experience, They got it, and quickly became bored with the game. I first started on Skal back in those wild Skal days with 40 or 50 players running around, some RPing some not. We chose to be banites because evil, lol.

What I found was a server that was filled with passionate people who wanted to develop characters in a long form I had never seen before, When my buddies quit, I kept going, I was addicted frankly. I ended up on the doorstep of the Bane church and worked my way into leadership. I knew nobody, but they took me in quite quickly, and showed me the ropes of the game. I knew nothing about DnD then.

Since then ive made numerous characters, but that guy became slightly noticable after taking over the church and recruiting a group of like minded nerds, and causing some problems along the way. For those that know me, I plaid Bisik Willows, My first character on the server, and most recently Adenious. Both banites, and both have been at the center of some controversy, although probably not as much as some. Ive taken more than a few licks because, well simply, I like to inject my opinion into things even when it isnt wanted. (Meta joke wow)

For each of those characters I knew no-one. I created a discord for each faction as they came up because it is easier to coordinate meetings and such and get players synced into game on discord where a message can stay in a reliable place. Its also a great place to post big meme gifs and make fun of each other. It is also a great place where we can share our RP experiences with each other and talk about developing characters.

In my time running the Banites I had two different philosophies, But not many would ever know that. When i played Bisik, I had assumed based on my experiences at the time, That pvp was the end all be all behavior of the server. That when conflict occurs, the good bet was fighting was going to happen. Now i was relatively new to the server then, So why would I think that? Well partially because i came in with a few people looking to do that, and partially because once i stepped off skal and into Cordor, that is what i was met with.

My first experience with that character, was being Metad out as a Banite, Attacked, and banned from cordor at level 15 within 3 minutes of stepping off the boat. Something I was lead to believe was against rules such as be-nice, etc. So I reported, moved on, I figured, ill just take this as character development. What I did not know was that this was a frequent, and cultural thing when it came to factions i was unaware of, As for 4 months IRL playing on skal I met with paladins, and knights, Goodly players, who were willing to sit down across the table and TALK with opposing aligned players. That was what i fell in love with.

Again, this is not to whine or complain, this was years ago now, but the disconnect between one end and the other was there, and the stories exist, these are not isolated incidents they are pervasive, they exist. and they exist at all levels.

To provide more context, My second philosophy is one that I still get to see the ripple effects of today, with players within my faction whom I "Raised" Under this philosophy continue to thrive, and it is something im far proud of.

I created Adenious with the express goal of PvP as self defense only, To talk every situation out. Yet still be fundamentally EVIL, But be a diplomat, not a warhawk. This, for a time worked amazingly. We had players appear from settlements to come speak, We tried many a time to assist those who lived on the island in order to work to reverse the history of the Banites and to offer an alternate to a faction the server considers Unredeemable. One thing I always did, when running a faction, was that it was open to ANYONE, literally. ANYONE. Ive had many public disagreements with several people, people whom probably assume i dislike them. Nope. Join the faction. Absolutely. I will not turn down a soul.

But what i never accounted for in any of these iterations was that, the player community atleast from the perspective of one, Dislikes the Banite faction. It frequently boils down to; and these are literal, actual examples "Well 10 IRL years ago the banites did--"
"My character was made with a hostility toward Bane, and Banites in general"

"If you are evil, you are going to be killed for it, If you are neutral and stand with evil, you are guilty by association"

These sort of character motivations only service to create PvP. But ill get into that later. The faction I created, I told every new person that joined, that if they were doing so in order to start fights, theyd be disappointed. We want to talk to people. We dont just want to change the mind of the character, we want to change the mind of the PLAYER. And then, hopefully then, things will become more healthy. What I didnt take into account was that once the faction in the church hits over a certain size that it would begin to be targeted with zero character interaction by factions of opposing influence. A faction we never even interacted with since beginning the iteration, made a trip from myon to the bane church, to begin slaughtering characters. Once that faction became bored because no retaliation came, they disappeared, vanished. Gone, reduced to atoms. Replaced by another faction which had made the decision to tell characters, in game that they would kill them over and over and over until they publicly quit the faction.

In my opinion, Bad blood isnt created out of thin air, It is earned. There has never been a player on this server I havent been fully willing to sit down with for hours on end and discuss their problems. frankly not a DM either. I have also been in the position of being told by a prominant team member that I would never recieve any RP benefits because my RP boiled down to essentially being a retarded roadside bandit whose only legacy was killing lowbies in skal. I changed my discord name to remind me of that conversation every day. Because, While it stung in the moment, and i found it quite rude. It did encourage me to work better. Though that team member quite possibly would still hold that opinion, and this post wont engraciate myself any more to any of the team, im sure. Again, its not meant to call anyone out (Ill keep qualifying it, I mean zero ill intent with this post It is simply my perspective, and my experience, my truth as it were)

So why do I highlight these things? Well because i believe solutions can be offered:

Ill start with things I believe can, and could be fixed, but like any changes to anything on a server this large and this much history, any change at all big or small will be controversial in its own right.

Things that can be changed/made better
1. PvP has no meaning

2. Player death has zero consequence

3. Players are forbidden to hold multiple positions but enforcement of a rule doesnt fix bad actors.

4. Players are not given spaces to interact amicably with each other

5. Player Histories trump character knowledge on matters and those histories spill into IC far, far too much

6. Alignment has more bearing on how players are behaving on the surface than actual character development

7. Some player factions do, wholeheartedly believe that wars can only be won when the enemy faction is deleted through DM conquest, not through PC interaction.


Things that, no matter how much you try, you can never fix

1. Many Players have main character syndrome which ends up conflicting with a PvP subculture

2. There is a PvP based subculture that persists in the server that conflict with the players that have MCS (Main character syndrome)

3. There are, and always will be bad actors



As you can see from this list of my opinion, there is much more that can be fixed than cannot. There are many things that CAN be fixed. are there easy solutions? Absolutely not. Will fixes for them take a huge amount of time? I believe they can. Do i think Unfixables can be mitigated and reduced? yes, But you will never get rid of them entirely.


So let me break the unfixable down first:

Unfixables
Main Character Syndrome - We all know this player, They wanna step into every event, they wanna talk the loudest, they wanan do the things. Dying is a personal slight, their character may or may not be modeled off themselves or their own personalities and any insult to the character is a personal insult to the player.

>insert shrug emoji here <

Its difficult if not impossible to tell somebody "ey, dont take it personal, dont play yourself in a video game" Some people cannot help inserting themselves. MCS itself is not actually that big of a problem, it only becomes a problem when they are forced to interact with

PvP Subculture
PvP, in itself isnt a problem, The subculture sees dying as just, another mechanic, something to learn from. Not a big deal. But, in most RP game servers the people who pour themselves into their characters interact with those who want to project strength. With no obvious resolution to combat these encounters become a toxic downward cycle of self abuse.

I could flow chart it out, but we all know and have seen the results of this, usually resulting in Report wars which leads me into...

Bad faith Actors
We know who these people are, The DMs may as well, They will always skirt the rules, they will always find something that benefits them and exploit it to the fullest. Sometimes it can be impossible to see the BFA because they try to engraciate themselves with the people in power. This is where rumors of favoritism come in, and weve seen the results of that as players.

A big issue comes into play that its hard not to separate a BFA from those around them as well, Because they will inevitably pull players along with them, and guilt by association is strong in the human psyche.

This is where I agree with the notion that DMs should have counters, they should be able to easily track these people, Do i think that people should have some sort of amorphous 3 strikes rule? No, I dont think players should be banned by the number of reports that come in, But the players with the most reports should certainly be under a microscope to see exactly what it is that they are doing, and whether or not it seems to be in bad faith.



Alright, since thats out of the way. here comes some potential solutions. Are they eligant? are they perfect? no. Would everyone like it, IDK, is there a logical reasoning behind each solution that could see a resolution or mitigation to problems the server has? I undoubtably think so...


Largest solution to smallest, so

1. PvP, meaningless, no consequences, etc.

There is a Solution i have been hounding out in my brain for a while to Faction PvP, Ive brought it out to quite negative expression by this community before, So i dont expect this to garner any traction. To those that disagree with this solution I do want to say, Please, Come up with something then, instead of throwing your hands up in the air and saying its impossible.

Faction PvP is the biggest outrage generator in this server, You fix it, and a lot of problems go away and you are left with small time nerds causing trouble.

My solution isnt simple but if implemented can simplify the problem: Let factions war with each other, give them a beginning, give them an end, and make the battle lines clear so that bad faith actors can be warned or banned for interfering with the system.

----------
Factions are given the opportunity to air out grievances with another faction Publically by handing out a formal declaration of war, this would have to be something initated by a DM through the ticketing process, The Faction heads are given a location and time, Coordinated so that they can meet and hash out details with a 3rd party mediator played by the DM to come to a mutual arrangement.

Two factions must mutually accept the terms of war within a timeline given
Once the terms are agreed upon each player in the faction must vote or opt into the war, giving consent to the consequences of the war, those that Opt out will be unable to participate in the fighting.

Once that happens, the war has 10 IRL days to resolve, Each character in the faction will have a set number of "tickets" per gamification, we will call it 3. Once those 3 are used, the character will be unable to log in to the character until the war resolves. This would be mechanically enforced by a system similar to the MoD.

Once all characters have been killed via this method the war will resolve, if not, the side with the most remaining tickets will win,

Tickets can only be removed by a killing blow from one of the opposed factions, if a non faction player participates in the fight then the ticket is refunded, (can be resolved through, if damage is done to the player who is killed, does not account for healers obviously but theres no simple solution there)

If the enemy faction logs out for the entirety of the war, then they would be resolved as a retreat, and thus lose the war.

Once the war is resolved the terms begin to be enforced for a set amount of time by the factions in the simplest instances, in more complex contexts a DM enforcement.

This is a system to resolve disputes of factions and obviously, unless the team is willing, would not remove permanent assets from the server.


Example: Banites and Cordor are going at it again, Cordor doesnt want banites in their city, but cannot expell all of them or bar them all from entry, Banites want to be allowed in Cordor to preach.

War is declared, The Faction heads are to put a ticket into the DM team to declare their terms of war. The faction heads are placed into a room with each other, or offered a locale to meet face to face in a neutral platform, enforced with punishment if attacks happen.

Terms are agreed upon that if Cordors faction loses the fight, the Banites, except those expressly banned before the war are allowed to preach in Cordor for 30 IRL days and are immune from searches or attacks by the cordor faction, If Cordor wins, all Banite faction members are expelled from Cordor, As per exile, for 30 IRL days.

The Battle rages for 10 Days, but ultimately Cordor comes out on top, and they win the battle, the Banite faction is then expelled from Cordor on entry for 30 days.


-------


It is in my opinion, that giving Factions a goal to work towards, and a resolution, will remove a lot of bad blood fairly quickly. As right now a Faction war is, and it is of the opinion of many, either a Report War, or "Kill my enemy until they get tired of playing the game"

I know, anyone reading this far down will probably say "Well that isnt me" Probably isnt, But the culture persists that, with no meaning to death, no meaning to war, The only plausible victory is to remove your enemy from the board. Those are consequences, and that provides closure.


Ill close out by saying, once more, this is my little picture, I keep it in my pocket. I dont get to see everything that goes on in this game, I get to see what i do from my little picture. Does that mean I have my opinions? yes. But Im also aware that everyone here has their own views of how things occur. Im willing to give people the benefit of the doubt that they are doing things based on what they see, and many pick a characters decisions based on their own knowledge. The vast majority of this server is filled with people who love to tell stories, and they are GOOD at it. Very good... Seriously, some of you need to go write some books and get that money.

There is a reason i find myself coming back here and injecting my horrid ideals into this community, because I care about it, and Ive seen many people who would love to be here, HATE being here because of these things. i have seen HUNDREDS of people quit this game in my time, and it is overwhelmingly about community problems giving them a bad taste. People who created BEAUTIFUL stories, who just couldnt take the abuse anymore. And Honestly, I would like to see it change. Doing nothing wont change it though. Its OK to experiment with solutions.

The old addage is "If it aint broke, dont fix it" But, if it is broke, try to troubleshoot and fix it.

Im getting rather long winded here so I think ill just end it here, I can go on with more solutions, but If anyone has made it through this whole ramble, i give them kudos.