Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

OOC General Discussion

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs

Locked
Richrd
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:03 pm

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Richrd » Thu May 19, 2022 1:58 pm

Hey there Irongron,
first of all; great of you to openly address issues like these. I've personally not been involved in Arelith recently, so I haven't the faintest clue what the current drama is like but overall I think that this post is great since something like this would've been great in events past. Especially the part about simply removing unwanted elements from the community who are causing too much trouble, even while technically adhering to the rules of conduct on Arelith.

Here's an extra opinion piece. I think you (not you specifically but rather the team) ought to go harder with regulating the events and factions on the server. Because recent posts by DMs and yourself read like things have been getting steadily more out of hand. And being more active in other communities as of late I can confirm that Arelith's reputation has indeed gotten more and more the caveat of "the server is great but the community..."

Further I think doing one clean sweep of unwanted elements and factions will make people realize in mass that Arelith is a playground that everyone is supposed to work together with, not a place where they can just reserve a corner of the sandbox for themselves and then act like they own it.

I will never sleep
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:40 pm

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by I will never sleep » Thu May 19, 2022 2:09 pm

I think this is a culmination of communal issues that I've noticed a trend of in the past few years. DM transparency would not be so much an issue- if the ooc and ic channels have not become as inseparable as they are. This sort of ties back into the surge of discord activity and that unfixable problem. I think a large part of it, too, is how DM interaction with the playerbase at large is rarely viewed positively.

It's true that there is very little sense of community on Arelith, a symptom of it becoming too large for its own good, maybe, which in turn brews a lack of trust and good faith. It's true that most players act out Good RP or even adversarial RP as trying to sabotage narrative before it even happens (ie strangling the baby in its crib). This feels more like ooc antagonizing than actually trying to make a story with said person. It's true this is often done with ic violence. I don't even remember the last time I've seen a fight or a dispute without someone getting Stabbed over it.

I agree generally with Treehugger, that this feels sort of like an attempt to remove people, who by Irongron's own words have done no 'actual wrong', just to quiet a nexus of discontent in the community, arguably the ones who are perpetuating the problems against the removed ones.

I can see why he has come to that decision, though. I'm not really sure what I would do in his position, and I'm hoping the words come to me before this thread's inevitable locking.


--

msterswrdsmn wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 11:38 am
In the end, it was suggested "hey, maybe just....sit down and talk with the players oocly, one-on-one, about how they're being overly-disruptive and what can be done to improve?"

This worked.

That said, i have only the vaguest of ideas as to what this particular issue is refering to, so take this with a grain of salt.
This sounds like a generally good idea that might encourage some positivity. But who knows.
Irongron wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 9:27 am
Finally, I know that long forum posts to address issues is both outdated, and easily ignored. It can also come across as more than a little arrogant. I'm going to consider other ways to connect with the players again, and DM Straw Hat had an idea that players themselves could possibily suggest some community building ideas. I'd love to hear them. Possibly by humanizing one another we may see less of this toxicity in future.

I live in hope.
This is also true, sadly. I hope something more productive emerges in the future. Because, lets be honest, most people are not going to take away much from this thread.
Last edited by I will never sleep on Thu May 19, 2022 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Arjay670
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2022 5:02 pm

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Arjay670 » Thu May 19, 2022 2:12 pm

I'm going to throw my two cents in here, because why not.

I've found my little home on Arelith fairly recently, so I'm pretty insulated from a lot of the drama that's going on, which has let me see a ton of fallout all around. I'm not going to put any judgement on the players or the DMs in question, because frankly I don't know them well enough. I've heard things, but I haven't seen enough of the history in place to really be able to comment in good faith, so I'm staying out of that. Things seem to be settling down, and I'll just say good to that.

This isn't my first server, though, so I can comment on trends and decisions, and point out a big gaping problem that I see.

It's good to want to maintain people's privacy. Airing someone's dirty laundry is not a nice thing to do, and it's not something that sits well with most people's consciences. However, on a server like this, what someone (for example) does in Cordor can ripple all the way across the server and cause a stir in every area. There are times, especially when (as stated by Irongron) there are many people filing complaints, that opacity is going to cause problems.

Let's look at the responses we have here. It's very obvious that there are people who are not on the same page about what has happened. I read this, and I see it as a confirmation that an OOC group who has been causing an IC stir in multiple areas using their alts, possibly using their alts on characters/players who were a problem for their mains (or vice versa), have been dealt with after multiple complaints. I know other's I've spoken with have read this message, too. At least one person, though, is taking the opposite message, that the "elite ooc cabal of bad actors" has gotten together to file complaints and get people banned/suspended.

There's a time for privacy, but there's also a time for transparency, and some decisions need to be made openly, even with details kept to a minimum, just to eliminate misunderstandings like this that can cause resentment and grudges to form. The rumor mill is EXTREMELY active, and that is 100% normal for a server like this. You are NEVER going to eliminate it. The only thing that can be done is to provide the transparency so that people are 100% clear (or as close as possible) on what is tolerated and what is acted upon. I'm pretty sure everyone knows what situation is being referenced here, but let's face it, no one is even sure if the party they see as the offenders are the ones who were banned, and without being able to see CD keys, no one can be sure about it without transparency. No one knows if the ban is permanent, or if they're going to be allowed back after a decent time out.

I'm enjoying my time on this server, but even in the months I've been here, I've seen signs of a population that has grown to have no faith in DMs taking action, or DMs taking action that isn't based on favoritism. Yes, this has been flat-out said to me. That's a problem that won't go away unless you actually make clear what actions ARE being taken.

Xerah
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Xerah » Thu May 19, 2022 2:16 pm

I find it strange that the default assumption is that none of these people have ever been talked to.

At any rate, consider this smaller scale, with a DM and 4 people sitting at a table. One of the player's roleplay is very disruptive, constantly being antagonistic to other players, always directing the flow of the story by being the first to speak up and never giving anyone else a chance, being a "rule lawyer", etc all in the name of "that's what my character would do". Nothing they are doing is against the rules of the game, but it's making the other players very uncomfortable and killing their will to play the game which puts the game at risk. In those cases, the DM talks to the player and hopes the player changes. In the worst cases, they are just asked not to return to the game because the relationship is so soured with the other players. You see these questions about what to do daily in D&D/DM discussion forums.

It's really hard to explicitly state the rules of "Be Nice" in such a way to deal with this. It's really up to the player to have some empathy that maybe their actions aren't cool and maybe fun for all is more important than "my character would do it".
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

User avatar
Skibbles
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:25 am

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Skibbles » Thu May 19, 2022 2:27 pm

I've been on the far periphery of all of this, utterly unaffected as a player or even any of my PCs, but still I occasionally heard the rare rumor or grumble even as I am in actually zero discord groups besides the portrait one I joined the other day. Heck this is still vague enough that I'm not 100% sure this is about what I think it might be.

Even so - it was pretty clear something was wrong. I still think something may be wrong.

IG's nuclear options sound appealing if I dredge up some unpleasant memories.

People aren't giving anyone fair options. No, not an pre-consequence 'out', but just options for characters to agreeably end their disagreement. Just go have a duel or something - leader vs leader. Set a stake and just do it and get it over with.

Sure it's an arguably 'Lawful' thing to do, this is just an example anyway, but who really cares when the alternative is a perpetual grinding hellscape of ganks until an entire timezone is an uninhabited wasteland.

It's just tiring to see the same one option disguised as two, with both of them intolerable to any player looking to enjoy themselves.

"Either you do [impossible or highly unpleasant capitulation] or face my [unending one-line 4v1 turboganks]."

Sometimes even when PCs do go with the former, to the letter, then it merely signals and invites the demanding party to just demand more - enough to where it seems clear that the first demand was only made to nudge the PC into accepting the only real outcome the aggressor wanted which was [unending one-line 4v1 turboganks] in the first place.

It's just a horrid way to treat players, in the end, even when it can be completely justified as an IC thing to do. Dogmatic adherence to being in character at all times sound good in writing, but if someone is IC 100% of the time it's also tacitly admitting that 0% of that time is dedicated to considering other players and how to interact with them as actual people.

Or in other words exactly what Xerah said as I typed this out:
Xerah wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 2:16 pm
One of the player's roleplay is very disruptive [...] all in the name of "that's what my character would do". Nothing they are doing is against the rules of the game, but it's making the other players very uncomfortable and killing their will to play the game which puts the game at risk.
It's just a psychotic way to play Arelith, frankly.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Ork » Thu May 19, 2022 2:32 pm

I really like the idea behind the system of resolving faction war. I think we do need something like this to dictate a clear end of aggressions and the stipulations of winning. I do think there needs to be other objectives beyond PvP otherwise we risk turning into an arena server (which we need one). Good post shrouded.

User avatar
Hazard
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Hazard » Thu May 19, 2022 2:37 pm

The old settlement war system was very flawed and could be abused to achieve victory without actually even participating in the war ... Like just mass selling resources to a settlement while no one is online to bankrupt them, etc.

But the IDEA of the faction war system was a good one. Remember when we could vassalise other settlements and stuff?

What if we brought back something similar and more refined, not just for settlements but also for factions. Maybe guild houses could have a sort of stockpile that depletes based on player activity/deaths/whatever, and - I don't know.

I don't even know what this drama is about, but I assume it has something to do with PvP not having real consequences leaving people perpetually unsatisfied or without closure, on both sides of any conflict.

Having some mechanical system brought back/put in place might go a long way to settling disputes, and best of all doing it IC.

Maybe I'm just being naive and optimistic. Again, I have no idea what the drama is.
Last edited by Hazard on Thu May 19, 2022 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Richrd
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:03 pm

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Richrd » Thu May 19, 2022 2:37 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 2:32 pm
... otherwise we risk turning into an arena server (which we need one).
I mean if people want an arena-esque PvP experience with little to no rules or penalties they can just go to the PGCG (or however you spell that), no?

Whenever I tried out a build I had no issues with finding players to fight with there. Not only super relaxing but the OOC chatter lends itself to a fun atmosphere.

Jimmeyred
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:14 pm

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Jimmeyred » Thu May 19, 2022 2:37 pm

I've been playing on Arelith for roughly 11 years now, and must agree to the sentiment of having seen this song and dance time and time again.

It's unfortunate that many players and factions become more concerned with winning than with creating an interesting narrative, and serving that narrative.

Those of you who know me, I used to be awful for that myself! I hope I'm better now. But it definitely seems part of the issue is how tightly connected PvP is to people's ego, and then how that's made worse by this need to win.

It's hard when someone's character is actively trying to take yours down to not feel a personal slight at times, but if you can disconnect the person from their character, you can even befriend them in some cases and arrange for a more intricate, and interesting rivalry that leaves both parties relatively satisfied.

Is that realistic to expect? No. But if you never make an effort to try to arrange something more interesting for you and your potential rival, it might end up constantly coming down to these bitter PvP moments.

And PvP itself is fine. There's certainly nothing wrong with it. When it is abused, and when the intentions are bad, (I.E. to make a player afraid to play their character) it always leads to make matters worse.

I'll end my post here. I have more thoughts, but that sums it up.

Plays as Abasi Erden

Played:

Malos Dvorak (Retired)
Hermes Kyril (Dead)
Cassius Gallostone (Extra dead)
James Wolf (Retired)
Theo Alexander (Dead)
Arraxus Vikarius (Dead)


Babylon System is the Vampire
Posts: 951
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:14 am

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu May 19, 2022 3:09 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 2:32 pm
I do think there needs to be other objectives beyond PvP otherwise we risk turning into an arena server.
This is the key.

What I am about to say won't fix all the ails of the server, there will always be salty loosers and rumors galore about x y and z. And it certainly doesn't excuse folks who got so addicted to pvp they are terrorizing different parts of the server across multiple alts. But we as gamers on the whole like to compete. The only real way to compete in a meaningful way on Arelith is through pvp or Settlement politics. And I am saying this as someone who rarely gets into pvp or settlement politics, so it's not like I haven't looked for other ways.

Now I could sit here and list the same ideas I gave a year ago when this came up, and the year before that (and the year before that..), but even if you don't remember what people said the last go round it was all pretty much common sense. Just realize that the game is nothing without conflict and competition, and if that continues to only involve pvp or settlement politics (at least in the sense that it has a lasting effect) eventually a new group is going to get addicted to pvping folks and the cycle will continue.

Arienette
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 352
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:56 pm

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Arienette » Thu May 19, 2022 3:17 pm

This is in response to some of the comments here, but also just something that I have wanted to say for a while and this seems like a good opportunity to do so.

Of course, nobody likes losing. Whether that is a narrative defeat or a PvP defeat. We've all gotten bent out of shape because of this stuff from time to time.

But I have been playing here for some years now. I have been involved, across multiple characters, in some very contentious RP. I have been involved in some of the big "wars" and conflicts that have sometimes been somewhat disruptive to the server. And while losing is never fun, it doesn't have to be the sort of thing that ruins the fun of the game for people. Its a particular KIND of conflict and PvP that sucks the fun out of everything. I have been involved in plenty of conflict on the "losing" side, and the difference between it being enjoyable vs soul-sucking is the extent to which it falls into the following categories:

"GOOD" Conflict and PvP:

A house war of some sort. One house is the top dog, another house wants to be the top dog. They make this intention clear narratively. They take steps to discredit and weaken the other house. They recruit members, maybe try to steal allies from the top dog house. This sort of conflict will almost certainly involve some PvP fighting, maybe a LOT of it! But the key thing is, the characters (and more importantly the players) involved understand the motivation and the goals of the other side. They can see that, like them, the "bad guys" are trying to tell a story and make meaningful moves in the overall server narrative. Its just that their paths are colliding, but in a way that makes sense and is understandable. Nobody is left to wonder "What is going on? Why is this happening?"

One side will lose, and this sucks for them. But the players (and therefor characters) can process these events and work them into their character development, and move forward with the story and continue having fun. Its likely to be more fun for the winners, but it can and should be fun for the losers too.

"BAD" Conflict and PvP:

This kind of conflict and PvP can take many forms. But basically, it is when one character or group of characters initiates conflict and PvP with another character or group of characters for seemingly little or no reason. Group A is just doing their thing, and Group B decides to pick a fight with them, and the reason is not well understood. Perhaps the reason for the conflict seems spurious. Perhaps it is not expressed well. Perhaps it is not expressed AT ALL. Perhaps the reason for the conflict is nonexistent, and the conflict is simply a vehicle for people who strictly enjoy the mechanical PvP aspect of the server to have their good time. Or at least that is the wide perception of it, due to the characters/players driving the conflict failing to make their intentions and motivations clear. (I know the last one is cynical but it needs to be said)

The common thread is that one side feels that they are having conflict pushed on them, and for whatever reason they don't understand why on an IC or OOC level. The reasons for the conflict are not made clear. They are not aware of, or do not understand the motivation for the initiation of the conflict. The reason for the conflict, if expressed, seems to fly in the face of the setting in some way that makes it incomprehensible to the extent it cannot be processed and worked into the story of the character.

___________

We NEED players and characters who are willing and able to drive conflict on the server. The game would be downright boring without it. But I really want to implore people to ensure that when driving conflict, they:

1. Have a reason for the conflict that is appropriate to the setting.
2. They make the reasons for the conflict widely known IC.
3. If the conflict is long-lasting, make sure the players on the other side of the screen understand why the conflict is happening.

This way, the players, and their characters, can process what is happening and work it into their story in a meaningful way. Rather than feel like they are just being struck by lightning for no explicable reason.

UilliamNebel
Posts: 198
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:12 am

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by UilliamNebel » Thu May 19, 2022 3:23 pm

Having been targeted, and on the receiving end of bias, and knowing others who have been, I can say this has been an issue for sometime. And is an issue that has followed people across PWs to Arelith.

I do not like it to come to CD key bans. I do not think that ultimately will be good for the server pop or RP quality.

As much as the political RP and resource management of settlements has added to Arelith. It has also taken a lot, continually. I'd rather see such control returned to NPCs. And new methods to include PCs experimented with and introduced. Not for equity sake, but because game mechanics that incentivize a behavior will get all such behaviors, positive and negative.

User avatar
Royal Blood
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:12 am

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Royal Blood » Thu May 19, 2022 3:26 pm

I wanna be quick cause there's a lot of big posts here.

1: DM transparency is, I think, not something we want to open. I feel strongly that airing the grievances and the cases DM's file on players will only add to the turmoil to such a degree that players will just leave. Trust your DMs. Take it up with Irongron if you think there's an issue. I really believe transparency is not the way to go. It opens the door, way, way, too much to miss interpretation and large-scale community shaming preventing that player from ever developing beyond their initial status. In the 'relative' privacy of DM counciling a player can receive critism (Sometimes harsh) reflect and move on. If it was public knowledge it would never be lived down by the community at large. Many players receive this kind of stuff and are better for it and turn into great players.

2: I do, strongly believe, there needs to be more objectives other than PVP. I think this is like suuuper important. Because there's no tangible way to have an impact on the server perse. There is, but it's not obvious. It requires a lot of luck and persistence.

Playing a UD character I often took groups to the surface but I made a habit of letting the DMs know what we were doing. Usually, the context of the surface trek was religious so like we'd be putting down an altar to our god or desecrating another gods altar. Or scouting... Playing border wars by destroying base camps made by our enemy etc... We had like minor goals that weren't PVP oriented and DMs occasionally got involved with NPCs.

I would encourage people who are interested in combat to regularly keep DMs appraised of what you're doing. Anytime I'd go to the surface with a UD party we always let them know even if the intention wasn't to raid. It's just like opening the door for them to interact. When the goal of your stuff is like narrative and not objective based success you can be comfortable doing that cause you're seeking the story not the win.
I am not on a team.
I do not win, I do not lose.
I tell a story, and when I'm lucky,
Play a part in the story you tell too.

User avatar
Scurvy Cur
Posts: 1310
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:48 am

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Scurvy Cur » Thu May 19, 2022 3:32 pm

Irongron wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 9:27 am

A lot of really good stuff that just makes the quote too bulky.

1. Beware of Crossing Streams (or how to play alts responsibly).

We all enjoy having power and influence, being on the inside track of our settlement or chosen corner of the server. Having a controlling stake. Please, if you are playing this way, do so ONLY IN ONE CHARACTER. Being one of the main decision makers in Guldorand and using an alt to do the same in Andunor on another charcter is, well, control freakery, frankly. You have your place to wear the big hat, don't use alts to try and control the narrative elsewhere.

This is doubly true with PvP. If you are player that lists murder as one of their hobbies, pick a side. Don't be that guy that kills another player on surface, and then when they start playing down below using another alt to kill them again. It's profoundly lame and possibly the number one factor in making this server feel like it is run by a cabal of toxic elites.

2. Give others their space to play (or when to stay your blade)

Arelith is MASSIVE, I mean HUGE. When you were at school did the teachers ever tell feuding children to play at other ends of the school yard? You can do the same. Sure, IC you might have every reason to want to murder Banites, opposing creeds or schisms within the faith. But pursuing one's IC motivation can easily turn into bullying. Let them get on with it. Do not make it your raison d'etre to kill off another group's RP. By all means have the occassional conflict, either through RP and PVP, but don't log in each day with an eye to confrontation.

Arelith is about players writing narratives and creating stories based upon a particular theme. Stop trying to strangle the baby in its crib.

3. PLEASE, stop using Discord to talk crap about other players.

Most of the time this is untrue, or at least highly subjective. The great newsflash here is that almost everyone who plays here are perfectly nice people, but doing this, where a community turns into a toxic popularity contest. Most times when a player bullies another in game, they do it because they think they're being protective, they believe that the actions and words of another have made this action entirely justified. This is either because of something they have been told, or quite often, because someone has shown them a screenshot of an actual discord conversation, where one player has been foul about another.

I mean, it's just not a good way to be, as a person, so stop it.
While I am certain that it's unpleasant for you to wind up in a place where you felt compelled to write this, I am heartened to wake up to this post. Each of these points is worth a lengthier discussion, I feel, but an early morning forum post is not where I would prefer to do so. Regardless, thank you. I am particularly glad that point 1 has been brought up. Seeing people carry grievances across multiple characters is always uncomfortable.

To anyone else crunching through this thread, and some of the thoughtful posts in it, I'd add one other bit of advice:

Don't be afraid to be a nonparticipant in a fight that's not yours, even if your OOC friends are involved. One thing I notice with more frequency than I wish I did was a tendency for entrenched faction infighting to draw in people who have only a tenuous (if any) IC reason to be involved in it. I get the impulse. Your friends have pursued a confrontation and it's about to boil over into some big battles. These are exciting, you want to join. And besides, your friends can use the help. But you don't really have a character that's been part of the RP, so you contrive a reason to sign up on a character who isn't connected to the events at hand, or you dust off a character you haven't played in months and let them just happen to hear of the percolating conflict.

This always feels bad, and whenever I see it happen, it always badly cheapens the often quite reasonable storytelling that has gone on to generate the conflict in the first place. Everyone loses out when this happens, so fight the urge to do so, even when your friends ask for help.


Nidea Lynn
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:19 pm

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Nidea Lynn » Thu May 19, 2022 3:37 pm

💖
Marle VVLL [Episodic Character]
Nidea Lynn [Active]
Synnafay Ssambra [Paused]

User avatar
MalKalz
General Admin
General Admin
Posts: 3023
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:33 pm

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by MalKalz » Thu May 19, 2022 4:00 pm

I'll try and quickly answer some posts that I saw that should need an answer.
Aradin wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 11:22 am
I get the notion of having to use the banhammer on toxic players that purposefully skirt the rules, but if the ones in question are reasonable folks and just interpreting the spirit of the rules wrong, sounds like it could be corrected with some direct communication. The problem with blanket announcement statements like this is that they can be easily ignored, or interpreted as "Oh that applies to the OTHER side - not to me. I'm one of the good ones."

If you have DMs withdrawing from making judgments because they're too close to the issue, then you clearly already know who these problematic players are and I suspect could get in contact with them. As a player I know I'd appreciate the honest effort to reach out instead of communication-less punishment. Or I might choose to leave of my own volition after learning that the way I want to play isn't welcome and another server would suit me better. Either outcome is better than getting banned without having broken any rules.
Players are approached by the DMs with the intent of clearly communicating issues, reports and rule violations (if there was one or if there was close to being one).

To quickly touch on the process, we evaluate as to whether the player has a history of this as we bring up any old cases, what prior actions were, how long it has been between the cases, and to the severity in which they acted in this instance. From there we attempt to be as clear as possible, identify the issues, ask for their insight (because there are two sides to each report), and advice / work with them on ways to remediate any concerns. If there has been a warning, and this is repeat behaviour, it is often met with a short absence from the game - if it continues after that then punishment increases.

The only time there is ever blanket bans is on identified griefers that are ruining your immediate fun and we can address it that way and handle the fall out afterwards. Even with sexy elven fun times cases, we notify them that they were conducting in such behaviour and we had to read such fifthly logs.

To touch on the second point - DM closeness. DMs have to remove themselves from any case where there is potential bias. Bias stems from multiple avenues (plays in the faction, closely plays with the player, personal friend, etc). They can give their opinion on the case, but they must be clear that there is bias. But, the investigation / logs will determine whether a report is valid and the individual is innocent or guilty.
HeyLadyOfDecay wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 11:25 am
Don't forget there is a "mark of despair" to be used. People who get reported to PVP to much should get one before being spanked. [...]Gang up. Any over 3 vs 1 pvp should be something that can be reported and illegal tbh.
Marks of Despair are often used for repeat offenders that have not learned from coaching and breaks from the server. A Mark of Despair is a punishment, thus being spanked (using your words). We try our best to not have to enforce this, but players do earn it from time to time and it is a way to help deter unwanted behaviour. But, that is just one character - if a player extends the poor behaviour across multiple characters, then a Mark of Despair is not the right tactic.

In regards to PvP - it happens, and it will happen at any number. It is a part of narrative and should be treated more seriously. But, we cannot ban any number of player involvement - it often spills into bystanders or factions, parties, etc being involved. People just have to play by the letter of the rule and follow PvP engagement requirements and it should work. But, they should also consider alternatives and to make it rewarding / fun for both sides.
msterswrdsmn wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 11:38 am
In the end, it was suggested "hey, maybe just....sit down and talk with the players oocly, one-on-one, about how they're being overly-disruptive and what can be done to improve?"

This worked.

That said, i have only the vaguest of ideas as to what this particular issue is refering to, so take this with a grain of salt.
I assure you that it is not a blanket thing and that there is always coaching given - players have the opportunity to have one-on-one conversations. Everything is handled in-game with the DM handling the case. If there are concerns of how they handled it, they can appeal that decision to Titania. And, failing that go to the Active Admins. But, there is a process for communication and open discussion to remediate concerns.
HeyLadyOfDecay wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 11:59 am
It's better to just give them a clear slate, Delete character, new login, Encourage to avoid past people, locations, before actually removing the player.
This was attempted for players. We can easily hide character files and suggest new logins. But, if they make the choice to reveal their identity to friends who then circulate or you identify them based on their roleplay style, it really does not stop people from labeling X as Y. People need to remember that it is a game and that the actions of the character and not the actions of the player. And, if there is malicious acts by the player that these be reported so we can handle them.
miesny_jez wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 12:07 pm
With all due respect Irongron but maybe it is so because the transparency of DM policing is None to the players?

If we fill in a report and send it over to the DM we don't get any information what kind of action has been taken or if anything had been done about it?
This is wrong on both fronts. There is minimum transparency, as in that you are notified that the case is being looked to and handled. You are correct that there is no exact information given on the case - as in, did X get banned? Did they lose their paladin levels? Did they steal too much? You are given, and I hope that it continues to happen (and, yes there is times where it is not but should be) a response that the case has been handled appropriately.

The concerns of the case handling are between the DMs and the individual that was reported. The transparency is not given to everyone as it would just lead to finger pointing, ruined reputations in the community on an OOC front and many other reasons. There is often individuals that share what happened with friends but that is their choice and I strongly encourage them not to do so. Because its often a shorter version of the full instance and does not detail everything - it usually comes from a place of frustration.

The intention is to not allow you to finger point as you mentioned - you shouldn't be. You do not need to. You do not need to hold it over someone's head. All you should need to do is report something and trust that it will be handled accordingly, and if you feel something hasn't, escalate it to the Head DM and then failing that to the Admin team. You then write:
Ok..maybe a stupid idea.. but what if we would have a forum/discord space that would allow people to well write down about others behaviour and why they didn't like that, after approval of a DM and their finished investigation in the matter?

Not a ban to the problematic players, but a place to tell others how was it wrong what the offending player did, maybe seeing your name mentioned in an open space like that could change the behavior of said people, maybe it would warn others about them without the need of generating biased and subjective-based foul talk.
No, this is just going to be problematic and lead to personal attacks. We will not condone this ever and never exercise it is an option.
HeyLadyOfDecay wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 12:26 pm
Bit of a privacy of the player thing.

If they release the result then everyone knows about it soon enough.

on the other hand, They leave the "victim" with a lot of stress.

There needs to be a middle ground, Because this stuff is a major rumor maker.

"Nothing happend, They are DM protected"
"Do you think they are a DM?"
"Bet they are Arelith supporters"

Etc.

By the way, This point was brought up as much as toxic players in reviews.
Just to touch on your commentary here.

Nothing happened is not correct. You're just unaware of the outcome - something could have happened, something could not have. You will and should receive (again I apologize if this isn't being done every time) confirmation that the case has been handled.

No one is DM protected. That is not even a thing - people speculate these rumors and like to cascade it in echo chambers. While we can always try to stop them, we won't get everyone to stop. People have their opinions and will project them as they can. I just hope people stick to fact.

The DM team does not know who is a DM. As in they are unaware of player identities. The only people who know are Admins, and should there be a concern of a case involving a staff member (either reporting it or being reported), the Head DM / Admins would take the case. But, the two identities are separate and the team is unaware of the status of others.

Arelith Supporters gain no advantage over another player minus the involvement in testing of future mechanics and releases and sneak peeks. If I was to break a rule, the expectation is that I would be treated the same as any player and addressed accordingly. I just have more to lose on the basis of my position in the community. But, I know they would do what is right for the community should I be a problem.

I'd like to address more as time comes, but for now the above is my post.

Discord: @malkalz
Determine your Public CD Key here
Can't see your vault? Have you migrated your accounts? If you have tried, and still can't see them, message me.


Hrothgar Bloodaxe
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:44 pm

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Hrothgar Bloodaxe » Thu May 19, 2022 4:48 pm

As a long-time player, who's done/see it all, here are some thoughts:

1. A rule is only as good as the norms/culture behind it. Just like in real life, even the best rules/mechanics can be undermined by bad-faith actors, even if said actors don't violate the letter of the law. The overarching policy of the server is to be nice. Just because someone adhered to the letter of the law, does not excuse them from generally being a problematic member of the community.

2. "Live by the sword, die by the sword." If you don't want to get involved in a lot of PvP battles, then don't make characters that are likely to get involved in these types of disputes. If you don't want to fight religious wars, then don't serve Bane, because that's what you're going to end up doing. Instead, go make a Bard/Loremaster who likes to teach languages and songs, or a cleric of Illmatter who seeks to make potions and heal lonely travelers, etc. The overwhelming majority of players will have 0 interest in fighting those types of characters - because it's honestly not even fun, and is exceedingly hard for them to justify. And the few that do consistently try to kill those types of "benign" characters, are probably going to get a "talking to" / MoD / eventual ban, based on point #1 above, and as we've just seen IG do.

3. Understanding the limitations of alignment/mechanics, vis a vis that this is a game. What I mean is...if you are evil, realize that you cannot actually be evil. Real evil would mean doing all sorts of things that are (rightfully) banned on the server. Similarly, if you are a Paladin/Cleric/religious zealot of some sort, your god may demand you smite infidels - but *actually* doing this, is not feasible while maintaining a generally pleasant space for other players. Same goes for Elves vs. Drow, Dwarves vs. Duergar, or any of the near-infinite number of "blood feuds" that exist in Forgotten Realms.

Just because something makes RP sense, does not mean it makes sense for a gaming community inhabited by real people trying to have fun. Don't use "but my RP demands it" as a crutch/excuse. Your RP is whatever you decide it to be. You can control whether or not your character is an a-hole. You control the story. Yes, this is an RP server. But ultimately, this is a video game first - the highest priority, is for the players of the game, to have fun. RP will always come second to that, by definition; if RP isn't fun, then people will simply stop playing, and the game no longer exists. The key takeaway is to take your RP seriously, but not literally. Using overly-rigid IC norms, moral codes, plot lines, etc. just ends up being an excuse to not have to adapt/accommodate to playing well with others.

4. Proposed Mechanical fix to the "ganking"/PvP issue: I've seen a number of people bring up various mechanics to resolve PvP disputes; this idea is based off a number of related suggestions.

Create a "dueling" mechanic, whereby, once people fight, if one of them dies (or is subdued, etc.), then they cannot fight again for a week. This is different from the 24-hour no PvP rule. I.e. - you challenge someone to a duel. Anyone in the parties, then fights it out. If anyone dies, anyone in those parties, can't fight anyone else, for X IRL days.

I am not a developer, I'm sure there are complicated reasons why this is hard to make, just trying to illustrate a concept. Basically, I think there needs to be some sort of mechanic, where problems can be resolved "once and for all," or at least, for some substantial amount of time so that people can just play the game peacefully, for awhile afterward. Maybe this is some sort of "battle royale" that takes place every two weeks, but that participants cannot fight each other in the meantime.

The issue is, in real life, blood feuds eventually get solved because everyone involved dies, grows old, goes to jail, etc. There are no such consequences in a video game. So there needs to be some sort of rule/mechanic where players can somehow bring a conclusion, to a feud. Otherwise, it just becomes a never-ending cycle, and there's no mechanism or incentive to stop it.

Maybe I'm just naive, but I'd like to imagine at least some of these problems would be reduced if two competing factions had some way to say "You know what, [other faction], I am tired of your offense! I challenge you to a duel, to settle this once and for all!" (And then have some enforcement mechanism that ensures it happens). This way, it spaces out the conflict, lets things cool down, and allows people to just play the game in the meantime.
Of course, optional horse death RP is a possibility.

User avatar
Amateur Hour
Posts: 545
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:50 am

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Amateur Hour » Thu May 19, 2022 5:20 pm

Spyre wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 4:00 pm
A lot of very good and useful information
Thank you for the insight into the back end process for handling reports and conflicts. It'd be great if something like this could be posted as a sticky on the forum somewhere (Administration section, maybe?) for future reference; it might help increase faith in the system if people could see what the system is.

Rolled: Solveigh Arnimayne, "Anna Locksley"
Shelved: Ninim Elario, Maethiel Tyireale'ala
Current: Ynge Redbeard, ???


User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Ork » Thu May 19, 2022 5:22 pm

I do want to mention a concern. When we're talking about people that are a threat to server culture, the onus of that toxicity resides on the players that refuse consequences, insert themselves into their character, take actions against their character as an attack against themselves, etc.

In situations of aggression, 9/10 times I see PvP played out with some character saying something disparaging like "screw you, man! you guys are the worst!" and then they're surprised to find themselves in the fugue. A lot of PvP occurs because the player leaves you with 0 options beyond physical altercation- and then they have the gall to complain after eating dirt. I hope these individuals are held accountable for their actions.

User avatar
Fluffybirb
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:37 am

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Fluffybirb » Thu May 19, 2022 5:23 pm

This thread is exactly why I stopped playing arelith. My main was a shifter, the worst class by far for PvP and some took advantage of that. PvP negates any RP, meaning there is nothing to be done with the power builds show up to murder everyone again.

There aren't conciqences on arelith for those who focus on PvP first. Not saying it's wrong to live PvP, but there are some who use it to negate any RP or conciqences. And when those conciquences DO come in the form of a faction war, DMs prevent it. IE the Dale and Myon.

I love arelith and I love so many of the interactions I had here. 3k hours spent and I have so many memories. But the flaws were just too much for me.

When you hemorrhage players who have been here for years because of the current climate, something is going wrong. The UD lost almost all its mainstays in a week because of what is talked about here.

Tbh I think there should be more enforcement when it comes to alignments. Does a good aligned person hunt others to the ends of the island purely based on rumor? Does a good aligned person slaughter a city because it exists? Why do gods of good not care their clerics and paladins use their powers to do pretty shady stuff?

That's my rant, but I honestly hope all this can be mended so I can return.

User avatar
HeyLadyOfDecay
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:18 pm
Location: Andunor

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by HeyLadyOfDecay » Thu May 19, 2022 5:30 pm

I just want to point out something, Since we're talking of PvP so much,

PvP is a tool.

Lot of people are completely blindsighted by the mental aspect.

You can PvP the hells out of somebody to get rid of a character or player, But you can also use pressure or mind games to the same effect. And these are scary, Because these can go anywhere, kept perfectly IC, OOC or cross between them.

These things can effect a player mentally, Because they don't see the slow decrease of fun etc till it's to late.

I do think the DM should be more open and active to these kind of tactics aswell.
Lyann Reyer. Back by demand.
(Mass grave of other characters)

User avatar
Roofshadow
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:29 am

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Roofshadow » Thu May 19, 2022 5:32 pm

As it seems like PvP is the thorn in the paw for many negative interactions that spiral, perhaps PvP could be a personal toggle (with a 10 minute or however long toggle if you want to turn it off again, to avoid people abusing it by switching back and forth mid-conflict). That way folks who enjoy PvP-on at all times can continue to do so, but it might mitigate 'faction ganking' and the numbers and levels game that most PvP seems to lean towards by giving players more of a choice.

Nekonecro
Posts: 358
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:52 pm

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Nekonecro » Thu May 19, 2022 5:46 pm

Pvp opt ins are generally a bad idea.

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Ork » Thu May 19, 2022 5:46 pm

It's distinctly not PvP, but how individuals react to it.

User avatar
Party in the forest at midnight
Posts: 1384
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:55 pm

Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Thu May 19, 2022 5:55 pm

A lot of people are beating around the bush with this. I don't like the not naming names thing because it makes it hard to talk about the actual problem, but I understand why it has to happen because otherwise this'd turn into a flame war.

PvP is usually not a problem. Ork is right, usually people talk mad trash and get smacked for it. In the case that spurred Gron's post, that was less of what happened. There was a lot of PvP that made people uncomfortable to even RP with another party, but ended up caught in it anyways. This is what spurred off this whole thing. Some people did talk trash and not back down, but not everyone involved did.

With that said, there's another very unhealthy culture here that was alluded to by Gron but isn't being discussed so much. There are people who conspire to get other people banned from the server, who mass-report people, who try to make the server so unhospitable for people that they leave. I've seen other people targeted by this in the past. I've even seen an innocent person targeted, where all they did was RP with someone involved. That is really unfair.

Limiting PvP won't solve this problem, and if anything just caters towards people who endlessly trash talk. This isn't a PvP problem, it's a player mentality problem. As far as I can tell, both sides of this have people acting in bad faith, and pretending any one side is innocent is going to just keep the problem going.

Mediation was mentioned. If discord mediation happens I recommend more moderation. Last time a bunch of people who I'm pretty sure don't even play the server anymore, let alone have any involvement in the situation, began trolling it. And while it was funny to watch it didn't really solve any problems.

Locked