Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Edens_Fall » Thu May 19, 2022 5:56 pm

As one who has had a fair number of encounters with DMs, I'll be the first to say I've been treated fairly and professionally each time. Each event allowed me to learn and adjust my characters behavior. So concerns of favortism or heavy handed abuse of power (from my perspective) is unfounded.

I would like to agree though, that the lack of IG resolution to settlement/faction conflict can bleed over IG and OOC. While not promoting the old war system, some sort of way for factions / settlements to engage in conflict with a clear winner would be helpful. To often it feels anytime such a thing reaches a climax, NPCs step in to demand the two sides step down. While it stops the war, it doesn't settle the conflict. Instead it simmers and bleed over.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Zavandar » Thu May 19, 2022 6:21 pm

These issues are some of the main reasons I am not playing right now. There is a pervasive culture of circular, hostile stagnation. It is in every settlement and many of the larger, older factions. Many people have acrued grudges over the years and across several characters, and mechanical PvP isn't even the main issue; it is that we are very literally turning into players versus players, not character versus character. It just so happens that some people are better at the game and use it as a means to win over the people they dislike. When IC has become a means to deal with your OOC problems, you're not even RPing anymore.

And people can tell.

To not sound entirely doom and gloom, I know that there are plenty of people, perhaps (optimistically) even a majority of people, that are not part of this problem; however, I do think the majority of the server is affected by it, because it is just that widespread and far-reaching. I am glad it is being addressed, but concerned that the ambiguity around punitive measures will just see it happen again as the banned parties retreat to their echo chambers to spin their own narratives and drum up more frustration and spite.
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by -XXX- » Thu May 19, 2022 6:30 pm

A lot could be said about managing expectations here.
IMO the best mindset before initiating any IG conflict* is "what's the coolest way my toon could lose here?" rather than "how do I win this?".

Thing to keep in mind is that the only thing that players can actually control are their own characters. That means they can opt to lose if they want, but claiming victory would require asserting that control over other characters (which their players may or may not run along with).

Attempting to force a victory in an IG conflict can often feel like beating everybody with a written script during an improv session.
Doing that in an IG conflict that the player initiated themselves can then feel like doing that to a bunch of pedestrians who have been dragged off the street and made to attend said improv session.

Finally, noone's likely going to remember or even care about who won or who lost in a few weeks from now, but those characters who go out in a blaze of glory tend to leave a lasting impression.


*best to keep in mind here that initiating a PvP encounter =/= initiating an IG conflict. PvP is just an escalation of a conflict and rarely serves as either its cause or resolution.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Peachoo » Thu May 19, 2022 6:45 pm

Irongron wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 9:27 am
I
The divisions that led to this original topic, which at the time I did try to address, have continued, not between characters, but, more worryingly, between players. Opposed factions, both in and out of game, regularly slugging it out (again in both), sharing rumours and generally getting protective or upset. I've had a great many complaints, often from players as they on their way out of the door entirely - the game having just become too stressful to play.

I mean, to break my normal formality for a moment - What the hell?! Is it really too much to expect players to actual play nicely together? To think well of each other, to make this community something to actually be proud of rather than being the caveat with which to follow the generally positive reviews Arelith receives

"Arelith is a great server, but the community..."

That being said I'm going to revert to my optimistic, and possibly naive self, I still really admire our broader community, and am still proud of it. I know most don't care at all for this drama, but still...it is has been impacting everyone...

...Well, for now I've opted for a lesser approach, but one that still leaves me deeply uncomfortable, as it will involve removing some players, who frankly, have neither broken rules, nor been abusive in any OOC channels. I've done it before, but only where individuals have just been causing too much general damage to the larger community, the subject of too many complaints, and sadly, the subject of just too many rumours - because a lot of the quiet accusations whispered behind closed Discord doors, have very little basis in fact.

Yet, despite how uncomfortable it makes me feel I have to do this, because rewriting the rules, introducing restrictive new measures, due the actions of a few, is essentially an illogical and far more damaging move. But I'm also not going to sweep it under the carpet, but put it out there, here and now.
I live in hope.
I am probably the last person qualified to be writing any sort of opinion here. But, I wanted to offer some encouragement.

I really feel for you here. You, as the server owner, have this massively complicated issue that just isn't easily answered. Many of the elements that make the community toxic isn't really within your ability to control or get rid of without purging a lot of the player base. And that, really, sucks. You're frustration is 100% valid. And you aren't alone. Many of us get frustrated with same exact issues you describe in your post. Unfortunately, there isn't really an easy answer here.

Yes, you could absolutely go nuclear. But my thought is, a large amount of this playerbase participate in some form - even if meant to be harmless- of this sort of behavior. Would nuking the playerbase and the way the server is run with these options actually make meaningful change? Or would it leave the server without a majority of the player base that keeps it alive?

One of Arelith's greatest appeals is how much freedom the playerbase has to create stories. Literally no other popular server has factions run by players without insane dm oversight. Often times, that dm oversight and overpower kills the server or the fun. Because the collective aren't able to revel in anything without the say of one authority.

What makes Arelith so unique as a server is that player freedom, as well as the extremely well coded mechanics and systems made to support roleplay.

Irongron wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 9:27 am
Going forward though, I really hope we can, somehow, get back to where we were. Where our community was something to be proud of. So I'm going to to list a few issues now; things we can do to make the community better, and sadly, things I will ask DMs to be on the look out for in future.


Finally, I know that long forum posts to address issues is both outdated, and easily ignored. It can also come across as more than a little arrogant. I'm going to consider other ways to connect with the players again, and DM Straw Hat had an idea that players themselves could possibily suggest some community building ideas. I'd love to hear them. Possibly by humanizing one another we may see less of this toxicity in future.
I think that DM Straw Hat and you have a wonderful, awesome idea. I think that encouraging others to treat one another like a community by exposing everyone to one another via events or other activities is a positive solution to a massively complicated problem.

I would personally suggest more 'on the ground' communication too. More 'fire side chats'. Being more interactive with the community while serving in that role. I know the team has been doing a lot of this lately, and it's really encouraging to see.

From what I know, having been on this server for a while, there's also an air of intimidation that players both old and new feel when it comes to coming to the team whether it be for a report, bug, or even a dm event proposal. I think what you mentioned, the dehumanizing and anonyminity factor, plays a role into that too. I think another effective and positive way to bring the community together is to encourage more communication with the playerbase and the team. - The whole team, both dev and dm. Humanizing the people who spend their free time to deal with our problems or code for the server can go a really long way to changing this nature that has creeped into our community.

Anyway, thanks for everything you do. Don't give up hope! People change, and so can the community.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by KT28 » Thu May 19, 2022 6:57 pm

I'm not playing Arelith anymore, but someone pointed this thread out to me. Since this topic has now been aired publicly on the forums I'll add my two cents, briefly. Similar to Fluffybirb, the issues surrounding this topic are the reason I left the server as well. It was not a rash decision, but rather one I made after taking several months off the player side of the game and taking a great deal of reflection on the "conflict culture" that has become prominent on the server over the last year or so. Ultimately I felt that the server culture no longer lined up with what I once enjoyed about the game and I decided to leave.

It of course crossed my mind that maybe it was always this way and I was just sheltered from it until recently, but it did feel like something fundamental about the way conflict is handled had changed within Arelith's community, and it kept happening and kept happening. By no means do I maintain that I have always maintained an objective view on this topic, or that I have not made mistakes, or that I have not projected ill-intent onto someone else which ended up sabotaging my own enjoyment. But the obsession with winning at all costs, relentless PvP with very little room given for allowing a fulfilling narrative for all parties involved in a conflict, and the unprecedented severity of these behaviors felt unfixable and suffocating without some kind of drastic measure taken. For me that drastic measure was ultimately leaving.

I commend Irongron for taking action on this, and similar to someone else said in this thread, don't be too hard on yourself for making the right decision. However, it may just be one step in the right direction. This has been going on for a while and I have seen these destructive attitudes infecting more players than just those who were the ringleaders - including otherwise well-meaning, constructive, contributing members of the community who have just gotten swept up in competition and rumor-mongering. It may take more work to heal the community from what has already happened. It sounds like you're already planning on tackling that issue with the thoughtfulness and understanding it deserves; here's hoping it works out.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Salvari » Thu May 19, 2022 7:02 pm

PvP is not a big issue, it really isn't. What happens when you lose in a fight? You need to roleplay that you lost a fight, you need to avoid someone for 24 hours, and you lose the gold you had in your character's pockets. Do you want to stop fighting that person? Don't talk to them again. If they track you down despite never talking to them or about them, that's metagaming and another thing entirely.

I have a serious question, why do we have a PGCC if we don't want to encourage people to PvP well? You have arenas set up where people can endlessly practice their characters. The PGCC heavily encourages people to build strong characters. It makes it very easy to setup a potent build and learn the ins and outs of it. I don't think people should seek victory if they know they never even tried to use these tools to better themselves at the game, because it implies you want someone who 'did' practice to throw the game for your story satisfaction, and that's a big demand.

Dying in the game isn't bad. You can explain it away. 'Gods shielded me', 'I just started breathing again', 'Friends saved me', 'Resurrection ritual from my coven'. What's bad is constant harassment. No one should have to deal with harassment. If someone is harassed IC, they have the right to try and make the antagonizer go away or stop talking. Policing PvP more strictly only helps people who harass. I'd vastly prefer dying once a week than having to deal with a mixture of OOC and IC harassment. Some of the things said about my character(s) have obvious OOC motivations and I find it absolutely despicable.

If you don't want conflict with another player, make sure your character doesn't act out against them. I only see a reason for DM intervention when they break roleplay.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Northern Kings » Thu May 19, 2022 7:09 pm

I'm very uncertain about this because I've been in these incredibly toxic situations before.

I won't say that I myself didn't end up causing my own problems. I'll openly state that I received a ban for PVPing two people without having proper RP before hand leading up to the situation. It's nothing I've ever hidden or tried to suggest wasn't my fault.

That said, the greater context of that situation was very toxic. I was put into a position where I had to defend myself about eight or nine times a day. I'd end up being met with mass reports from the opposing side when they'd attack me and lose. I believe that I ended up losing a single engagement out of about fifty or sixty.

This isn't me trying to suggest 'look how great I am' by the way. It was an absolute nightmare and terrible situation. I wasn't allowed to play my character. In order to just exist, I had to fight -constantly-. Even trying to resolve this situation ICly and peacefully weren't allowed. OOCly and ICly players didn't want to resolve it unless they 'won' and no matter how many reports were sent in nothing happened.

Getting to a situation where 'Enough reports will remove you' means that this absolutely can be weaponized if it's not handled properly. When people do break rules, and don't do things the way they should, or drop the ball, they absolutely should be punished for it.

I ended up having to roll my character who had a major reward because playing it was too much stress. There was no other way to stop it. Admitting defeat on my part wasn't enough. It was a situation of 'roll or get out'. I know this isn't really supposed to be the culture here. But getting caught up in such a toxic place the ban actually helped me sort of reset and get away from something that genuinely wasn't fun for me any longer.

But it shouldn't get to a point where a player needs to worry about people OOCly conspiring against you because of things their previous characters experienced or because of past histories. But that's sometimes how things are, and it can be genuinely hard to prove.

I've spent the last number of years until only recently keeping out of larger groups and discords to try and avoid it and even that doesn't always help because of how much information is missed about changes, about what's going on, etc.

I will say - The idea of the ticket system or having more structured large scale war engagements become the norm would potentially be very good. It'd become less of "Let's show up fully warded, drop 3 lines of RP and then start killing people" and actually give people resolutions that are forced.

There won't be this "Let's fight until one side has to roll, or get banned because we've made a toxic situation and it's only a matter of time before people get frustrated, and angry with a game that's supposed to be fun"

If players can't, like adults, among themselves, determine reasonable ends that are fair for the people involved that just creates more resentment because the winners can't even be humble or fair or nice? Maybe having a system that enforces it without DM's inherently needing to step in and play babysitter will help.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Wrips » Thu May 19, 2022 8:18 pm

While my characters have not interacted with any of the parties involved in these apparently problematic events, the drama on the message boards really made it clear that something was happening.

For all involved parties, Scurvy made a very good post once about some things that a player playing a villain should be mindful of. I'll simply say that it can be extended to any controversial character, regardless of alignment.

Basically, to summarize:
If you're not narratively available, it's hard for other people to be invested in your story.

If you're not mechanically available, your opponents will feel like they're not being given a fair shot at roleplaying with you.

If you ever find yourself in a spot where you've completely denied the other side a chance to strike at you, you've failed to be a fun villain.

If you're NEVER online alone, never do things alone, never interact with the module alone, you're probably not in good shape either.

Yes this means you might get attacked/lose a fight/get killed. That's good. It means you're playing the game like a normal human being, and the people you oppose will appreciate it.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by fulminea » Thu May 19, 2022 8:19 pm

Lets give every character only 10 lives.

I say this knowing well that my characters will be dead within 1 real life month under these circumstances, but who cares.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Memes at its finest » Thu May 19, 2022 8:38 pm

fulminea wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 8:19 pm
Lets give every character only 10 lives.

I say this knowing well that my characters will be dead within 1 real life month under these circumstances, but who cares.
A better idea, lets not allow characters to last more than 1-2 RL years. A lot of people I know are worried to go back to an area they enjoy rping in years later because the character they last played there (lets say 4 characters ago) had conflict with the character who has been in that area for literal 6+ years. Characters lasting for this long just reinforces an idea that people are OOCly hostile to you when they return on a different character years later. I know this for a fact because I just spoke with a friend who was worried about playing in an area despite being gone from it for over 2-3 years.

Just to prove that this plays a key part in Arelith toxicity oocly, look at the Underdark. While I won’t name anyone, once a group was removed through IG means, a lot more people came back to the Underdark server, so many that I would get tells saying how they were so happy X characters were gone due to how they had a grasp on the server and nobody felt they could offer a breath of fresh air.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Hazard » Thu May 19, 2022 8:46 pm

Wrips wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 8:18 pm
While my characters have not interacted with any of the parties involved in these apparently problematic events, the drama on the message boards really made it clear that something was happening.

For all involved parties, Scurvy made a very good post once about some things that a player playing a villain should be mindful of. I'll simply say that it can be extended to any controversial character, regardless of alignment.

Basically, to summarize:
If you're not narratively available, it's hard for other people to be invested in your story.

If you're not mechanically available, your opponents will feel like they're not being given a fair shot at roleplaying with you.

If you ever find yourself in a spot where you've completely denied the other side a chance to strike at you, you've failed to be a fun villain.

If you're NEVER online alone, never do things alone, never interact with the module alone, you're probably not in good shape either.

Yes this means you might get attacked/lose a fight/get killed. That's good. It means you're playing the game like a normal human being, and the people you oppose will appreciate it.
"If you're NEVER online alone, never do things alone, never interact with the module alone, you're probably not in good shape either." - This part specifically stood out to me.

It's nearly impossible to police this kind of metagaming, but ... I do notice that certain groups log on and off together, and always travel together. It doesn't feel organic or immersive, like when interacting with normal players, and in this case normal just means ... People who log on whenever and log off whenever, and if they meet up with someone it's because it happened in game.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with wanting to play with some friends so you all hop on, but if you're only hopping on together all the time and involved in conflicts together all the time, it just starts feeling weird and uncomfortable. It stops feeling fair, because most other people are playing organically and can be caught alone/off guard/whatever, where as co-ordinated groups can't be. They will always have everyone online and together.

Is this maybe something we should be reporting? Is this even reportable?

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Thu May 19, 2022 8:49 pm

Memes at its finest wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 8:38 pm
fulminea wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 8:19 pm
Lets give every character only 10 lives.

I say this knowing well that my characters will be dead within 1 real life month under these circumstances, but who cares.
A better idea, lets not allow characters to last more than 1-2 RL years. A lot of people I know are worried to go back to an area they enjoy rping in years later because the character they last played there (lets say 4 characters ago) had conflict with the character who has been in that area for literal 6+ years. Characters lasting for this long just reinforces an idea that people are OOCly hostile to you when they return on a different character years later. I know this for a fact because I just spoke with a friend who was worried about playing in an area despite being gone from it for over 2-3 years.

Just to prove that this plays a key part in Arelith toxicity oocly, look at the Underdark. While I won’t name anyone, once a group was removed through IG means, a lot more people came back to the Underdark server, so many that I would get tells saying how they were so happy X characters were gone due to how they had a grasp on the server and nobody felt they could offer a breath of fresh air.
Won't change anything. People will make new characters that are a variation of their last one and keep going where they left off. They do this already, and I've seen it happen in multiple groups so it's not just one group of players doing it. My own character has been used to try and "download" information to new characters so people can hate the same people they've hated on for a decade.

A lot of these issues are very complex, with a lot of side issues tying into them. I don't think there's one simple, easy solution. But we can start by trying to be better, and encouraging each other to be better.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by l33tfragiletings » Thu May 19, 2022 9:06 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzpndHt ... ipDeFranco

Honestly the best thing to do is disregard what your friends think about people and try to learn about each other by yourself. Also remember that this is a video game made in the early 2000's and not worth in real life stress over. Ask yourself if it's really worth your time, effort, and emotions to log into a server and just get mad at people for the same old reasons. I can tell you my answer, it's not worth it.

Be mindful about other people and understand that we're collectively trying to tell a cooperative story, a story about an archipelago in Faerun called Arelith filled with our characters.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by -XXX- » Thu May 19, 2022 9:14 pm

Hazard wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 8:46 pm
"If you're NEVER online alone, never do things alone, never interact with the module alone, you're probably not in good shape either." - This part specifically stood out to me.

It's nearly impossible to police this kind of metagaming, but ... I do notice that certain groups log on and off together, and always travel together. It doesn't feel organic or immersive, like when interacting with normal players, and in this case normal just means ... People who log on whenever and log off whenever, and if they meet up with someone it's because it happened in game.
To be fair, there often are characters who genuinely and organically attract so much attention that they need to run away and hide in order to be alone.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by D4wN » Thu May 19, 2022 9:38 pm

l33tfragiletings wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 9:06 pm

Honestly the best thing to do is disregard what your friends think about people and try to learn about each other by yourself.
This, along with what IG said about echo chambers and Discords is probably in my opinion one of the biggest contributors to the current toxicity problems and creation of cliques/them vs us mentality.

Players you’ve never once interacted with OOCly or ICly suddenly hate your guts. Because maybe once you made a small mistake or your character did something to theirs that they didn’t like. Subsequently one person rages about you. Not your character, you. All their friends immediately agree. Because friends back each other up. So they start complaining in other Discords or through DMs to their friends and so on. And suddenly half the server hates you for reasons either completely false or unknown.

I’ve never seen any community environment in which malicious lies and rumours are used to turn people against each other and fuel hatred amongst people who all come here to try and enjoy this game and have fun.

As Fragile said, make up your own judgement on people. And my own advice is not to believe everything you hear or even entertain rumour mongering. I’ve never allowed toxic behaviour on my Discords. In the past I’ve offered for people to vent if they need in DMs. And this was done completely confidentially and never went anywhere. (Everyone needs to vent sometimes, we’re all only human). But in most instances vents tend to end up with screenshots of only parts of conversations and sent from person to person where people have no context, but simply create their own interpretation. This sort of behaviour needs to be addressed. I guess it’s just hard to since most of this happens hidden away from those who can in fact address it.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by PaaranDisen » Thu May 19, 2022 10:30 pm

It's interesting seeing so many trying to grapple with the fallout of bad blood on the server. The way I see it, so much story influence is tied to mechanical prowess: To prevail in pvp you need to know your way around a character sheet and the server's particular mechanical quirks (which is an OOC pool of know-how, not IC)... and pvp is a large element of factional struggle. In a literal sense if you try hard enough and do your best to tiptoe just barely within the bounds of the rules you can 'roll 20 and win the plot'. I know some people don't believe this but I don't see reason to come to any other conclusion generally speaking, an exceptions don't make the rule: just because a handful of characters who aren't built like this have made inroads doesn't refute the main point.

I gave up pretty rapidly any idea of trying to do political or other influential RP because of this. I just can't be bothered grinding out a meta pvp build to try to keep up. I prefer my character's build to reflect their in-character selves and the server intrinsically punishes players for this both mechanically (as it should kind of) and in RP (nobody is going to stop you playing you 8 wis, 8 cha killbasher as a wise, cunning social butterfly).

The idea of PvP as 'player versus player' is a toxic concept. It should in an ideal world be conceived of as CvC (Character vs. Character). If there's no existing strong and detailed story rationale you can give for why two (or more) characters cross blades then it's pointless. I think PvP often happens where there's really no story motivation, it's just 'my character doesn't like that character' or, even worse, that rationale is used as a veneer to hide an OOC dislike behind a pantomime of minimal role play. The times when PvP is not like this usually involve decent rapport between players and, at its best, an outcome influenced by how the story should best progress and not who has the biggest numbers from their OOC know-how and having run epic dungeons a hundred times more often. Unfortunately the rules aren't structured at all around this kind of healthy 'character versus character' type of role play.

I guess it ties in with the core question of Arelith, for me: Is it a role play server that includes action/pvp elements, or is it an action/pvp server that includes some role play elements? The Arelith website has as its first message to players "An oasis of roleplay and classic Dungeons and Dragons", but it really isn't. It's an action server first with non-obligatory roleplay elements. I can spend my entire character's lifespan not emoting or interacting once with another player character and the worst I might get is an RPR smack on the wrist that doesn't much slow down my grind. Once I realised that I stopped playing. It's basically meaningless. I can find a more compelling mechanical rpg experience elsewhere (though browsing the forums is fun to read all the back and forth around server design).


I think the PvP system ties into this. Yes, I know there's a 'be nice' rule of thumb and a caveat that some RP must have taken place before PvP but those are very easy hurdles to jump. If you've got a mechanical upper hand on another player you are free to do the following at your leisure:

1.) Kick other players out of a dungeon they're already in by threatening pvp (if they don't comply, fugue them and waste potentially hours of their limited free time! you can pretend and make airs that RP might resolve in order to skirt a rules breach in the situation but in truth beeline towards 'get out or I kill you' anyway)

2.) Keep another player out of an area you don't want them to be in at any given time on an arbitrary basis (IC or OOC, so long as you can conjure some kind of half-plausible IC rationale)

3.) Rush past player(s) in a dungeon and steal all the kills/loot without even interacting with them (this is especially profitable in epic dungeons or while leveling at low levels like in Skaljard and skips having to pretend you care about RP in the first place: If you're stealthed with enormous hide/MS, invisible, or hasted, or all of the above, they don't have time to react or even catch you if they do!)

4.) Scry on people whenever you want (Yes there are counters, but many are 'find out in game' and only certain builds can really counteract it solidly all the time). Want to stalk somebody on the server without their knowledge or consent? Say no more! You can spend all day watching somebody if you please.

5.) Discern the intentions of another player or group of players, then deliberately ensure the PvM content they want to interact with is inaccessible either by killing everything or just waiting there to threaten them with pvp (and either needing to retreat or be fugued and spend a deal of time unable to do that content anyway). Rinse and repeat.

An immediate objection to all of the above might be 'but this kind of behavior is not nice, it's therefore against the rules', and you'd be right if the players who enjoy doing this aren't also very well practiced at constructing the situation to look like it might just plausibly squeak into IC/within-the-rules territory. This isn't really difficult to do but most players actively choose not to do it because they don't want to ruin other player's time on the server.

A sentiment was raised that most people are good people who gets mislead by echo chambers, or only hearing one side of the story. While this is true for some I think it misses the fact that a small but determined portion of the population of any server is genuinely in it to hurt others. They don't incidentally cause disruption and distress to others, the harm is the point, and they use every manipulation and facade they can in order to pretend that that's not what they're doing while continuing to do it. PvP on Arelith is one of a handful of vehicles for this kind of actor to take advantage of (I consider uninvited scrying a form of PvP too).

What I see festering in the community is I think in part due to this, though it's not the whole picture. The system collapses under the weight of its own contradictions between mechanical prowess and roleplay. Yes, they will always have fuzzy borders and points of conflict but as it stands Arelith is bent well towards being the power build de jure and being willing to 'roll 20 and win the plot' more eagerly than an interlocutor. Until that changes (among other things), I suspect we'll keep seeing threads like this.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Hazard » Thu May 19, 2022 10:43 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 9:14 pm
Hazard wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 8:46 pm
"If you're NEVER online alone, never do things alone, never interact with the module alone, you're probably not in good shape either." - This part specifically stood out to me.

It's nearly impossible to police this kind of metagaming, but ... I do notice that certain groups log on and off together, and always travel together. It doesn't feel organic or immersive, like when interacting with normal players, and in this case normal just means ... People who log on whenever and log off whenever, and if they meet up with someone it's because it happened in game.
To be fair, there often are characters who genuinely and organically attract so much attention that they need to run away and hide in order to be alone.
That's true and fair.
I don't mean all cases of people being in groups are bad, but I think some people definitely are co-ordinating on purpose when to be on together, not just to play together in the world .. but to play only as a group together in the world, and "WIN" at everything.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Ork » Thu May 19, 2022 10:46 pm

That's not even remotely true about Paaran's post, but it was definitely an opportunity for you to wax poetic targeting perceived powergaming boogie men.

I despise that this thread has become an opportunity for everyone to take a pot shot at "what's toxic about Arelith" despite, I'd wager, the vast majority of players not even remotely effected by what Irongron is addressing.

There use to be a mantra of "bad things happen to good adventurers" and community that celebrated players that could roll with the punches and still foster wonderful roleplay. That culture should make a come back. Maybe this is just an "ok boomer" moment, though.

For the vast majority of your points, no one is entitled to an area. You have a writ but brigands are also in the area. If you want to coast through a dungeon without ever being impeded, robbed, halted or denied - there's always singleplayer.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Kiffeh » Thu May 19, 2022 10:51 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 10:46 pm
For the vast majority of your points, no one is entitled to an area. You have a writ but brigands are also in the area. If you want to coast through a dungeon without ever being impeded, robbed, halted or denied - there's always singleplayer.
I think this is a major sticking point between the two camps and also a large part of the reason that the PvP on the server causes so much sour. If your time on the server is predicated under the idea that its both entirely okay and expected to treat other players as second-class citizens (E.G., you have no rights, only privelages that I can arbitrarily take away from you with PvP at any time, such as grinding in this spot) then you have a problem, and people can and rightly should feel personally victimized by such a stance, even if it does apply to everyone equally.

Either this is a game in which we are equal players, receiving an equal chance to tell stories, avail ourselves of opportunity, and enjoy the server, or we are not. If you draw this line along the auspices of 'Who is best at PvP' always getting to control the narrative, then people who are not in that group are going to eventually conclude that this space is not for them, and they're going to leave.

To elaborate further - I think the fact that this topic comes up at least once a year on the forums, and that Irongron and other staff have repeatedly had to make appeals to the community to behave better, is extremely telling and speaks to the fact that some subsets of players on the server either don't experience the wrong end of this griefing much, or are so inundated in taking part in it themselves that they do not choose to see - the glaring issues. It is not, and should not be under any circumstances okay to tell another player 'If you don't like the way I play then go play singleplayer'. This is supposed to be a collaborative story. 'My way or the highway' is inherently one-sided, reductive and hostile.

Having said all that... I'm certainly finding it very disheartening that the overwhelming response to Irongon coming out and openly admitting that there's a huge issue with players leaving the server because of player abuse - is that the abuse doesn't exist, or that players need to learn to deal with it better. What this tells me is that the players most interested in perpetuating it aren't interested at all in listening to the needs of others, they're only interested in protecting their right to open and unrestricted PvP.
Last edited by Kiffeh on Thu May 19, 2022 11:15 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Xerah » Thu May 19, 2022 10:57 pm

I've been guild leaders and settlement leaders and have often been involved in server defining stuff. While I understand there are bad faith PVPers out there (the PVP term is just a term that is used in all games that people know; people aren't, in general, targeting players rather than characters, i.e. CvC), I have been involved in very little PVP in the whatever years I've been here.

The premise that you need to be a top tier PVPer to get anything done is just false. I agree with your comment that there are a lot of non-nice things people can do that make the place unfun, I don't think this is as widespread as people think. Unlike the 1 bad apple saying, one bad D&D player does ruin the whole experience. If I had to be a top tier PVP to exist in this community, I would have never been able to do any of those things. I can't explain why people keep trying to suggest it only works if you're a great PVPer unless the group of "bad players" is just small and I've been "lucky" not to be "targeted".

Some targeted attempts to fix this is more than reasonable. That whole response reads like a way to take some shots at people/the server (like Ork said as I was writing this)
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by D4wN » Thu May 19, 2022 11:17 pm

Truth be told. I don’t think PVP is the problem at all. I’ve experienced a decent amount of PvP, both wins and losses and some of them have been great. Others not so much. The key to PvP, and this entire game, is respect and moderation.

Don’t go after the same people again and again, if you’ve had a win, be respectful to your fellow players. Don’t continue to goad them and tell all you’re friends how bad they are at the game, pointing fingers and laughing. Don’t constantly run the same runic dungeon over and over, claiming it as your own and kill anyone standing in your way. Simply be respectful, collaborate and just don’t overdo things or push your narrative onto those who make it clear they don’t wish to participate.

Equally I’m well aware of other sides using this standpoint to hide behind being able to taunt others IG. Actions have consequences. If you’re uncomfortable with pvp, you can practice. I think that’s what PGCC is also for. I doubt many people will tell you to go away if you ask on the Arelith Discord if they are willing to teach you. I bet you’ll find many who will gladly help. You'll likely find that the better you get at it, the more enjoyable it becomes. If you don’t want to do PvP at all? Then take that into consideration with your own actions when playing a game in which PVP forms a part.

I think it’s relatively easy to avoid PvP on Arelith, bar a few exceptions in which it may be pushed onto you. Which brings us then back to the issue of OOC cliques ganging up on people. Hence… moderation. PvP should also not be the first thing to tap into when dealing with conflict in my opinion. It should enhance a story and used sparingly, not be the story.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Richrd » Fri May 20, 2022 12:39 am

PaaranDisen wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 10:30 pm
Edited all the text out because the post being quoted is right up there and I don't want to bloat the page further than is necessary.
Okay, I generally agree with most things you said there but I just want to get into these 5 points (yes I have 6 listed here, consider the paragraph right after the fifth one as number six) and give my thoughts on them.
1.) There can be perfectly reasonable situations where what you describe here makes perfect sense. A good natured cleric or a paladin teams up with a stranger for writs or even an epic dungeon. The stranger suddenly proceeds to conjure up cleary evil companions (shadows, necromancy, fiends, etc.). With any of these examples I think the player of the "good" character is even being extra courteous by allowing you to ICly pack your bags and leave without forcing PvP onto you. Many more examples for unexpected conflicts of interest/alignment could be made here but I will leave it at this here.
2.) There is no arbitrary basis. Either it makes sense and you just ought to deal with it that your character can't go to places as a consequence of their own actions / who they are OR it is not justified, you report it to a DM and it will get taken care of.
3.) I am 99% sure that everything described here is a break of the rules.
4.) Sneaking always comes with inherent risks and scrying, while superior to sneaking, can still be countered. Both methods are completely fine and I don't see how these are related to these other examples you give here.
5.) You mean laying a trap for others? Again very courteous of that person to not just attack you after the initial interaction but to instead give you the chance to leave and do literally anything else.
6.) This is the main point why I am getting into this again. You are basically implying that the DMs are (at least in some capacity) failing at their tasks and incapable of discerning what is and what isn't a rule break.


EDIT: Xerah is also spitting massive truth bombs here.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by ImWithThisGuy » Fri May 20, 2022 1:34 am

Salvari wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 7:02 pm
PvP is not a big issue, it really isn't. What happens when you lose in a fight? You need to roleplay that you lost a fight, you need to avoid someone for 24 hours, and you lose the gold you had in your character's pockets. Do you want to stop fighting that person? Don't talk to them again. If they track you down despite never talking to them or about them, that's metagaming and another thing entirely.

I have a serious question, why do we have a PGCC if we don't want to encourage people to PvP well? You have arenas set up where people can endlessly practice their characters. The PGCC heavily encourages people to build strong characters. It makes it very easy to setup a potent build and learn the ins and outs of it. I don't think people should seek victory if they know they never even tried to use these tools to better themselves at the game, because it implies you want someone who 'did' practice to throw the game for your story satisfaction, and that's a big demand.

Dying in the game isn't bad. You can explain it away. 'Gods shielded me', 'I just started breathing again', 'Friends saved me', 'Resurrection ritual from my coven'. What's bad is constant harassment. No one should have to deal with harassment. If someone is harassed IC, they have the right to try and make the antagonizer go away or stop talking. Policing PvP more strictly only helps people who harass. I'd vastly prefer dying once a week than having to deal with a mixture of OOC and IC harassment. Some of the things said about my character(s) have obvious OOC motivations and I find it absolutely despicable.

If you don't want conflict with another player, make sure your character doesn't act out against them. I only see a reason for DM intervention when they break roleplay.

Normally I make it a point to never call people out directly, but I feel there are great points here that are lost due to being made from the wrong perspective. And I'll add my two cents to the mix while I'm at it.

PvP is Not the underlaying issue, it's true. I think the majority of our players agree with this; where issues arise, they are almost always due to the individuals, rather than their avenues. That being said, PvP absolutely CAN be the cause of issues. This is not an arena server, and god forbid it ever become one, but PvP is still an integral part of the setting we share. So to limit or remove it is the wrong choice, I think.

That said, to answer your question.. Players are not, SHOULD not be encouraged to be 'good at PvP'. It's like expecting professional chess players to also be excellent boxers (Chess-Boxing is a thing). But don't misunderstand, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being good at PvP. If a player ever feels the need to 'be good at PvP', it is entirely culture driven, and not at all by server design. Players typically care about being good at it because they don't want to be victimized by it. Regardless, the result of this is that some players with strong PvP skills are desensitized to how much damage they can really inflict. And as for "throwing the game", I wouldn't say I expect people to do it. But genuinely, it would be nice if we ALL did it collectively. The server is meant to be a "Give and Take", and if people are only allowing their personal skill at PvP to garner results in RP, that's not very giving.

Entire stories are often warped around PvP, and they have a nasty habit of escalating themselves. One person loses to another and decides to show up next time with some buddies. They get their revenge and take the guy out, but then he turns around and does the exact same thing. Then both parties get involved and suddenly two large groups are at odds, with a dozen or two players now being affected and invested. The beginning hardly matters anymore, because with that many people involved, it's hard to keep track of things. And there are plenty of new things always happening. But this isn't the point I want to make, because this is entirely based on individual perspective; plenty of players have the presence of mind to avoid these needless conflicts.



More openly, and to Irongron as well: Players need to learn how to escalate things properly, and to recognize when and how things have gone too far. Because while pvp can go too far, it is the slandering, and crap mouthing that causes the most problems and struggles between players OOC. And it is the second part that makes this so hard to address. It's human nature to judge other people, but we need to be clear to players that judgement MUST wait until they have a clear mind. Sadly, there's not much way to do that effectively..

Still, I think a reminder that if players start seeing conflict emerging and growing at an alarming rate, it needs to be communicated immediately; That is, with the opposing side. It will only grow and cause more damage if it's allowed to, and it is from that point that the DM's need to get involved. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Additionally, I honestly think a formal re-writing of the rules is slowly becoming inevitable. I've dealt with them for literally more than half of my life, so they come as second nature to me, even as vague as they are. And somewhat subjective! Someone may think they are "Being Nice" by offering someone antagonizing roleplay. And to an extent they'd be right, but it's assumptions like that which lead to a disconnect, and all the issues it brings with it. So that is one suggestion:

Rewriting the rules to include definitive examples of what breaches them. The rules themselves are fine, but because they are taken from the perspective of server design from over a decade ago. A short and concise rephrase would account for many misunderstandings, or confused new players. For example, slandering and name calling are a breach of the Be Nice rule, and yet anywhere this rule is posted, it is usually generalized into "Harassment". A few more specific words would go a long way.

Beyond this, players are encouraged to play and enjoy the game first, and only second are the rules applied. This used to work well with a small playerbase, because common courtesy was easier to manage. But with hundreds of players, If someone skips the introduction (at least partially) on joining the server, it is far too hard to get their attention about server rules afterwards. At least, until it's too late and they've already gone too far. Players can go months, or some even years without fully understanding the rules. The journal is completely empty at the moment, and the website's front page is a stark generalization. This is not an excuse for ignorance, far from it, but I think it's important that rules be determined and unanimously understood before anyone starts playing.. well. Anything- be it a sport, a board game, A TCG, or of course, a Persistent World.


Another interesting idea may be to have interval server announcements reminding players of individual rules, and what is included under them. Something like:

"We hope you're enjoying your time on Arelith! But please remember that other players can only enjoy themselves if everyone is playing Nice. We do not tolerate any form of bullying, name-calling, rumormongering, harassment, or spiteful behavior. Failure to comply is a breach of Arelith's Be Nice rule, and punishments will be passed out as needed. Please continue making Arelith a fun place to play for everyone!"

Or
"We hope you're enjoying your time on Arelith! But we want to offer a reminder to all players to respect the server Setting. Death is very real, NPCs are very real, and your characters should treat them so. The world is only as real as we make it, and if characters are treating it like it's a game, that's what it becomes. Help keep Arelith's setting immersive and strong!

Of course, these were only thought up in a matter of one night. It's up to server staff and administration to decide what phrasing fits best. Hope that at least helps a little!

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by DM Monkey » Fri May 20, 2022 1:52 am

Wings of Peace wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 10:58 pm
Good riddance, nothing of value lost. It's nice to see Be Nice actually getting used as something other than an anti-cybering rule and hopefully this will have a chilling effect on all the people in this thread that seem to think the state of things was fine. If it's that confusing where the line between abuse and immersion is for some people then I hope they get ban hammered next because the status quo of being told to assume the best from the community's worst /was/ favoritism. Enforce the damn rules. The server is almost entirely adults there's no reason to coddle the scummy ones.
Take a big step back and read what you've typed twice over. Then go and read the Be Nice rule.

Try harder! Help set a good example of roleplay for the server culture.


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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by MalKalz » Fri May 20, 2022 3:04 am

Wings of Peace wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 10:58 pm
Good riddance, nothing of value lost. It's nice to see Be Nice actually getting used as something other than an anti-cybering rule and hopefully this will have a chilling effect on all the people in this thread that seem to think the state of things was fine. If it's that confusing where the line between abuse and immersion is for some people then I hope they get ban hammered next because the status quo of being told to assume the best from the community's worst /was/ favoritism. Enforce the damn rules. The server is almost entirely adults there's no reason to coddle the scummy ones.
This is unfortunately the poor behaviour Arelith is better off without. It goes entirely against what the server is attempting to foster and there is nothing nice about the attitude presented.

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