Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

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Skibbles
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Skibbles » Sat May 21, 2022 4:38 am

It takes me about a year just to start a character arc much less do everything I could possibly do within that window. Heck sometimes it takes me multiple months to ruminate and write an IG book expanding on character development by the ongoing interactions from other PCs.

It's just false, and doesn't approach the matter at hand anyway.

Whether 2 months or 20 years old any player's character, because this is about players, is just as capable of badly handling conflict until it metastasizes into something intolerable.

In IGs second post in the topic it's already put pretty clearly that 'bad blood' was past the fourth wall and involving PCs both new and old and their alts sharing the same or suspiciously similar goals in what seems like, basically, a meta-war.

If a player can make a brand new PC and pursue the exact same goals of their last one, or an old PC sticks around pursuing the same stale goal for years - these are both the same problem just with two different names.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Hazard
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Hazard » Sat May 21, 2022 5:30 am

I don't think limiting players to only having short term characters would help anything.

1-2 years, to me, is a very short term character. That's probably the shortest I would ever play a character and I don't think I've ever, in my 15 years here, played a character from creation to completion in only 1-2 years. If I have, it was a character that didn't work and was rolled, or one that got mechanically bodied by an update.

We all have different playstyles and different lives with different schedules. We all invest different amounts of effort and resources into our characters. Sometimes, because of how my life works, I need to step away for 6 months at a time. Sometimes I need to step away for a year. Even without needing to step away that timeframe is just very short to me, and any timeframe at all seems weird.

Players have always decided the length of their own characters stories, given certain exceptions. The Beast eating your soul, being executed for crimes, dying in an epic quest, etc (none of which I think we even do anymore). Instead of forcing characters to delete after an arbitrary time (which I think is a horrible idea), why not introduce a few permadeath options here and there? I've always felt that fighting Paush should be a a permadeath kind of situation, for example.

Also I don't see why limiting people to short term characters would help this situation, when most of the time, in my experience, it is new characters rolled up by friend groups simultanously that cause PvP related problems and not an old character. Most old characters I know of are very well roleplayed and if (if) they have political power it's because that character's player puts in ungodly amount of their own time and resources into creating fun and roleplay for others. Why would I want to see them deleted for no reason?

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Snake2512
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Snake2512 » Sat May 21, 2022 5:54 am

I'm somewhat comfortable with being frank as one of the main people at the centre of recent controversy. I will be rather transparent and say yes I have been permabanned for what amounted to bad PVP habits and being a nexus of dissatisfaction in the community. As someone close to the heart of the issue I can say rather safely no one has really touched upon what led to the issues or rather what allowed problems to never be defused and persist in toxicity.

I am not sure how transparent I am allowed to be and I apologise if I say things poorly but the problem is not one of DM transparency, the issue is the playerbase rewards each other for lying to their fellow players. Throughout my two years of conflict I have often attempted to approach people one on one to resolve any issues. I don't like people feeling anxious and I don't like them to be upset but I will be frank, often times the players in question did precisely the same thing I have done but to other members in the community. They are always dismissive, excuses are made and when it becomes clear to me they actually just expect me to play by different rules and to hamstring my roleplay, then I become very guarded. I question the intentions of my fellow players when they will refuse to acknowledge how they upset other members of the community and expect me to change. There was in fact one situation where I had DMs observe a chat with myself and another player. I heard about how upset he felt when I acted a certain way. I of course apologised and raised an issue though that he had done something rather religiously to another player and it was not acknowledged, there was no apology to the aggressed player. When the victim card is often played over and over to someone OOCly but no change to their actual behaviour happens in game, then I become very reluctant and guarded around said players. Whilst I do not want anyone to feel anxious around me in game, when I am approached out of character and the person in question doesn't wish to truly move forward in ways where both concerns are addressed, it can feel disingenuous. When so many play the victim card but then say the opposite in their private discords or do precisely the actions I am accused of, it breaks down any ability to move forward or resolve conflict. When you as a player know other players are actively lying to you or being disingenuous in their intentions, it creates the toxic atmosphere that leads to this. Now I do not condone the attitude of 'X did Y to me so I am going to do it back' that is very dumb. Yet changing the attitude of the community towards roleplay can only happen if those who talk the talk, also walk the walk. Example is everything. You cannot ever expect players to change or adapt to your preferred roleplay style if they know you're hypocritical or lying.

I have been in close contact with the DM Team on how I can become a better roleplayer, how I can change and adapt. There was one time in my history I was asked to change my player name and play a different character. I was also advised to guard my identity closely. The moment my character entered into conflict and was killed, I had no less than eight different people probing me on 'rumors I was playing again'. These people I thought I was on good terms with and were my friends but thanks to discord logs leaking to me, I became swiftly aware they were just contacting me to confirm my identity for other cliques who hated me as a player. It really crushes someone's motivation to trust their fellow players when people will approach you on behalf of others, boldly lie about their intentions and every time I asked who had spread the rumor, they couldn't tell me. It was always a different excuse. Yet I already knew who was at the heart of it because I had eyes on the discord groups in question. One of these discord groups was actually an old public SS13 server so it wasn't too hard for that one to stumble into. There is a distinct culture of leaking discord logs, lying to other players faces just to get them in trouble and other really, really terrible things. When one is exposed to this long enough, it is no wonder it is so hard to address issues in the game because there is no atmosphere of trust. I am reluctant to write this off as 'ah, if only discord wasn't a thing' because this isn't a problem that can be just thrust upon communication software. It's inherent to the attitudes of the community that people are willing to lie to other people over winning in a video game.

The reality is its a game and people are going to prioritise them and their own friends enjoyment first. I am not too proud to admit that I have done this. I often roleplayed and conducted my character in a way that prioritised what I believed to be the authenticity of the character first. I did things because it made sense to do so, I cared about mechanics so I could play a 'tough guy' character. I tried to understand mechanics better so when I portrayed a war veteran and jaded fighters, I could ICly back up his words and the backstory I wrote for them. As such I became far more concerned in the authenticity of my characters to the point it began infringing on others enjoyment of the game. This happens because I am of course not the only person trying to play big tough dudes who crush 24/7. Other people want to play these characters and when they meet in game, the only way to discern who is a better fighter is through PVP. Yet if you win and kill someone who was built up to be this BIG DEAL it often isn't taken well because players, myself included, often don't want the illusion of their character shattered. It can be a harsh arc to build up so much atmosphere around a character but have it quashed because they lost a fight. As such people will often lie to their friends, lie to DMs and lie to other members of the community about the circumstances so others don't take it seriously. I'll admit, I've done that before on my character Lysanthir where I got firmly crushed in a fight on shadow wharftown and I tried to make an excuse to a friend. He did the right thing and called me out on it and we just laughed before I just admitted, yeah, I got crushed fair and square. Nothing more to it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being bad at PVP, I certainly am, the issues with it is when you build yourself up and smugly remark to others how good you are, only to lose and because you feel like you have a reputation to maintain begin pathologically lying up and down to both players and the team alike. I've been through that phase of pride but I was even happier when I shed it and incorporated the weakness for the sake of story telling. Yet it comes back to the crux of the issue, our willingness to lie to our friends and other players for the sake of appearing as true role models in the community.

I wasn't going to really post anything or contribute because I was done and very accepting of my circumstances. My ban isn't one I've been upset at or angry, I never tried to rebuke the team and simply accepted it. Yet reading this forum thread now and seeing many people publish manifestos on what the true problem is has somewhat upset me. Often these people I used to be very close to but since grew distant and I can say safely a lot of it was lined with hypocrisy and deceit. We will never grow as a community if we keep lying about circumstances, making excuses for things we did wrong and I advise extreme caution when dealing with anyone who is so quick to flaunt their virtues and how they do things the right way (ironic given my manifesto I just wrote up I know). I knew many of these people personally and it genuinely is bitter to know how boldly they will even take their deceit to the forums.

I have done things I consider very poor form in my two years of playing here. I have been angry at players doing things I have done myself down the track. Yet I can safely say I never lied to other people OOC to get an advantage, I never sent people to others to figure out who they were playing or discern who their new faction is so I can oppose them. When it came to OOC communication I was always very transparent. If I didn't like you, I didn't ever respond or I had you blocked. If I was going to say something negative to you, I just told you to report it to the DMs and to let them handle it. I never pretended to be anyone's friend just to exploit them nor mine information for them I would then take to others/use in game. I didn't ever issue false apologies.

If you're going to heal and move forward as a community, stop rewarding duplicity and deceit. Be honest with yourselves and others. The problem is not in how little DMs tell you, it is how often other players will lie.

Denny Lynndain-Walvish, certified rude boy - Rolled
Lysanthir Ellenocen - Shelved
Reznov Willensbane - Rolled
Vald Machjarak - Rolled
Gaderel Anjou, certified lawful good - Active
Rodolfo Duskvale, certified funny guy - Rolled
Ghug Sord - Extinguished


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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sat May 21, 2022 7:21 am

Snake2512 wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 5:54 am
You can read it right above me.
I just wanted to say thanks for writing this. I don't know that everyone else will see it the same way, but for me it humanizes you as a player and I at least can see the world through your eyes a bit. I can't say you always handled things well or didn't over do it on pvp, we wouldn't be here were that not the case, but I can say from a few brief interactions with your character you were also not the boogie man so many have made you out to be.

As for the bulk of your post, self-righteous hypocrisy and duplicity are both part of the human condition. It sucks that a game that's meant to be fun is where you learned that lesson, but it's certainly not limited to this community and you were going to learn it one way or another eventually. Use that knowledge to be vigilant going forward, but don't ever let it make you bitter. Life is too short to let others drag you down into the mire.

Good luck out there.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by A little fellow » Sat May 21, 2022 7:22 am

I think the healthiest way to play this game is to go into it accepting that you are going to have some really bad experiences. Plenty of times I've had to just get on with it when another player takes liberties with the trust you give them, plenty of times players will attempt to straight up bully you for their own personal satisfaction.

Nobody plays video games to get those feelings (actually it's the opposite, sometimes we play these games to avoid those feelings!), but at the same time plenty of people derive their own enjoyment from making others feel that way.

I truly believe the only way to help certain communities improve is to speak honestly with people in your playerbase, and encouraging the healthy players in other playerbases to do the same. Nobody listens to "outsiders" .. lots of people will listen to friends. If you deem a friend of yours to be playing the game in an unhealthy way, tell them.

Regardless though, just trust people. The amount of bad experiences you'll have in Arelith will be 50/50 whether you chose to place your trust in someone or not .. but the amount of great experiences you'll have in Arelith will increase if you just trust the stranger.

---

As for long term characters being stale. As someone who's biased because I played the same character for a few years, in my time I saw plenty of short term characters who were just going through the motions. At the end of the day a characters worth to the server isn't measured in years, but in how the player choses to play them.
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by neverwinternightly » Sat May 21, 2022 8:11 am

Snake2512 wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 5:54 am
Problems with lying, toxic echo chambers, etc.
Over the past year and a half, I have been far more involved in this community than is healthy. I have been between a lot of different factions and been able to not only experience the rp of many different groups of players, but also how they conduct themselves OOC.

In all but a couple of these situations, I have inevitably excused myself from the faction discord even if I still roleplay with some of the characters because this problem is so pervasive. People badmouthing others players, people spreading rumors in an effort to turn people against others, posts of snippets of IC conversations that frame certain players as bad for the community. It happens everywhere. And if you don't see it, I'd either count yourself lucky or consider looking a little harder because it is absolutely there.

The above is already problematic enough when you just consider the handful of active voices in these groups perpetuating toxicity between one another to make certain their negative opinion is heard and felt and sticks around, and that isn't even mentioning minimally-involved parties. For every player responding to rumors, badmouthing, and various other vitriol, there are likely two or three others that aren't that involved who read it, quietly absorb it, and move on with their day. Over time, that can and will quickly taint their opinions on people they've never even met. That then leads to people looking for the worst in others, and, as is oft the case, if you come into a situation assuming the worst, you're typically going to find it. And then the cycle continues!

I haven't read too much of this thread, so apologies if this has already been brought up, but plenty of this seems like it stems from the "game within the game" that takes places for some people on Arelith. Hostility often reaches a point where groups are done roleplaying with each other for whatever reason, and so it devolves into a game of "who can bash the other off the server faster?" or "how fast can I get other party banned?". I don't really know what the solution to this is, mind you. Maybe it'd be mechanical changes, but I know those might turn people away from the server. Maybe it'd be rule changes, but rules can be danced around.

I really think, as a handful in this thread have pointed out, it's on the community. If you see others acting inappropriately, call them out for it. If you manage one of these faction discords, nip the toxic conversation in the bud and tell people to take it to the DMs. Way too often, both IC and OOC, people notice these problems and just join in instead of trying to work towards resolution, and then they'll cry out about how they did everything they could.

If you have problems with another player and your solution is to spit on them, glare at them, and otherwise ignore them IC while also badmouthing them OOC, that isn't doing anyone favors. Not you. Not them. Not anyone in the community.

I appreciate plenty of the discourse I've read in here as well as Irongron speaking up. Hopefully the server, self included, can start to shift into a better place where this is a less common issue.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Salasker » Sat May 21, 2022 8:49 am

I rarely post these days, but I would like to add some hope to this conversation. 90+% of my interactions over the 10+ years I've been playing have been positive. I have made great friends, some on the far side of the globe, because of you people. I am always pleasantly surprised when I meet a new character and find out that they were also someone memorable from X number of years ago, and recall me fondly as well.

I also receive at least one or two AMA tells a week, and that gives me no small amount of joy as well. I recently found out that a new character I have met is the same player that helped me when I had only been on the server for a few weeks. Involved me in stories, explained things, made me feel welcome.

Arelith is many things to many people, and I fully admit I used to get angry over pixels. Considering that we all spend valuable time (sometimes too much, I know!) that's understandable to a degree. In the same way, I have literally laughed out loud until I was gasping, and have felt great sadness. Stories, good stories, do that; and there have been so many I have heard and been a part of over the years...

I think that remembering there is another human being on the other side of that little sprite is perhaps the only real advice I can give to anyone that takes the game too seriously. People come here for all sorts of reasons, some enjoy the thrill of PvP, some love the mechanics, some like to treat the game as a glorified typing simulator (I lean to that last one). Some, it's a chance to go out and kill monsters and find loot, some it's a hobby, some it's nearly a full-time job. For some people, it's an escape, or a way to interact that they're not comfortable or able to do in real life. Certainly, two years of isolation has let all of us know what that can be like.

I think for everyone, though, it's a way to find like-minded people that enjoy this... thing, this idea that started long before most of us ever heard of Arellith. It's the thing we all have in common...

Remembering there's a living, breathing person on the other side that has common ground with you, that wants to play... Dialing up that empathy a bit, even when you want to throw your keyboard out a window, might be a choice we all should consider.

And I just think that's something worth saying along with acknowledging that, yes, as a community, we have some work to do as well.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Watchful Glare » Sat May 21, 2022 10:59 am

Skibbles wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 2:27 pm
I've been on the far periphery of all of this, utterly unaffected as a player or even any of my PCs, but still I occasionally heard the rare rumor or grumble even as I am in actually zero discord groups besides the portrait one I joined the other day. Heck this is still vague enough that I'm not 100% sure this is about what I think it might be.

Even so - it was pretty clear something was wrong. I still think something may be wrong.

IG's nuclear options sound appealing if I dredge up some unpleasant memories.

People aren't giving anyone fair options. No, not an pre-consequence 'out', but just options for characters to agreeably end their disagreement. Just go have a duel or something - leader vs leader. Set a stake and just do it and get it over with.

Sure it's an arguably 'Lawful' thing to do, this is just an example anyway, but who really cares when the alternative is a perpetual grinding hellscape of ganks until an entire timezone is an uninhabited wasteland.

It's just tiring to see the same one option disguised as two, with both of them intolerable to any player looking to enjoy themselves.

"Either you do [impossible or highly unpleasant capitulation] or face my [unending one-line 4v1 turboganks]."

Sometimes even when PCs do go with the former, to the letter, then it merely signals and invites the demanding party to just demand more - enough to where it seems clear that the first demand was only made to nudge the PC into accepting the only real outcome the aggressor wanted which was [unending one-line 4v1 turboganks] in the first place.


It's just a horrid way to treat players, in the end, even when it can be completely justified as an IC thing to do. Dogmatic adherence to being in character at all times sound good in writing, but if someone is IC 100% of the time it's also tacitly admitting that 0% of that time is dedicated to considering other players and how to interact with them as actual people.

Or in other words exactly what Xerah said as I typed this out:
Xerah wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 2:16 pm
One of the player's roleplay is very disruptive [...] all in the name of "that's what my character would do". Nothing they are doing is against the rules of the game, but it's making the other players very uncomfortable and killing their will to play the game which puts the game at risk.
It's just a psychotic way to play Arelith, frankly.
As usual, Skibbles has put it as it is. But usually it's not the only issue, the brinkmanship that comes with it. Bad faith actors do what they can get away with, simply put. Exactly like this, and it's exacerbated by the following point:
Hazard wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 8:46 pm
It's nearly impossible to police this kind of metagaming, but ... I do notice that certain groups log on and off together, and always travel together. It doesn't feel organic or immersive, like when interacting with normal players, and in this case normal just means ... People who log on whenever and log off whenever, and if they meet up with someone it's because it happened in game.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with wanting to play with some friends so you all hop on, but if you're only hopping on together all the time and involved in conflicts together all the time, it just starts feeling weird and uncomfortable. It stops feeling fair, because most other people are playing organically and can be caught alone/off guard/whatever, where as co-ordinated groups can't be. They will always have everyone online and together.

Is this maybe something we should be reporting? Is this even reportable?
Many of the things I'd have brought up attention to, someone has mentioned it already. And it's pretty clear some people are blind to this issue, or are simply unaware it's not something new or a recent development, or an isolated incident. It's been ocurring for years.

If it happens once you can say it was a mistake. Everyone has lapses in judgement. If it happens a few times over a small period of time, maybe they were going through something. If they have been having this issue for years now, sixty seven people without any connection between them have had exactly the same type of awful experience, to the point where their presence alone has grown bad enough to start depopulating a server because nothing changed, making an ever increasing number of players quit, accepting that the server just doesn't align with what they want?

Then that has become an issue.
KT28 wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 6:57 pm
I'm not playing Arelith anymore, but someone pointed this thread out to me. Since this topic has now been aired publicly on the forums I'll add my two cents, briefly. Similar to Fluffybirb, the issues surrounding this topic are the reason I left the server as well. It was not a rash decision, but rather one I made after taking several months off the player side of the game and taking a great deal of reflection on the "conflict culture" that has become prominent on the server over the last year or so. Ultimately I felt that the server culture no longer lined up with what I once enjoyed about the game and I decided to leave.

It of course crossed my mind that maybe it was always this way and I was just sheltered from it until recently, but it did feel like something fundamental about the way conflict is handled had changed within Arelith's community, and it kept happening and kept happening. By no means do I maintain that I have always maintained an objective view on this topic, or that I have not made mistakes, or that I have not projected ill-intent onto someone else which ended up sabotaging my own enjoyment. But the obsession with winning at all costs, relentless PvP with very little room given for allowing a fulfilling narrative for all parties involved in a conflict, and the unprecedented severity of these behaviors felt unfixable and suffocating without some kind of drastic measure taken. For me that drastic measure was ultimately leaving.
Northern Kings wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 7:09 pm
That said, the greater context of that situation was very toxic. I was put into a position where I had to defend myself about eight or nine times a day. I'd end up being met with mass reports from the opposing side when they'd attack me and lose. I believe that I ended up losing a single engagement out of about fifty or sixty.

This isn't me trying to suggest 'look how great I am' by the way. It was an absolute nightmare and terrible situation. I wasn't allowed to play my character. In order to just exist, I had to fight -constantly-. Even trying to resolve this situation ICly and peacefully weren't allowed. OOCly and ICly players didn't want to resolve it unless they 'won' and no matter how many reports were sent in nothing happened.

Getting to a situation where 'Enough reports will remove you' means that this absolutely can be weaponized if it's not handled properly. When people do break rules, and don't do things the way they should, or drop the ball, they absolutely should be punished for it.

I ended up having to roll my character who had a major reward because playing it was too much stress. There was no other way to stop it. Admitting defeat on my part wasn't enough. It was a situation of 'roll or get out'. I know this isn't really supposed to be the culture here. But getting caught up in such a toxic place the ban actually helped me sort of reset and get away from something that genuinely wasn't fun for me any longer.

But it shouldn't get to a point where a player needs to worry about people OOCly conspiring against you because of things their previous characters experienced or because of past histories. But that's sometimes how things are, and it can be genuinely hard to prove.
Fluffybirb wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 5:23 pm
This thread is exactly why I stopped playing arelith. My main was a shifter, the worst class by far for PvP and some took advantage of that. PvP negates any RP, meaning there is nothing to be done with the power builds show up to murder everyone again.

There aren't conciqences on arelith for those who focus on PvP first. Not saying it's wrong to live PvP, but there are some who use it to negate any RP or conciqences. And when those conciquences DO come in the form of a faction war, DMs prevent it. IE the Dale and Myon.

I love arelith and I love so many of the interactions I had here. 3k hours spent and I have so many memories. But the flaws were just too much for me.

When you hemorrhage players who have been here for years because of the current climate, something is going wrong. The UD lost almost all its mainstays in a week because of what is talked about here.

Tbh I think there should be more enforcement when it comes to alignments. Does a good aligned person hunt others to the ends of the island purely based on rumor? Does a good aligned person slaughter a city because it exists? Why do gods of good not care their clerics and paladins use their powers to do pretty shady stuff?

That's my rant, but I honestly hope all this can be mended so I can return.
There is a lot of virtue signaling that doesn't meet the objective reality experienced by enough people to fill two university classrooms at this point.

Trying to push "People are mad because they do be losing PvP and so that's why they mad" and try to shove it under the rug, deviating from the subject.

If it were so simple, none of this would have happened. In my experience, the source of disgruntlement stems from the following: Discord Coordination. Acting in bad faith. Keeping OOC Grudges. Keeping multiple characters in different factions who all help one another. A great number of people in the same faction doing the same. Harassing different characters from the same player. Said PvP (Discord Coordinated) being an affair of dropping in numbers onto a place or against a single target. Either immediately demanding total and absolute surrender, or start belittling and/or insulting the victim until they snap back verbally, therefore violating your NAP and justifying their murder. Doing it repeatedly. Refusal to engage in any other avenue of conflict that is not PvP. Refusal to communicate OOC. Refusal to offer any terms for de-escalation that is not completely extreme and incredibly humiliating. (As seen in Skibble's post). Even after accepting those terms, a new reason is made up to just keep attacking anyways. Trying to report any and all interactions with those who are the 'enemy', in an effort to cloud DM visibility. Breaking into quarters to stealing things, over and over. Constant fixture theft/destruction.

And the list just goes on.

And I would really, really like if none of that were true, because then at least I'd be able to be able to enjoy the server as I used to, in my ignorance. But even after taking an extended break and coming back it didn't take two weeks before I saw was still happening.

Irongron's words are an unfortunate consequence after being too nice and having too high an expectation, that people could be genuinely nice instead of treating the rules like a wire fence.
Biz here was a constant subliminal hum, and death the accepted punishment for laziness, carelessness, lack of grace, the failure to heed the demands of an intricate protocol.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Xarge VI » Sat May 21, 2022 12:40 pm

Thanks to my unsocial nature I have largely been able to stay outside these player group versus player group conflicts. But I have definitely experienced them in character in the most unpleasant ways especially when I briefly played a character involved in settlement politics recently. It was very disheartening when I tried to explore imaginative ways for them to plot against one another only to be stonewalled with “I just don’t want to have anything to do with them either you’re with me or against me” In character.

Maybe I could’ve gotten something done but working with politics in real life I just got very quickly tired of dealing with that in my free time combined with me getting into rl art projects. Here’s me apologizing for the sudden disappearance of my settlement leader character.

That being said, personally I try to always think of an angle or way my character can be leveraged. Be it threatening a sentimental relic or someone the character cares about. The options really are endless.

I think that there main difference between low rpr and high rpr players is mentality without going to the exact rpr numbers. The skill and the gravity of presence I think come with experience in playing this age-old game but at some point there is a change from playing “My character” to playing “a character” to exaggerate.

Unfortunately you can’t force a mentality change. A player just got to grow into it.

The problem in faction conflict really stems from that. Neither side is willing to have their character humiliated in defeat nor they really have considered the parameters where their character/faction is defeated before jumping into conflict.

What might be worth exploring is enforcing or encouraging the end to a conflict. Possibly by the way of DM inquiring from the faction leaders involved in a conflict the conditions where their character will back down to brood in their own corners and rewarding the players involved accordingly for a smooth conflict- or applying negative pressure if the conflict becomes prolonged and stale. Or better yet apply an expectation for the faction leaders to give that information proactively before jumping into conflict.

It might not solve all the issues but at least the end of a conflict has been conceived.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by -stick- » Sat May 21, 2022 12:53 pm

Arelith is great I've been hooked since 2018 but it's not a safe place.

I've been a victim to some of the stuff mentioned above, it can ruin your day but I kept logging:), the good stuff overcome the bad.

Sadly there's no way to stop 3ed party communication if it's not discord it will be something else but maybe if a few things would change to make it harder on such groups?

Here are some ideas, could have been mentioned already please don't kill me if they did ;)

limiting further pvp at settlement's(if players want to fight they can take it outside or hire an assassin's to make someone disappear quietly).

Cutting down portal access for surface/UD leaving only the ones closer to epic content.

Scry could have some rare material requirement or limited to scry station's something to make the one preforming it to think twice before he/she attempt's one.

Last one would be party size could be limited to four players, this would make it harder for kill squads to operate and I don't think such change would effect adventuring much.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Richrd » Sat May 21, 2022 2:06 pm

Speaking of safe places.
Let's talk about safe spaces. Because Arelith is definitely, out of all the popular (and by popular I mean the ones that actually do have an active community and don't just sit with 2 players at the bottom of the server list) the most safe space-ish server out there.

Many conversations and topics are considered outright offensive and bannable.
The "my kids play here" argument led to the server effectively being trimmed down to being a suitable environment for children. In a game that has been rated by the ESRB to be for mature audiences. And this is not even a relict of days of yore when boomers thought that video games turned everyone into real life murder machines. The game recently had to go through a re-checking process for it's re-releases on consoles such as the Nintendo Switch and people still think that the game is suited for kids. Not because of the graphics and gore but because of it's themes.
https://www.esrb.org/ratings/36547/Neve ... d+Edition/
Plus I believe I don't even need to get into why DnD itself is more of a mature game rather than something a 13 year old child should be getting invested into. Again, topics that could probably get me penalized.

So why am I bringing all this up?
Because I want to chime into this thread again to agree with what other people have brought up. With Arelith having such a great focus on providing a safe and welcoming environment for players from all stripes of life, ranging from adults to children, it is very surprising that this big ol' sandbox thousands of people get involved in is so utterly chaotic.
Not saying that there's no rules in place to mandate how players ought to behave with one another. But clearly it seems to not be working a lot of times. And at the center of everything is PvP. So the time has come to make PvP both more serious and automatically regulated. Implement systems for factions to properly play war with one another. Let PvP deaths have actual consequences, as right now a lot of the killbash culture originates from "teehee they will just respawn and then we don't talk for 24 IRL hours :]". And maybe Irongron's hardline stance should be expanded to any group of players who get found out to be involved in any of the examples of toxicity that others have brought up here. Just ban them. Not permanently of course, we wouldn't want Arelith to lose many of it's players over night. Just give them a vacation for a week or more. Make them understand that the time to change their attitude and how they approach the game has come.

Or that's at least what I would do. Then again, I don't own or manage a PW server.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Royal Blood » Sat May 21, 2022 2:19 pm

-stick- wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 12:53 pm
Arelith is great I've been hooked since 2018 but it's not a safe place.

I've been a victim to some of the stuff mentioned above, it can ruin your day but I kept logging:), the good stuff overcome the bad.

Sadly there's no way to stop 3ed party communication if it's not discord it will be something else but maybe if a few things would change to make it harder on such groups?

Here are some ideas, could have been mentioned already please don't kill me if they did ;)

limiting further pvp at settlement's(if players want to fight they can take it outside or hire an assassin's to make someone disappear quietly).

Cutting down portal access for surface/UD leaving only the ones closer to epic content.

Scry could have some rare material requirement or limited to scry station's something to make the one preforming it to think twice before he/she attempt's one.

Last one would be party size could be limited to four players, this would make it harder for kill squads to operate and I don't think such change would effect adventuring much.
Limiting PVP in settlements is important.

I have a strong discontent for the DM rulings regarding settlement PVP largely because they are incoherent and inconsistent. There's a cap on how many players you can bring before you have to announce a raid and require a DM present. But if you're below that cap?

A DM told me a 'non rule-break' would be for a group of drow to enter Myon and hangout in the courtyard of the city. Now of course elves would insult or attack the Drow. But if you're a small group of Drow and all optimized pvp builds to work together? Too bad for the players. The NPC's will not be involved. There will be no enforcement of the perceived setting. This extends beyond Drow and Elves those are just the most extreme examples... I've seen open animators saunter into Cordor, antagonize the players, then drop a dracolitch heads. Or get into an all out melee in the middle of Cordor with mummies running around while a better build and pvp squad took advantage of their internal cohesion to slaughter the masses.

On the other hand, I've seen NPC armies enforce server standards. When a totally IC war was going on NPC 'leaders' got involved threatening to unseat the PC leaders if the war continued. Wharftown is another example, settlements had NPC forces engage the PC counterparts. Or let's talk about the Hub-Master. The allegedly too weak to fight off anyone hub-master is now suddenly strong enough to subdue any unruly pvper's in the hub.

I feel like the staff both demand players respect the setting and adhere to 'be nice' and also throw that out the window at a moments notice. Or enforce it randomly without consistency.

Stuff like this is, I think, is what leads to bad rule breaking between parties. It is very frustrating to have such inconsistent rulings and motivates groups to just go do the same thing the other group did back to them. As soon as you get into a back and forth riding the grey line of the rules you're cruising to be banned.

TLDR: The staff could help prevent PVP melt downs with better defined rules, consistent enforcing of the rules, and a desire to enforce a server 'climate' ((And agreeing WHAT that server climate is ahead of time.)) If you're going to be a drow that walks into Myon with no disguise and you're there to be hostile you should get whacked in the face by Myonic armies not have free reign to turbo slaughter everyone who speaks meanly to you.
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by DM Poppy » Sat May 21, 2022 2:42 pm

Royal Blood wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 2:19 pm

TLDR: The staff could help prevent PVP melt downs with better defined rules, consistent enforcing of the rules, and a desire to enforce a server 'climate' ((And agreeing WHAT that server climate is ahead of time.)) If you're going to be a drow that walks into Myon with no disguise and you're there to be hostile you should get whacked in the face by Myonic armies not have free reign to turbo slaughter everyone who speaks meanly to you.
The server has Rules to assist a more interactive form of Roleplay, that is suitable for it's targetted audience. It is still a world of RP, in which hundereds if not thousands of stories take place every single day.
Our rules cannot be written to accomidate for every single hiccup and flaw, unless it were to rival the Characters of some best selling books. In addition, how would Player be expected to read wave after wave of rules.

As for the instances in which you suggest the Team simply allows for an inconsistance stance, we are not a team that rivals the number of players on the server and we very much have our time invested in multiple avenues on the server at every given moment when we are online. Unless someone reports or pings for our attention, we'll not be aware of every single encounter on the server at every single moment they occur.
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Drak » Sat May 21, 2022 3:02 pm

Snake2512 wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 5:54 am
I am not sure how transparent I am allowed to be and I apologise if I say things poorly but the problem is not one of DM transparency, the issue is the playerbase rewards each other for lying to their fellow players. Throughout my two years of conflict I have often attempted to approach people one on one to resolve any issues.
Yeah I'm gonna stop right here as this isn't true at all, not with my experiences.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Ork » Sat May 21, 2022 3:22 pm

No I do think he's correct. I've seen images of players taken to shame others, and I've done the same before. It's pretty prevalent but I do think this is as good a time as any to stop. Time to stop. Taking a screenshot of a scene to decieve and post only a fraction of the roleplay to paint you in the "right" does happen. Or, even more nefarious is approaching a character with the intent of feeding memes, intel, or shame onto the other for clout or reputation with someone in your friend group in a similar conflict.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Painus » Sat May 21, 2022 3:30 pm

Drak wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 3:02 pm
Snake2512 wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 5:54 am
I am not sure how transparent I am allowed to be and I apologise if I say things poorly but the problem is not one of DM transparency, the issue is the playerbase rewards each other for lying to their fellow players. Throughout my two years of conflict I have often attempted to approach people one on one to resolve any issues.
Yeah I'm gonna stop right here as this isn't true at all, not with my experiences.
Could you elaborate on what you meant by this? This feels like an unnecessarily hostile response to what is otherwise an honest appraisal of the situation, and doesn't contribute to the discussion in any meaningful way. Snake's post is absolutely right with regards to OOC duplicity on the part of some of the playerbase. We've all seen it and some of us are guilty of having done it. As a community, we cannot move past this situation positively if we are not willing to have an honest and open dialogue about what is an obvious and pervasive problem.
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Lass is Class » Sat May 21, 2022 3:55 pm

Snake2512 wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 5:54 am
I have often attempted to approach people one on one to resolve any issues.
Painus wrote: Could you elaborate on what you meant by this?
To illustrate:

Code: Select all

[Snake2512]: [Tell]  sorry dog was sick 
[VVish]:  [Tell]  I am really at my last legs here, sorry. 
[Gaudete] [Snake2512]: [Tell]  lol ur good bro 
[VVish]:  [Tell]  That much OOC pressure I have upon my character over nothing, it is just ridiculous. And I need to talk with you personally, in Discord chat or in the voice, please. 
[Snake2512]: [Tell]  ye sure 
[Snake2512]: [Tell]  Im not really big on giving out discords though, whats the matter? 
[VVish]:  [Tell]  Eh, folks leaving the game because dislike what they think 'toxic RP'. 
[Snake2512]: [Tell]  From me? 
[VVish]:  [Tell]  From combination of factors, including your PC too, so I really wanted to clarify upon that in Discord. 
[Snake2512]: [Tell]  I see well I have  no OOC feelings towards them 
[Gaudete] [Snake2512]: [Tell]  this is quite surprising 
[VVish]:  [Tell]  That's why I wanted to talk. 
[VVish]:  [Tell]  Healthy conflicts and the like are fun, but people being frustrated and leaving the game is not what we play it for, I think? 
[Snake2512]: [Tell]  No definitely not.  
[VVish]:  [Tell]  I can guess you personally were never contacted over this. So if we could and you could help - please, get in touch. For now I need to go get some long rest, this game already feels like work. 
[VVish]:  [Tell]  VVish#8796 is the handle. 
And I wasn't ever contacted after that, neither in Tells, nor in Discord, despite being plainly open as it could be.

The issue left unattended led to a subsequent relocation from Cordor of about 30+ players two weeks later - they deleted their characters, quit Arelith, created or switched to alst. All to just to never interract with your and some other group.
--

Empathy and desire for being honest and open, about mistakes too, is what could have prevented this and many more similar cases.

Be Nice rule is a nice thing to follow, and staying in contact making sure no one is hurt, doubly so.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Sat May 21, 2022 4:04 pm

It might be the 2nd sentence they were contesting, not the lying to fellow players part. Being involved in this I'm disappointed how everything went down. Gaderel invited my character to be in a priest group and I was looking forward to that. Then he began going after my char's friends, and the whole situation wasn't fun. One of them stopped logging in because they wanted to avoid this entire thing.

If we're going to talk about the actual problem now and not beat around the bush, I'll start by saying there was a bit too much aggression from Snake's side, which led to a whole lot of people feeling like they had to herd together to stop him. With a few people being really weirdly OOC about it, which muddies things more and makes everything worse.

If there's one big thing I'd suggest to the remaining militant Ilmateri, it'd be to tone down the aggression. Yeah, you've been wronged by people, people are being jerks. But if you go out of your way to attack each and every one of them, or go and threaten/attack anyone adjacent to them, it makes people REALLY uncomfortable.
Some friends I have who are newish to the server with absolutely zero horses in this race were asking me, "Hey this guy just threatened to kill everyone in the entire room to prove a point, do I report this?"

And it's unreasonable to go "Well they didn't say anything OOC to let us know they were uncomfortable," when I'm uncomfortable with a situation the last thing I do is talk to the other side OOC. It never goes well. And I've seen people make fun of people for reaching out when they're uncomfortable. Surely others have had similar experiences.

Another thing is, give people space. Don't go around hunting people down. People left the underdark to get away. Then you came back to the surface. They left Cordor to get away. Then you came to Guldorand. If people are actively trying to not be involved in this, just let them be. Yes, I know this is hard, because along with people trying to get away were other people who kept pushing to make things worse. But pushing back against absolutely everyone didn't help things.

The other thing I'd suggest is to the other side of the conflict (I don't even know everyone involved, or who the people being weird OOC were). That if you've been wronged by the militant Ilmateri, just back down. Don't keep on bothering them. This has made things worse, some people refused to back down and kept on pushing more and more. Honestly I think most of the people who complain that the server is too PvP heavy should stop trash talking so much. I play very conflict prone characters, but have been involved in very, very little PvP. My characters rarely talk trash to people. They find other ways to deal with problems.

Some of the pushing was weird and OOCish too. The day before Gron posted his message, someone hung up a message on multiple boards IG with a giant rant against Snake thinly veiled as IC. Another player dumped a chat log and posted it on a board in-game. Things were starting to get really weird. Don't be that way, try and be better.

The "give people space" thing applies to you too. Let them do their thing, hang out elsewhere. There's some people who act like other groups being on the server at all is a great affront to them, and will do everything they can to drive them off the server. And that's just crazy. Nobody should be doing this.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Painus » Sat May 21, 2022 4:06 pm

Lass is Class wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 3:55 pm
Snake2512 wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 5:54 am
I have often attempted to approach people one on one to resolve any issues.
Painus wrote: Could you elaborate on what you meant by this?
To illustrate:

Code: Select all

[Snake2512]: [Tell]  sorry dog was sick 
[VVish]:  [Tell]  I am really at my last legs here, sorry. 
[Gaudete] [Snake2512]: [Tell]  lol ur good bro 
[VVish]:  [Tell]  That much OOC pressure I have upon my character over nothing, it is just ridiculous. And I need to talk with you personally, in Discord chat or in the voice, please. 
[Snake2512]: [Tell]  ye sure 
[Snake2512]: [Tell]  Im not really big on giving out discords though, whats the matter? 
[VVish]:  [Tell]  Eh, folks leaving the game because dislike what they think 'toxic RP'. 
[Snake2512]: [Tell]  From me? 
[VVish]:  [Tell]  From combination of factors, including your PC too, so I really wanted to clarify upon that in Discord. 
[Snake2512]: [Tell]  I see well I have  no OOC feelings towards them 
[Gaudete] [Snake2512]: [Tell]  this is quite surprising 
[VVish]:  [Tell]  That's why I wanted to talk. 
[VVish]:  [Tell]  Healthy conflicts and the like are fun, but people being frustrated and leaving the game is not what we play it for, I think? 
[Snake2512]: [Tell]  No definitely not.  
[VVish]:  [Tell]  I can guess you personally were never contacted over this. So if we could and you could help - please, get in touch. For now I need to go get some long rest, this game already feels like work. 
[VVish]:  [Tell]  VVish#8796 is the handle. 
And I wasn't ever contacted after that, neither in Tells, nor in Discord, despite being plainly open as it could be.

The issue left unattended led to a subsequent relocation from Cordor of about 30+ players two weeks later - they deleted their characters, quit Arelith, created or switched to alst. All to just to never interract with your and some other group.
--

Empathy and desire for being honest and open, about mistakes too, is what could have prevented this and many more similar cases.

Be Nice rule is a nice thing to follow, and staying in contact making sure no one is hurt, doubly so.
Snake currently can't post right now, so he asked me to post this on his behalf:

I recall this situation vividly and the reason I did not follow up is the next day I bumped into Ryker Novak on the Sibayad Docks and while speaking to him (I can't recall if I was called there or we met by chance), the fully warded figures of Rakot and Seitera Colds portaled in behind me mid-conversation at the Docks and I was forced to flee with a haste and invisibility.

What preceded the tells you sent was an agreement between Seitera Colds and Gaderel Anjou that we would not pursue this anymore I believe. Then you and your friends attempt to ambush Gaderel at Sibayad's docks. I wish I had the precise logs on hand and please supply them if you do but I believe Rakot immediately hostiled me upon entering the docks.

You illustrate my point perfectly of asking me to de-escalate in tells and then escalate against my character in game, even after we reached a peace agreement.
Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 4:04 pm
It might be the 2nd sentence they were contesting, not the lying to fellow players part. Being involved in this I'm disappointed how everything went down. Gaderel invited my character to be in a priest group and I was looking forward to that. Then he began going after my char's friends, and the whole situation wasn't fun. One of them stopped logging in because they wanted to avoid this entire thing.

If we're going to talk about the actual problem now and not beat around the bush, I'll start by saying there was a bit too much aggression from Snake's side, which led to a whole lot of people feeling like they had to herd together to stop him. With a few people being really weirdly OOC about it, which muddies things more and makes everything worse.

If there's one big thing I'd suggest to the remaining militant Ilmateri, it'd be to tone down the aggression. Yeah, you've been wronged by people, people are being jerks. But if you go out of your way to attack each and every one of them, or go and threaten/attack anyone adjacent to them, it makes people REALLY uncomfortable.
Some friends I have who are newish to the server with absolutely zero horses in this race were asking me, "Hey this guy just threatened to kill everyone in the entire room to prove a point, do I report this?"

And it's unreasonable to go "Well they didn't say anything OOC to let us know they were uncomfortable," when I'm uncomfortable with a situation the last thing I do is talk to the other side OOC. It never goes well. And I've seen people make fun of people for reaching out when they're uncomfortable. Surely others have had similar experiences.
This did not occur. It specifically was meant to target a single person, and everyone else involved was asked to not be involved. There was violence, but nobody died; they were all subdued.

This is exactly what Snake is talking about. Misleading people OOCly about something that occurred ICly. If you have logs of the situation to otherwise elucidate your point, they would be appreciated, otherwise this entire post comes across entirely as disingenuous.
Last edited by Painus on Sat May 21, 2022 4:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Ork » Sat May 21, 2022 4:09 pm

I think that's probably the most annoying part of conflict. When one side says they're done, but still engages in game.

Another thing I do want to say about players in general- it is not your responsibility to protect other players from a "bad time". That is the DMs gig. If a player comes to you saying, "man this whole situation is going to make me quit", you have an obligation to say "report it, but maybe a break is good if there's no resolution". Not to take it upon yourself through your character to "fix this". That's avataring.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by neverwinternightly » Sat May 21, 2022 4:12 pm

I'm not a DM, but I don't think this is meant to be an audit of how a specific player has interacted with others in the past. And the overarching point of his post is definitely not "I have often attempted to approach people one on one to resolve any issues", so disregarding it entirely based on that line feels a little much.

If anything, it sort of goes to prove the point of many in this thread. If you look at situations assuming the worst, that's exactly what you're going to find. I've seen a lot of people talk constantly about how some of this has killed the Underdark, Cordor, or wherever else, but it's always framed to fit the narrative they are trying to push.

People roll characters constantly. The UD population has been lower because slaving rule changes, drow infighting, a lesser leveling experience, and many other things. Cordor, in my experience, can be in a constant state of fluctuation depending on how active people care to be with the current government.

Others frame it in the light that "mainstays" in these locations are leaving for others spots and how that's bad, but is it? Obviously in the short term it doesn't feel great, but I'd argue it gives others a chance to breath life into these settlements where they may not have felt the chance before. There's good AND bad with it.

Point being, it feels like people are very quick to paint everything as black and white when these situations are RARELY simple.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Ork » Sat May 21, 2022 4:14 pm

neverwinternightly wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 4:12 pm
Others frame it in the light that "mainstays" in these locations are leaving for others spots and how that's bad, but is it? Obviously in the short term it doesn't feel great, but I'd argue it gives others a chance to breath life into these settlements where they may not have felt the chance before. There's good AND bad with it.
Well said.

Sorry to edit again, but another thing thats come up- I kind of think it's disingenuous to claim harm with anything that happens in game. No one is hurt by playing this game, and I do think we all need to have a bit more detachment from our characters to avoid this harm. Anytime someone says they got hurt from the game that isn't from a direct OOC comment, I find that they're not really doing a good job of staying separated from their character.
Last edited by Ork on Sat May 21, 2022 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by LichBait » Sat May 21, 2022 4:20 pm

Painus wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 4:06 pm

This did not occur. It specifically was meant to target a single person, and everyone else involved was asked to not be involved. There was violence, but nobody died; they were all subdued.

This is exactly what Snake is talking about. Misleading people OOCly about something that occurred ICly. If you have logs of the situation to otherwise elucidate your point, they would be appreciated, otherwise this entire post comes across entirely as disingenuous.
This is part of the issue of 'extreme' aggression. You can't be surprised when people respond to aggression with the aggression. People come with nuclear/ultimatum options of do this or die. This is an example of an, IMO, disingenuous avenue of choice.

Then when people predictably respond to the hostile ultimatum with hostility, they are then tracked down with a squad COMPLETELY kitted up for a big fight. Why is it surprising when things break loose into a big fight? This is precisely why things escalate, because there is no middle ground presented. It comes off as extremely hostile, and makes people exceptionally uncomfortable.

I'm also not arguing against ultimatum options, but when you offer nothing but those ultimatum options, and always present one's self with aggression it adds little to collaborative storytelling and makes it just seem as if one side is always attempting to bend the narrative to their whim. There must be build up to ultimatums, otherwise it just comes off as pridegaming.
Last edited by LichBait on Sat May 21, 2022 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Sat May 21, 2022 4:21 pm

If that's what you got out of my post I don't know what to say. I'm not attempting to mislead, this has been through my observation and the experiences of those around me. They've shown me logs of interactions, you can't tell me people wanting a peaceful meeting and then getting hostiled at the end of it while being insulted the whole time is asking them to stay out of it. You are being just as misleading.

What I want out of this is an actual solution. For both sides to just stop being this way, to de-escalate and stop being weird about everything. There is fault on both sides, and without people acknowledging that, things are not going to get better.

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Re: Hostile Interactions, Mass PvP, Transition Abuse and Bad Blood

Post by GaryFromAU » Sat May 21, 2022 4:24 pm

What I would like is to wake up, check the board and not have my RP policed by individuals I have literally never interacted with.

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