Good-Aligned Classes?

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Void
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Re: Good-Aligned Classes?

Post by Void » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:02 pm

Kalthariam wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:11 pm
Looking through the class lists, I don't see many classes I would be able to call a "tank"
You can fill that role with many classes. Becuase classes are flexible, they're not locked into the role and can be built for something else instead.

Also there's Knight class with Knight Vanguard tradition.
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Knight
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Low Hanging Fruitlord
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Re: Good-Aligned Classes?

Post by Low Hanging Fruitlord » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:44 pm

Kalthariam wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:11 pm
I know this isn't an MMO
It feels a lot like an MMO these days, to be honest. Hitting max level shortly after starting a new character is taken for granted, with the majority of the progression grind being gear-focused.

The only thing we're missing are raid bosses, and that's likely because designing any kind of content for 10+ players is just asking for lag and NWN crashes.

Anyways, drawing from MMO experiences isn't a bad thing. A lot of Arelith's classes feel better to play using MMO-esque cooldowns instead of sticking to 3rd ed uses/day.

But back on topic...

What I like to see from new classes are roleplay archetypes we don't see normally, or have no mechanical incentive to pursue. For example, let's say you do Anointed Knight from Kaedrin's popular nwn2 pack. All you're getting is an armored holy warrior slathering substances on their weapons, duplicating the RP of any normal paladin using temp essences. New classes are an opportunity for new aesthetics. So with that in mind, some ideas:
  • Van Helsing style Witch-hunter. Abilities key off of light/medium armor, crossbows, and gadgets. Perhaps style it as a good-aligned Rogue or Ranger compatible PrC that really focuses on countering evil outsiders, undead and the evil mages that bring them into the prime. Replace higher-end rogue grenades with anti-fiend grenades, replace Epic Dodge with an anti-magic version (say, passively negating a hostile spell with the ability going into a 2-3 round cooldown after being triggered), and maybe have some unique mechanics that let you damage/debuff a summoner by targeting the summon. Bypass sneak immunity on undead and fiends.
  • Monk of Mercy. So a subset of monk characters are often styled as pacifist diplomats, peaceful scholars, and traveling healers - but very few of their mechanical abilities actually reflect that roleplay. Monks just... hit things hard and often. So do a Monk PrC that foregoes offensive power for unique ki-based healing, non-damaging paralysis attacks, bonuses to disarming enemies. Key abilities off the healing skill, and perhaps have some unique mechanics tied to heal kit usage.
  • Priest in Robes, the Divine Caster. The Path of Healing attempted this archetype by tying certain powerful healing/support abilities to giving up armor. What ended up the optimal use of this path was a zen archer who didn't need armor because of fat AC boosts from monk dip. It'd be interesting to bring back this archetype as a focused divine caster with a unique spellbook and perhaps some infini-casting mechanics. This is the exorcist that stands before the horrors of a haunted place and descends into it with nothing more than his vestments, an open holy book, and unblemished faith. Some unique mechanics might be having this priest's Divine Shield key off of WIS instead of CHA, and creating circles of protection on the ground that heavily debuffs / damages various evil archetypes that attempt to enter.

Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Good-Aligned Classes?

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:11 pm

There's a lot here I didn't read, so forgive me if this was mentioned already..

While i have been strongly opposed to anything but a LG paladin on other servers I actually think having a CG and a NG version with some variations to the bonuses they get could work for Arelith, especially since there is so many characters that would otherwise be cg or ng that read lg on their character sheet because of the bonuses. I'd still hate to see evil paladins like the 4 corners give you, but I think expanding the class to cover all the good alignments would be good in general for the server.

Now I know thats not as flashy and exciting as a new class, but creating new classes create their own problems because you want them to be good enough that people play them but not so good that everyone is lining up to play them. And honestly, you could kit out just about every class in a similar way. The goal I assume is to have more options, but if i chose something like a dart throwing rogue and got a few bonuses on that path to help me along, that would accomplish the same thing just to use an easy example.

Anyways, just my two cents.

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Paint
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Re: Good-Aligned Classes?

Post by Paint » Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:24 am

I want to go out and say for the record when I made a hexblade, I was given a lot of different sources when I asked for lore, and eventually told, shrug -- the lore on arelith is open-ended. Some hexblades are pacted, some aren't, some did some big Terrible Thing, and some play with souls.

I'm only bringing this up because all hexblades have to be evil, and there's a pretty big assumption there that whatever they did/do, it was/is so bad, they're irredeemable for life. And, I think it's good to have some alignment-locked classes to force people out of their comfort zone and try out something new. I just think that the lore setup for hexblades on arelith isn't fleshed out enough right now to justify forcing them to be evil other than that it's a decision the team has made. (Which, for the record, I'm fine with, for the reason above.)

And, for example, warlocks can be neutral even if they've gotten themselves an abyssal or an infernal patron. Maybe they made a pact for terrible power so they could do some subjective good, unaware of the real cost of their pact. There's a lot of space to poison the well there, and I think that's fun. But, I don't think, following that, there's a logical reason hexblades can't be neutral right now other than mechanics and the team's decision to keep them alignment-locked to evil. And I need to reiterate, I'm fine with classes being alignment-locked.

I do think if you're alright with that, though -- the ambiguity around hexblade being necessarily locked to mechanical evil -- that it's fine for that to be the case for some class to be necessarily locked to mechanical good despite being laid out ambiguously. Why is this character virtuous? What big Good Thing have they done, what oath have they swore, or what have they given up selflessly in pursuit of a righteous and good path? I think it's fine to leave that open-ended and let people have fun with interpreting that.

The whole point is, I think if we allow that kind of, 'this class is evil because they're evil,' for bad guys, it should be fine for a class to be, 'this class is good because they're good,' for good guys. There's always the loss of power that comes from falling, and I think more benevolent or good-aligned classes could probably have that same penalty. Otherwise, maybe we need to look at both sides of the fence more critically.

Edit:
As a side-note, is there a -single- class or race on Arelith that has 'chaotic' as an alignment requirement? I know barbarian is non-lawful, but that doesn't really count. I bet if you had a chart of alignment distribution for Arelith, you'd see a ton of chaotic characters, anyways. Chaos is fun, mechanical cookies or no.

Distant Relation
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Re: Good-Aligned Classes?

Post by Distant Relation » Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:43 pm

Quite a few of the good-aligned and good/neutral classes in the source material aren't such because they're aligned to some cosmic paladinesque ideal, but because they're simply not the thing someone evil would do, or because they imply the patronage of a power who would not bless someone of a black heart.

The defining traits of evil are selfishness and a lack of empathy for the suffering of others. Any class whose core concept revolves around 'doing something because it genuinely helps others', or whose powers 'come from a nonevil patron with goodly intentions', fits perfectly as a good or good-neutral PRC.

A few examples from source material, specifically avoiding anything that is deity specific or is very paladin-esque already:

Branch Dancers - A 5-level ranger-esque PRC, aimed at nature-esque characters. Blessed by a treant, they recieve help from vegetation in the area which literally animates to help them. Requires non-evil alignment, because the treant will not bless those with a black heart.

Church Inquisitor - A 10-level cleric-esque PRC that trades away cleric bonus feats, turn undead synergy, etc, to recieve Detect Evil, a bonus domain (Inquisition) and at 10th level immunity to mind-affecting. Tasked with hunting subtle corruptive evils within outwardly good organizations, only those of the purest heart (LG and NG) are selected for this position, and only after they've proven themselves as zealous hunters of the corrupt.

Daggerspell Mages and Daggerspell Shapers - Respectively, the Arcane and Divine branches of the militant order known as the Daggerspell Guardians. These 10-level PRCs have as central mechanic channeling spells through daggerpoint, combining rogue-esque combat with magical abilities. The Daggerspell Guardians extensively vet prospective members, and will use every mean, magical or otherwise, to ensure only Non-Evil are among their ranks.

Exalted Arcanist - A 5 level PRC available only to spontaneous arcane casters. In a way the celestial counterpart to dragon disciple thematically, this PRC is all about igniting the celestial blood within to gain wondrous new powers via Exalted feats. Offering 4/5 caster level progression and available only to Good-aligned bards and sorcerers, this is a PRC that gains its power entirely from an intimate connection with a celestial power very far back in the character's lineage, like a coualt or planetar.

Prime Underdark Guide - A 10 level rogue-esque PRC that is focused entirely on traversing dangerous locations and obstacles, surviving harsh environments and dealing/negotiating with the various denizens of the underdark. This one is only for non-evil characters, not for any divine or bloodline reason, but simply because this kind of career sounds like suicide to someone who always looks out for number one and has no heart or empathy for helping others.

Sworn Slayer - A fighter-esque 5-level PRC that trades away any kind of bonus feats to instead gain a supercharged version of Preferred Enemy / Studied Enemy that focuses entirely on one single usually-evil creature type (undead, aberration, outsider, etc). There are some divine overtones here, but they're mostly left to the background. None of the classes' powers are actually divine-backed, and are expressed as just highly specialized martial training. Only for the non-evil mundanes of the world that desperately want to rid the Prime Material of these monstrosities.

Vigilante - A 10-level roguebard PRC that combines investigative and social abilities with spells oriented towards sleuthing around in an urban environment, alongside a Smite Evil esque ability usable only against criminals. It's wild and you love it. Again, only open to those who want to dedicate their lives to hunting evildoers.

And finally, if we are going by sourcebook rules, classes like Knight should probably be non-evil only. From the original PDK, to prestige classes like the Knight Hospitaler, the Anointed Knight, and even in the examples above with the Vigilante and the Prime Underdark Guide, a lot of classes have "nonevil" alignment requirements simply because only decent people would ever pursue them.

There's no need to lock yourselves to 'good equals paladin' when it comes to class design. :) Wizards of the Coast certainly didn't.

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MissEvelyn
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Re: Good-Aligned Classes?

Post by MissEvelyn » Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:40 pm

Distant Relation wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:43 pm
Quite a few of the good-aligned and good/neutral classes in the source material aren't such because they're aligned to some cosmic paladinesque ideal, but because they're simply not the thing someone evil would do, or because they imply the patronage of a power who would not bless someone of a black heart.

The defining traits of evil are selfishness and a lack of empathy for the suffering of others. Any class whose core concept revolves around 'doing something because it genuinely helps others', or whose powers 'come from a nonevil patron with goodly intentions', fits perfectly as a good or good-neutral PRC.

A few examples from source material, specifically avoiding anything that is deity specific or is very paladin-esque already:

Branch Dancers - A 5-level ranger-esque PRC, aimed at nature-esque characters. Blessed by a treant, they recieve help from vegetation in the area which literally animates to help them. Requires non-evil alignment, because the treant will not bless those with a black heart.

Church Inquisitor - A 10-level cleric-esque PRC that trades away cleric bonus feats, turn undead synergy, etc, to recieve Detect Evil, a bonus domain (Inquisition) and at 10th level immunity to mind-affecting. Tasked with hunting subtle corruptive evils within outwardly good organizations, only those of the purest heart (LG and NG) are selected for this position, and only after they've proven themselves as zealous hunters of the corrupt.

Daggerspell Mages and Daggerspell Shapers - Respectively, the Arcane and Divine branches of the militant order known as the Daggerspell Guardians. These 10-level PRCs have as central mechanic channeling spells through daggerpoint, combining rogue-esque combat with magical abilities. The Daggerspell Guardians extensively vet prospective members, and will use every mean, magical or otherwise, to ensure only Non-Evil are among their ranks.

Exalted Arcanist - A 5 level PRC available only to spontaneous arcane casters. In a way the celestial counterpart to dragon disciple thematically, this PRC is all about igniting the celestial blood within to gain wondrous new powers via Exalted feats. Offering 4/5 caster level progression and available only to Good-aligned bards and sorcerers, this is a PRC that gains its power entirely from an intimate connection with a celestial power very far back in the character's lineage, like a coualt or planetar.

Prime Underdark Guide - A 10 level rogue-esque PRC that is focused entirely on traversing dangerous locations and obstacles, surviving harsh environments and dealing/negotiating with the various denizens of the underdark. This one is only for non-evil characters, not for any divine or bloodline reason, but simply because this kind of career sounds like suicide to someone who always looks out for number one and has no heart or empathy for helping others.

Sworn Slayer - A fighter-esque 5-level PRC that trades away any kind of bonus feats to instead gain a supercharged version of Preferred Enemy / Studied Enemy that focuses entirely on one single usually-evil creature type (undead, aberration, outsider, etc). There are some divine overtones here, but they're mostly left to the background. None of the classes' powers are actually divine-backed, and are expressed as just highly specialized martial training. Only for the non-evil mundanes of the world that desperately want to rid the Prime Material of these monstrosities.

Vigilante - A 10-level roguebard PRC that combines investigative and social abilities with spells oriented towards sleuthing around in an urban environment, alongside a Smite Evil esque ability usable only against criminals. It's wild and you love it. Again, only open to those who want to dedicate their lives to hunting evildoers.

And finally, if we are going by sourcebook rules, classes like Knight should probably be non-evil only. From the original PDK, to prestige classes like the Knight Hospitaler, the Anointed Knight, and even in the examples above with the Vigilante and the Prime Underdark Guide, a lot of classes have "nonevil" alignment requirements simply because only decent people would ever pursue them.

There's no need to lock yourselves to 'good equals paladin' when it comes to class design. :) Wizards of the Coast certainly didn't.
Oh I love all of these so much. Some of them allow more flexibility than others, in terms of neutral alignment, but overall these would be fantastic additions.

The more PRCs we have, the more diverse our characters will be 😊


Xarge VI
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Re: Good-Aligned Classes?

Post by Xarge VI » Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:15 am

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw

2. Maybe an Exorcist class. Dedicated to disabling and purging undead blight and evil planars as well as protecting people against blights and curses.

Limited offensive power but powerful spells and abilities to disable and destroy undead and evil planars as well as instant action restorations against fear, blindness, paralysis etc- curses. Possibly some powerful, short lasting buff+restoration- making it's niche to be the one that turns the tide of battle when things go all the way south.

Also possibly ability to weaken warlock blasts or give them chances to miss.

AstralUniverse
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Re: Good-Aligned Classes?

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:21 pm

Devs,

I heard you guys are removing Healer path.

While in all other regards I think it's a good idea, in regards to this thread it's a bit of a waste of a potential good-locked thing.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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