Good-Aligned Classes?

[Aniel]

To preface this isn't an announcement, this isn't hinting at anything in the future, this is just a curiosity I've had for a long while now that I haven't been able to brainstorm a solution to. You're welcome to consider this thread a suggestion's thread so long as the suggestions are on topic.

It happens with most new classes, they are themed in a way that lends them to be evil. Palemaster, hexblade, warlock, assassin, they all deal in areas that Good people refrain from and would largely appeal to Evil people. As a result the classes end up being alignment locked. This raises the same question every time internally and often from the community - "what do Good characters have to look forward to?" The honest answer to this is I am not certain. It's far easier to make a class that only reasonably appeals to Evil or Neutral concepts, but is far harder to find a class that, for some reason, would exclude Evil or Neutral characters. Source material has plenty of Evil concepts, but there anything aside from paladin is very scarce, and even paladin plenty of people would argue should be available outside of the Good bracket.

I've spent the last year or two idly thinking about it, trying to come up with concepts for it but they always fall flat. How do you design a class that meaningfully adds a new mechanical niche to the server with a unique and flavorful identity that also necessitates it be locked to Good for reasons that are not purely arbitrary, or presume too much about the character?

So for the interest of my own curiosity if nothing else I invite anyone to share how they would go about it. Please remain civil and have fun with it.

[godhand-]

healer - dedicating life to healing/helping people is intrinsically good.
why do people become doctors? To help people (inb4 money.)

[Party in the forest at midnight]

healer - dedicating life to healing/helping people is intrinsically good.
why do people become doctors? To help people (inb4 money.)

GOD HAS GIVEN ME THE DIVINE POWER TO CHOOSE WHO LIVES AND DIES. AND I WILL INVOKE THIS ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

[Kalthariam]

The only thing that I can really think of, that would be something that soundly and firmly is settled into Good-alignment, is a class that is probably more focused on support, healing, comforting others, and focusing more on the selfless aspect of the good-alignment more than the hunting of evil, something more Neutral Good than Lawful or Chaotic.

However, I mean you can just play a good aligned cleric or bard to really get something like that, I am not sure it constitutes a whole new class.

Is it possible to maybe have paths that are alignment restricted? I don't know how the paths work in coding. It's possible maybe you can add specific paths for classes that are alignment restricted and give different themed skill sets?

[Eyeliner]

Evil or neutral healers do have a place (evil factions sustain casualties too and want to keep valuable members alive, neutral healers might be in it for pure profit or have some other agenda). I mean I'm not against the idea of a good-only healer but something like the healer class we have now is pretty agnostic, it needs something more inherently good to differentiate.

Selflessness and boosting others are hallmarks of "good" and maybe a white mage class that's something like a mix of healer, bard and/or enchantment specialist wizard could be interesting. Maybe focused on buffing and helping others instead of themselves however that might work out. I don't know how feasible it is but getting XP for healing instead of killing might be something (but maybe too abusable)

Maybe there could be some good version of warlocks with oaths to good deities instead of pacts.

[Curve]

Some kind of a reverse warlock would be cool. Someone who makes deals with good aligned outsiders. Add in oaths, similar to oaths that paladins take or some kind of restrictive role play requirements. Different paths based off of L, N, or CG planes or creatures.

[Azensor]

Here’s a few prc’s i snagged from a website could look over them and see if they give an idea?

https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/c ... ted_Knight

https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/c ... e_of_Peace

https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/c ... ne_Speaker

https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/c ... eartwarder

https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/c ... Hellreaver

https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/c ... ige/Herald

https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/c ... num_Knight

https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/c ... sen_Martyr

https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/c ... d_Exorcist

https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/c ... d_Purifier

https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/c ... nderworker

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Some kind of a reverse warlock would be cool. Someone who makes deals with good aligned outsiders. Add in oaths, similar to oaths that paladins take or some kind of restrictive role play requirements. Different paths based off of L, N, or CG planes or creatures.

I like this idea.

[Skibbles]

Good warlock would be so awesome - especially if it was incredibly difficult to tell the difference by just seeing only their invocations.

[MissEvelyn]

Taking inspiration from 3.5 and NWN2 had worked well with our current additions, so I say we continue down that path

Kaedrin's Pack for NWN2 specifically adds a ton of new classes, some of them good-restricted.

Here's a few good-aligned PRCs for inspiration:

Anointed Knight

Champion of the Silver Flame

Heartwarder

Lion of Talisid

Shadowbane Stalker

Shining Blade

Skullclan Hunter


Obviously these would need tweaking to work in NWN, let alone Arelith, but these are just few flavorful ideas for good aligned classes.

[Mattamue]

Evil themes translate to classes pretty well, as pointed out, assassination being an obvious example.

What about good themes? This is obviously a wild approach, but might get ideas flowing.

Philanthropy
Overcoming addiction
Pro Bono attorneys
Role models
Emergency services, firefighters
Community activist
Teaching
Therapy

So the kit might do things like...

Ability to avoid aoe damage, also nearby allies avoid aoe
Temporary and cumulative buffs to detection skills if they fall
Increase party xp and/or gold gain
Choose a mentor/mentee and the more you work with them, the more buffs you both get
Choose a 1x per rest, damage type to increase DR and immunity, but have the opposite vuln - not just elemental but also pierce/slash/blunt
Get save boosts after a fail, same for allies
Remove fatigue/rest meter and give it as some healing or a buff
Ability to give a buff based on how much hp is missing
Get a buff from losing a big chunk of hp or taking a crit, same if an ally gets critted, maybe increase resistance to crits there more you take
If an ally dies, get a buff, straight wow ripoff
Take a % of the damage from your guard target on yourself
Buffs to your own social skills with more good allies around


Helping others it's generally good so I think the topic trends towards support type abilities. This type of thing could differentiate itself from just a good fighter, Bard, or ranger by having more support type mechanics. Tough to differentiate from Knight support mechanically.

[garrbear758]

Just want to add real quick things we've already discussed and haven't moved forward on for the sake of saving yall some time: celestial warlock and "good blackguard"

[Kalthariam]

Yeah, I know Evil clerics exist, which is why I mentioned that they do exist and the idea was just smooshing a bard and cleric together.

I'm not quite sure exactly what the overall name or skillset would be if you made a class like that, but most "Good" aligned classes seem to revolve around either being a "Monster hunter" of some shade and variety, or being a healer/mentor.

It's surprisingly easy to come up with class ideas for "Evil" professions or professions that are neutral and don't lean either way, but I will admit the only real thing I personally can come up with is some sort of support class. Monster hunting roles have been kinda filled up with various fighters paladins, rangers, and the like.. most of the classes feel like they are some mixture of those classes and themes.. which is unfortunate, because it'd be neat that the good guys get more things.

Also isn't the "Good" blackguard just a Champion of Torm? I know it's been altered on arelith but I thought those two were effectively the same vein.

Could just make reflavored paladin classes, like Lycanthrope Hunters, Undead Hunters, Devil/Demon hunters, something along those lines, but they are all just kinda mixes between already existing classes not really classes in and of themselves.

[fading]

Also isn't the "Good" blackguard just a Champion of Torm? I know it's been altered on arelith but I thought those two were effectively the same vein.

Maybe they mean a fighter type with celestial summons, which, I mean, doesn't sound terrible. Maybe too much of a reskin of blackguard though..

[Rogaku]

Evil or neutral healers do have a place (evil factions sustain casualties too and want to keep valuable members alive, neutral healers might be in it for pure profit or have some other agenda). I mean I'm not against the idea of a good-only healer but something like the healer class we have now is pretty agnostic, it needs something more inherently good to differentiate.

Selflessness and boosting others are hallmarks of "good" and maybe a white mage class that's something like a mix of healer, bard and/or enchantment specialist wizard could be interesting. Maybe focused on buffing and helping others instead of themselves however that might work out. I don't know how feasible it is but getting XP for healing instead of killing might be something (but maybe too abusable)

Maybe there could be some good version of warlocks with oaths to good deities instead of pacts.

Or Celestials, since in the primary D&D Books there ARE Celestial Pacts.

[Rogaku]

Taking inspiration from 3.5 and NWN2 had worked well with our current additions, so I say we continue down that path

Kaedrin's Pack for NWN2 specifically adds a ton of new classes, some of them good-restricted.

Here's a few good-aligned PRCs for inspiration:

Anointed Knight

Champion of the Silver Flame

Heartwarder

Lion of Talisid

Shadowbane Stalker

Shining Blade

Skullclan Hunter


Obviously these would need tweaking to work in NWN, let alone Arelith, but these are just few flavorful ideas for good aligned classes.

There's also classes in Book of Exalted Deeds tied to the Hebdomad members (Slayer of Domiel, Diplomat of Barachiel *I think* , etc.)

[garrbear758]

Also isn't the "Good" blackguard just a Champion of Torm? I know it's been altered on arelith but I thought those two were effectively the same vein.

Maybe they mean a fighter type with celestial summons, which, I mean, doesn't sound terrible. Maybe too much of a reskin of blackguard though..

Ya that's basically what I meant. A blackguard but with celestials

[fading]

It's a struggle to find a coherent theme for a good-aligned class, but lite-pacifism seems like a good foundation. A support/healer class (especially since healer is on the chopping block afaik) would be quite neat. Maybe taking some inspiration from the prestige class Apostle of Peace.

Could give caster levels to both cleric and druid, to make the class more flexible in RP. With a few special abilities that can paralyze enemies, give sanctuary (sanctuary on target?), etc. Would also give skill focus Heal or something minor like that. Just ideas I guess, but a healer class seems quite archetypically good aligned.



Aside from that, a half-caster focused on celestial summons doesn't sound terrible, could give it some clear distinctions from blackguard. Maybe it's not a full BAB class, more of a support type. We have a few classes related to fiends, but not really any strongly associated with celestials.


Basically, a support or healer type class. We already have paladin as the militant good-aligned class, and support/healing by itself seems more good than evil? shrug

[Eyeliner]

In addition to celestial related classes what about something to do with the Seelie Court?

[Kenji]

What about non-evil but chaotic aligned classes?

Something like V for Vendetta, Deadpool, Batman, Punisher, Sailor Moon, or even Captain Planet

[Exordius]

Punisher sounds fun. Sailor Moon and Captain Planet... yeah not as much, and who would even know of Cpt. Planet these days anyway lol.

[Zanithar]

So, in my experience, the good aligned class concepts tend to tie to a good aligned philosophies (often merely opposing an evil aligned philosophy), which in Forgotten Realms and D&D in general really, is generally derived from the divine which further drives the alignment enforcement. Even paladins are aligned with a core code of righteousness outside of FR and to a deity plus a core code of righteousness inside of FR.

We see some of this with the Paladin Oaths, which loosely align with certain oaths representing philosophies opposing an evil philosophy. And Orders like the Harper’s and the Radiant Heart.

So, how does this equate to non-paladin oaths and more importantly how do you “generalise” it rather than tying it to a specific deity (because FR has lots of deities) but keep it good focused?

Because historically, in D&D, this has resulted in prestige classes that are either deity paired or organisation paired.

Things like XXX of <insert good deity here>.

With evil, we have some stuff defined as evil period, like undead and poison and murder. But we do not really have a concept of absolute good period, outside of the divine. Meaning, there is nothing someone can do that makes them good period if you do it. You do have plenty of stuff that if you do it, you cannot be good however.

So, this always leaves us with “but an evil and/or non good character could do that as well” which is also why people call out that any deity should be able to have holy warriors (Paladins) that align with that particular deity.

So, unless we want to go down the road of building out deity specific prestige classes like Doomguide. Or we want to go down the road of building out organisation based prestige classes like Harper’s the best you do is generalise a good concept/philosophy and say .. yes that could be generalised for evil and neutral versions as well but in this case those do not exist yet/ever.

So, IMO, the only way to have good exclusive classes that make sense is either to tie them into a pantheon or deity or organisation lore and say they are good and there is not yet an evil version of that for evil pantheon or deity or organisations. Or tie it to a philosophy but that is, in my experience, easier to tie to Lawful/Chaotic over Good/Evil.

So, I cannot provide ideas for a class that could only be good meaning there is no potential for neutral/evil equivalents. Because we have no absolute good things outside of powers themselves.

So, a long winded way of outlining the problem with the way D&D has created the good/evil box. But what then makes sense to “box” into Good only?

Tie classes to good philosophies that are represented across various pantheons.

Xxx of sacrifice
Yyy of righteousness
Zzz of light
Undead hunters (or any absolute evil)
Guardians of Souls
Protectors of the Weak and downtrodden
Etc.

[Kuma]

not a particular fan of horde/alliance opposite class balance matching tbh, i think it's creatively bankrupt

[CNS]

Design wise mechanically there's very little that's actually G/E hardlocked.

Summons fiends -> summons celestial
Soul magic -> hope magic

And so on.

A class is a collection of numbers and abilities.

Take blackguard which I know has already been thought about, a good version is basically a full bab melee summoner with some tweaks on the actual numbers abilities. What really makes the difference is the lore and reasoning for the class.

I think the real difficulty is most good aligned concepts don't work great or translate easily to a combat orientated class like evil ones do. Or have no reason to exclude evil. I think the last part is the real stickler.

Short of the Divine stuff it's really hard to come up with concepts that naturally exclude evil alignments. Even a popular one here, healer, has uses for evil, and people can very easily come up situations where it makes sense.

Personally I think looking for stuff you can exclude evil from isn't really needed, just offering more things that are built for good to give them some more options and if someone makes it work for evil then great for them. Afterall the reason in every setting and story evil gets more tools in the toolbox is they are willing to cross lines good people and heros dont. So not restricting keeps your options open more and keeps you away from everything being divine orientated.

Actual ideas:
Hope and inspiration - traditional bastions of good. Think Gandalfs original roles in Lotr. Someome who exists to bring hope where there is none so good can keep up the struggle.

Inquisitor - often shown as corrupt or evil or hard edged in literature but you can work on how it presents here but someone who roots out evil before it can set in and fester, could be divine or not.

Beauty - sexy elven fun times bait if done wrong but something around protecting (or destroying ugly) from the perspective of the world - nature, good society or something. Beauty was probably a bad word to use.

Watcher - someone who watches and keeps track of the forces of evil, perhaps cross referencing with the annals of history

Disruptor - someone focused on infiltrating and sewing discord among those of evil intent.

Sun and/or moon and other weather related concepts: don't really work in the UD so while not excluding evil it's at least a little restricted. Could be reinforced mechanically perhaps if you really wanted since the source of power is blocked (not sure that's a good idea)

There are probably a lot of subclass type things that can be done too, cleric and wizard specialties abound in this sort of thinking as do various types of knight (either PDK or just melee) or monk order.

[CNS]

Following on from Zav's post too you could take a order or diety based prc from some splatbook as inspiration and generic it up a little but arbitrarily limit it to certain alignments while leaving room for more creativity.

Goodly person of good
(This is based on the good people of waterdeep prc)
This class is based on good citizens who are inspired to do more and rise up to face the evils and protect common folks. While the original PRC was highly restrictive to followers of Illmater who lived in Waterdeep, on arelith we have opened it up and so anyone can play this as long as the following is observed

* Good aligned
* Must focus on protecting common folk
* While the original was powers given by Illmater here they are innate (Heros journey, stronger than they knew) or divinely (good dieties only) given it is the players choice
Etc etc