Arelith in 2022

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Arelith in 2022

Post by Nidea Lynn » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:24 pm

Hi lovely Arelith community! :D

I've been a periodic player of Arelith for many years and decided to memorialize my time through a YouTube series. You're invited, as veterans, to participate should your interest be piqued. Mods, please let me know if I need to post elsewhere and I apologize if this is an erroneous spot.

Since I don't think I can embed for increased accessibility, here's the link.

Please offer your feedback and corrections as I'm sure my understanding of the server/NWN1:EE mechanics aren't perfected! :)
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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by garrbear758 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:25 pm

Watched the first one and that was really good! By far a much better intro to the server than anything we've ever come up with. My one very pedantic criticism is that pvp is technically not consensual, but that's super minor and the rest of it is amazing! Thanks for doing this! I'm looking forward to more.
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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by Kalopsia » Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:27 pm

Well explained and great editing! Gonna keep my eyes open for more :)

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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by Borin Drakkmurl » Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:43 pm

I'm actually looking forward to the next episode.

Good stuff.
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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by Irongron » Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:32 pm

Also really enjoyed the video, we don't make our own such videos, and even if we could, it's far more honest when it comes from players, and I too hope to see more, and I also appreciate the enthusiasm you show for the server.

Not to bring the project down though, but I must also add a word of warning. Whenever Arelith gets brought up on 'offsite' channels, be it Youtube, Reddit, Gaming Press news articles, RPG forums, you will very quickly get many posters (Well I say 'many', it may also just be a few extremely enthusiastic ex-players), that will jump on any comment section to decry the community as toxic, the DMs as bias, and anyone saying otherwise some secret stooge of Arelith's nefarious admins. Sometimes this can be mild, sometime extreme (I had to entirely shut down Arelith's Facebook account due to what were effectively threats against myself).

From time to time to sites, Discord groups, and even once a Twitter account pop up with the sole purpose of harassing (or possible leading a popular revolt against, depending on one's perspective) Arelith. One a video series like this reaches these groups, it will get hit like all the others.

Just be mindful that when asking people for their feedback on Arelith, there is a decent chance this could get rather heated, once it starts being shared around. I hope it doesn't kill your motivation to finish the series.

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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by Nidea Lynn » Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:39 pm

Sorry everyone for the lack of replies! I'm just reading your responses now.

Thank you for the corrections and I'll try to address them in future videos (notably the PvP misunderstanding; I suppose I overplayed the "give a chance for RP to happen" as "consensual" although I now see those don't fully overlap).

Irongron, you're correct and others have already fulfilled your prophetic warning. In fact, no MMO that I've covered has been immune from others (hopefully) therapeutically voicing their experiences that have been colored by less than ideal situations whether fair or of their own design.

With that said, I do my best to keep such discussions civil, fair, nuanced, and current (meaning, if a perceived unfair ban occurred 3 years ago, is it really relevant to Arelith in 2022?). I love Arelith and the players with whom I've adventured over the years, and I hope my videos can inspire old & new people alike to return or play for the first time. :)

Tentatively, new Arelith episodes will be released each Wednesday at 6 AM PST (I live in CA, USA).

Of course, your continued feedback & corrections are most welcome. :)
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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by Kenji » Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:01 pm

The first episode is a great format for getting new players' feet wet with very clear editing and great instructions.

It's probably already been made aware but, generally, new characters should avoid distributing skill points at levels 1 and 2. Level 1 choices in feats and skill points are almost irreversible and can only be changed by two admin-level people in very extreme cases.

Characters at level 1 creation screen are advised to:
  1. Not distribute any skill points (just click okay and move on to the next step)
  2. Select a very commonly chosen feat such as Expertise (for melee characters) or Extend Spell (for casters)
  3. Never press the "Recommend" button
Anyways, loved the video overall, wish you will show off more interactions with other Arelith player characters to show the naysayers that they're wrong about Arelith. No point in arguing with those who still think the server is the same as it was 10 years ago. I applaud you for your patience and positivity in your response to the negativity. Keep it up!

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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by Archnon » Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:19 pm

Ooof, that wererat gets all new players! Loved it!

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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by Nidea Lynn » Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:28 pm

Hi Kenji,

thank you for your reply and kind words. Your recommendations are noted and I may try to find a way to communicate them. It's unfortunately unintuitive for the best/safest route is to ... not take an action nor take the 'recommended' one. The next episode will feature a very friendly interaction with a player and I hope to emphasize as much RP/MP as I can. It's one reason I love Arelith. I've personally never had a negative experience, & I'm confident that trend will continue. :)
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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by MRFTW » Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:33 am

Nidea Lynn wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:28 pm
snip
-ama is a great tool for new players that might be worth mentioning. We're pretty good at on-the-job training for new players, nowadays! :)

Lovely pair of videos so far, looking forward to more. Very explanatory, also for migrants to here from other servers.

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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by Nidea Lynn » Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:35 pm

Thank you for the kind words. I'm not sure I knew about -ama so it would be a great feature to explore and advertise. Thank you for the tip! :)
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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by Irongron » Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:00 pm

Nidea Lynn wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:39 pm
Irongron, you're correct and others have already fulfilled your prophetic warning. In fact, no MMO that I've covered has been immune from others (hopefully) therapeutically voicing their experiences that have been colored by less than ideal situations whether fair or of their own design.
I can't deny that it is sad to see, even though I've witnessed it many times. Often it can be the same person posting repeatedly trying to keep people from trying the server, with the same criticisms whether against myself, the staff or the players themselves.

It's been suggested to me that we should do more to fight our corner but between the official forums and then discord I certainly I'm not going to spend my time engaging with the same people repeatedly on other platforms, but I can at least answer some of the issues and accusations now.

Of course I don't doubt people have had bad experiences, or resent their desire to air them, but false claims can get trying.

As an example, reading (once again) that people get banned for criticising developers. Developers on our staff don't have DM client access, or access to the tools to ban people, OR the DM forums. Furthermore any bans are done by a vote of the entire DM staff, if for anything other than a clear and severe rule break. Naturally all are fully logged.

And then of course there is the age old accusation that the DMs work together to champion their chosen factions and are themselves therefore bias..

I don't deny that DMs will have natural bias based upon their player experience and those they've been in contact with, that is going to happen in so small a community, where are DMs are also players, but there are means by which we try to mitigate this problem.

First is how the DMs are recruited from the player base. Rather then being invited, all players are free to apply when we have an opening. Sure, there is an initial application phase where as admins we review the past the record and decide who can go on to the interviews, but that's a relatively low bar to clear.

The interviews themselves are conducted by the dms, with the participants fully anonymous, the DMs running the interviews have no idea who the applicants are, and they are judged solely by the answer to questions put forward.

In the end...the DMs vote. The truth is that DMs are players who chose to apply, and voted for, by other players who once did the same.

Even once on the team, oversight continues, they are asked not to handle cases related their friends, or to take action that can be seen to favour their player side faction. All the activity in regards to players and their reportes are filed, and peer reviewed, while every time a DM uses tools to check the logs (reading back over another player activity, chat and tells) it is logged, and reported to admins to ensure it is always done for legitimate reasons. We also have an appeal process where players can go first to head DM, then finally admins if they feel they have been treated unfairly.

Does all of this DMs and their decisions are above reproach?

No, like players themselves can, and do, sometimes break rules and are fired from the team.

While the above isnt the only way, I am proud of our checks and balances but such things are rarely perfect, and so long as we continue with a policy of DMs by application from the player base, joining the team under anonymity to prevent bias, there will definitely continue to be occasional issues.

I consider this a price well worth paying and would not wish to switch to a system of personal invitation and appointment.

The next obvious question is, if all the above is true, why do we continue to generate so many angry ex players?

There are two answers here really, the first, less interesting one is that we simply don't, every year several thousand different players pass through our doors, and the proportion of these who go on to feel wounded by the experience is thankfully very small.

But the main reason this happens is that, as players, we all generally feel justified in our conduct, and may not welcome being reprimanded for it. Sometimes players reflect and deal with it, while others they will just go away feeling VERY, VERY ANGRY, to have been judged at all.


It doesn't matter if one works in law enforcement, as a soccer referee, or as a DM on a 20 year old video game, there is a universal truth that very often the perpetrator of a crime, considers themselves a victim. On Arelith this is most often demonstrated by a player breaking a rule because they feel justified in doing so, it may be because 'everyone is doing it' or 'the other side did it' or simply that was a 'bad rule' in the first place.

The end result is that they can come away from their encounter with staff with a sizeable chip on their shoulder about the lack of fair treatment, with some going on to rage quit, vowing to tell everyone that will listen about the injustice, sometimes bluntly telling us that we will lose 'hundreds' of players because of this.

But here's the terrible irony - quite often? They don't (quit that is). Sure they announce that they are leaving, go out of their way to encourage others to leave or never try Arelith, but they soon quietly rejoin under another name, browse our forums, follow us on social media (I mean, if they're commenting, right?).

Relatively recently I saw it again- a player, unhappy with a ruling, publicly quitting the server and decrying its staff. Only to quietly rejoin under a new name a few days later. There has been discussions on staff as to whether this should be covered by the rules, as telling others not to play Arelith, while continuing to do so oneself, isn't particularly community minded.

Ultimately though, nobody with such a view on Arelith will be remotely convinced or swayed by my above text, if anything it will only add more fuel to that fire. I know too, for some, I myself am the enemy, just as was the previous server owner (and the one before that).

I do agree though, one one thing with our detractors - that there are so many other fantastic NwN servers out there, many with eager DMs that will bring new players in to carefully constructed, fantastic stories, something we just can't do on Arelith.

Players new to NwN should definitely give them a fair chance before just following the numbers to the most populated servers.

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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by Nidea Lynn » Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:46 pm

Hey Irongron,

thank you for pulling back the curtain to shine light on how the server administration team takes steps to remove potential bias and enable the direction of the story of the server to evolve as naturally as possible.

I personally see the enthusiasm of critics as endearing; they must care /so/ much about their experience on the server as to go out of their way and share something deeply personal with absolute strangers. Even if reports aren't historically grounded or were colored by internal bias, I see such passion as an indication of how deeply one can become connected to Arelith, its story, and its players. So, hopefully it can be channeled for good while being a (hopefully innocuous) valve to release some steam.
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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by CNS » Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:46 am

Just want to say I enjoyed your videos.

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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by Nidea Lynn » Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:14 pm

Thank you very much for the kind words. Please let me know how they can be improved or if I mistakenly described a mechanic/feature of Arelith! :)
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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by Nidea Lynn » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:25 pm

Since I do not desire to spam the forum with a new post every time a new video is posted (Wednesdays at 6 AM PST), I will simply reply here to indicate another episode has aired.

For those interested, I welcome honest feedback in particular around my understanding of NWN1's mechanics since my knowledge of the ruleset & Arelith's customizations are not perfect. Thank you! :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9TStsRgaZE

edit: words
Last edited by Nidea Lynn on Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by Nidea Lynn » Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:32 pm

Adventuring in a Dangerous ... Basement? :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djbGhAdX6wo
Last edited by Nidea Lynn on Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by Nidea Lynn » Wed Feb 02, 2022 2:06 pm

Last edited by Nidea Lynn on Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by Irongron » Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:33 pm

These continue to be great; super narration and overall very professional.

A few random points, as I don't want to flooded video comments with 'official' responses.

First off - Skal is HARD. I designed it for group play, hence that fire pit in the centre of the village - it's a perfect place to group up.

Second is a spot of relevant history. I was involved in early tests of the Enhanced Edition, essentially as a volunteer tester and for giving feedback. I'd signed an NDA and was thus unable to share what was, at the time, incredible news for a game community that had struggled through the previous decade on an unsupported title.

The relevance to Skal, in particular, is as the release date neared I was increasingly aware that NwN was to be released without any new 'playerside' content (improvements at that point where all 'under the hood' so to speak). Arelith had a large playerbase, who would therefore be required to purchase a new game in order to continue playing. As I had personally made the (not entirely popular) decision to risk major bugs and migrate Arelith to EE immediately upon release, while certainly not a decision I in any way regret, I was not comfortable in players investing money with no immediately discernible gain - thus I made Skal - an area for players new to NwN to learn the basics, and for our existing players to experience new content.

Skal, then, was made in a few short weeks, instead of gradually over a decade, and rather than being a 'living world' it is, at its core, more akin to a game like Icewind Dale in that it is a single player hub surrounded by dungeon content. It is also somewhat basic by comparison.

Another way in which it differs is the general lack of modded/hak content - the new models that have greatly improved the appearance of the larger server. Very soon after the EE release I was working professionally on the official premium module - Tyrants of the Moonsea. As lead level design I was also able to request many new assets, which were later updated into the main game, and eventually incorporated into Arelith.

The server is vast, and akin to those megastructures that require painting all year round, so older Arelith areas are always being improved and updated. As Skal was the last 'old' NwN area to be produced on Arelith (thus the most recent), it will likely also be the last to be updated with new content.

Despite all of this; the rushed production, simplistic layout and relative ugliness it does continue to be surprisingly popular with players.

Anyway, find at least one adventuring buddy if you don't want to be buried in the tundra (also in that last video - the reason you couldn't find your own corpse is it deletes as you respawn)

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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by AskRyze » Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:19 pm

Irongron wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:00 pm
The end result is that they can come away from their encounter with staff with a sizeable chip on their shoulder about the lack of fair treatment, with some going on to rage quit, vowing to tell everyone that will listen about the injustice, sometimes bluntly telling us that we will lose 'hundreds' of players because of this.

But here's the terrible irony - quite often? They don't (quit that is). Sure they announce that they are leaving, go out of their way to encourage others to leave or never try Arelith, but they soon quietly rejoin under another name, browse our forums, follow us on social media (I mean, if they're commenting, right?).

Relatively recently I saw it again- a player, unhappy with a ruling, publicly quitting the server and decrying its staff. Only to quietly rejoin under a new name a few days later. There has been discussions on staff as to whether this should be covered by the rules, as telling others not to play Arelith, while continuing to do so oneself, isn't particularly community minded.
Righto. I'm going to be controversial here, since we're airing dirty laundry. This is probably a bad idea but whatever, I'm down with the coof and have nothing better to do with my life. Let's put on a good song and perhaps give a bit of perspective from a source that isn't likely going to come from anywhere else and might give some insight into this seedy underbelly, so to speak.

That post right there? Disgruntled and frankly irate players, raging against the dying of the light? That was me. Well, me and untold and uncounted numbers of other players. But in specific, I have been able to slot myself right into that descriptive category. And yes, I'm still playing Arelith. Now there's two questions that I'm going to bet immediately sprung in to your head as you're reading this.
  1. What happened that got you so mad at the DMs?
  2. Why did you come back?
In response to the first question, I'll do my best to be vague, for the sake of the DMs and to not start drama or scuttlebutt. A very long time ago, there was an awfully big conflict in Andunor. When I mean awfully big, I mean big enough that everyone even in the neighborhood of level 30 was taking a side. It was war, plain and simple, and the final confrontation came down to a fight in the hub with no fewer than 40 individual characters tossing hellballs and EDKs left and right (remember when EDK was godly?). The side I was backing won - we were the only ones left standing after the conflict. To say there was a lot of collateral damage was to put things to an understatement, and both sides had engaged in skirmishes for most of the day prior. It was a bloodbath, and so many PCs died that day. But still - we won.

In less than a week, our house won the election in the Devil's Table, solidifying our victory further. One week later, our faction leader was banned. Two days after that, his second, appointed in his place, was banned as well. From our perspectives, and what little screenshots were able to be salvaged from the event, the DMs made a clear statement: Our house was not welcome on Arelith.

I've had a long time to reflect, and I'm a very different person than I was all those years ago. But to say that I was mad in the moment was an utter understatement. We all were - Our victory, snatched from us and thrown into the jaws of defeat, from as far as we could tell. The entire group - the family I'd spent the better part of that year playing with, laughing with, scheming to bring Lolth's reckoning onto the surface world with - shattered in an instant. Of course, the only thing we had to go on were the screenshots provided by the people getting banned - hell of an authoritative source, I know. Statements that they were being banned for 'being a negative influence in the community' and violating the 'Be Nice rule' seemed like a tissue-thin defense for what we was as abject favoritism, the DMs picking a side in the most literal sense.

Sometimes I think that there are cases where a punishment is handed out because they know someone is violating a rule but cannot collect enough conclusive evidence. I know this is abjectly a case in the real world - Look at the history of tax evasion and the story of Al Capone. Without some increase in transparency - a point where I still disagree with the DM team, but at this point have put down my torch and pitchfork over - I'll never know. What I do know is that the house leader was, as I later found out in conversations after his ban, a serial ban evader himself, known for saying things like "An Arelith ban is just a $10 fine, $5 if there's a Beamdog sale". What the house's second was up to I don't know - but that's kind of the point. I don't know. Their lives and mine intersect only at a single point, on a 20 year old game, largely forgotten by the outside world. Even within that intersection, I had no idea what they were up to beyond my few interactions with them in that experience. Over time that anger cooled. Most of the people involved aren't even part of the DM team anymore. Some I've gotten to know 'in person' so to speak by traveling around other NWN servers - it was a shock that I had harbored that much hatred toward them at the time. And in a way it really was hatred. I hated them for destroying what I came to know as a family, for stealing our victory from us. But really... I just only had part of the picture.


Now to answer the second question: Why did I come back?

This is where I'm gonna have to disagree with Irongron here.
I do agree though, one one thing with our detractors - that there are so many other fantastic NwN servers out there, many with eager DMs that will bring new players in to carefully constructed, fantastic stories, something we just can't do on Arelith.
There are so many NWN servers floating around there. And there are so many. I'd say more than you can count but really there's only a couple hundred. And each of them bring their own thing to the table - deep puzzling experiences, a gothic horror atmosphere, a complex roleplaying dynamic, and world upon world upon world to explore. In a way, though, that's exactly the point... Each of these experiences are deeply and fundamentally different.

Let me divert for a moment to talk about how I came to realize that NWN existed. No, I've not been playing this game for decades like a great many of you here - I think, on the scheme of things, I'm honestly a relatively new player, so to speak. So, there I was, talking about Pathfinder in the days before 5th edition with a friend of mine on a discord server when some guy I didn't know (One of my friend's friends) jumps into the call. "AskRyze, you like D&D right? Cool, I'm gonna give you a game, but you're gonna have to do something for me."

He proceeds to send me his GOG login and have me download NWN Diamond edition, hands me a fresh CD key, and instructs me on how to, unbeknownst to me, register for citizenship and vote in an election. I, knowing utterly nothing about the game at this point, closed the program and went about my life. Years later, I was going through and cleaning up my hard drive when I saw this same little icon, and I thought to myself "... You know, I never actually played that game. Let's give it a shot."

And here I am.

Fast forward a few years. Andunor's been flipped on its head. The family I've cultivated has had the rug pulled out from under them. We're left adrift. Many go to Albion Online to get their PVP fix. I do for a time, but MMOs have never really stuck to me. So I pick up my rucksack and start traveling to the different servers. It's really only then that I realize how much Arelith has shaped what I come to expect from the game.

Arelith strikes a strange balance when it comes to immersion, one that is very difficult to replicate. Back when I first really stared playing proper, writs hadn't even been implemented - by modern standards, leveling was a glacially slow process. You didn't just get 30,000 XP handed to you every day (40,000 if you can sign up for the Radiant Heart). Other servers either go too far in one direction (Yes, I do actually like seeing my XP numbers go up; no, I don't like the game telling me to stop playing if I play for too long) or too far in the other (I'm looking at you, The Server That Rhymes With "Win Tar").

Arelith is also, surprisingly, incredibly accessible. A great majority of changes (barring recent - cleric paths fundamentally change how the class is played and I don't think they're exactly opt-in) either build upon what a class is already good at or are simple alterations to the balance of the game. Equipment is simple, and necessary, but not playstyle-alteringly so, with again a few exceptions (As mentioned elsewhere on the forums, UMD books all but completely undo Loremageddon). Compare that with other servers, who (shocking, I know) are even more committed to FOIG culture and as a result are infuriatingly opaque to players who haven't been participating in them for decades. Furthermore, a point not so easily put aside (at the risk of sounding like a suckup) is that Arelith has some of the best designed systems in NWN. Its focus on medium immersion, consistent updates to keep the meta fresh, a charming variety of custom classes, and absolutely nothing getting in the way of you just trying to play the damn game. And I mean that when I say it. You can, right now, make a wizard, take summon and a few spell focus feats, and stroll right out the deep gate and into the waiting arms of the bonefields - and nothing stops you. If that's all you want from the game, go right ahead. If all you want to do is cut the pants off your tunic, pull up your blouse and tabard, and serve drinks in Cordor? You can do that. And everything in-between is still accessible to you.

Finally, Arelith's player base is one of its greatest draws, and the reason I felt almost ashamed for dragging myself back here, again and again. On Arelith, you can and often will encounter players out in the wild. Go to Cordor, the Logging Camp, or Andunor, and you will see a bustling stream of players at nearly every moment of the day. I cannot count the number of servers I've wandered through, aimlessly, the streets little more than a ghost town, only to find out the singular other player online is part of a faction antagonistic to mine and will likely turn me into two crits and 25 XP if I so much as drop stealth in his line of sight. It's a simple fact that these Persistent Worlds are meant to be played, and they're meant to be played by a plurality of people.

All these factors combined (and, this may just be my sunk cost fallacy speaking very loudly and persuasively to me here) basically mean that Arelith presents one of the most genuinely well-designed and well-curated NWN experiences around. And, frankly, I doubt it'd still be around if it wasn't.


Well, that's about it. /rant over. I'm putting this up on the wayback machine just in case... But I hope what I've said hasn't crossed any lines. And I'd hoped that what I've said so far has brought some insight into a perspective you probably haven't heard from often.

Thank you all for your time. Lolth Tlu Malla.
AskRyze
Flower Power wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2023 10:53 pm

You say this, but being MILDLY MEAN to people is treated like a war crime on Arelith.


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Kenji
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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by Kenji » Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:03 am

AskRyze wrote:
Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:19 pm
(barring recent - cleric paths fundamentally change how the class is played and I don't think they're exactly opt-in)
Cleric players can still pick Path of the Cleric and build as how they were built.

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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by MRFTW » Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:15 am

I was very pleased to see you avenge yourself, OP 🙂

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Dr. B
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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by Dr. B » Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:56 pm

Just want to observe that PvP on Arelith is not consensual.

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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by Nidea Lynn » Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:04 pm

Cheers everyone.

Thank you all for your comments, history, & corrections. The next few episodes will feature group play and I hope to add the note about non-consensual PvP in the future. My memory of "RP-led PvP' overrode the technical accuracy of 'non-consensual.' I am also hopeful that my videos provide space for those like AskRyze to therapeutically process collateral fallout from disappointing events. I equally hope that restoration & forgiveness can take place even if legitimate wrongdoing was done.

Thank you all for the kind words as I wish to bring new players to enjoy Arelith. :)
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Re: Arelith in 2022

Post by Nidea Lynn » Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:06 pm

Last edited by Nidea Lynn on Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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