Quartersneaking- Thoughts?

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I was going to put this in feedback, but one, I don't own a quarter, and two, this sort of veers into suggestion territory, so I wanted to get feedback from others who actually have quarters and those who break into them so I could frame it as feedback on the subject rather than starting off by framing a suggestion. Two parts.

1: For those who sneak into quarters - what is your preferred method, and how often do you find yourself sneaking through the door right behind someone, even if there's no reasonable cover to explain how you got through the door? Do you feel there are alternatives to this method? Does it make sense to you? Do you wish there were another method to enter- perhaps a window or chimney that you could enter through with a glass-cutter and a skill check or some sort of climb and dexterity check? Do you feel you have any other recourse than sneaking in this way and sneaking out without interacting unless you want to die?

2: For those who have quarters, both those who haven't been snuck into and and those who have - how religious are you about using true seeing before you open a door? Does it make sense to you? Do you wish there were other methods, like increased lighting, that would make it (sensibly) harder to sneak in in such a way? Do you feel you have any recourse other than burning a high level spell to open your door, and do you feel anyone you catch allows any interaction other than death?


My premise is that quarterbreaking/sneaking is meant to be something that can provide interactive fun, because it's not a 'victimless crime' player-side. I don't feel the current system provides the player-side security for two people who aren't already in each others Circle of Trust to interactively navigate this scenario with anything other than annoyance, hostility, or dread on an OOC level, and I'm looking for ways to work around this - it's all well and good to say you get the RP you create out of this situation, but if the majority feel there isn't enjoyable RP to be had because of the system framework, what I'm looking for is ideas that could mitigate this feeling- something that can maybe provide one less beaten horse thread every six months about whether or not quarter-breaking is worth the cost, and something that can instead lead to kudos threads over a spying or theft story arc with fewer hurt feelings and eye rolls about cheese.

[Aradin]

1) Never made a quarterbreaker, no comment.

2) To be clear, the following is my personal opinion about how I play Arelith and should not be read as a belief system I feel other players should have. You do you.

I almost never use True Seeing for the same reason I dislike scrying wards. Someone being able to spy on my political meeting or being able to threaten me in my quarter is always always more fun and engaging than simply never allowing myself - and other players - the chance for those interactions.
That's not to say I don't think it's never justified. If I'm a high-profile character with an assassin bounty on my head or a faction member entering somewhere that has sensitive information stored in bookshelves or something, then I can see the justification for a quick True Seeing before entering the quarter.
Overall I feel like I see far more paranoid characters than I should, but it gives me a chuckle more than I think it's a flaw in game design. I occasionally see characters with no notoriety whatsoever using True Seeing (from scrolls, no less!) before every quarter entry and I laugh to myself inside like "Why are you doing this? No one cares who you are. You have no enemies and no valuables. Why are you expending resources like this?"

In the end I feel like it comes to personal choice. I'm not sure this is something that needs to be "fixed", but I'll still read this conversation with interest. Maybe someone out there has some nifty ideas that I don't.

[ReverentBlade]

Something worth thinking about:

How much would you "roleplay" with someone breaking into your home IRL? I've been the victim of a home invasion once. I beat the guy bloody and threw him down the apartment stairs. I didn't stop for a chat.

Are adventurers that are much more well-armed and powerful going to be all that much different? What depth of RP are you expecting?

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Something worth thinking about:

How much would you "roleplay" with someone breaking into your home IRL? I've been the victim of a home invasion once. I beat the guy bloody and threw him down the apartment stairs. I didn't stop for a chat.

Are adventurers that are much more well-armed and powerful going to be all that much different? What depth of RP are you expecting?

I don't really disagree with this sentiment, and I'm not saying that reaction isn't perfectly justified OOC or IC. I get where you're coming from. I guess what I'm angling for, more specifically from this exact position, is what could be done, on a game level, to give you the comfort to think about other options?

Immediately beating them into a corpse and then (if you wanted to) offering them a raise in jail is a sensible angle, but if you want to try to question them should it be the only angle? Perhaps someone hired them. Perhaps there's a series of events that your character might or might not care about that led to that point. Perhaps this person spied on other people and you can use that information, if you can get it out of them.

Perhaps you're playing a character that doesn't care about any of this, and that's totally fine, too!

But if you're playing a character that cares about any of that, what options do you have to pursue in that direction other than your default predisposition to knock them out and throw them down the stairs, and maybe question them after they wake up if their neck doesn't snap?

I'm looking for additions to the system that will mechanically provide the victim and perpetrator with a sense of each other and assurance to say 'maybe if they get away/maybe if I get caught, it doesn't have to end with nothing to show for it.'

I realize it's a big ask- that's why I'm looking for ideas outside my own brainbox.

[Gilbert K]

Quarter-sneaker here. Just logged on to post my thoughts, since you asked. I will respond to each question individually.

what is your preferred method

A good magician never reveals his tricks, but I feel comfortable enough to say that my preferred method involves multiple people and decoy tactics. I like to think that this creates some manner of fun interactivity, even if I am just trying to look through someone's stuff.

how often do you find yourself sneaking through the door right behind someone, even if there's no reasonable cover to explain how you got through the door?

Almost never. But I'd like to address that even if I did just slip in behind someone, it doesn't make a difference if I can explain how I did it. Fact is, I did.
If I have enough Hide/MS to slip past you, I don't need to emote the manner in which I fooled you. You didn't see me do it. I'm not sure what the current DM ruling on this is, but this is my attitude towards it until corrected by the team.

Do you feel there are alternatives to this method? Does it make sense to you? Do you wish there were another method to enter- perhaps a window or chimney that you could enter through with a glass-cutter and a skill check or some sort of climb and dexterity check?

In a perfect world, yeah, I'd love to see skill checks like you mentioned that could provide alternative means to entering quarters. But speaking frankly, players on Arelith are way too protective of their personal effects. The community would riot if it was made any easier to get to their storage chests. Or maybe that's just the jaded cynic in me. Prove me wrong, Arelith?

Do you feel you have any other recourse than sneaking in this way and sneaking out without interacting unless you want to die?

When you make a thief character, you're doing so with the unspoken understanding that you're probably going to die from getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar. And that's okay! I've been kill/bashed for pickpocketting and quarter-breaking, without hyperbole, dozens of times. What I feel you might be asking with this question, though, is "Do you trust the victim of your quarter-sneaking to give you a fun, interactive experience if they catch you?" And the answer, of course, is no. I'm not necessarily giving them one, am I?

But if you are just asking if I see any alternative to just sneaking in, doing what I came to do, and then leaving...then no. What incentive do I have to let myself be seen?

[ReverentBlade]

Cogent points. I'll bite. I play two characters that are on wildly different ends of this equation. One is a CG rogue that routinely broke into the houses of evil or suspicious characters to feed intelligence to an allied Harper. He was -never- caught, even though my expectation was fully to be beaten with a minimum of RP if he ever was. Any dialogue I would have considered an added bonus and a courtesy, but it was never expected because I considered it unrealistic to begin with.

I was never caught because I know how to use line of sight, and because I would profile targets first to learn their habits or capabilities. True Sight spammers and spotters would be considered hard targets and I'd turn to the Scryer in the organization for that intel. Its very possible to do this kind of RP on the server, but the deck is, perhaps rightfully, stacked in favor of the property owner. It takes skill and dedication.

My other character is the paranoid mage that pops a TS before every door even through literally no one knows or cares about her.

As for suggestions, I think that quarterbreaking should perhaps be made -marginally- easier, but it MUST come with ways for people with Search to gather meaningful clues as to the perpetrator's identity. Tracks have been made an absolute joke, for instance. Tool marks on doors and locks, hair or debris left behind, and tracks that are persistent enough that you can call a guard or investigator over to come and take a look at your burgled house. Spellcasters should also be able to target a divination spell of some sort on a bit of hair or a broken lockpick to get some details. More details if the spellcaster has divination focii.

To go along with this, law enforcement organizations need to be given some tools to interactively respond to the new vulnerabilities in their community. There is no way to "call the police" in a PC home environment, leaving abrupt violence and self-defense as your only sensible answer. Guards are absolutely handcuffed and hamstrung by an underdeveloped Search system, and have no meaningful way to respond to emergencies unless the victim happens to have a Bottle or is an illusionist, and knows the specific PC to send a message to.

Maybe alarm bells in expensive homes and close-by outdoors in residential areas, that notify PC in the guard faction?

Being part of the guard is a bit of a joke, you only get to handle blatant stuff that happens directly under your nose.

TLDR: Being a rogue is hard but you're basically impossible to catch if you know what you're doing. Give guards and investigators more tools and counterplay so that you can give rogues more options on the flip side of the coin. This would make more RP interactions happen in general across the board.

[Richrd]

Oh boy, a topic I can really get behind. For context, I have done more sneaking-into-places with this method than is reasonable. So I would consider myself somewhat of an advanced amateur in this field. For how this came to pass: Playing multiple high sneak characters without lockpicking still intent on entering someone's property makes you quickly realize how you don't have any other choice. Aside from asking nicely.

1: For those who sneak into quarters - what is your preferred method, and how often do you find yourself sneaking through the door right behind someone, even if there's no reasonable cover to explain how you got through the door? Do you feel there are alternatives to this method? Does it make sense to you? Do you wish there were another method to enter- perhaps a window or chimney that you could enter through with a glass-cutter and a skill check or some sort of climb and dexterity check? Do you feel you have any other recourse than sneaking in this way and sneaking out without interacting unless you want to die?

This is a clutter of questions so I'll break it down.
Preferred method? Going through the door right behind someone.
No reasonable cover to explain how I got through the door? I frankly disagree with the question itself. It goes by the logic of the thought experiment of "if a tree falls and nobody hears it, does it make a sound?" The cover is you yourself. To avoid being seen and heard makes you practically insivible. Ninjas in feudal Japan were said to have had the skill to become one with someone's shadow. To mimic the movement to a degree of being able to hover mere inches away from full-body-contact, yet remaining undetected. I believe an epic level sneaky character with skill foci and epic skill foci in sneaking, set within a fantasy world, would surely be able to pull off the moves of fabled real life ninjas.
Do I wish there other methods to enter? Yes and no. Yes for big faction bases and mansions, no for single apartments and single-PC-housings. The latter simply so people don't have to invest into barred windows, the former because it can serve for awesome story moments and because big multi-layered faction bases/mansions will always have more locked doors inside as well. Meaning just because you got in won't mean you will get everywhere. A favorite example of this is the Zhentarim base in Minmir. Won't say more on that, who knows what I mean will know what I mean.
Do I feel I have any other recourse than sneaking in this way and sneaking out without interacting unless I want to die? That is a bit of a strange question. If I had another way of sneaking into a property without going body-to-body with someone who could possibly have invested into high spot or listen gear + feats or just pop one of the multiple ways of True Seeing then I would have chosen that path. What often gets forgotten is that this particular method of entering a sectioned off area is VERY risky, only second to bashing the door down. And if you get caught you are basically with your pants lose. I will get into the "without interacting" part later on.

Do you feel you have any recourse other than burning a high level spell to open your door, and do you feel anyone you catch allows any interaction other than death?

As always I would advocate for the use of -subdual instead of outright killing a caught sneak. More fun in that for all parties involved, unless you aren't on the server to actually roleplay. And here's a hint: Pop True Seeing AFTER you closed the door behind you. That way the sneak will be trapped.

My premise is that quarterbreaking/sneaking is meant to be something that can provide interactive fun, because it's not a 'victimless crime' player-side. I don't feel the current system provides the player-side security for two people who aren't already in each others Circle of Trust to interactively navigate this scenario with anything other than annoyance, hostility, or dread on an OOC level, and I'm looking for ways to work around this - it's all well and good to say you get the RP you create out of this situation, but if the majority feel there isn't enjoyable RP to be had because of the system framework, what I'm looking for is ideas that could mitigate this feeling- something that can maybe provide one less beaten horse thread every six months about whether or not quarter-breaking is worth the cost, and something that can instead lead to kudos threads over a spying or theft story arc with fewer hurt feelings and eye rolls about cheese.

Here comes the big part about interactions. Every quarterbreak that results in something being stolen should have some RP following it up or at least a clear message that something was taken.
Some examples from my own thieving streaks.
Sneak into the hideout of a high-ranking Underdark necromancer and see a super fancy magic globe. Take it, bring it back to the friends of your PC, show it off and proclaim openly what you have accomplished. Leave a message for the scumbag necromancer to make him aware that it was taken.
Get into Sencliff's pirate-only areas. Find the anvil upon which dozens of Paladins have been broken and tortured. Leave a message, haul the damn thing out of there (spice it up by not just lensing out, actually carry the thing out of there and use the boat to get off the island), deliver it to the Radiant Heart for purging.
Dart through the door of a hin's home before it closes. Find a valuable piece of art. Ransom it back anonymously through a third party for a decent sum of money.
Cordor's guard barracks. Get through the door because you found one member of the Guard who let his guard down too much (sorry for the pun) and steal their big pile of gold. Leave anonymous messages inside the barracks and the town board with your motives and proclaiming what you have done. Then ask the guards just the next day about the messages you left while acting like you are just a curious bystander. Find out that their storage logs weren't even listing all the gold you stole. Dab three times on these poor fools by selling all you stole to Cordor's trade minister at an unreasonably high price.

Now if someone snuck through the door right behind you just to spy and not steal anything? Then consider the spying's results to be further RP that you could be a part of.

[Arienette]

I have experienced this multiple times across multiple characters. In every case it was someone who was disguised and used a lens as soon as confronted.

I have no reason to believe that people who do this are interested in being “caught”.

[MRFTW]

I play a spotbot with an interest in what your characters are doing, so I work with QBs from time to time. I can break amateur doors myself. I've never stolen anything from a quarter, I'd say 95% of my time non-consensually in people's rooms has been reading reports on bookshelves. The other 5% is scary, scary people who want a conversation with someone in their own home, with a teleport ward, to really make a point.

1. Sneaking in a door behind someone doesn't make sense. We're playing a fantasy game, so I can handwave it, sure, but I'd love to see another human sneak by me in a doorway. Fey or forest gnome, maybe, but a full sized human, hin or elf? On an IC level, my character would never work with a rogue that showed such a clear disregard for risk.

Some kind of skill check to get in via climbing through a window or similar would be cool, but I agree people generally won't like more avenues to get in their quarters.

2. For most characters, True Seeing is the only way they can ensure they're alone in their room. This makes it difficult to feel safe if you can't cast it yourself. I wouldn't personally PvP someone in my room, but that's because I'm PvP averse and my character wants their business card.

On the subject of sneaking into rooms to read reports and not move anything, most guard barracks are run like fort Knox, as is almost any private property owned by a player of consequence. The level of protection added to rooms to prevent storage chest griefing does stifle a lot of intelligence-gathering, though I wouldn't like to say if I think that's good or bad. My character has plenty of RP avenues already so it's not like I'm standing around, waiting for my QB friend to come online so my character is valid again.

[xf1313]

I never made breaker but own a quarter

1. Yes please, climb would be very cool, I have a rogue with high open lock, if I sneak in anywhere, I’d do it to visit other’s room really.

2, If I do meet people as a intruder, l‘ll be making noises and dropping notes to play with others lol. If I meet a breaker, I ‘ll try to smoke the room, dust everything, unleash an army of bees etc. to drive the one out and rp. hope more people seize the opportunity to RP and have fun, instead of summon an army and start killing.

[holy_Avenger]

I have experienced this multiple times across multiple characters. In every case it was someone who was disguised and used a lens as soon as confronted.

I have no reason to believe that people who do this are interested in being “caught”.

Exactly the same problem.

Either Lens or Attunement potion, that was always the only answer, when I/we caught someone.

I've seen many ways how to "break" into the quarter without lockpick. Either you follow person that has no high spot enough. Or you simply wait next to the door (especially when you know person is inside, this way they'll never have a chance to realize someone went in from the outside - which is terribly, terribly stupid, both IC and OOC). Our faction was being robbed day by day like this, some time ago, by the same thief. Slipped in, quickly moved to storage, took the bag and lensed away.

As I've never really been too much of a PvP guy - since this was happening very frequently to us at certain time, I was ready to attack on sight though. (Especially because of the anonymous messages left in the house/quarter stating "Haha, robbed you again.")

[Tabby]

Letters like "haha, robbed you again" sounds, like... just griefing really, that is sad.

Perhaps.. maybe perhaps, to be able to break in quarters is locked behind a RP score of 20.. making sure, people that do this sort of things, have a deeper understanding of be able to RP, in some way. At least know the "be nice rule"
It would the very least have less "haha, robbed you again" griefing moments.

I have been quarterbreaking with a character, not one on my signature list, but a fourth toon.
And i know how griefish it can feel (lost lots of stuff on Tabby, due to QB ins.)

When i approach a quarter, i do it in plain sight (no hiding), but with a Bluff. And its no lenses, its basically.

Find a target. Go some where, a corner. Change outfit in plain sight. Put on a bluff. Walk to Quarter, break in (no hiding), take leave a note, leave, walk to corner, debluff and take old clothes on.

Trust me.. the excitement of doing it this way, is tenfolded... so much more feeling of danger!
And its rewarding more, when you actually gets away with it. All i can hope is, when caught.. there will be some RP of sorts
But if killed directly.. *shrugs* im the adult, i can handle that

[chris a gogo]

Never made a sneak to follow characters through quarters doors.

I have never been quarter sneaked as I do pop a TS after entering because I consider it to be a terrible practice, this said i would attempt to role play with them before any combat or just throwing them out, the outcome would depend on my character at the time of course.

Would like to add I hate quarter breaking and there is no role play around it for the victims, where as I love pickpockets that will chat to you while robbing you.

[Tabby]

Would like to add I hate quarter breaking and there is no role play around it for the victims, where as I love pickpockets that will chat to you while robbing you.

I would imagine that MOST players would have it like you really, it really depends on how the thief RP it, how they make it possible to be caught. There been some very good suggestions to how to be a gopd RP thief.
I would myself follow some of these suggestions.

Hence.. why it should be locked behind a RPR 20 or so.. so its not done by "haha, stole from you again" types

[Richrd]

Letters like "haha, robbed you again" sounds, like... just griefing really, that is sad.

Perhaps.. maybe perhaps, to be able to break in quarters is locked behind a RP score of 20.. making sure, people that do this sort of things, have a deeper understanding of be able to RP, in some way. At least know the "be nice rule"

Locking the act of breaking into quarters behind 20 RPR is reasonable but how would you implement that aside from just setting up another rule and then hoping that everyone sticks with it?

I think demeaning the general practice of thievery RP to "lol it's griefing" is just really dismissive. If it were griefing it'd not be allowed by the DMs. Clear and simple. If in your eyes the minor inconvenience of having some in-game pixels getting stolen is a break of the "be nice" rule then we might as well say "oh I didn't like losing in PvP so it's a break of the be-nice-rule". And where'd that road get us to in the end?

[WaldoT]

One issue of quarter-sneaking that has little or no methods of catching the sneak is when. The sneak waits outside of a quarter for it to open and the person on the other side is transitioning from inside to outside of their quarter. The sneak is able to transition in without any threat of detection.

[Evianna]

One issue of quarter-sneaking that has little or no methods of catching the sneak is when. The sneak waits outside of a quarter for it to open and the person on the other side is transitioning from inside to outside of their quarter. The sneak is able to transition in without any threat of detection.

I would argue that the same is true for any Quarterbreaker solo build, and you're less likely to catch them than you are someone who sneaks inside.

The sneaker doesn't know if it's just you that left, or if there was a whole entourage inside waiting to kill them if they happen to unstealth to read your message board. It's a risk entering when the door opens, moreso than someone taking a quick look at the playerlist to see if you're online first before going to disarm your traps.

Sneaking in is bound by the same rules as breaking in, so I honestly don't see a problem.

[Wethrinea]

My characters usually don't have the means to TS all the time, nor reliably ward against scrying, so they are pretty much like most are RL when it comes to their electronic devices: We all (should) know that there are people out there capable of breaking and entering without us being able to detect them or do much about it. Some become paranoid and forsake such devices, but the vast majority banish the worry to the back of our minds and go about our lives as normal.

So with my characters. If a quartersneaker should be inept or unlucky enough to reveal themselves, they'll have to handle the situation there and then. But most of the time they don't really think much about it.

My hope is that in such a situation, those caught would be willing to make something out of it. I certainly am.

[AstralUniverse]

I never once casted TS after entering my quarter and found someone sneaking like " oh... hey there... *waves awkwardly*" when getting caught.

I always cast ts when entering a quarter if my character has ts in their spellbook. If they dont have it in their spellbook I wont ever burn a scroll for it.

If I played a sneak I would personally only break into a quarter (like that, or in any other method) to spy on people who are actually inside. The thought that people can easily enter my quarter when I'm *leaving* and thus can be inside without anyone ever knowing and also didnt need to pick the lock even, that's a concerning thought, I know it's against the rules but I also dont know if it can be enforced realistically without any report or anyone knowing.

That's my perspective.

[DM Monkey]

So long as people follow PvP Rules + Stealing Rules, everything is fine! Anything goes! You have spells, skills and abilities for a reason. Use what is at your disposal to succeed however your character would.

[Curve]

I know it's against the rules

I assume this is part of what DM_Monkey is talking about, but just to be clear sneaking into quarters this way is not against the rules.

[AstralUniverse]

I know it's against the rules

I assume this is part of what DM_Monkey is talking about, but just to be clear sneaking into quarters this way is not against the rules.

It's against the rules if you're sneaking into a quarter that someone is leaving. If I'm opening the door to leave my quarter and you're standing outside, waiting for the door to open, then you enter and see no one inside? Then you're not within the rules. It's only legal to *follow* someone into their quarter along with them as they *enter*. Just to be clear.

[Curve]

Can you show that rule/ruling? I’ve never heard of such.

[Richrd]

Same, never heard of this even though I've asked DMs. Though admittedly this was years ago when I last asked a DM about this specific case, so maybe it'd be nice to have a simple ruling be set in place in regards to this.

[ReverentBlade]

Arelith's invisible rules strike again. Sauce?