atmosphere and tone

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Ceyella
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Ceyella » Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:32 pm

DMs need to be more involved to drive RP. right now we have what amounts to endless bar RP because NOTHING happens besides pitter patter pvp that is pointless because of immortality. i remeber when DMs would have stuff like ghost randomly haunt cordor and everyone was trying to figure it out. it really drove actual RP over pissing contest then pointless pvp leading to 0000 resolution due to immortality. this is nothing like a D&D game and more like a co-op MMO.

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Borin Drakkmurl
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Borin Drakkmurl » Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:21 am

Ceyella wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:32 pm
DMs need to be more involved to drive RP. right now we have what amounts to endless bar RP because NOTHING happens besides pitter patter pvp that is pointless because of immortality. i remeber when DMs would have stuff like ghost randomly haunt cordor and everyone was trying to figure it out. it really drove actual RP over pissing contest then pointless pvp leading to 0000 resolution due to immortality. this is nothing like a D&D game and more like a co-op MMO.
I think that without quite wanting to, you just hit the nail on the head.

For a long time, the assumption, and even the selling point for Arelith, was that you didn't need DMs, nor even npcs, for roleplay to happen. In fact, that was the whole point. 95% of what npcs and devs did in other mmos and rpgs, was and is still, up to the player base on Arelith.

I have noticed the shift away from this mentality over the years, but there is only a part of that that is on the devs/dms' shoulders. Most of it is, again, up to the players. There is nothing better than leading by exemple.

These past few days I had a little free time, so I was poking around a little, doing something that was considered normal in my days but that today is perhaps seen more like a nerdy, weird thing:

Not grinding, not doing writs, not seeking pvp, but just bumping into folks in the wilds (the UD) and trying to stir up some interesting moments that made the world feel alive. Everyone I encountered stopped what they were doing and replied and interacted wonderfully.

Which just goes to show that the old adage is still true:

Be the difference you want to see. Dont wait on dms, devs nor even other players. If people put in enough effort into this sort of playstyle, it does eventually snowball and, before you know it, awesome rp is happening in ripples all around you.


Also, the be nice rule.

I know I go on about it often, and that somehow people always seem to find a way to overthink it and run around in circles trying to justify how being nice can be a complex, deep and multi layered thing.

It isn't, even if it permeates everything we do here.

Try and create cool rp where everyone can have some fun, dont treat Arelith like a weird cousin of WoW, and I bet that 99% of times people will happily reply accordingly.

It has worked for me, and I am pretty sure it will work for most other people.
Past characters: Daedin Angthalion; Lurg Norgar; Urebriwyn; Ubaldo Ferraz; Erodash Uzdshak; Borin; Belchior Heliodoro; Orestes Fontebela

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Hazard
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Hazard » Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:26 am

Ceyella wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:32 pm
DMs need to be more involved to drive RP. right now we have what amounts to endless bar RP because NOTHING happens besides pitter patter pvp that is pointless because of immortality. i remeber when DMs would have stuff like ghost randomly haunt cordor and everyone was trying to figure it out. it really drove actual RP over pissing contest then pointless pvp leading to 0000 resolution due to immortality. this is nothing like a D&D game and more like a co-op MMO.
There is no immortality. If people aren't taking death seriously, or saying things like "they'll/I'll just come back", report them.

Arigard
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Arigard » Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:32 am

The issue, put simply is continuity and contradictiton & that is not a "Dev issue" perse. That's an overall design vision for the whole server. Let's remember that there is an awful amount of work that goes into Arelith for free and within a world which has evolved and change radically over years of it being played.

However, it's very difficult to RP and place something into context which does not have proper continuity. How do you RP going into a dungeon, watching Abazuur, or named boss NPC get murdered and then watch it pop back 6 minutes later, as if nothing has happened and keep that RP fresh/inventive and so it actually makes sense? We already struggle with this with PC deaths who suddenly appear, or give no weight to death. That is one thing however that players have agency to deal with themselves (i.e it is on you as the player to give weight to that RP path).

The NPC issue is however something that clever mechanics could solve, like 99% of issues with immersion. That's why DnD as a basis has manuals and books covered almost all rules to do with any kind of outcome you can think of. The rules exist because they represent a fair way that makes sense and allows RP to flow from it.

Imagine if instead of having singular named NPCs, dungeons like RDI were "Lairs" where everytime a "Boss creature" died it pulled from a table of possible randomly generated other monsters that can step in to take their place. You kill a young worm there one cycle and the next it's a boss giant, or etc etc. We already have the bare bones for a system like this in the world already with 'boss' mobs in traditional dungeons. Nobody sees 'boss' mobs and think "Oh this breaks continuity" - because everytime they are randomly generated and have their own quirks/names etc. It's constantly having to reconcile killing the same creature 1000 times and breaking the forth wall of immersion that screams "This is clearly a game & not a world".

It's much easier for a player to go to a dungeon where the air of mystery is there everytime because they don't 100% know what creature is going to face off against them in that final room, than it is to go there knowing full well it's the same challenge day in/day out. That leads to placing more weight on that encounter, RPing when something interesting happens, or a challenge arises that they perhaps weren't prepared for and it keeps adventuring interesting.

For example, half the reason people check epic dungeons is to try and hunt the randomized rewards that it might provide. If players knew OOC that the exact thing they wanted 9addy or whatever) only spawned in one place all of the time, they'd only ever go there. But the randomization and the hunt for these items is what draws players and therefor RP into other areas. There is only so much pretending RP can achieve before it feels stale and lifeless because it has no tangible weight - mechanics provide actual feedback to choices made by characters that can then add to the world as a whole.

Continuity is what is important, however, the moment this is broken and things begin to stop having clear context, these kinds of issues will arise and no amount of trying to "coach" players will help. Because you're only ever one step away from:

"Oh where did you go today"
"Red Dragon Isle"
"Oh did you kill Abazuur?"
"Yes"
"But didn't you also kill him yesterday?"
"Yes"

None of the above is doing anything except stating truthfully what your character has done, but in that little exchange alone it trivializes the entire structure of that whole encounter.

As opposed to

"Oh where did you go today?"
"Red Dragon Isle"
"What did you find there?"
"Some large frost giant I have never seen before"
"Was it tough?"
"It was a challenge I had not anticipated, the creatures there seem to struggle for control of the lair the moment one is felled"
"Oh! We should head back to see what new evils might wait for us there".

This simple change in design direction suddenly opens up a lot more options for not just roleplay, but context that makes sense and is a logical thing that would potentially happen in a living world.
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Hazard
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Hazard » Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:43 am

Small changes I suggested years ago could help with this. I think we should move away from having named NPCs in dungeons. With just that little change we can get rid of the 'I killed Paush/Abazur' and instead it becomes .. 'I killed an Ancient Red Dragon/Demon Lord'.

It might sound silly, but I really think small changes along those lines could help encourage more immersive roleplay language and behaviours. I don't mean to put extra work on our volunteer devs.. but at least it is only minor.

There's also a new NPC in the Reaver part of Minmir that says something about .. death not being permanent on the isle. Something that players get punished for saying. If that dialogue option hasn't been removed, I advise removing it. These little things accumulate over years to build a server culture of what is and isn't appropriate.

2d6 emotional damage
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by 2d6 emotional damage » Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:00 am

I don't know if I agree with DMs being more involved or not. It would definitely be nice to see DMs model/encourage behavior they want to see, or create quests that provoke the kind of challenges/speculations they want to see (moral quandaries, encouraging people to work together, etc) but this is also very difficult to do. Generally, I'd like to see DMs providing prompts and things for people to do or contemplate that isn't tower defense or the next world ending cataclysm. There's a lot of cool intrigue baked into the server that could be explored to help make the world feel living, breathing. I also don't really have a problem with DMs piggybacking off of player initiatives to start quests-- I know that tends to raise "favoritism" alarms but ideally that can be rectified by making sure no DM has a favorite faction, but has wide-spread attention where everyone has an equal chance to be recognized.

In regards to Arigard, I circle back to an earlier point which I've been struggling to make.
We are participating in a roleplay server, which means there are some mechanical limitations at bay. Yes, adjusting certain things and semantics might help the 'believability' of the adventurer lifestyle, but ultimately, I believe it is up to you, the player, to "opt-in" to the fantasy. Devs could put in a seemless dungeoning system, but it wouldn't matter because there are still stats, rolls, grinding, and other pretty OOC mechanics going on at play in the world. If you refuse to participate in the make-believe, then the make-believe doesn't work.

So how do you participate in the make-believe? When someone asks you, hey, what did you do today? You don't need to dwell on the largely uninteresting "I killed abazur today" or "I went to dis". You could instead focus on your characters motivations for adventuring, talk about why they went dragon hunting (resources- resources for what? training- training to what end? why are these things important?) We're in a persistent world where characters are always adventurers. What does that mean if you're just joe-shmo the local blacksmith who has never been adventuring before either? What does it mean to be a normal guy who is forever at the mercy of these supremely out of touch economic and martial power houses? Maybe you are an adventurer, how does that tie into your characters religion, their desires? Instead of making your small talk about how you went and exercised by dragon slaying and mountain climbing, you could not dwell on that uninteresting part and focus on what makes it interesting.

When writing drama, your actors dialogue should always be moving them toward their point of desire (long term, short term, immediate, anything) so maybe a way to reconsider this "I killed abazur twenty times" thing is to ask ok, how did killing abazur bring my character closer to their goals? if it didn't, why do it? idk. these are frames of reference that could be used to change the way we think about these smaller interactions and start thinking in a more rp oriented section. Instead of expecting the server to convince you of its probability, just get in there and start speculating from your little observations and make RP out of that. Your whole foundation of RP should, ideally, not only consist of adventuring and killing abby. Surely your character has other things going on that killing abby is at least somewhat related to that you could expand on instead.

It isn't 'lying' to leave out you went and looped RDI for 6hrs. It's just omission of a fairly boring thing you did so you can frame your narrative to what was interesting/unique/compelling about it. Which is 100% valid and fine because that's a choice you are making OOC as the narrator to make for a better story.

Arigard
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Arigard » Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:06 am

2d6 emotional damage wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:00 am
When writing drama, your actors dialogue should always be moving them toward their point of desire (long term, short term, immediate, anything) so maybe a way to reconsider this "I killed abazur twenty times" thing is to ask ok, how did killing abazur bring my character closer to their goals? if it didn't, why do it? idk. these are frames of reference that could be used to change the way we think about these smaller interactions and start thinking in a more rp oriented section. Instead of expecting the server to convince you of its probability, just get in there and start speculating from your little observations and make RP out of that. Your whole foundation of RP should, ideally, not only consist of adventuring and killing abby. Surely your character has other things going on that killing abby is at least somewhat related to that you could expand on instead.
I agree with many of your points, but we also need to keep in mind roleplay doesn't equal novel. There's nothing wrong with having characters that have no aspirations outside of simply "I wish to exist and see where my life takes me". In fact these characters need to exist, or else the entire world is simply a melting pot of protagonists constantly vying for their novel to come to fruition - and that isn't necessarily a good thing.

You can be great at writing stories and terrible at reacting in real time in a role. You might be so wrapped up in the story that's in your head coming into fruition that you cannot bend, or react to things that actually happen dynamically. Likewise, you can be amazing at coming up with interesting dialogue off the cuff, but not be as great at creating traditional plotlines, or stories. Neither of these things are mutually exclusive - and role-play chiefly is about reaction. You're playing a persona and in real time responding to the world you are in.

If you want to simply play a character that hunts trinkets and has no more long term goals than "I want to make money and find interesting trinkets" then, that's ok. Not everyone will enjoy having to come up with a grand narrative and some might for some characters and then with others might want to explore a completely blank canvas, to see where it takes them. That doesn't mean simply because they don't have a wealth of knowledge of lore and DnD history woven into every interaction they are not investing in the fantasy. It just means they're like 99% of actual inhabitants of the world, who are simply getting by day to day.

If you're playing a ranger thats goal is to keep certain parts of the world safe for others for example, or you have a RP background about hunting your favoured enemies etc, it would make total sense why you would be patrolling the same routes frequently and if that's the entirety of your character arc at that point in time, that's ok.

The above is why the systems matter. Because it's very difficult to react to something that happens that is out of the ordinary, or gives a cue for narrative if the same thing continuously happens over and over, that's when the continuity of the world breaks. We already have systems like the trinket systems, language system, crafting system, boss system, shop system etc that push characters to do things in the world. All of these aid with day in/day out RP and give players purpose without having to rely on them fabricating a grand purpose for their characters which might not even exist, if they don't wish to.

If you give someone a pencil, you'll get a drawing. If you want a painted masterpiece, you might need to offer more tools, rather than expecting them to imagine the colours. Arelith has some amazing systems that already help with much of the day to day roles - But that doesn't mean it couldn't provide a few more things to aid with continuity and context to make some of the interaction with the world at large a bit more seamless - or simply tweak a few things so that immersion is upheld.

The recent ship system is a perfect example of this, which is clear the dev team are doing some great work to add depth to things, but it all takes time. I do wish that some of the time investment that has been placed into class reworks and balance changes was perhaps instead focused more on RP tools and systems, but we have to be greatful for the effort and time that is being invested into Arelith, we'll always have our own ideas on what could improve it.
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by 2d6 emotional damage » Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:10 am

Arigard wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:06 am
2d6 emotional damage wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:00 am
....
....

Personally, I don't expect the most stellar mind boggling RP when I log in. Nor am I always (or ever) writing to the maximum capacity of all two of my brain cells. The nature of RP, as you've pointed out, makes it difficult to really hit the 'peak' polish you might get with a novel. This is also why when I talk about writing I compare it to Drama, not to Novel writing. Novel writing is a script and has only one participant. Drama involves actors who are all participating and bouncing off one another- you can get a lot more organic natural improv that reflects the real-time experience. To me, it's that real time back and forth bouncing off one another of "if you said that, then I would say/do this" that constitutes good role play.

That does not require indepth lore knowledge, or a degree in creative writing, or systems. Thats just a minimum of two people coming together riffing off one another to collaboratively tell a story. Which can be as benign as, I like treasure hunting and fishing and still be interesting to interact with. You mistake my big fancy language for wanting mind boggling Lord of the Rings quality, when in reality, my general, basic askance is for people to be interested in interacting with one another in a cooperative manner.

Being a regular guy who likes fishing is still adhering to the Setting. What isn't adhering to the setting is being flippant and dismissive of big things that would be sensible for a normal regular guy to have feelings about. And if you don't have feelings about it, because that isn't your jive as a player, then you just have to not make dismissive flippant comments about something serious. If someone say, died, and you didn't know them, you wouldn't make jokes about how they died to a room full of people who care about that person. It's okay to not care, you just need to be a little mindful. And it's okay to be a run grinder or a guy who patrols the same areas all the time too. The bare standard I consider for RP is a character who takes themselves, what they do, or what's important to them seriously (because if they can't take themself seriously, then I can't either.)

When I say 'setting', I don't mean the source books. 'Setting' means the idea we're writing in a fantasy world where these characters have exhaustion and pain and joy and other bodily responses that are unavoidable and consequential to doing certain things. 'Setting' to me means the very delicate illusion of the probable fictional world we are all part of making through our participation in the role play. When you disrespect the 'setting' you disrespect everyone else's efforts to make it real. that's why I chimp out about how important it is for players to be a little mindful of their conduct. And I specify, conduct. Not quality. Not content. Not what you're writing or how you're writing it Conduct as a participant in the game.

Edit: (old paragraph made tiny but retained for prosperity, new paragraph added to better address sentiments)
The systems are nice and make things easier, but you can also RP on small closed WoW servers that have no systems, or those dark days of forum RP or, god forgive me for this invocation, Tumblr blog rp . Quality varies, obviously, but the essence remains the same, the on the spot speculation of a story told together. The reason I chimp out so much about the importance of player initiative in resolving these issues is because to my experience, there is a lack of respect for one another and the setting that holds everything else back.

I get things can be repetitive and boring and hard to make interesting. That's okay. You can just vibe and live day to day and enjoy casual and light RP (believe it or not, this is my preference). But you don't have to tear other people's stories down or the efforts of everyone else trying to make the world better. This is just some basic, general consideration for the others who are trying to make it more interesting. Instead of being dismissive or flippant or w/e, be curious, be open to experiencing new things or takes and have that back and forth exchange. That's how you make things not boring and repetitive is by engaging with your fellow player to get some freshness into what you're writing about. When you want to RP with people you just make it work and figure it out.
(though I agree some Dev attention to making systems would be nice and would help, my primary concern is player conduct. You can have good systems, but they don't matter if people are going to use them in bad faith)

Arigard
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Arigard » Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:58 am

2d6 emotional damage wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:10 am
Arigard wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:06 am
2d6 emotional damage wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:00 am
....
....
And if you don't have feelings about it, because that isn't your jive as a player, then you just have to not make dismissive flippant comments about something serious. If someone say, died, and you didn't know them, you wouldn't make jokes about how they died to a room full of people who care about that person. It's okay to not care, you just need to be a little mindful.
Again, agree with a lot of what you said in your post, but just playing devils advocate here expecting every character to want to work with yours cooperatively & constructively is I think somewhat unreasonable. Not all characters are going to want to, some with good reason based on racial lore/background/religious reasons. Some are going to be distrustful/abrasive and even rude/dissmissive, maybe even somewhat hostile. I don't think it's really fair to conflate character conduct as being nice with respecting the setting. If it's someone going "LOLOLOL he died why you upset bro he'll be back in a moment" then of course, but if it was a Svirfneblin coming across a room mourning the death of a Drow, I don't see why that character might not utter a "Good riddence in my view.." if they thought they could do so and get away with it and were prepared for the consequences. There's plenty of lore based reasons why a Svirf might be more than happy to see a Drow, even one they didn't know depart.

The issue with the above is not, in my eyes, the saying of such, or the being flippant, but the lack of responsibility for doing so. If you want to play a flippant dick, that's fine, but you need to understand as a player the potential negative reaction it will bring and likely the hostility.
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by FallenDabus » Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:47 am

I do not believe it is really a question of "design or player responsibility". It goes hand in hand, and one without the other will always be stifled.

Arigard's previous Svirfneblin character was the immediate reason why I got hooked on Arelith initially. My first character was a svirfneblin. Andunor was completely new to me, I had barely a point of xp to my name, and everything felt tense and dangerous. Arigard's svirfneblin took mine aside and took her under the wing as the unofficial svirfneblin community momma goose. One who keeps an eye on the vulnerable deep gnomes, and used her hard-earned influence so other Andunor factions turned a blind eye to them (mostly). All while being a fantastic roleplayer to really sell the story moment. Moments like that, and so many more from other terrific players, really set the tone and defined much of my character's story.

Great players will always elevate the server and encourage others to do put a greater effort into it. That however does not change the impact mechanics and systems can have. Imagine trying to run settlements without the settlement system, playing a sailor without the sailing system, a trader without ownable shops, a fisherman without the new fishing mechanics, a craftsman without the crafting system, or a diviner without scrying.

Creating something like this for the role that arcane guilds, druidic groves and clerical temples play within the Forgotten Realms suddenly makes such things possible by players being encouraged to use them to tell stories through those roles. It empowers the great RPers the server has.

Smaller touches like rotating dungeon bosses, or renaming / resizing demons and dragons definitely would help as well. While it does not really empower great rpers to do better, it helps reduce the offending "I killed Paush seven times last week" issue. Certain things like how death will be treated I expect will remain a pet peeve, because its kind of hard to affect that with design without making the design too punishing.

Anyway, with as much effort as the devs put into Arelith it always feels somewhat ungrateful, entitled to ask them to do "more" or focus on a part of design work they might not care as much about. I do think they can affect the tone and atmosphere better than anyone. Far more than DMs trying to enforce tone and atmosphere, or players trying to elevate it, IMO.

Edit: Just to quickly tack on, doing it through design IMO is also one of the least risky ways. Arelith has been very good about it (both in terms of DMs and players), but other NWN servers often had a really bad track record of encouraging / enforcing "higher" roleplay standards. The huge benefit of tackling it primarily through design is that it is far less judgemental of less experienced players or players who want to play a concept that is just a question of personal preference and style. Personally, I think Areliths focus on having the world be pretty hands-off player driven is one of its best qualities.
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Tabby » Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:17 pm

Arigard wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:32 am

"Oh where did you go today?"
"Red Dragon Isle"
"What did you find there?"
"Some large frost giant I have never seen before"
"Was it tough?"
"It was a challenge I had not anticipated, the creatures there seem to struggle for control of the lair the moment one is felled"
"Oh! We should head back to see what new evils might wait for us there".

This simple change in design direction suddenly opens up a lot more options for not just roleplay, but context that makes sense and is a logical thing that would potentially happen in a living world.
Couldnt it kinda neat, if it actually changed..
Like when you meet the "yellow" variants of creatures, that has some random effects on them.

But have a cycle of bosses, when they get killed, a new "not the same" boss arrives?
That will help it abit.. *shrugs* :)

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Misty Scrollsinger - Still searching answers, but is now elsewhere

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Edens_Fall » Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:13 pm

Tabby wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:17 pm
Arigard wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:32 am

"Oh where did you go today?"
"Red Dragon Isle"
"What did you find there?"
"Some large frost giant I have never seen before"
"Was it tough?"
"It was a challenge I had not anticipated, the creatures there seem to struggle for control of the lair the moment one is felled"
"Oh! We should head back to see what new evils might wait for us there".

This simple change in design direction suddenly opens up a lot more options for not just roleplay, but context that makes sense and is a logical thing that would potentially happen in a living world.
Couldnt it kinda neat, if it actually changed..
Like when you meet the "yellow" variants of creatures, that has some random effects on them.

But have a cycle of bosses, when they get killed, a new "not the same" boss arrives?
That will help it abit.. *shrugs* :)
AND just like the yellow variants the bosses could have random stat adjustments to vary thier challenge rating. Making each encounter different fight wise.

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Amateur Hour » Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:52 pm

Tabby wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:17 pm
Arigard wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:32 am

"Oh where did you go today?"
"Red Dragon Isle"
"What did you find there?"
"Some large frost giant I have never seen before"
"Was it tough?"
"It was a challenge I had not anticipated, the creatures there seem to struggle for control of the lair the moment one is felled"
"Oh! We should head back to see what new evils might wait for us there".

This simple change in design direction suddenly opens up a lot more options for not just roleplay, but context that makes sense and is a logical thing that would potentially happen in a living world.
Couldnt it kinda neat, if it actually changed..
Like when you meet the "yellow" variants of creatures, that has some random effects on them.

But have a cycle of bosses, when they get killed, a new "not the same" boss arrives?
That will help it abit.. *shrugs* :)
Frankly, this is how I've typically played them even though the name is static. Why would my characters recognize that a particular dragon is the same dragon as last time and not just "a big and dangerous dragon that will eat me if my friends and I don't kill it first"? I don't even know how they'd learn that Abazzur's name is "Abazzur" unless someone told them.

Rolled: Solveigh Arnimayne, "Anna Locksley"
Shelved: Ninim Elario, Maethiel Tyireale'ala
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by xf1313 » Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:01 am

From my experience, most players do want to engage in rp, but struggle to generate events themselves (me included!) Sitting down and chatting is not everyone’s cup of tea. I need to be creative...maybe my Druid can ask people to find my lost companion someday?

I deleted a few characters, mostly because they really didn’t workout. Their personality, their abilities has failed to create interesting narratives. Really not what I expected when I created those characters. Currently having 2 favorites. Druid is my oldest, and rogue had quite a few legendary moments.

And I’d mention, most good rp do not need a pvp optimum build! Rather, i’d Prefer to have weird stats because that’d be fun, but alas....I have to survive dungeons....and backpack can get heavy with heads....
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by -XXX- » Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:50 pm

I see what many players here describe as the Arelith's stage of postmodernism - there's too many takes on the "right" and "wrong" way to RP, too many opinions and very little that's generally agreed upon. IMO there are two roots to this:

1) Player conduct - IMO the current state of general player conduct isn't really any better or worse than it used to be in the past. What differs atm is that players seem to be much quicker to openly dismiss IC narratives that they don't find immediately appealing.
It's this unhealthy assertion that all you need to do to truly "WIN at Arelith" is to deny your opposition the audience and renown for their characters that they strive for (i.e. "downvote" them with OOC indifference).
That's what turns the desirable "YES, and..." attitude into the detrimental "NO, because..." one.

2) PvE and power creep - lore and setting issues stemming from the reality of characters casually performing heroic deeds of legends on daily basis set aside, the incentives for tackling PvE content solo vastly outweigh any incentives for doing that in a party. Or rather, players are pretty much forced to invent excuses why teaming up and splitting the loot would make more sense than simply taking turns grinding a dungeon at this point. It also means that players never really need to step out of their comfort zone to team up with new characters and there's a missed opportunity for organic storytelling there.


TL;DR: IMO Arelith isn't really in a state of doom and gloom right now, but players could be a little more generous with spotlight and acknowledgment (rather than jealously withholding them), while the PvE content could use some kind of update to both feel less heroic and become more of an appropriate challenge for the current character builds.

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Skane
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Skane » Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:15 pm

If the module itself doesn't respect the integrity of the setting, why would you expect the players to?

We have NPCs who when threatened with death literally scoff and respond they'll just come back.

We *do* regularly kill dragons and epic foes, not with difficulty but with ease, some literally killing them in a single blow. You're expecting players to be disingenuous about their characters abilities to assist the setting when the setting should be what's accurately representing the difficulty. To someone who said higher stats doesn't mean it's easy for you to accomplish, that *can* be true, but when it's done repetitively and swiftly then it sort of does mean it's easy.

If you don't want players to treat dragons and liches like they're blase, don't literally litter the module with them. There is quite literally a level 12 writ in Cordor with a lich, how is that respecting the power and awe such creatures respect.

You don't want players to treat like going to hell is something simple and easy? Then don't have a free teleporter directly to a merchant block with guaranteed protection for shoppers.

I agree atmosphere and tone are a problem with arelith, but I don't think it's the fault of the players; and the people who work to maintain setting integrity with their characters despite this are to be lauded definitely. But I don't think we need to demonize players who are only saying what their characters are literally doing.
Gods can we just remove magic already?

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Morgy » Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:07 pm

Skane wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:15 pm
If the module itself doesn't respect the integrity of the setting, why would you expect the players to?

We have NPCs who when threatened with death literally scoff and respond they'll just come back.

We *do* regularly kill dragons and epic foes, not with difficulty but with ease, some literally killing them in a single blow. You're expecting players to be disingenuous about their characters abilities to assist the setting when the setting should be what's accurately representing the difficulty. To someone who said higher stats doesn't mean it's easy for you to accomplish, that *can* be true, but when it's done repetitively and swiftly then it sort of does mean it's easy.

If you don't want players to treat dragons and liches like they're blase, don't literally litter the module with them. There is quite literally a level 12 writ in Cordor with a lich, how is that respecting the power and awe such creatures respect.

You don't want players to treat like going to hell is something simple and easy? Then don't have a free teleporter directly to a merchant block with guaranteed protection for shoppers.

I agree atmosphere and tone are a problem with arelith, but I don't think it's the fault of the players; and the people who work to maintain setting integrity with their characters despite this are to be lauded definitely. But I don't think we need to demonize players who are only saying what their characters are literally doing.
I think this is all very fair. Sometimes walking into the busier settlements is like passing through a city of super heroes/villains. There are some newer areas that are much tougher than old, but I would take a lot of time to go over all the old dungeons to rebalance them. I’ve always found the most rewarding rp experiences to be had, are ones where your character can show genuine fear or intimidation. That is one of the reasons I enjoy good slave RP, because your PC can find many reasons to be humble/weakened despite the prevalence of powers around them.

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Xerah » Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:00 am

I think we’d have a lot more complaints and it wouldn’t be as popular if Arelith was designed more closer to what it’s trying to represent (ie level limit of 12-15, very limited pve model options etc)
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Skane » Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:09 am

Xerah wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:00 am
I think we’d have a lot more complaints and it wouldn’t be as popular if Arelith was designed more closer to what it’s trying to represent (ie level limit of 12-15, very limited pve model options etc)
I agree, there's no real way to maintain areliths fun mechanics without hurting the thematic of the setting or vice versa. There's things you can do to address the problem but there's no real solution
Gods can we just remove magic already?

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:50 am

I, for one, welcome a world where an ambient orc is a genuine threat.

Then again, I'd also welcome a full-human server, with the strange and exotic - Well. Strange and exotic. Still, community's small, and I comfort myself with the knowledge that how all-encompassing Arelith is means that there's pockets for everyone.

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Skibbles » Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:51 am

Skane basically seems to be saying that WYSIWYG (the ultimate fallback rule on Arelith I think) applies to more than just character appearance and so on.

Makes sense to me when everything is considered. The one thing we can all collectively agree on is what's on the screen and in the log.

It's hard to pretend things are hard when your party has to stay at a running pace just to keep up with a falchion barb/WM one shotting giants while they all scatter from his DC 50 fear rage, or whatever, and the party comes out the other end without a scratch.

It might be considered just as weird and immersion breaking to have one PC in the above group constantly emoting as if the party was in some great struggle or danger despite all the evidence otherwise. That might draw some glances from other characters.

It's also difficult to roleplay a wizard's journey into magic when they went from magic missile to timestop inside of a week.

I'm not sure how this can be fully reconciled. On one hand it gives the setting so much weight to give monsters, and so on, the respect to drive a narrative, but on the other hand the tools/visual cues are not there to give any indication to players that most things are actually hard.

I know what I'd prefer, but is it really fair to request the community engage in a sort of collective delusion, against all the provided evidence? I can't be so sure.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Xerah » Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:10 am

Skibbles wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:51 am
Skane basically seems to be saying that WYSIWYG (the ultimate fallback rule on Arelith I think) applies to more than just character appearance and so on.

Makes sense to me when everything is considered. The one thing we can all collectively agree on is what's on the screen and in the log.

It's hard to pretend things are hard when your party has to stay at a running pace just to keep up with a falchion barb/WM one shotting giants while they all scatter from his DC 50 fear rage, or whatever, and the party comes out the other end without a scratch.

It might be considered just as weird and immersion breaking to have one PC in the above group constantly emoting as if the party was in some great struggle or danger despite all the evidence otherwise. That might draw some glances from other characters.

It's also difficult to roleplay a wizard's journey into magic when they went from magic missile to timestop inside of a week.

I'm not sure how this can be fully reconciled. On one hand it gives the setting so much weight to give monsters, and so on, the respect to drive a narrative, but on the other hand the tools/visual cues are not there to give any indication to players that most things are actually hard.

I know what I'd prefer, but is it really fair to request the community engage in a sort of collective delusion, against all the provided evidence? I can't be so sure.
Yep, totally agreed. I look back at my first character and the fact that I was able to journal their progress in the IC forums:

viewtopic.php?t=11479

And I think it’s unfortunate that I’ll never go that slow again and that the IC forum is shunned on this server. Some of it is because I know the ins and outs and “don’t want to do it again” but a large part is that I have no issue getting to epic levels in a short amount of time (I think I have around 10 epic level characters in my vault) due to extra Exp and writs (and I like those things, don’t get me wrong).

Even still, I like to toss as much suspension to disbelieve as possible, which could be due to being a developer myself, but I just think it works better for story if you take that approach. We know Monsters/NPCs are run by an easily exploitable NWN AI. We know that progression to 30 exists because it’s an always on game. We know that we’re not actually the same level as FR gods. We know we have to give a nod to both the gamify aspect to keep this 20 year old game popular while at realizing that we’re living in a world without permadeath (and so many things that aren’t going to logically make sense).

But let them not make sense.

Let yourself enjoy both aspects of the game and the narrative without having one need to railroad the other.

I really wish I had a better solution.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

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Party in the forest at midnight
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:37 am

All of this stuff seems like thinking too hard about it. Rather than worrying about things "making sense" I'd rather people tell cool stories. I started RPing in a MMO though, so there was always a strong separation between the video game aspect and the RP aspect. I was an edgy teenager then and asked my friend if his character would be doing this IC. He said no, so I put a dress on my necromancer cult character while we did dungeon stuff. Because clearly if his char wouldn't be there, none of this was IC.

Same game taught me that proper grammar and spelling doesn't really make someone a good RPer either. There was one guy who was lowercase and misspelled things frequently, but came up with a lot of wild ideas. My outcast cultist char joined forces with his anarchist. We once attended a casino opening night and threw firebombs everywhere, it was a lot of fun. He did a lot of stuff, he had ideas and went out and did them. In contrast, there were people who could string together perfect sentences, but never said anything worthwhile, they never actually did anything.

To tie this together with the other posts, the story is the important part. If someone is lowercase but tells a good story, they're not lesser than anyone (and I've met RPers who act like being lowercase means your RP is bad). Similarly, a lot of people like RPing crazy high magic. Other people like RPing occult. Or cloak and dagger. Or adventurers. Or any other number of things. I think what's more important is the story people tell than obsessing over trying to get video game mechanics to match a system not intended for a persistent world setting.

I've seen a lot of people grump about wanting things to be "MORE HARDCORE" in a number of different gaming communities, but that stuff isn't fun. It's some weird dick-waving contest people have about how HARDCORE they are with non-fun grind realism elements. And all it does is chase off everyone wanting to play a fun game. And some of those HARDCORE people don't even like playing the content, when you read what they say you realize all they want is to punish everyone else.

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by xanrael » Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:54 am

At least for me as a player I don't think I should be basing my enjoyment on how immersed and engaged the average player is with the world. Rather I should seek to do whatever I can to positively increase the experience of myself and the players I interact with that are willing to engage with me whether as allies, foes, or everything in between.

I do think you can get the mechanics to match the experience by how you play to a certain extent. I'll use the example of PvE difficulty and immersion while leveling up.

Pick areas to adventure that are far above your comfort level and are in the "one mistake or bad luck and you're halfway to TPK" territory. It's not efficient but for me that's given far more joy actually needing to work together intelligently both IC and OOC to tackle a place and you can RP IC the tactics you need to OOC employ. Find like minded people and enjoy it.

Or if that sounds like a slog then don't. You're mostly in-control in how you experience the world.

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Richrd » Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:48 am

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:37 am
I've seen a lot of people grump about wanting things to be "MORE HARDCORE" in a number of different gaming communities, but that stuff isn't fun. It's some weird dick-waving contest people have about how HARDCORE they are with non-fun grind realism elements. And all it does is chase off everyone wanting to play a fun game. And some of those HARDCORE people don't even like playing the content, when you read what they say you realize all they want is to punish everyone else.
I believe it would do the overall situation some good if not the gameplay became more hardcore but instead the setting. As described in my previous post here there's, in my opinion, too many immersion shattering things going on to the point where I just don't feel like I can actually get myself invested into the server's setting as of right now.

To push the basic gameplay into a more "hardcore" or "immersive" route can end up disastrously. That is a path that has to be tread very carefully. For example, I would hate for Arelith to end up like Ravenloft where the leveling-up system is obscure and leaves you completely in the dark, where thirst and hunger mechanics seem to only exist to force you to a grinding halt instead of having any other mechanics be tied into them. City of Rings on the other hand is in my opinion a good way to go about hardcore mechanics such as permadeath and even their hunger and thirst systems scale to a tasteful degree and allow mechanical interactions.

As a side note, I want to just say that it's actually really nice to see a conversation that people can disagree on a lot remain this civil. Makes me actually want to check back to see how this is going and what other points people are bringing up.

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