atmosphere and tone

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Marsi
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Marsi » Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:54 am

Arelith now: "We have painstakingly recreated a medieval city with a sumptious tileset, complete with 100s of elaborately described NPCs"
Arelith players: "Why is this server so unrealistic? How come I don't get -10 chill damage when I walk through rivers? If Arelith has any hope to fix its problems, it needs to start taking cues from these interchangeable permadeath servers with 5/99 players"

Arelith 10+ years ago: "Yes there is a smoking former banite ruin that was destroyed by literal angels one area away from a port town. Yes everything is vanilla NWN tilesets. No I will not elaborate. Go somewhere else if you don't like it"
Arelith players: "Ah the perfect stage for non-stop internecine warfare, drama, absurdly memorable fantasy characters, and fixture statues described as gargoyles that claim to be NPCs in their description"

Why should the great bell of Beaulieu toll when the shadows were neither short nor long?


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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:46 am

Ye old days is such a mixed bag. Inescapable to look at from either a critical or rose-tinted glasses.

I think people asking for a more hardcore setting are missing a bit of the mark. Arelith's setting is more "rational" than it ever has been.

However, fundamentally, it must be recognized that it is very much departed from any traditional D&D parentage because of how we leapfrog from 3 to epics. *That* is a very different change, which I still believe is at the heart of a lot of the issues. That is on an irreversible path however, so we can't belabor this too much.

I just think we should maybe just start thinking about the server in a new way. If the journey to epics is really a "tutorial" mode, level 30s should really be treated less special. Fighting dragons, balors, pit fiends and worse is inherently a part of the setting - it doesn't make it any less intense or serious. That flippancy, I think, is part of our old-Arelith thinking.

Rather than, "it's ridiculous people casually saying they killed dragons yesterday", we should be more so encouraging, "these people are the dragonslaying guild who drag themselves across mountain ranges and don't mess around."

Arelith has gotten higher power, higher fantasy. It's undeniable. You're not here for low-setting gritt anymore. Nor are you here for a meandering classic rags-to-richs, boy-who-would-be-king 3 to 30 arch anymore.

Arelith is a game about epics. Where power imbalances no longer hinge on helping your lowbies grind through Dark Spire circle farms, but instead, on information, numbers, and logistics. That's pretty cool if you ask me - it's an evolution in sophistication.

The game's changed. Embrace it and make it serious in the context of the new era.

Again, I just don't think we're really being inventive or creative enough here. We're not really seeing the server how it should be seen, but trying to drag it back into some mythical past that's no longer really relevant.

You're not going to get 2010s Arelith magic anymore. So start figuring out how to remake Arelith in a better way.
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Dari
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Dari » Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:34 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:46 am

You're not going to get 2010s Arelith magic anymore. So start figuring out how to remake Arelith in a better way.
I Don't think a remake would help. It all depends on the current players / types of people that play nowdays.
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Nurel » Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:06 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:46 am
Arelith has gotten higher power, higher fantasy. It's undeniable. You're not here for low-setting gritt anymore. Nor are you here for a meandering classic rags-to-richs, boy-who-would-be-king 3 to 30 arch anymore.
While this is likely very true in the literal sense, mechanics and the "power creep" should never hinder a player from pursuing any kind of story arc for their character. So what if you play the latest most fashionable pvp cookie cutter? You can still be on your rags to riches arc and RP as a poor orphan struggling to survive and whatnot, even though your character is mechanically superior.

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Straxus » Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:12 pm

I don't see Arelith as a "Grind to Epics" server.
Obviously it can be, if you are with the right group, and they help you the entire way, and that is what you want to play.

I have two characters (based in Cordor) and both a very different in their approach towards other characters.

It took me a long time to get my first character to 19th level, and I wouldn't change that for the world. It helped me get to know the setting better, and figure out where I could, and could not go.

My second character, is now the basically the same level as the first, 20 or 21st... but I played him the right way, I didn't just go grinding the dungeons in order of easiest to hardest... this one takes risks, has seen almost the entire Island, and has seen more of it than my original Character. I started him, as if I had never played on the server before.


I highly enjoy playing either of them, and the two would probably never travel together, (if they weren't both my characters) not because of alignment, but attitude.

I would like to see epic characters willing to retire, become permanent NPCs within the world. Or at least have their deaths or the disappearance have some echo within the environment.

Everybody here uses their time to play here, I know it feels awesome when you get recognized, by DMs, and Players, in someways more rewarding when the players notice you.

I know it would be a lot of work, but I would love to see some expansion to Cordor.

I have some ideas, most of which wouldn't really need much of a change, others, would take more knowledge of the building system, than I have... basically any experience is better than what I know about it.

To me, that is what is missing.

You lose one epic character to make another one.

Where did the last guy go?
I want to know that story!
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Vespidae
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Vespidae » Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:17 am

The debate about whether this is a Dev issue or an Uninvested Player issue dance around one thing that is unavoidable, which is that the system as it stands caters to those uninvested players. It is, to a point, attractive to them. I feel like this will always be a problem to some degree - the larger part of the playerbase will always, it seems, find the path of least resistance. To categorise this as a dev or a player issue is probably missing the larger truth:

- It's a lot easier to point out dev issues than player ones. Dev issues might include difficulty scaling, for instance, or levelling, mechanics of this evil thing or that, and so on. Things that might change the experience if they were slightly different, or a lot different, or the exact opposite etc. Opinions abound on this one, and I've some of my own which I'll touch on below.

- It's harder to point out player issues because they all boil down to 'Uninvestedness', which is a big old miasma that you can't correct with an update. There's some reaction to the notion of 'Be the change you want to see' in this thread and I can see why - it doesn't seem to have much traction a lot of the time. But I can say, as a player whose investedness fluctuates with mood (I suspect I am far from alone here) that my own interest in the general RP will be massively boosted by the presence of excellent roleplayers.

Nevertheless, they are both sets of issues. For me the dev issue that kills the tone is writs - not just because of how quickly they get the player from 3 to 30 (I have such opinions about this but I'll save them) but because of how faceless they are.
In the underdark, it feels natural for the provider of quests to be a grim-faced Duergar bureaucrat who solemnly hands out contracts and payment, because that's the tone of the server.
But in Cordor and the rest of the surface, the writ-givers are also mostly tired-looking clerks who work for a 'registry', which isn't a very epic sounding word. Writ work on the surface feels like getting a job as a pest-killer, which probably doesn't cause the tone-problems regarding the trivialisation of fighting powerful beasts, but it certainly doesn't help. I think it would be improved if the registry was renamed as a Guild or Company and the tired clerks replaced with cheerful paymasters with large piles of gold. Or, if they were replaced with a noticeboard like in the Witcher games, with otherwise similar menus.

I don't know what to suggest for player issues that hasn't been said already. I'd like to see more collaborative RP than competitive (while understanding that competitive RP has its advantages where both sides are willing to take a hit). I have no idea how to encourage that as a player other than trying to be an example.
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Good Character » Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:31 pm

A few things I have found out myself:

1. Having jumped from setting to setting and platform to platform one of the most attractive things to players is that sense of mystery. However, it's inescapable that you'll remember things OOC you've already seen on a previous character, so it's hard to experience and express genuine surprise IC.

2. As many people have pointed out it slanted nature of Arelith's difficulty is profound relative to what is being defeated. When I first ever started Arelith and went through the iron mine near Cordor and saw that dragon skeleton I was amazed. However, having killed countless dragons across my characters it just feels dull.

3. I continue to feel that the swiftness of "3 to 30" or the "roleplay truly begins at 30" is not the true issue. Rather that it's shunned and not embraced by making more dungeons and/or tweaking existing ones so they're meant for parties full of 30s. I continue to admire POTM for two reasons: its consistent setting and its difficult yet reasonable and rewarding dungeons. However, I do not admire how long it takes to feel like you're progressing when it comes to what you've done in roleplay vs. mechanically.

4. As I mentioned, POTM has a great setting and with that great hubs. The issue I find with our current hubs is that they all feel far too similar to one another, so it doesn't encourage diversified roleplay. In my opinion the best hubs are: Cordor (very generalized), Dis, and Shadow Wharftown.

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Hazard » Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:11 pm

Maybe people would take dragons and demonlords and stuff more seriously if there were less builds that could just solo this stuff. The amount of characters I see bragging publically about "killing abby by themselves every morning" or "i just killed paush by myself" is pretty annoying, and TBH every time I see them leave for their grind I hope their character dies or a DM decides to get involved and turn up the difficulty a bit.

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:30 pm

Hazard wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:11 pm
Maybe people would take dragons and demonlords and stuff more seriously if there were less builds that could just solo this stuff. The amount of characters I see bragging publically about "killing abby by themselves every morning" or "i just killed paush by myself" is pretty annoying, and TBH every time I see them leave for their grind I hope their character dies or a DM decides to get involved and turn up the difficulty a bit.
Report things like this to the DM's - while it isn't a rule-breach sort of deal, I have found in my time here that a politely worded message about preserving setting integrity and your sense of immersion generally levies results - and I imagine something like this could easily start a chain of events where the mighty big bads seek retribution. IIRC, Abby bringing an entire rage of dragons to Wharftown pre-Armenius had something to do with some PC figure offending her.
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Hazard » Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:49 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:30 pm
Hazard wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:11 pm
Maybe people would take dragons and demonlords and stuff more seriously if there were less builds that could just solo this stuff. The amount of characters I see bragging publically about "killing abby by themselves every morning" or "i just killed paush by myself" is pretty annoying, and TBH every time I see them leave for their grind I hope their character dies or a DM decides to get involved and turn up the difficulty a bit.
Report things like this to the DM's - while it isn't a rule-breach sort of deal, I have found in my time here that a politely worded message about preserving setting integrity and your sense of immersion generally levies results - and I imagine something like this could easily start a chain of events where the mighty big bads seek retribution. IIRC, Abby bringing an entire rage of dragons to Wharftown pre-Armenius had something to do with some PC figure offending her.
You're right, I should be mentioning these things to DMs, but it just kind of bums me out to write reports as it is, and these little things I'd honestly be writing a report at least every 3 days on average, just guessing. That kind of stuff burns me out and I end up just playing Diablo for couple days to forget about it :P

It would be cool it some of the godmode pve builds got a nerf though, instead of making the NPCs even more bloated with stats. Really don't think we should have anyone who can solo the big bads. It also leads to economic imbalances where certain builds just end up filthy rich because they can grind content that is meant to be group content.

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Amateur Hour » Mon Apr 11, 2022 2:38 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:30 pm
Hazard wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:11 pm
Maybe people would take dragons and demonlords and stuff more seriously if there were less builds that could just solo this stuff. The amount of characters I see bragging publically about "killing abby by themselves every morning" or "i just killed paush by myself" is pretty annoying, and TBH every time I see them leave for their grind I hope their character dies or a DM decides to get involved and turn up the difficulty a bit.
Report things like this to the DM's - while it isn't a rule-breach sort of deal, I have found in my time here that a politely worded message about preserving setting integrity and your sense of immersion generally levies results - and I imagine something like this could easily start a chain of events where the mighty big bads seek retribution. IIRC, Abby bringing an entire rage of dragons to Wharftown pre-Armenius had something to do with some PC figure offending her.
I have very fond memories of a brief DM event where Paush sent a band of demons to Myon for retribution for an Aegis excursion there. Characters can be flippant...but it would be very cool if they could be flippant and then later learn their lesson. Pride is a valid flaw.

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by dallion43 » Mon Apr 11, 2022 3:53 am

Some people don’t have RP experience/setting knowledge/etc to RP something fancy. Especially for beginners it is easier to RP a hardened warrior, experienced mercenary, etc, and not other concepts.

In addition the average joe, like me, finds it difficult to *preserve the setting and vibe* by *glorifying* the Dragons, etc, encounters, after soloing them a few times. The average joe won’t even understand why his *fact statement* seems weird/unpleasant to someone. Nor will he understand why his PC shouldn’t brag about him killing X Y times.

I saw plenty of experienced RPs backing off from RP, or interaction, when seeing the above or similar RP level. That's of course understandable. Everyone plays with, and how, he wants. Just remember that everyone was a beginner in something once and someone more experienced usually helped him to improve by showing an example.

The above isn’t a rant of course, just the very bit of the other side of the coin.

P.C
Mechanically; introducing non-solable content with visit incentive/etc can help bring the opposites of the coin above and everyone in between together. Those with less RP experience can bring mechanical value and those with more RP experience can be the reason why it was interesting/fun this time around just by doing what they usually do.
I can assume that Ships content kinda fills in as an example of the above.

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Skarain » Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:41 am

I dipped my toes to Arelith after a lengthy break. One of the first conversations I had with another PC was about the reason of them to ward in the middle of a city. Their response went along the lines of:

"Just yesterday, I slew a dragon on an isle, walked through hell, and when I returned to Cordor, there was four ancient black dragons fighting a gold one in the outskirts. You never know, so you got to be prepared". Character was decked in adamantium and dragonbone plate by description.

(My character just assumed they were tripping on mushrooms and moved on to other topics.)

I acknowledge this all is part of the server, but it felt extremely... out of place, in the middle of Guldorand. It's like Superman itself was standing in the middle of a medival fantasy town.

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Nurel » Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:47 am

Skarain wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:41 am
I acknowledge this all is part of the server, but it felt extremely... out of place, in the middle of Guldorand. It's like Superman itself was standing in the middle of a medival fantasy town.
How is this out of place? This is Forgotten Realms, a high fantasy setting full of over-the-top heroes who perform exalted deeds like slaying dragons and liches for sport, getting loot and prepping for lengthy PVP battles against their equally extravagant antagonists and their minions.

Luckily, if you wish to play a low-fantasy character, you can. There are systems in place which make playing a not-so-strong character equally enjoyable as playing a superhero cookie cutter mechanics monster.

But please do try to remember this is FR Faerun and we are placed on a remote island filled to brim with monsters and threats. The hack&slash is endless and the RP is sometimes grandiose.

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Skarain » Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:14 am

Just felt out of place as I didn't see any dragons or devas chilling on the roofs. A singular object of high fantasy in a city square that does not directly match with the theme. Guldorand feels more down to earth than many other places, is probaly the reason to my observation.

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Nurel » Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:40 am

Don't wish to derail the thread or bombard you with spoilers but - I suggest you dive into lore and find out what Guldorand actually is and why it was built ;)

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Apr 11, 2022 1:53 pm

Not read all the way through this thread, though I've been keeping an eye on it. I suspect some of what I'm going to say has been echoed by others, and probably in a far better and more succinct manner but here we go anyway:

First off a hard truth.

Arelith has always been bloody awful when it comes to setting and tone.

There. I said it.

If you're looking for a deep, lore heavy server with a very firm grip on genre, atmosphere and tone – you don't want Arelith. It's a sad but true fact. And as I said it's always been the case -in fact if anything I've found we're far, far, far more more strict on these things nowadays.

Back before I joined the server, we had Drow and Kobolds chilling out in Cordor.

Back when I first joined the server, I chilled out with a shifter litch, went to a party in Light Keep (paladin stronghold) where someone summoned a Baalor and named it 'Bob,' and pretty much everyone was ok with this. Was friends with several PCs who played Sigilites of various stripes. Got into a one sided longing romance with a 'Snow Elf.' and other such shenanigans. It was all fun mark you, some of the players are excellent rpers and I had a blast – but it wasn't really what you'd call entirely setting compliant

Nowadays we're much more strict with these things, - for good and for ill. But still the accusation that the setting isn't very tight when it comes to tone, or even strict lore in all its players, is pretty accurate.

Now there are three ways we can enforce or improve what I'll now call 'Setting Compliance' (which for the purposes of this post covers tone, lore, etcetera).

1) Changes to the module. Working to make sure the module reflects what we want to see. E.g. - making dragons rarer, more tough, and so on.
2) Mechanics. Which blends in a bit with the above. So to keep with the example lets say... a change that when your PC dies to a dragon, they're permadead(1).
3) DM enforcement – A team of Dms watching over players, and dealing with those who seem to be making light of the threat and danger of dragons!

Each of these have their own issues.

Option 1 is easiest perhaps, but takes work and ultimately is sometimes easily ignored. It'd be nice if players talked to every npc there was, but they don't, and often NPCs aren't taken into account.

Option 2 is also problematic. Good mechanics can certainly encourage roleplay, no denying, but they aren't a substitute for it and often they have side effects and consequences that spiral out.
We're going to stick with the dragon example for ease.
So lets say we reduce dragons – maybe only having two or three in the entire module. We remove the reagents or reagent requirements (so no more needing dragon hides/dragon blood and so on) and these dragons are much tougher now too – harder to fight and if one kills you, it's permadeath.
That's very nice and all – but that doesn't encourage players to well, deal with them. Beyond bragging rites, what benefit is there to fighting a Dragon now? Why would you risk your PCs existence to face one? And we would like to see people actually face this boss – or it's potentially a lot of work for nothing. There's no point in making a massive epic cool dungeon with an awesome boss at the end if no one runs it.
Well, the obvious option is to put a nice big reward up there. A Hoard worth a million coins. Or maybe keep the reagents needed for some things, so that only the very best Dragon Hunters get that awesome dragon armour, or whatever.
Great- but if the reward is as grand as it should be, then everyone will want it and they'll work out the best ways, not just Icly, but oocly, to defeat it.
In our mind we have this wonderful idea of pcs coming together, deep heartfelt, serious talks over mortality, a scrappy band of desperadoes, throwing all they have in a frenzied attempt to slay the beast!
The reality, I fear, would be more like factions coordinating on Discord for a time and place, hopping on and yelling at each other over voice about the best tactics to use, and making sure they've enough gonne slugs.
Then doing the same for their friends (and why not) And again dragons just becoming that thing that everyone kills. A bit more of a 'yeah Join the Such-And-Such faction, they'll get you your dragon plate no biggie, We do an Abazzur run every Friday' (2)

So lets look at Option 3 – DM Intervention.
DM intervention/oversight is, ultimately, the best way of handling roleplay in my opinion. Mechanics generally do not cover the full nuances of human interaction, and only a human touch can really be a good arbiter of such things ultimately. Not to say that mechanics can't help mark you, but often it's like using a sledgehammer to squash an ant.
DM intervention however, especially in terms of roleplay and setting compliance comes with it's own variety of issues.
The simplest is coverage. The DM team is the biggest its ever been, but do we really want to be spending that manpower on carefully watching for people roleplaying the fear of dragons too lightly? Is that really what our time is best used for? I mean don't get me wrong – we do this to an extent already of course, but the question – vis a vis setting compliance, really comes down to how nitpicky we want to be, and how much time we want to spend on it.
The second problem is a lot more troublesome. As I said, we do already do this to an extent, and we have a variety of tools at our disposal. Bans. MoDs, XP/Level drops, and just a plain ol' talking to, to name just a few. Key to this, also, is the RPB system – an invisible system that rewards good roleplay. One of the few 'positive' things we do to enforce good roleplay and setting compliance.
And if you want to start a long argument up on the forums, I recommend you bring the existence of RPB up.
Because there are people who despise this system. They bring up points such as: DM bias, dm favouritism, that people get missed due to being in odd time zones, that good roleplay is subjective, etcetera.
And you know what? As someone who really loves the RPB system and will fight tooth and nail to keep it – I can't deny that some of the above points have a lot of validity.
That this sort of passion exists for a system that is pretty much purely beneficial to the players, its about just REWARDING good roleplay, and is ultimately invisible – imagine how much hatred and dislike would occur if we really cracked down on setting? People don't like having their roleplay or actions judged, how much is there to gain by say, banning people who run from point to point rather than walk?
I've not even touched on how some players really don't like the idea of NPCs getting into their business. Arelith prides itself on being one of the most player empowering servers out there, we try to be pretty hands off when it comes to players leading their own settlements- I think truthfully if we really wanted to come down hard on tone and setting, it would mean NPCs basically running the show far more. A thing which a lot of people would very much resent, and would take up a lot of DM time.

And throughout all of this we must come back to the big question – What IS our tone and setting? As I said at the start, Arelith has always been bloody awful when it comes to this.

Personally I see this as both blessing and curse. Yes, it's a shame in a way. But it also allows for a wider variety of concepts, and play styles. Want to play the Big Damn Hero who wields the power of demigods at their hands, has killed fifty dragons and laughs in the face of danger! Sure you can do that. Want to play the lowly commoner slave trying to scrape by an existence? You can do that too. The scheming politicking scoundrel? Sure! The pretty bard who just loves to party and chat? Can do!

Now these styles may bash into one another, but honestly I find that it's a matter of a) being tolerant of other people styles and b) looking at what they're doing and leaning into it. If someone is trying to go for a more low fantasy style of rp, then throwing high fantasy stuff in their face is probably jarring, for example.

Ultimately if we want a server which is much tighter on setting and tone – whether it be high or low fantasy, dark or light, or somewhere in-between... that means one way or another having a far, far, far smaller player base, which basically means a lot less people being able to come here and have fun! And personally I'm against this on principle.

So am I saying it's all hopeless?

No... I think it'd be interesting and wise to tighten up our setting in a few areas.
The methods I've explained above (module design, mechanics and DM intervention) are all very valid tools and indeed they're the ones we use, but they also have drawbacks and must be implemented carefully. No single one of them is a 'silver bullet' for fixing the problem.

Ultimately however I think Arelith will always be a bit of a red-hot-mess in some areas. It must be if we're to remain as open and expansive as we are... and as I said, in some ways I don't think that's a bad thing.





(1) To be clear, I don't think this is a very good idea as written and would probably be against implementing it, but I'm using the dragon thing as an example – please run with it.

(2) In our example, one option I've not discussed is just 'removing' dragons entirely. This is partly because such a thing doesn't follow through with the points I'm making – the answer to every setting issue isn't always 'remove it entirely' – But also it brings up its own issues. Say we did decide to make dragons more scary by simply having them 'not exist.' That doesn't just cover monstrous 'dragons' but also Dragon Knight skill, Polymorph spells, Red Dragon Disciples, and so on. This branches out into various mechanical issues, and further more may not even be possible to implement. To use a different example – we could decide we no longer wanted alignment on the server, but removing that, and all the deep mechanics involved in it, would be a nightmare- if it's even possible.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Arienette » Mon Apr 11, 2022 2:28 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 1:53 pm
Not read all the way through this thread, though I've been keeping an eye on it. I suspect some of what I'm going to say has been echoed by others, and probably in a far better and more succinct manner but here we go anyway:

First off a hard truth.

Arelith has always been bloody awful when it comes to setting and tone.

There. I said it.

If you're looking for a deep, lore heavy server with a very firm grip on genre, atmosphere and tone – you don't want Arelith. It's a sad but true fact. And as I said it's always been the case -in fact if anything I've found we're far, far, far more more strict on these things nowadays.

Back before I joined the server, we had Drow and Kobolds chilling out in Cordor.

Back when I first joined the server, I chilled out with a shifter litch, went to a party in Light Keep (paladin stronghold) where someone summoned a Baalor and named it 'Bob,' and pretty much everyone was ok with this. Was friends with several PCs who played Sigilites of various stripes. Got into a one sided longing romance with a 'Snow Elf.' and other such shenanigans. It was all fun mark you, some of the players are excellent rpers and I had a blast – but it wasn't really what you'd call entirely setting compliant

Nowadays we're much more strict with these things, - for good and for ill. But still the accusation that the setting isn't very tight when it comes to tone, or even strict lore in all its players, is pretty accurate.

Now there are three ways we can enforce or improve what I'll now call 'Setting Compliance' (which for the purposes of this post covers tone, lore, etcetera).

1) Changes to the module. Working to make sure the module reflects what we want to see. E.g. - making dragons rarer, more tough, and so on.
2) Mechanics. Which blends in a bit with the above. So to keep with the example lets say... a change that when your PC dies to a dragon, they're permadead(1).
3) DM enforcement – A team of Dms watching over players, and dealing with those who seem to be making light of the threat and danger of dragons!

Each of these have their own issues.

Option 1 is easiest perhaps, but takes work and ultimately is sometimes easily ignored. It'd be nice if players talked to every npc there was, but they don't, and often NPCs aren't taken into account.

Option 2 is also problematic. Good mechanics can certainly encourage roleplay, no denying, but they aren't a substitute for it and often they have side effects and consequences that spiral out.
We're going to stick with the dragon example for ease.
So lets say we reduce dragons – maybe only having two or three in the entire module. We remove the reagents or reagent requirements (so no more needing dragon hides/dragon blood and so on) and these dragons are much tougher now too – harder to fight and if one kills you, it's permadeath.
That's very nice and all – but that doesn't encourage players to well, deal with them. Beyond bragging rites, what benefit is there to fighting a Dragon now? Why would you risk your PCs existence to face one? And we would like to see people actually face this boss – or it's potentially a lot of work for nothing. There's no point in making a massive epic cool dungeon with an awesome boss at the end if no one runs it.
Well, the obvious option is to put a nice big reward up there. A Hoard worth a million coins. Or maybe keep the reagents needed for some things, so that only the very best Dragon Hunters get that awesome dragon armour, or whatever.
Great- but if the reward is as grand as it should be, then everyone will want it and they'll work out the best ways, not just Icly, but oocly, to defeat it.
In our mind we have this wonderful idea of pcs coming together, deep heartfelt, serious talks over mortality, a scrappy band of desperadoes, throwing all they have in a frenzied attempt to slay the beast!
The reality, I fear, would be more like factions coordinating on Discord for a time and place, hopping on and yelling at each other over voice about the best tactics to use, and making sure they've enough gonne slugs.
Then doing the same for their friends (and why not) And again dragons just becoming that thing that everyone kills. A bit more of a 'yeah Join the Such-And-Such faction, they'll get you your dragon plate no biggie, We do an Abazzur run every Friday' (2)

So lets look at Option 3 – DM Intervention.
DM intervention/oversight is, ultimately, the best way of handling roleplay in my opinion. Mechanics generally do not cover the full nuances of human interaction, and only a human touch can really be a good arbiter of such things ultimately. Not to say that mechanics can't help mark you, but often it's like using a sledgehammer to squash an ant.
DM intervention however, especially in terms of roleplay and setting compliance comes with it's own variety of issues.
The simplest is coverage. The DM team is the biggest its ever been, but do we really want to be spending that manpower on carefully watching for people roleplaying the fear of dragons too lightly? Is that really what our time is best used for? I mean don't get me wrong – we do this to an extent already of course, but the question – vis a vis setting compliance, really comes down to how nitpicky we want to be, and how much time we want to spend on it.
The second problem is a lot more troublesome. As I said, we do already do this to an extent, and we have a variety of tools at our disposal. Bans. MoDs, XP/Level drops, and just a plain ol' talking to, to name just a few. Key to this, also, is the RPB system – an invisible system that rewards good roleplay. One of the few 'positive' things we do to enforce good roleplay and setting compliance.
And if you want to start a long argument up on the forums, I recommend you bring the existence of RPB up.
Because there are people who despise this system. They bring up points such as: DM bias, dm favouritism, that people get missed due to being in odd time zones, that good roleplay is subjective, etcetera.
And you know what? As someone who really loves the RPB system and will fight tooth and nail to keep it – I can't deny that some of the above points have a lot of validity.
That this sort of passion exists for a system that is pretty much purely beneficial to the players, its about just REWARDING good roleplay, and is ultimately invisible – imagine how much hatred and dislike would occur if we really cracked down on setting? People don't like having their roleplay or actions judged, how much is there to gain by say, banning people who run from point to point rather than walk?
I've not even touched on how some players really don't like the idea of NPCs getting into their business. Arelith prides itself on being one of the most player empowering servers out there, we try to be pretty hands off when it comes to players leading their own settlements- I think truthfully if we really wanted to come down hard on tone and setting, it would mean NPCs basically running the show far more. A thing which a lot of people would very much resent, and would take up a lot of DM time.

And throughout all of this we must come back to the big question – What IS our tone and setting? As I said at the start, Arelith has always been bloody awful when it comes to this.

Personally I see this as both blessing and curse. Yes, it's a shame in a way. But it also allows for a wider variety of concepts, and play styles. Want to play the Big Damn Hero who wields the power of demigods at their hands, has killed fifty dragons and laughs in the face of danger! Sure you can do that. Want to play the lowly commoner slave trying to scrape by an existence? You can do that too. The scheming politicking scoundrel? Sure! The pretty bard who just loves to party and chat? Can do!

Now these styles may bash into one another, but honestly I find that it's a matter of a) being tolerant of other people styles and b) looking at what they're doing and leaning into it. If someone is trying to go for a more low fantasy style of rp, then throwing high fantasy stuff in their face is probably jarring, for example.

Ultimately if we want a server which is much tighter on setting and tone – whether it be high or low fantasy, dark or light, or somewhere in-between... that means one way or another having a far, far, far smaller player base, which basically means a lot less people being able to come here and have fun! And personally I'm against this on principle.

So am I saying it's all hopeless?

No... I think it'd be interesting and wise to tighten up our setting in a few areas.
The methods I've explained above (module design, mechanics and DM intervention) are all very valid tools and indeed they're the ones we use, but they also have drawbacks and must be implemented carefully. No single one of them is a 'silver bullet' for fixing the problem.

Ultimately however I think Arelith will always be a bit of a red-hot-mess in some areas. It must be if we're to remain as open and expansive as we are... and as I said, in some ways I don't think that's a bad thing.





(1) To be clear, I don't think this is a very good idea as written and would probably be against implementing it, but I'm using the dragon thing as an example – please run with it.

(2) In our example, one option I've not discussed is just 'removing' dragons entirely. This is partly because such a thing doesn't follow through with the points I'm making – the answer to every setting issue isn't always 'remove it entirely' – But also it brings up its own issues. Say we did decide to make dragons more scary by simply having them 'not exist.' That doesn't just cover monstrous 'dragons' but also Dragon Knight skill, Polymorph spells, Red Dragon Disciples, and so on. This branches out into various mechanical issues, and further more may not even be possible to implement. To use a different example – we could decide we no longer wanted alignment on the server, but removing that, and all the deep mechanics involved in it, would be a nightmare- if it's even possible.
I think the best idea is #1- To make some of the epic content harder.

For example, RDI:

In the current “Abazur Palladium” zone, replace Abazur with a super hard Fire Giant Boss. Abazur’s Bodyguard, if you will. The guy who captains the mobs on the island.

Leave the rune chest in that room: leave the exit out to the portal. Add an additional, optional zone attached where Abazur is. Make Abazur WAY harder. I recently saw a Spellsword kill Abazur in like 2 rounds while the rest of us were still fighting the shamans. So way harder.

Move the current ore node from the Paladium to this new dragon room.

Something similar could be done with the Styx dragon and the white dragon any other boss areas that are “too easy”.

Just spitballing ideas: I’m not a developer but this SEEMS like a “low effort high return” solution.

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Skane
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Skane » Mon Apr 11, 2022 2:34 pm

I feel like alot of responses in this thread are pointing towards players as the problem again, citing them talking about how they 'just killed some dragons' this morning as a reason for the bad atmosphere and tone.

Your problem here is with the server itself; not the players doing this, the players in this regard are just reacting to the areas they go to, the materials they use, the DM events they witness.

It isn't the player's fault that dungeons are made a certain way, or armor requires certain materials, or that hell and the abyss are not just dungeons but inhabitable areas that can be visited as easily as visiting Bendir.

You can't both have meaningful interaction with the world and ignore the world; WYISWYG can't just apply some of the time.
Gods can we just remove magic already?

Xerah
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Xerah » Mon Apr 11, 2022 2:53 pm

I hate this excuse. That makes players sound like robots who can't even fathom how the game works.

If the world is going to let the bad guys respawn, then maybe the players don't need to minimize that. Suspension of disbelief would go a long way.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

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Skane
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Skane » Mon Apr 11, 2022 2:55 pm

Xerah wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 2:53 pm
I hate this excuse. That makes players sound like robots who can't even fathom how the game works.

If the world is going to let the bad guys respawn, then maybe the players don't need to minimize that. Suspension of disbelief would go a long way.
So what is your proposed solution; how does one minimize the fact you do infact, farm dragons etc daily for the required materials to make your items. I for one am against the idea of simply pretending a character.. doesn't do it?
Gods can we just remove magic already?

Drowboy
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Drowboy » Mon Apr 11, 2022 3:02 pm

There's suspension of disbelief and there's playing a different game mechanically than you're playing in-story, though.

If a character sees a bunch of dragons (and the ones in the above example are DM-spawned, since player's can't summon black dragons) and responds to it by saying "you know what? this is a hell world and anything can happen" and warding themselves just in case- How is that their fault? How is that something to criticize on the forum?

If a character is described as wearing a suit of armor made of dragon parts and adamantine, well
Image
Yeah, they just might be.

Should we suspension of disbelief away anything we don't like, or doesn't fit with our own notion of how the forgotten realms works? It's high fantasy. One of the highest fantasy settings out there, frankly. The god of death got replaced by a human twice in easily living memory.

What's this person from the above example supposed to do? Ignore every bit of the world as it is? Hell is an area you can literally live in. There's shops. Some quite convenient quarters. A bar. This is a fact.

What are they supposed to do? "Yeah, I need some armor made, but I can't say out of what because it breaks forum-decided kayfabe."

Reacting to the world realistically is to be applauded, no?

We can downplay it, sure, but at a certain point-
>I will simply pretend I have not fought [mid to end tier enemies], erasing my achievements
>I will simply pretend the Dissian Concourse does not exist
>I will simply pretend that a DM did not drop 4 dragons on a starter city
>I will simply pretend the crafting materials I use are not that

Sure, there's a reasonable line, but the theme is this thread is so far into "Everyone I encounter is doing something wrong except me" that the vibe could be cut with a knife. Worry about yourself. Improve your own RP, and if it's as good as you think it is, people will start to replicate it.

The number one way I've found over the last 15 years to get dissatisfied with an NWN server, or an MMO rp community, or forum rp, or anything (barring rpghorrorstory level stuff) is to get too concerned looking over everyone else's shoulder and going "oh, they're doing it wrong."
Archnon wrote: I like the idea of slaves and slavery.

Xerah
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Xerah » Mon Apr 11, 2022 3:03 pm

You don't even need to bring it up.

Just like you don't bring up countless of the OOC/mechanics based things that need to exist so that a PW can function.

No one talks about how small the zones are, realistically.
No one talks about how many NPCs are in Cordor and how that doesn't make a full population for a city.
People don't talk about death casually (they shouldn't) because the server is not perma-death.
People don't talk about how you can't permanently put someone in jail.
People don't talk about how assassins used to be able to break PVP rules.
People don't talk about how the death of a leader, in a world where PCs comes back, causes an election.
There are a countless number of these things.

This, very clearly, falls into that. Because, a PW isn't going to work if monsters never respawn.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

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Hazard
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Hazard » Mon Apr 11, 2022 3:07 pm

Xerah wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 3:03 pm
You don't even need to bring it up.

Just like you don't bring up countless of the OOC/mechanics based things that need to exist so that a PW can function.

No one talks about how small the zones are, realistically.
No one talks about how many NPCs are in Cordor and how that doesn't make a full population for a city.
People don't talk about death casually (they shouldn't) because the server is not perma-death.
People don't talk about how you can't permanently put someone in jail.
People don't talk about how assassins used to be able to break PVP rules.
People don't talk about how the death of a leader, in a world where PCs comes back, causes an election.
There are a countless number of these things.

This, very clearly, falls into that. Because, a PW isn't going to work if monsters never respawn.
I know they're rule breaks, and poor form, but people actually do talk about all those things. A lot. I think that's the issue.
They 'shouldn't' be brining up any of those things, you're right. But they do.

Sure, report it. That's a lot of reports though.

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Skane
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Re: atmosphere and tone

Post by Skane » Mon Apr 11, 2022 3:08 pm

Xerah wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 3:03 pm
You don't even need to bring it up.

Just like you don't bring up countless of the OOC/mechanics based things that need to exist so that a PW can function.

No one talks about how small the zones are, realistically.
No one talks about how many NPCs are in Cordor and how that doesn't make a full population for a city.
People don't talk about death casually (they shouldn't) because the server is not perma-death.
People don't talk about how you can't permanently put someone in jail.
People don't talk about how assassins used to be able to break PVP rules.
People don't talk about how the death of a leader, in a world where PCs comes back, causes an election.
There are a countless number of these things.

This, very clearly, falls into that. Because, a PW isn't going to work if monsters never respawn.
Yes but when someone speaks to how they kill goblins daily; no one bats an eye, it's common and accepted. Even though realistically they would be extinct by now, they are suspending their disbelief, by believing him that yes; there are enough goblins on the isle he can reasonably fight them every day.

It's the same reasoning with dragons or whatever really; if it's a mechanical enemy on the isle, that they repeatedly fight, (personally I would prefer bosses escape on death because even I find that hard to suspend my disbelief for) they fight them every day, you just have to suspend your disbelief that's impossible.
Gods can we just remove magic already?

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