Warding a public place?

[Hazard]

It isn't about not talking about 'top-secret' stuff in public. It's about factions spying on settlements to prepare raids, which happen nearly daily.

No one has to say anything sensitive or top-secret for it to be useful for a group looking for PvP. You just learn that someone is off by themselves, or will be soon, or the city is not very guarded so you can slip in and get that guy you always wanted to get, or lots of people are present and warded so you should hit another target, etc, etc.. There's an infinite amount of valuable information you can get from scrying into public areas that isn't "top secret say it privately" stuff.

As long as PvP is so common I think people are going to keep warding these areas, because it's a legitimate security concern for a settlement, and apart from it causing some lag for some people and the noise being annoying, I'd say it's being used exactly as it's supposed to. Powerful mages are doing their settlement a service by protecting large areas from magical spying by enemies. Isn't that what is supposed to happen in a forgotten realms setting?

Maybe the problem isn't people warding. Maybe we just need to tone down the flashy effect and volume of it.

No. I don't have a single character capable of warding or scrying.

[DM Monkey]

I consider this very poor form. Wards should not be placed over source portals unless there's an immediate (TEMPORARY) reason to do so.

Situation a) You're in the middle of being hunted down in the wilderness by mages who are known to use the portal system, so you drop a ward to avoid them catching you. That's not bad, there's a reason for doing it, it's a fleeting situation.

Situation b) You put a ward down over a portal in the Hub just in case someone, somewhere, is going to look at you, or maybe someone else. The incredible amount of frustration that you cause other players who are now unable to use that portal is not worth the marginal benefit, if any, from being scry-proof in the middle of a busy and heavily guarded location. This is bad.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I think some of the -spells need to be reworked. -Ward and -scry are two of them. They were made when,

- arelith was smaller
- epic casters were rarer due to slower levelling
- mechanical knowledge wasn't widespread (or paramount)
- abjuration/divination feat trees were super less rewarding

-ward and -scry require too little investment for the opportunity cost they provide. I think this high-end magic should be rarer for the sake of the server. There was talk of making them actual selectable feats, and I think that should be revisited (so 3 spell focuses + 1 feat).

Or I'd make them wizard (non-wild mage) exclusive.

Or something else to dial back their prevalence.

Because you cannot make "poor form" arguments really, as a source of change. You either need the stick (mechanical change) or the stick (ruling). Sticks are better here.

[Skibbles]

In the past, if certain skills were high enough, you could be alerted when you were being scryed on, but again, I don't know if thats still a thing or not.

As far as I know the only way to know you're being scryed is to have epic spell focus: divination. There may be a second way, buried deep in the update thread archive, but I can't remember. Pretty sure ESF is the only way and it is not FOIG.

As far as the topic goes:

I really don't like to see powerful 'epic' magic flung around like this, as it cheapens the entire idea of magic, but it seems the ward/scry dynamic is quickly reaching a sort of critical mass.

I swear that damn woooom-wooooom is in almost every area I go. It's so grating.

There's always been conflict between UD and Surface, for many a good reason, but it seems like the fun parts have boiled off and now all that remains is this need to stay on top by any means necessary. At least that's how I understand this started but it's really hard to know the truth of it.

There's no doubting the power of scrying though, as only one poorly timed phrase needs to be heard to form the cassus belli of total character destruction if such players lack the required faculties to treat any kind of conflict with anything but gratuitous murder. Players are also right to fear it.

Maybe this (both scry and ward) is just one of those 'nice things' we shouldn't have anymore. Now that I'm saying this I may even long for the day when conflicts are not started at incredible and invisible distance - when the humanity of other players is also conveniently at its most minimal.

[Skibbles]

Also it should be mentioned that the ward discussed, and pictured, is not the teleport blocking ward. That doesn't have a visual effect and has no placement.

These ones are completely harmless unless the caster in question is hostile to the potential victim.

Edit to add quick details for anyone that hadn't regularly used these:

-ward (makes the green scry killing hum beacon, and a check vs paralysis on a hostile entity entering it)

-ward teleport (removes the [teleport] tag from the area for a limited duration and nothing else - there is no visual cue except to enter the area and see the teleport tag is gone, or be in the area at the time and see a note of its removal in the combat log)

[Hazard]

If scrying was removed all-together for everyone, I wouldn't miss it.
I think it would still be nice to have locations like the [redacted] where you can look into other places like [redacted].
Those actually involve going to a place, and it's really cool.

[Archnon]

I consider this very poor form. Wards should not be placed over source portals unless there's an immediate (TEMPORARY) reason to do so.

Situation a) You're in the middle of being hunted down in the wilderness by mages who are known to use the portal system, so you drop a ward to avoid them catching you. That's not bad, there's a reason for doing it, it's a fleeting situation.

Situation b) You put a ward down over a portal in the Hub just in case someone, somewhere, is going to look at you, or maybe someone else. The incredible amount of frustration that you cause other players who are now unable to use that portal is not worth the marginal benefit, if any, from being scry-proof in the middle of a busy and heavily guarded location. This is bad.

Just to add to this, from an immersion standpoint, clogging up the hub portal cannot sit well with the npc merchants in the hub. They want smooth traffic in and out. I'm also not sure they would approve of a magical trap waiting to be sprung in their trade hall. There are plenty of other places to ward.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

There's no doubting the power of scrying though, as only one poorly timed phrase needs to be heard to form the cassus belli of total character destruction if such players lack the required faculties to treat any kind of conflict with anything but gratuitous murder. Players are also right to fear it.

Maybe this (both scry and ward) is just one of those 'nice things' we shouldn't have anymore. Now that I'm saying this I may even long for the day when conflicts are not started at incredible and invisible distance - when the humanity of other players is also conveniently at its most minimal.

Good post.

[Eira]

To be clear, when raids are mentioned, does this mean people were doing unscheduled attacks on the hub due to it being unwarded? Since a proper settlement raid needs notice well in advance.

Or is this individuals attacking other individuals in hub? Is the hub a battleground? Are these people getting reported in this case as would be appropriate under the rules?

What type of situations, precisely, does the hub ward prevent that couldn't also happen when the scry target is literally anywhere else?

Or if you try to scry someone in UD and you can't, and the scrying PC is aware of the constant hub ward from whatever sources, wouldn't that also be a logical assumption that the PC is in hub?

I am seeing far more vitriol from those affected in gameplay about it than actual logical benefits, though perhaps this is a matter of volume of protests.

[Tyrantos]

I would personally like it if scry was made more inline with how it is in the pen and paper version, but I realise this might not be an option.

[-XXX-]

Whining about hide/ms is not an appropriate response to people spamming caltrops in public areas.
Personal grievances with individual mechanics are hardly a license for detrimental player conduct.

We even got a DM response regarding wards in public spaces, what more is to say?

[MissEvelyn]

Instead of removing nice things, can we have the world adapt to the situations?

Scrying is now a widespread problem. Okay, when unclean water was an issue government leaders could invest in better wells.

So, have settlement leaders be able to invest in permanent scrying wards. With each tier of upgrade giving a percentage chance to block a scrying attempt in public locations of the respective settlement. Bonus points if the final upgrade alerts the guard when an exile's scry gets blocked.

[MRFTW]

I've done it before (in the hub) when playing as a turncoat surfacer.

My IC guide told me it was akin to a secret handshake, which I found incredibly charming on an OOC level. That behaviour in and of itself is literally "I'm protecting you at my own expense", or "I'm looking out for the city".

I don't like the thought that it causes other people grief, though.

[Anime Sword Fighter]

This would take a lot of work on the part of the devs/whoever maybe (??) But just identify those major public portals that 1) NPCs would probably take issue with someone warding (Hub), or 2) are "essential" to the RPed portal network and prevent them from being Warded. Allow all the others to stay Warded? Just spitting thoughts

[Royal Blood]

To be clear, when raids are mentioned, does this mean people were doing unscheduled attacks on the hub due to it being unwarded? Since a proper settlement raid needs notice well in advance.

Or is this individuals attacking other individuals in hub? Is the hub a battleground? Are these people getting reported in this case as would be appropriate under the rules?

What type of situations, precisely, does the hub ward prevent that couldn't also happen when the scry target is literally anywhere else?

Or if you try to scry someone in UD and you can't, and the scrying PC is aware of the constant hub ward from whatever sources, wouldn't that also be a logical assumption that the PC is in hub?

I am seeing far more vitriol from those affected in gameplay about it than actual logical benefits, though perhaps this is a matter of volume of protests.

Settlement raids don't need notification if you're below a certain player number. So the super elite meta is to have enough friends below that cap and obliterate everyone in the area and surrounding areas if they interact sideways to you. Setting, narrative, be damned.

In my experience these are fairly inconsistent... But they happen. The grey line in the rules is always pushed to extremes.

What that has to do with scrying is kinda what skibbles mentioned. Just an everpresent need to maintain an edge. Though I don't disagree IC wise with perpetually warding the hub from scrying. If Scrying is so common then it would make sense wards against it are common. That's why I made the suggestion I did on page 1 of the thread.

[Kuma]

Situation b) You put a ward down over a portal in the Hub just in case someone, somewhere, is going to look at you, or maybe someone else. The incredible amount of frustration that you cause other players who are now unable to use that portal is not worth the marginal benefit, if any, from being scry-proof in the middle of a busy and heavily guarded location. This is bad.

to be fair they can still use the portal

it's just gaudy and dumb

[Tabby]

Instead of removing nice things, can we have the world adapt to the situations?

Scrying is now a widespread problem. Okay, when unclean water was an issue government leaders could invest in better wells.

So, have settlement leaders be able to invest in permanent scrying wards. With each tier of upgrade giving a percentage chance to block a scrying attempt in public locations of the respective settlement. Bonus points if the final upgrade alerts the guard when an exile's scry gets blocked.

This is a good solution.. i agree on this part.

Secondly... allow your actions to be seen, allow your thief to be seen pick pocketing, allow your conversation to be at risk at being heard..
Seriously, its should ADD to the story on both side, and play with it as ADULT. The one doing "secret things not to be seen" and the one "scrying and finds out" should ALWAYS play in the best manner possible. Be adults.

Reading all this outrage about removed ward and scry is just... sad

Peehaps make an alternative -ward scry that is personal instead.. no visuals, only personal barrier to scry?

[Ithalan]

Wanted to address these two misconceptions since I didn't see anyone else doing so yet.

Not true. -ward is buggy. The visual will permanently stay if you leave the zone, resting will not remove it even if you return to the zone. The visual also doesn't expire, even though I'm pretty sure the effect expires (might need to test with scriers sometime, there were a few bugs hitting warding a while back and we might have been mistaken). So you might see a ward on the ground, and it's very possible it isn't actively doing anything. Which is why you might see more than one. The only way to get rid of them is let the area reinitialize, which means areas that are always populated won't have time to reinitialize.

The visual is not permanent. It's true that if you switch server/log out, the ward is no longer tied to you, so it remains even if you rest, but I've confirmed firsthand that it still vanishes when the duration expires even in that case. The duration is just very long (5 RL hours at caster level 30).

If somebody is being obnoxious and stacking a lot of different ward effects in one place, that seems like a thing that should be hit with Rule 1 as it is not Being Nice.

I consider this very poor form. Wards should not be placed over source portals unless there's an immediate (TEMPORARY) reason to do so.

Situation a) You're in the middle of being hunted down in the wilderness by mages who are known to use the portal system, so you drop a ward to avoid them catching you. That's not bad, there's a reason for doing it, it's a fleeting situation.

Situation b) You put a ward down over a portal in the Hub just in case someone, somewhere, is going to look at you, or maybe someone else. The incredible amount of frustration that you cause other players who are now unable to use that portal is not worth the marginal benefit, if any, from being scry-proof in the middle of a busy and heavily guarded location. This is bad.

There are two different types of wards. Scrying Wards (That also function as combat wards affecting any hostile creature stepping on it), and Teleport Wards (Which can only be put down by ESF: Abjuration casters, not warlocks). I've only ever once seen someone put a Teleport Ward down in the hub, several months ago, so that's not really a problem. Scrying wards don't interfere with teleportation in any way at all, even when placed right on top of the portal. They are entirely click-through.

Overall, I wouldn't cry if the wards lost their sound effects.

[Edens_Fall]

As having had the pleasure of being hunted by kill teams in the past via scry, I'll admit my perspective can be a bit jaded to the system as a whole.

However from an IG view, if the citizens of a city desire, and take the effort, to ward certain areas from magical divination then I personally see no issue. It's a legitimate strategy any settlement can undertake to protect thier people. Even taking into account the Hub being a "open trade zone" I seriously doubt the Hub Master would be againist an added layer of protection for the customers visiting the shops.

I like to think of it as Anunor's identity protection service offered for free to the merchants and travelers of the Hub. If folks want to spy, then they should do it the old fashioned way. Disguise, walk down ,and RP with all the risk that carries rather then casting a spell behind some some safe and secure door.

[Aradin]

I don't mind that wards *exist* in public places, I just occasionally get annoyed because they exist very brightly and loudly, particularly when stacked. Turn down the vfx and sfx on them and I'd be a happy camper.

[Wings of Peace]

I don't really understand the claims that the wards are obnoxious, especially considering how common scry+die tactics are on this server. The hub is already an unceasing wave of posts at busy hours and everyone walks around warded if they want to so it's not really much of an eyesore or an exacerbator of the overall hecticness of the area. If scrying wasn't the premier way for factions to set up ganks I'd be more sympathetic to it being a 'it still looks nicer gone' issue but as long as the server permits such tactics I think it makes total sense from a practical perspective since if someone wants to survey a heavy traffic area it forces them to actually scout it. It's not really about facilitating secret conversations at all so much as addressing the pvp environment that exists.

[Arienette]

Its sort of disheartening to see so many people saying things like "perhaps its time to get rid of scrying". It serves a critical purpose in Arelith conflict. While it can be over-used, I think finding some ways to curtail over-use is much better direction than simply eliminating it.

Due to the very nature of the game, it is INCREDIBLY easy for a determined character with a grudge to run roughshod over those he has a conflict with. Invisibility, sneaking, teleporting, logging off... there are so many ways for an antagonistic character to essentially be immune to most repercussions when engaged in a grudge, and scrying is one of the only effective ways for the target of that grudge to meaningfully interact.

Take the following example based on my own experiences:

- Antagonist, for whatever IC/RP reasons, find himself at odds with Settlement.

- Repeatedly every day for several days or even weeks, strike out at Settlement in some way; bashing or stealing fixtures, leaving threatening notes on boards, attacking citizens and visitors.

- After each such action, the Antagonist character retreats to parts unknown

- Settlement leaders and guards discuss the problem, spread the word, try to stay on alert for Antagonist

- Maybe even almost catch him in the act, but escaping is usually very easy to do due to basic game mechanics

- Settlement guards and their allies search all over the place for Antagonist, but he is nowhere to be found!

At some point in an exchange like this, scrying for the Antagonist becomes the only good option. Its one of the few ways a determined antagonist can be tracked down; either by bee-lining to him after scrying, or by scrying him a few times and getting an idea where he spends his time in the rare event he is not attacking the Settlement.

I usually play Surface Good characters and often play as a Settlement Guard or similar. But I HAVE played antagonistic characters and it is trivially easy to run roughshod over most groups in the above manner, unless scrying is involved. Every time in these situations (sans being scried) I have had to eventually sort of "give up" and let the Other Side win or get one over on me in the spirit of cooperative storytelling and my own sense of fairness. Because with even a moderate amount of effort, I could have terrorized my targets in perpetuity; even as one against many.

[-XXX-]

Its sort of disheartening to see so many people saying things like...

Sure seems like a loud minority to me.

Scrying provides a vital disruptive element to what would have otherwise been a 100% tight game. That's pretty much how Arelith operates - many mechanics are in place just so that characters can't be 100% safe.

[AstralUniverse]

Scry is just annoying. When I have a scrier on my side I always feel like the plot could be much richer without this tool, and when I have a scrier against me it usually results in me being ganked in the moment I drop my guards and RP without buffs up. So I personally definitely sit in the camp that says scry is an unnecessary double-edged sword we can do well without, and have done well before it. That's my two scents about scry.

About -ward.... well.. just lets make it a rule or an enforced automated mechanic that we cant/dont -ward high traffic screens with portals. People shouldnt be talking about sensitive information on the main road around a portal anyway because it's silly and should be avoided anyway.

The one problem that still remains is if people use it in such screens for pvp purpose (the area CC), then rest in another screen afterwards and the ward glitches until reset.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

It seems like in this case it's a few people stacking them for memes because warlocks get special vfx, which makes this uniquely an Andunor problem. Maybe just deal with the individuals doing that.