A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

OOC General Discussion

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs

Northern Kings
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu May 12, 2022 11:47 pm

A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Northern Kings » Tue May 17, 2022 4:25 pm

Hello everyone.

Before I make this post I need to make some very important prefaces.

1) This is not meant to be a direct attack on any group, player, or individual. No names should ever be brought up, and I'd prefer against using specific examples that point to people directly.

2) This isn't supposed to be a call to action as much as a discussion, and to see what, if anything can be done about it.

3) This is purely my own thoughts. I realize that they may not be popular!

4) Just because I may say I dislike certain things, does not mean I am disparaging people who play this way.

With that in mind.

I think this server (And NWN as a whole if I am being honest) has a bit of a problem when it comes to how certain classes and groups end up being played, as well as how the world is interpreted. And this problem leads to a lot of very closed off roleplay that doesn't get to exist, as well as justifications that don't really make much sense in the world we're playing in.

I love paladins. The class and what they stand for make them stand out from most other sort of classes and characters out there. They are supposed to be the bulwark of the common person. People who stand up for ideals and use their faith, their sense of morality, and their martial strength, to push back the forces of evil.

The issue I often end up seeing however, is that most of the core values of paladins seem to be ignored or misunderstood. Again. I am not sitting here trying to tell people how to play their characters. But I feel that the aspects of compassion, and empathy, are often lost, and the paladin has been relegated to a space of zealotry to kill any and all things you don't like.

"This thing is evil and I hate it so it has to die" is not a good justification for anything. And in the realm of forgotten realms and Toril, there is almost no city that does not contain worshippers of evil gods and goddesses. Temples to evil faiths, as well as good ones, are so incredibly common. If a paladin went around saying "Well, there are banites in baldur's gate so I'm just going to start murdering them" they'd be probably be brought up on murder charges.

It's actually immersion breaking, to have these people who are supposed to be trying to be good people and put morality above all else, to completely forget compassion and empathy when dealing with individuals, act without any sort of grey area, and just openly jump to killing anything in their path. No society would let these people live in their city. They'd be banished, or jailed as murderers.

Now if people are criminals or doing evil things, that's of course a different story. As an example. There are malarites on Cormyr who go around handling wildlife population control to make sure things don't get too out of hand. They act within the society they exist within, aren't breaking laws, and while they worship a very evil god, their presence itself isn't actually problematic. If paladins just went around killing them because "Malar is evil" there would be consequences to that.

But all of that nuance seems lost here and I'm genuinely wondering how it's justified. You have Cordor for example, a city who has a Banite queen, and banites in the court, but who will kill banites on sight? Really? I would suspect a good percentage of the population of Cordor are banites as well but this is conveniently handwaved or ignored by players.

I feel like Paladins should maybe be treated like assassins. Requiring some sort of application to be able to play one. Policing RP isn't fun for people. I get that. But I also absolutely hate seeing characters that should have nuance, compassion, and empathy, who struggle with doing the right thing being boiled down to "See something I hate, PVP and murder."

Again. I do not want -any- names mentioned. I am -not- trying to call out anyone or disparage how somebody Roleplays. But certain things should be held to certain standards.

I know that people will say 'If you do have specific examples, bring it up to DM's.' but DM's also are rightly hesitant about heavily policing RP. It can be subjective and there will usually be information that a DM might not have. And right now the only way to 'fall' is to basically be deleted. It's a very extreme step that shouldn't really just... start happening. Nobody deserves to be forced to delete their character because somebody else says you're doing it wrong (Unless it's... -really- wrong).

Should paladin be put behind similar request-only tokens like assassins? I don't know if this is a good option.

Should there be a fallen paladin path that can be taken or placed? It seems like it could be a problem to put dev work into something that can feel like such a negative thing to players.

I don't really know how this sort of issue can be solved. I understand that maybe being a fanatic could be the 'flaw' of the character. But almost no city in Toril would tolerate some of the behaviours so commonly seen. Including the instantly leaping to violence that's so prevalent.

Some of these problems aren't just paladins (The murdering anything you don't like) but at times it makes even -less- sense when you're supposed to show empathy and compassion towards. others.

I apologize for the hot take. Where am I wrong? What am I missing? Are there people who have different opposing schools of thought that can help provide some clarity? I just feel like seeing 'Guldorand allows Thayans and Banites to exist so everyone there is evil' or other such comments is completely insane for the setting but that's sort of where this server has been for years.

User avatar
La Villa Strangiato
Posts: 100
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:05 am
Location: Canada

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by La Villa Strangiato » Tue May 17, 2022 5:06 pm

there's a lot of morally grey actions in D&D but following the god of tyranny isn't one of them
Senrae
Saraskyn
Kallava Okaide
Nemerarie Athol
Rio Salazar

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by -XXX- » Tue May 17, 2022 5:16 pm

Zealotry and ideological hypocresy are as valid RP concepts as any. Though those along with the legit LG hero archetype can be covered by a myriad of other builds and classes.

My personal pet peeve with paladins is that they can objectively demonstrate their LG alignment = what they do "must" be good = whoever they oppose "has to" be the villain.

It's one of those things where the D&D moral objectivism doesn't really click with the PW dynamics all that well IMO

User avatar
Amateur Hour
Posts: 545
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:50 am

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Amateur Hour » Tue May 17, 2022 5:22 pm

A couple of thoughts on the subject, not intending to support or oppose anything in particular:

1. Your average person probably doesn't know the alignment of the gods, because alignment is meta-information. Malar is Evil in the source material, but does your average person know he's aligned with the fundamental force that is Evil? This said, some gods--Bane does come to mind--are self-evident; if you know a god explicitly stands for 'tyranny' it doesn't take a positive INT or WIS modifier to know that they're not a generous or compassionate deity.
2. The way evil gods function on Arelith doesn't always reflect the way they're worshipped in the Forgotten Realms canon. A lot of evil gods are worshipped primarily in an explicitly fearful capacity, i.e. "you are great and powerful now please don't kill us", on an as-needed basis. As an example, Umberlee is incredibly evil, but no sailor who isn't stupid wouldn't pay her their due before setting sail. Presumably, paladins are aware of this in canon. On Arelith, this is entirely unnecessary because your chances of rolling poorly on Sail checks isn't increased because you made Umberlee mad by not giving her treasure before sailing.
3. Not every paladin deity sees 'compassion' as a virtue. Some of the lawful neutral types are, for lack of a better term, complete hardasses. This said, some paladin deities definitely do see compassion as a virtue, and paladins who follow those gods should do their best to uphold it.
4. The fact Arelith is a microcosm of all things Toril means there's going to be a lot of violent conflicts that are avoided in the canon simply by the affected cultures being too far apart to realistically influence each other. Elves and Thayans have some radical differences in perspective that absolutely cannot be compromised on (e.g. racial supremacy, slavery) but in the canon, they're never having to live side-by-side as mutually respectful cultures...because they can't. Meanwhile, they're three blocks away from each other in Guldorand. This is good as a source of conflict for driving RP, but some people are going to get tired of the fact this conflict cannot resolve without someone losing respect for the setting.

(Edited to fix a spelling error.)
Last edited by Amateur Hour on Tue May 17, 2022 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rolled: Solveigh Arnimayne, "Anna Locksley"
Shelved: Ninim Elario, Maethiel Tyireale'ala
Current: Ynge Redbeard, ???


Northern Kings
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu May 12, 2022 11:47 pm

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Northern Kings » Tue May 17, 2022 5:32 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 5:16 pm
Zealotry and ideological hypocresy are as valid RP concepts as any. Though those along with the legit LG hero archetype can be covered by a myriad of other builds and classes.

My personal pet peeve with paladins is that they can objectively demonstrate their LG alignment = what they do "must" be good = whoever they oppose "has to" be the villain.

It's one of those things where the D&D moral objectivism doesn't really click with the PW dynamics all that well IMO
My issue tends to come with the circular logic that ends up often being portrayed is the issue. A paladin could commit acts which, by all intents and purposes, would be considered evil even from a cosmic sense of the word. But, because there is no mechanic for them to fall I have seen and experienced them then state

"I'm a paladin, and didn't fall, therefore X person must be a liar or Y must not have been evil". Actively stating that, because there is no mechanical means of consequence, they are right, and anything they do is 'good' and just. Which is sort of insane if you think about it.

User avatar
Inordinate
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:15 am

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Inordinate » Tue May 17, 2022 5:36 pm

Northern Kings wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 5:32 pm
"I'm a paladin, and didn't fall, therefore X person must be a liar or Y must not have been evil". Actively stating that, because there is no mechanical means of consequence, they are right, and anything they do is 'good' and just. Which is sort of insane if you think about it.
Report this to the DMs. This is bad roleplay.

Report anything you feel is damaging the setting or poor roleplay to the DMs to take a look at and evaluate.

User avatar
Dr. B
Posts: 907
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:36 pm

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Dr. B » Tue May 17, 2022 5:37 pm

There's a balance that needs to be struck here. A Paladin killing Banites on sight is probably bad RP but a Paladin casually hanging out with Banites is just dumb. The important thing is that if you're a Paladin, your alignment is lawful good. You have to play both aspects of that alignment, including the second.
Last edited by Dr. B on Tue May 17, 2022 5:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Northern Kings
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu May 12, 2022 11:47 pm

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Northern Kings » Tue May 17, 2022 5:39 pm

Dr. B wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 5:37 pm
There's a balance that needs to be struck here. A Paladin killing Banites on sight is probably bad RP but a Paladin casually hanging out with Banites is just dumb. The important thing is that if you're a Paladin, your alignment is lawful good. You have to play both aspects of that alignment, including the second.
This makes sense. There are cases however, where even Banites and certain paladin orders might agree - or even join forces. Against say, a demonic incursion, or even against Cyricists. They might not be joining forces as allies or friends, but they might see those groups - assuming certain crimes and issues are happening - as a more significant threat to order.

In most cities it is likely expected these groups sort of have to co-exist. Knights and paladins, along side banites and other such individuals, would probably trade jabs, but it's unlikely that anyone would go around and just start killing one another. The forces that be in such lands just wouldn't accept those sort of things usually.

User avatar
Dr. B
Posts: 907
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:36 pm

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Dr. B » Tue May 17, 2022 5:41 pm

I dunno. Playing a Paladin myself, "Everything is morally gray, a person is not defined by their faith" is a remark that I encounter from a majority of PCs to an extent that has become, frankly, kind of trite and annoying, rather than an exception to the norm. It doesn't mean my Paladin goes around killing everyone, but I do think a certain degree of intolerance towards evil is important, both to properly play the class, and to preserve the setting. I would rather see Paladins refusing to work with Banites than working with them.
Last edited by Dr. B on Tue May 17, 2022 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GrazalThruka
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:53 am

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by GrazalThruka » Tue May 17, 2022 5:43 pm

I think this is where Lawful vs Legal comes into play. A Paladin's code doesn't require them to remain within the law of whatever land they're in. Paladins in Thay don't suddenly become okay with slavery and animation. What a Paladin's code does do (most often, at least) is demand they uphold good, regardless of the personal cost. IMO, this includes being arrested/exiled/killed for things along this stream that the law considers wrong.

Compassion is definitely a huge part of the paladin code, but I think it largely can (and should) be thrown out the window when the evil becomes cosmic rather than petty. Decapitating the street rat who just pickpocketed you instead of just grabbing them and calling a guard? Probably not a good paladin. Killing the open supporter of the god of tyrannical oppression and hatred, even though it means you're a murderer in the eyes of the law? Maybe not the best choice for your own longevity, but it's Paladin-y. In my interpretation of it, Paladins should give compassion to those who are only causing minor harm because of their own unfortunate condition.

Charity for the poor thief stops him from needing to steal. Throwing the murderer in prison will stop any more deaths. And killing the servants of an evil god makes that god one follower weaker. There should definitely be some nuance, but there's no nuance in DnD's defined cosmic Evil.
And on the 8th day, God created the gnomes, because he figured that everyone had it too good as it was.

Anfalen - Paladin in Blue
Ander Lackridge - Socially Anxious Nobleman

Northern Kings
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu May 12, 2022 11:47 pm

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Northern Kings » Tue May 17, 2022 5:47 pm

GrazalThruka wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 5:43 pm
Killing the open supporter of the god of tyrannical oppression and hatred, even though it means you're a murderer in the eyes of the law? Maybe not the best choice for your own longevity, but it's Paladin-y.
If people want to play this way then I think they should be rolling their characters when they do these sort of actions. Otherwise there is frankly no actual consequence to being this fanatical. If that individual technically didn't commit a crime and you're saying it's okay to die for that, then your character should indeed be that short lived. But people don't respect death enough.

Actually this isn't fair to just say it's only paladins. I think most people end up jumping to this because death has such meaningless consequence half the time. I definitely have my own personal biases when it comes to things and my way isn't always 'right'. But I genuinely think if any characters are the sort who will leap immediately to PVP and killing when issues happen then maybe they should embrace it properly.

Ping14
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:41 pm

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Ping14 » Tue May 17, 2022 5:57 pm

Northern Kings wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 4:25 pm

1. "This thing is evil and I hate it so it has to die" is not a good justification for anything. And in the realm of forgotten realms and Toril, there is almost no city that does not contain worshippers of evil gods and goddesses. Temples to evil faiths, as well as good ones, are so incredibly common. If a paladin went around saying "Well, there are banites in baldur's gate so I'm just going to start murdering them" they'd be probably be brought up on murder charges.

2. It's actually immersion breaking, to have these people who are supposed to be trying to be good people and put morality above all else, to completely forget compassion and empathy when dealing with individuals, act without any sort of grey area, and just openly jump to killing anything in their path. No society would let these people live in their city. They'd be banished, or jailed as murderers.

3. Now if people are criminals or doing evil things, that's of course a different story. As an example. There are malarites on Cormyr who go around handling wildlife population control to make sure things don't get too out of hand. They act within the society they exist within, aren't breaking laws, and while they worship a very evil god, their presence itself isn't actually problematic. If paladins just went around killing them because "Malar is evil" there would be consequences to that.

4. Should paladin be put behind similar request-only tokens like assassins? I don't know if this is a good option.

5. I apologize for the hot take. Where am I wrong? What am I missing? Are there people who have different opposing schools of thought that can help provide some clarity? I just feel like seeing 'Guldorand allows Thayans and Banites to exist so everyone there is evil' or other such comments is completely insane for the setting but that's sort of where this server has been for years.
1. True, in the setting of Arelith, there are temples dedicated to evil patrons too. And most of which are guarded by hostile NPCs. Talossian's Stonehold, Reaver's Keep, Mersshaulk's shrine, Ouroboros' Temple, etc. There's a few handful of places that are "safe" for evil patron worship, such as Temple of Mask, Aisles of Insanity, Shadow Tower, Church of Bane, etc. Arelith's take on factions is to set up a firewall to provide insulation but also have some weaknesses to that same firewall (Half-blood camp with so many options to infiltrate, same goes with Myon, Castle Darrowdeep, Radiant Heart, Sharran tower, Church of Bane, etc.) Overcoming the obstacle either requires a skill, a specific requirement or finding a hidden alternative path. Firewall provides enough insulation for evil RP, but is not an unbreachable wall.

2. I've seen Paladin PCs get jailed, tried, exiled and even executed. So, I do not share the sentiment. While yes, I have heard less than ideal reasoning from a paladin (IE: Let's do it just because), I usually try to give it a pass and sometimes give them a way out by pointing out a better reason why we should do it (IE: Ah! Those bandits harm the trade routes, see that wrecked wagon over there?). Sometimes its the other way around, I'm the one lacking, but another PC gives me an opportunity to do better in RP. Immersion only breaks if you let it do so (Well, not always true. I've seen alot of crazy things that really just breaks immersion even if I try to hold it in. But its nice to have a mantra.)

3. Again, Arelithian setting. Malarites on Arelith have a deeply nested role in the setting. The Black Network of Evil, Morgunn and the summoning, etc. As you enter the temple the setting even gives you more reason to rid of them (opened "examinable" tomes, feasting halls, signs of obviously vile rituals). If they say kill malarites just because they are evil, I usually just give them a pass and will probably point out those reasons stated, reinforcing RP. If I am an evil PC tho, there's opportunity to antagonize the Pally.

4. DMs are usually looking at PCs, but I think its done rarely and usually on request. Alignment shifts can happen, even in a lawful good paladin (I've seen this in action, in a party with one, was given a few bumps in my alignment due to old NWN party dynamics in alignment changes). If a paladin is not lawful good anymore, then comes the forced remake/relevel. And this is enforced. The concept of a fallen paladin is possible, just not the Pal/BG combo, but requires a DM moderation.

5. I think your problem all boils down to "aggressive" PVP. And yes, PCs sometimes jump the gun on that button. Because who acts first gets tempo and more chances of winning the fight. If you play an evil toon, try and hold that hostile button for now and simply RP it out with intensity. (hold up your hand, sheath your blade, prove an argument, etc.) He jumps on it, and there are bystanders, surely one of them will point out that what happened is outright murder. But ofcourse you'll get wtfpwned. xD ... If you're one of the good/neutral guys and this happens infront of you, antagonize the pally who did it.

Its my personal take tho. I don't experience that much conflict tho due to the time I usually play on.
Give PCs chance to improve their RP and lower your expectations a bit. Everyone has a concept in mind they one to play out.

Arienette
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 352
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:56 pm

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Arienette » Tue May 17, 2022 6:03 pm

IMO, most paladins on Arelith are played “fine”.

In my experience 95 percent of paladins fall somewhere on a spectrum from “slightly too chill and open minded” all the way to “slightly more hardass than is probably appropriate”.

The 5 percent or so who fall outside that range into a TRULY inappropriate set of behaviors are a small number of outliers. I would like the DM staff to handle these people individually rather than any kind of sweeping policy changes.

I sort of take it with a grain of salt when people say “a lot” of paladins are too much this or too much that.

I have received OOC abuse via tells on multiple occasions from being haranguing me for my “poor Paladin behavior” when my character’s actions were objectively appropriate Paladin behavior.

Northern Kings
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu May 12, 2022 11:47 pm

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Northern Kings » Tue May 17, 2022 6:07 pm

Ping14 wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 5:57 pm
5. I think your problem all boils down to "aggressive" PVP. And yes, PCs sometimes jump the gun on that button. Because who acts first gets tempo and more chances of winning the fight. If you play an evil toon, try and hold that hostile button for now and simply RP it out with intensity. (hold up your hand, sheath your blade, prove an argument, etc.) He jumps on it, and there are bystanders, surely one of them will point out that what happened is outright murder. But ofcourse you'll get wtfpwned. xD ... If you're one of the good/neutral guys and this happens infront of you, antagonize the pally who did it.

Its my personal take tho. I don't experience that much conflict tho due to the time I usually play on.
Give PCs chance to improve their RP and lower your expectations a bit. Everyone has a concept in mind they one to play out.
I actually like PVP a lot. Probably more than I should. It's fun, but can also help progress story and conflict. I guess sometimes some of my concerns or frustrations also stem from the fact that, when I have played evil characters prior, I have 100% tried to de-escalate things, only to basically be killed anyway and everyone just swept it under the rug without further examination.

There is also a lot of "Well this person is my friend OOCly and ICly so I'm not going to potentially suggest they did something wrong ICly or even challenge their actions."

This only works some of the time. I won't name names but about a year ago I had a character who, while in guard custody in front of paladins and other such sorts, was straight up murdered extrajudicially while unarmed and in chains. I decided to let my character actually die there. It wasn't the ending I planned, but I felt the RP leading up to that was meaningful and might make some people question things.

It was swept under the rug and ignored with everyone patting one another on the back and saying "Don't worry, nobody will be held accountable" and everyone just walked off. You'd think that among 'good' people, they wouldn't be so willing to just allow a straight up murder, or that there might be consequences to it.

You are correct. I hold high standards to people who play certain sort of classes that traditionally require more specific roleplay thought put into them. It's why I stated my bias' ahead of time so people understand what lens to use when reading my posts. But sometimes peoples views on their characters will also lead them to never change, question anything, and just strut forth with "Well I'm right and couldn't possibly be doing something evil or questionable".

That's just one anecdote and isn't the cause for this thread. It's more of a cultural thing I've noticed over the course of years.

User avatar
Amateur Hour
Posts: 545
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:50 am

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Amateur Hour » Tue May 17, 2022 6:23 pm

With all the critique on paladin roleplay, what would we suggest as a way to keep to "better" paladin roleplay? I feel like a paladin of Eldath who's taken the Oath of the Ancients is going to react dramatically differently to circumstances than a paladin of Hoar who's taken the Oath of Vengeance...the latter one probably being very "swing-happy" while being perfectly within the guidelines of their class and their god.

Rolled: Solveigh Arnimayne, "Anna Locksley"
Shelved: Ninim Elario, Maethiel Tyireale'ala
Current: Ynge Redbeard, ???


Northern Kings
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu May 12, 2022 11:47 pm

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Northern Kings » Tue May 17, 2022 6:29 pm

Amateur Hour wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 6:23 pm
With all the critique on paladin roleplay, what would we suggest as a way to keep to "better" paladin roleplay? I feel like a paladin of Eldath who's taken the Oath of the Ancients is going to react dramatically differently to circumstances than a paladin of Hoar who's taken the Oath of Vengeance...the latter one probably being very "swing-happy" while being perfectly within the guidelines of their class and their god.
Yeah. That's absolutely true. I think that it's something to be kept in mind as well. I know that I have also seen some really great paladin RP and people who show this nuance when it comes to how they approach situations and issues that are facing them. I just also see a lot of people who seem to pick paladin more because it's a strong class that can PVP without much other consideration.

White935
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:15 am

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by White935 » Tue May 17, 2022 6:50 pm

To pitch in my commentary:
Paladins need to remember there's more ways to fight evil, then mercifully and unlawfully bash down evil.
Working politically, rally political support to resist and reject known evil politically or socially.
Influence or protect good elements of society and attempt to future the individuals who can legally deal with the matter.. such as a political leader who's mayorship could banish said individuals.

And also there is the redemption part.. if not also the not only a paladin problem but a general problem, where all crime and evil as only but a single sentence.. death.

Pickpocket, petty crimes or even highway robbery (as long as nobody was killed/seriously harmed) generally means being arrested.. this could also permit thus more cop'n robber roleplay... as it stands the only real crime is so far requiring both parties to fight to the death since there is little middle ground as it stands.

Xerah
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Xerah » Tue May 17, 2022 6:54 pm

It's been really detailed well in the Forgotten Realms book, I copied the important bits here:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=24866
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

Xerah
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Xerah » Tue May 17, 2022 6:57 pm

White935 wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 6:50 pm
And also there is the redemption part.. if not also the not only a paladin problem but a general problem, where all crime and evil as only but a single sentence.. death.
The sentence is death where people come back to life...

Speaking as someone who played a long-term "redemption" paladin (before the paths) it's important to remember that those types still have smiting as an option. Trying for redemption doesn't mean trying indefinitely and once you are "fooled once" maybe it's time to take up the blade.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

User avatar
MissEvelyn
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 1584
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:43 pm

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue May 17, 2022 7:16 pm

I predicted this when they changed it so that Paladins could dump wisdom as a stat 🤔


Joke's aside, I agree wholeheartedly that players who play paladins need to remember that there are a myriad of ways to fight evil that do not involve PvP.

A versed character will likely know that absolute evil only exists within extraplanar creatures, and not within regular mortals. Certainly some mortals might get to the point of no return, but the far majority of mortals don't contribute much in tipping the scales of good and evil. Our player characters will certainly be the exceptions.

Simply harmlessly worshipping an evil deity does not warrant a murder, especially not from society's most valiant protectors, the paladins. I joke about the wisdom score, but in reality it does take a modicum of wisdom to ascertain the evil in a person, and how to deal with it going forward.

Furthermore, unless a paladin, or their order, has been given direct authority in the city they dwell in, they have no rule of right to enforce the law or adjudicate matters. And every paladin, player and character, should know this. The law of the land is final, and while it may conflict with the paladin's own code, that does not mean the paladin gets to ignore the law.

I don't want to see paladins played as unflawed and perfect caricatures of goodness and order, but I think we do a disservice to our fellow players and to the setting, when we don't respect the role of our paladin in the world.


User avatar
Security_Blanket
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:45 pm

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Security_Blanket » Tue May 17, 2022 7:54 pm

This is all the more reason I think Anti-Paladin should be a path for Paladin, if they fall from grace they'd be Anti-Paladins and have their alignment adjusted to Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil. Maybe the thought that someone can not only fall but be redeemed will help with some of this "slay evil on sight" mentality.

Draco Deleteur
Dreadlord Lucius Blackhand - "All is as Bane wills it."


User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 6565
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue May 17, 2022 9:22 pm

So this is our yearly paladin debate, and i won't talk much because I've talked about this at other times. So I'll just lay down a few facts.

1) I'd always rather see interesting, fun, well rounded, creative paladin concepts than This Is How you Play A Paladin Here Are Your Personaltiy Traits and Here are The Things You Can do. You Must. Not. Deviate. From. These. Five. Things. *beep boop*

2) Whilst morality is objective in Forgotten Realms it is, by neccesity, subjective in this game. Because Real Life morality is mostly subjective. Moral objectivity does not work where you don't have a plotline to make it work.
(e.g - in FR the Trolly problem has a DEFINITIVE answer, leading to the fact that for all paladins either a) Inaction is always better than action. Better to let 10000 innocents die, rather than accidently kill an innocent yourself. or b) The ends justify the means. If you have to kill an innocent person, a child even, to save 10000 lives, you do so.)

3) We've thousands of players, we cannot micromanage paladin Alignment, so the only really realistic way of telling if one is 'breaking' it is via reports. And reports can be very much weaponised, especially when alignemnt is involved. Bob the Paladin who spends every day snogging his Drow girlfriend whilst watching slaves be tortured to death can carry on (so long as he's lucky enough that no Dm happens to pass by and catch him) But Joe the Paladin, who, say, snuck into a house and stole some documents to prove the guilt of a secret abyssal worshiper, gets reported because he 'stole' something, and, his alignment gets shifted and possibly his concept/build are destroyed. not because he's actually a better/worse paladin than Bob, but because he was reported.

Does this mean we don't police Paladin alignment?
No... but we only do so in utter extremes. So yeah, if your Paladin is wandering around with their Necromancer boyfriend, surrounded by undead, swinging severed heads of children by both hands -then uh, yeahhhh... we're gonna have words. But the DM team don't intervene unless it's very extreme.
Honestly we've better things to do, most of the time.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

msheeler
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:32 pm

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by msheeler » Tue May 17, 2022 10:31 pm

I wonder if many take into consideration that Paladins are aligned to a deity and should, above all else, work to protect and promote that deity's ethos. If you are a paladin of say Tyr then your dogma is:
Reveal the truth, punish the guilty, right the wrong, and always be true and just in your actions. Uphold the law wherever you go and punish those who do wrong under the law. Keep a record of your own rulings, deeds, and decisions, for through this your errors can be corrected, your grasp on the laws of all lands will flourish, and your ability to identify lawbreakers will expand. Be vigilant in your observations and anticipations so you may detect those who plan injustices before their actions threaten law and order. Deliver vengeance to the guilty for those who cannot do it themselves.
No where in there does it say to seek out and eradicate all evil. It says that you should first and foremost uphold the law, where ever you go. It is not at all legal, as you have pointed out Grumpy, to go around slaying what you feel is evil.

Personally, I am a fan of seeing fallen paladins and think having some fall, either willingly or not, would create some great stories.

Babylon System is the Vampire
Posts: 951
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:14 am

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Tue May 17, 2022 11:19 pm

I'm fairly certain that in 3.5 the code outweighed faith, and I have heard they shifted away from that somewhat in newer versions to make room for corner paladins and instead use oaths. Based on what a Arelith paladin is, I would say we are somewhere between a mishmash of that with some sprinkles of moral ambiguity and murder hobo on top.

Do I wish we played in a world where playing a paladin was a lot harder than it is in exchange for their power, and they fell for straying from the path of righteousness? Absolutely. But it's never going to happen, since as Grumpy pointed out this debate comes up all the time and these points are made in every example of it. Sometimes you just have to accept it is what it is.

The Vandals of Rome
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:55 am

Re: A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

Post by The Vandals of Rome » Wed May 18, 2022 2:01 am

It should be noted that the ideal of a Paladin isn't the same as practice in PnP. The standards a Paladin has set for them are aspirations and it is very rare for Paladins to go their entire lives without falling at least once - often more than once. This isn't a fall to Evil, it's simply instances where their conduct might have leaned more on Good, at the expense of their code, or their code at the expense of Good.

It's a struggle, and one that is rich in roleplay opportunities. Typically a "fall" simply means the Paladin seeks an atonement quest from their church, and completes it. In the world a Paladin "falling" in this way is almost expected to happen eventually, because they're human, and make mistakes. This sort of thing would be fertile ground for RP and needn't have DM police. One could judge their own character as having fallen short and roleplay a disconnect from their abilities until they are granted atonement by their church.

Locked