A discussion on paladins, and zealotry

[msheeler]

Question to all here -

When is the last time you saw a player admit thier paladin made a mistake (intentionally or not) that they felt they should be fallen for and then RP them that way?

I'm talking the sort of "oh shoot I thought you really had aligned with team bad and I was wrong for having persecuted and killed you" sort of thing.

[Distant Relation]

Never. My experience with paladins in Arelith is that they're always on the side of Right and Good, regardless of what might have just taken place moments beforehand.

Unfortunately, since alignment drift doesn't exist, deities are picked for their faith aspects rather than their dogma, and the paladin code is nonexistent, for the most part Paladins are played as warriors with excellent saves and a built-in carte blanche for always being right.

At this point I'm not even upset. It's just the way it is.

[Amateur Hour]

Question to all here -

When is the last time you saw a player admit thier paladin made a mistake (intentionally or not) that they felt they should be fallen for and then RP them that way?

I'm talking the sort of "oh shoot I thought you really had aligned with team bad and I was wrong for having persecuted and killed you" sort of thing.

I think a lot of the reason this doesn't happen is that falling from paladin-hood on Arelith means dropping all above your last non-paladin level, and falling from paladin-hood when your first level was paladin means a forced roll or remake (and if you remake, of course, you lose all your money, your gear, your quarter, etc.). We'd probably get some more fluidity here if there were a less hardline system.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

I do want to point out, there is a fallen paladin who resides in the Bane Church entry way. I recommend anyone who likes learning some lore to go there and talk to them, Very, very, well written lore NPC character.

I love them so much.


*Edit* Walking into the church wont make your paladin fall by the way.


Talk to people before you try and murder them is a great way to find a Rival/nemesis instead of a bloodfeuded player.

[Xerah]

Question to all here -

When is the last time you saw a player admit thier paladin made a mistake (intentionally or not) that they felt they should be fallen for and then RP them that way?

I'm talking the sort of "oh shoot I thought you really had aligned with team bad and I was wrong for having persecuted and killed you" sort of thing.

As Scurvy mentioned, it's really hard for a paladin to fall, so that adds to the rarity. It's also such a common trope that I'm really glad it's not more common. I mentioned two cases with my own characters where fault was admitted but neither was justification for a fall. Those sorts of things should be more common, not explicitly falling.

[-XXX-]

Question to all here -

When is the last time you saw a player admit thier paladin made a mistake (intentionally or not) that they felt they should be fallen for and then RP them that way?

I'm talking the sort of "oh shoot I thought you really had aligned with team bad and I was wrong for having persecuted and killed you" sort of thing.

As Scurvy mentioned, it's really hard for a paladin to fall, so that adds to the rarity. It's also such a common trope that I'm really glad it's not more common. I mentioned two cases with my own characters where fault was admitted but neither was justification for a fall. Those sorts of things should be more common, not explicitly falling.

This isn't really about falling from grace here. Every once in a while a paladin character does something that is in direct conflict with their core principles - it usually happens when their player sees an opportunity for an EZ win, knowing all too well that they'll be let off the hook if it happens "just this one time".

In the better cases (!) the character then engages in some sort of mental gymnastics, trying to justify their actions by painting their opponents as this big bad evil who could not be given any quarter anymore as they kept finding loopholes to get away with their misdeeds etc.
But more often than not this is performed just casually - "had to be done this way, good guys won, moving on"


msheeler asks a good question - do we see paladins try to rectify their errors if and when that happens?
TBH, I can't say that I have. On the contrary - we've had the opportunity to witness paladins dig themselves further into the ground by murdering people in the streets or in their homes over something so superficial as percieved slander when they had the audacity of publically calling them out.

[Xerah]

Uhh...the question was explicitly about falling.

As mentioned earlier, I think much of this happens behind the scenes that you're not even aware of given the character that you play. Some good faith to assume not everyone is scamming the system might go a long way.

[Xerah]

Question to all here -

When is the last time you saw a player admit thier paladin made a mistake (intentionally or not) that they felt they should be fallen for and then RP them that way?

I'm talking the sort of "oh shoot I thought you really had aligned with team bad and I was wrong for having persecuted and killed you" sort of thing.

I think a lot of the reason this doesn't happen is that falling from paladin-hood on Arelith means dropping all above your last non-paladin level, and falling from paladin-hood when your first level was paladin means a forced roll or remake (and if you remake, of course, you lose all your money, your gear, your quarter, etc.). We'd probably get some more fluidity here if there were a less hardline system.

To note, DMs now have a command to change your first level. Not to speak for them, but I'm sure this is one of the cases they'd be willing to use it.

[-XXX-]

I think much of this happens behind the scenes that you're not even aware of given the character that you play.

Redemption arcs that take place behind locked quarter doors... might be worth trying that with a necromancer or a warlock if only to see how that goes

[Xerah]

It doesn't have to be behind a locked door. Behind the scenes doesn't mean behind locked doors. A player/character can't know everything happening everywhere on the server at the same time.

Also, since you bring it up as something to laugh about, I did actually redeem a warlock character (my character was a redemption paladin) over a long period of time with DM assistance.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

I miss Kerri

[-XXX-]

Also, since you bring it up as something to laugh about, I did actually redeem a warlock character (my character was a redemption paladin) over a long period of time with DM assistance.

OK, since we're trading anecdotes here at this point, I've had the opportunity to witness and deal with paladin characters who chose to straight up disregard redemption arcs simply because they felt like being the hammer looking for a nail at the time.
And here you are arguing that a hypothetical notion of atonement should be enough for paladins to redeem themselves from straying from their path.

I laugh because whether you realize it or not, your argument only illustrates the double standard here.


Personally I'd like to see them acknowledging and owning their mistakes and... IDK, do something even as ridiculous as walking barefoot everywhere as a pennance for an arbitrary period of time. Stuff like that can contribute to banter between party members during adventuring and generally improves the RP experience IMO.
I'm not arguing for paladins to be obliterated by the DMs at the first hint of a mistake on their part*. Stuff happens and it all adds up to the character, so why not work with it?

*even if the common trangressions often go as far as spreading lies with malicious intent or manslaughter in a fit of rage

[Xerah]

Well, I'm talking about my own actions. You're complaining about other people's actions. If you can't see the difference between that, then I don't know what to tell you. I can't do anything to change other people's actions other than doing things myself and hoping they provide enough of a good example for people to follow.

The whole comment chain started when someone asked about characters who have fallen, i.e. personal anecdotes; I didn't just start this to disagree with you.

You would frankly have no idea that this paladin you see occasionally is undergoing some atonement process such as the one you describe. Maybe, in that case, you would scry them and see them modelled without shoes but there are so many other options that one can do for this sort of thing that is not as explicitly obvious.

And here you are arguing that a hypothetical notion of atonement should be enough for paladins to redeem themselves from straying from their path.

I have no idea how you've decided that's what I said. I didn't say anything remotely close to that. But for the record, atonement for paladins is an explicitly described process for them to get their powers back. I have no idea how that is a double standard.

Maybe you should read Scurvy's post again.

[Borin Drakkmurl]

I found that playing a Paladin of Sune was a hell of a lot of fun.

There were a lot of conflicting notions at work with that concept, that initially started as kind of a joke.

How do you combine the notion of spreading and encouraging love and beauty and art, with the uglyness and gore and destruction of what is, essentialy, a martial life style?

How do you combine a warrior ethos with a painter's sensibility?

How do you go on a bloody crusade against perceived enemies while trying to preach about the inner beauty inherent to the world?

Do you just pvp that ronin werewolf with barely more than a threat, or do you try and charm him into changing his ways?

Do you rush stupidly at the first Banite you see, or do you try and appeal to your common ground as knights and soldiers, and the beauty and honour that can be found even in the worst of battlefields?




I would bet that nearly all dogmas and deities can provide similar inner conflict and character depth beyond a one click smite machine.


I think what I am trying to say is: more people should play sunite paladins.

And also, even the most belicose, war inclined Paladins, can certainly be tools for powerful and layered story telling. So long as you don't play to win as a priority.

[Scurvy Cur]

Orestes was very good and I wish you’d had time to play him more.

[Vespidae]

In the real world, being a Good Person is tiring and hard work. We're impacted by needs and desires that make acting selfishly the easy way to go. Being generous with money is difficult for people who are hard up. Sticking up for others is a risk that could get you injured. And so on.
Being neutral, looking out for your own and staying true to a comfortable ideology are easier. You keep yourself safe and your fellows safe.
Being evil is something we avoid because we know it's bad, but also many slip into 'evil' acts because they're lucrative, or it's easy to slip into the habit of doing them.

In Arelith, it's not like that.

Being good is easy. The game is practically programmed that way. Good and Evil are actually real things, and you can generally avoid being Evil if you avoid things like murder, theft and summoning cool skeletons to do your awesome bidding. It's easy to be charitable in a game where the money flows like water.

Being evil is much less rewarding because you're going against the grain of the game. It involves going against the status quo upheld by other players. And it's time consuming and very risky.

That to me is the backdrop for the struggles of playing a Paladin. Because being a champion of Good SHOULD be a struggle. It should be a conscious choice to uphold the rights of the needy in the face of incorrigible tyranny. Thankfully there are some excellent villains to roleplay against on the server, and have been many times over the years, but a lot of the time the baddies are occupying the spot that would ideally be reserved for the paladins and those they protect: The Underdog.

It's a pretty hefty generalisation of course but it's an observation I've made after over a decade of playing. I don't know what the solution is other than making Neutral and Evil builds more mechanically appealing and Good ones less so, but I feel like that would create a nest of other problems.

[JubJub]

What does your god tenants say and are you rping what your god wants? It's up to the paladin to try and figure out how to do it. Some will be more zealots some will use more compassion. Even with Ilmater you have a paladin order that focuses more on healing and protecting and another order that is "an aggressive order that focused on fighting and destroying those who were cruel or enjoyed the pain and suffering of others." So even with Ilmater it can go both ways.

Honestly alot of this post seems like I think people play their paladins wrong. Report it to a Dm and let them decide. I've been jumped by paladins before for simply be suspected of being evil anf yet they couldn't name one come I supposedly had done. But I've had my paladin get jumped four days in a row once simply for being a paladin walking down the road. It really has nothing to do with the class but if a player is simply looking for pvp.

[msheeler]

I'm not arguing for paladins to be obliterated by the DMs at the first hint of a mistake on their part*. Stuff happens and it all adds up to the character, so why not work with it?

This is the point I am getting at. It doesn't have to be a hard core smash of the character, but to see a player just choose to not cast paladin spells and to try to be extra pious to atone for whatever miss deed that they have done would be AMAZING.

I played with a player who's paladin refused hand outs, refused coin and swore to only use what they could make or earn with their own hands, even refusing to accumulate any real amount of coin and it was shocking. Shocking in a good way.

Imagine seeing a paladin who kill bashed another character mistakenly refuse to use their paladin abilities until they had earned forgiveness from their victim. Wouldn't that be cool to see?

[msheeler]

To be honest I've seen warlocks play a redemption path. Some were sorta meh, others were super cool, but all earned my respect. I've never seen a paladin playing a redemption story line, even a short one.

[Scurvy Cur]

To me, that sounds like an anecdotal “you problem”.

[Kiffeh]

Question to all here -

When is the last time you saw a player admit thier paladin made a mistake (intentionally or not) that they felt they should be fallen for and then RP them that way?

I'm talking the sort of "oh shoot I thought you really had aligned with team bad and I was wrong for having persecuted and killed you" sort of thing.

There is a lot of truth in this post, despite the reticence of many to admit it. The simple fact is, a lot of people use this class, and many other classes, for unrestricted PvP. Its simply not a matter of in-character context or of rationalization - if you go into a situation wanting to PvP someone and that is the operative goal, its usually pretty easy to find an IC reason to reach that end.

To assume that the vast majority of players are good faith actors on a server where people get away with bad behavior relating to griefing every day, other players can clearly see that, and nobody is allowed to talk about it, seems fairly nebulous. We have a thread up right now full of people trying to have a conversation about times they've been unfairly griefed and left the server over it, after all. To presume that these events are not taking place, or that the people being unfairly treated should not feel the way they feel, is also one-sided and reductive as well, and not very fair to any of those players.

The issue being discussed is whether or not it should be okay for Paladin players to assume in a de-facto manner that they are always right, should always win, and never have to take a second look at their actions. In an ideal world, they do police their own actions. Some players do already. But a great many don't, and that's not just an anecdotal thing. We have these problems pop up for a reason resulting from in-character contexts that are one-sided and unfair, and that players are deliberately taking advantage of in that manner to remain untouchable.

Many Paladins can, and do, play according to strict IC rules, and I salute those players. I've also seen personally just as many Paladins fly off the handle, kill someone because they can in the streets surrounded by guards and allies, and then turn around and kill anyone who raises a question about it. Those times absolutely do exist and continue to happen to this day.

If you (or anyone else) would like to entertain a discussion on the matter that is NOT anecdotal, I'm sure many players would be willing and able to provide specific logs detailing the systematic abuse of the rules by specific individuals. As this is currently against the rules it seems rather strange to argue that the issue is that the evidence of this is vague and anecdotal, as it would get someone banned to express the argument in any other manner or to provide specific evidence, chat logs or any form of proof. In the meantime, being as how that would be against the rules, it is perhaps best to just take these players at their word when they say they are being abused, or at least not disregard the complaints out of hand.

Its probably worth noting that in an ideal world, habitual PvPers who play Paladins would fall more often, or otherwise be shifted towards Evil alignments that better reflect their behavior. At current, this is simply not practical. It would require a large amount of work on the part of the DM staff that they don't have the time to police for. We are, in essence, counting on each player to police themselves, and yes, this does very often breed bad behavior when players find out there are no consequences for the daily grief on a Lawful Good character, even if their targets are also Lawful Good.

[Arienette]

Seeing paladins go out of their way to kill paladins and clerics of the same, or similar, or allied gods over misunderstandings or for seemingly trivial reasons is probably the most jarring sort of behavior I have seen on Arelith.

I posted upthread about how IMO 95 percent of Paladin players play their paladins on a spectrum of behaviors that can and should be considered “OK” in terms of the setting and lore. But as the post above me points out, there certainly are those that cross all sorts of lines.

In these cases I think DMs should step in and insert IC consequences for the character. People have said “that’s way too much work for DMs to police that sort of RP” and that might be true, I have no idea. But it seems to me that these paladins characters who REALLY go off the deep end are relatively rare, and perhaps few enough in number that DMs addressing it could be feasible. Perhaps they already do this. Obviously we can’t/don’t see the vast majority of what DMs do.

[Ork]

One of humanity's most bloodiest times is over internal religious disagreements.

[MissEvelyn]

One of humanity's most bloodiest times is over internal religious disagreements.

Right, in a world where gods do not grant powers to us nor come down to have a talk.

In the Forgotten Realms, however, religious disputes among the same alignments are solved with diplomacy, debate, and the beseeching of their deities. We're not talking about scandalous events happening behind closed doors of morally questionable Waterdhavian nobles. This thread is about society's prime role models. They aren't perfect, and history has a good number of paladins falling to the evil side. Perhaps because the pressure to be nearly perfect is too much. But either way, we should expect the paladin player's character to be held to the highest of standards.

When you create a paladin on a Forgotten Realms-based roleplay server like Arelith, you are expected to roleplay accordingly. Your character is expected to be a righteous representation of their faith and their order. That doesn't mean there is no room for mistakes or flaws. We all love flawed characters! Even if that flaw is "I am overly zealous!".
The issue isn't overly zealous paladins. The issue is overly zealous paladins who are played by clueless players. Players who think they're doing the right thing. They treat it as a strength, and not as a weakness/flaw.

That's not an insult, and I don't want my words to be read as such. Rather it's an opportunity for all of us to get a better understanding of what it entails to play the paragon of goodness and order.

[Ork]

I think it should be mentioned that plenty of churches are in upheaval. Helm's church particularly with the role played in Maztica. Oghma's church is in an open civil war. Torm's own church neglected their duty in Tantras during the avatar crisis in which Torm smote his own followers. It happens.