The Value of "Why?"

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magistrasa
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The Value of "Why?"

Post by magistrasa » Mon May 23, 2022 12:12 pm

I enjoy examining roleplay habits and server behavior, and this thread is solely inspired by some recent realizations I've had. Maybe this is something a lot of us already know on some subconscious level - when I lay out my point, I'm sure it's going to seem kind of obvious to some - but even so, I think there's value in straightforwardly examining and consciously implementing what we may already know by instinct alone. Without further ado, here's my thoughts:

How often do you ask a character, "Why?"
How often are you confronted with that question yourself?
How often do you step back from a scenario and ask yourself, "Why is my character doing this, and how do they really feel about it?"

Let's get a little real first. As a regular average human being, I'm often tempted to conflate questions with ignorance, and ignorance with weakness. In my personal life, there's a roadblock I frequently encounter as a result of my reluctance to ask questions. That's probably not a unique experience - and from cursory reflection on my experiences in Arelith, it's probably a prevalent mindset that pervades roleplay as well. The incurious approach to the story playing out before us, latching onto what cues we find familiar and ignoring other details as superfluous, drawing quick conclusions in the race to be the one with all the answers... And forgetting, along the way, that this whole experience is about the journey, rather than the destination.

Here's an in-character scenario to help demonstrate the point: We have a lot of DM events now, all the time. That's largely because we have a lot of new DMs, plucked straight out of the player base - and many of them are incorporating existing features and events within the world to tell their story. Some of the participants in these events have been around for literally years, and with that longevity comes a sense of, "Oh hey, this is happening again!" They've been around long enough to recognize facets of the current event running parallel to something in the past, and (sometimes justifiably!) think, "We'll just do what we did last time and the problem will go away." Cue the -conjure friendship circle until the thing they want to happen happens. Frankly, I think it's silly to imagine any DM is eagerly attempting to rehash something that they've done or seen before - so why is there the assumption that the story will reach a satisfying conclusion by the routine execution of whatever solution might have been discovered 4 IRL years ago in a vaguely similar scenario? I feel that there often feels like a disconnect between the players and DMs during these events, where there's a reluctance for one side to communicate intention to the other, and that leads to a lot of awkward execution of narrative beats due to a lack of mutual understanding. But I feel that approaching the unknown with the question, "Why is this happening?" or "In what ways is this new and different?" and "What effect is this having on the world around me?" can go a long way towards transforming an event from "something that is happening to you" into "something we are experiencing together." (That goes for you DMs too to an extent!)

Here's another scenario that approaches it from a more personal level (and, in my opinion, is where the real merits of this approach lie): Say your buddy is sharing a story with you about something that happened to them. "I got attacked by Banites, I just barely survived!" And as they're going through the story, maybe you realize that it's somewhat of a dry, detached retelling of the facts. "We met here. He said this. I said that. We fought. I ran away." Like it's some kind of court testimony and they're trying not to get their statements struck from the record. First of all, that's not because they're a bad roleplayer or anything - the ability to tell a compelling, engaging story is something you learn through trial and error, it's actually really rare for someone to just naturally be good at sharing a story without conscious effort. But you would be amazed at how transformative it can be to reply to that person with something as simple as, "Why did you do that?" It's genuinely awesome, like you can sometimes see the person stop walking and suddenly take a long time to respond whereas previously they were firing off messages with a quickness, then after a full minute of silence they hit you with that slightly-defensive one-sentence response and, without even realizing, your posture shifts in your chair and the entire tone of the conversation shifts because you KNOW the game is ON and now you both get the pleasure of digging deep into this character's bones until you find some revelatory nugget of subconscious conviction that you get to coax out into the open. That's where the magic is, guys. You all know what I'm talking about, don't pretend you don't. The only thing better than making that happen for someone, is to have that happen to you.

It works on an out-of-character level too, though it's often in bad form to ask the question directly to your partner. I'm sure we've all seen the familiar trope of a character fresh off the boat with some big self-imposed problem for someone else to solve. "I got cursed by some ne'er-do-well and I'm here to seek out an end to my suffering!" Well, a lot of us problem-solver types are inclined to be the end to their suffering. You ask the standard questions ("Was your mom a Sharran? Did your brother kill your dog in ritual sacrifice? Have you made any weirdly specific deals with forest hermits who smell like moldy cabbages?") and reach a conclusion, which you assertively inform the victim will be the right answer to solve their problem, then maybe you get some friends to stand in a circle and "-conjure" for a half hour... and then the problem persists, even though when you look at the lore or the way spells work or what have you, your solution probably should have worked. What goes neglected on a lot of our parts, when faced with a scenario like that, is consideration towards what this self-imposed ailment is seeking to explore on a narrative level. What theme is this new character embodying? What story do they want to experience? Why has the player chosen this particular ailment for their character? How does it affect the way they interact with the world? On a basic level, we all know the problem isn't "real" - which means the solution isn't either. No one makes a character suffering from some supernatural ailment thinking, "Boy oh boy, I can't wait for some random stranger in Cordor to case Remove Curse on me so I can stop having this character quirk!" I don't think most of these people have a "correct solution" in mind at all when they start out. Because it's about the journey, not the destination. You have to recognize that on some level, they want to suffer. So if you want to be part of that story in a meaningful way, you have to ask, "Why?"

"Why?" is an invaluable tool in examining that journey, and helping others realize the course of theirs. It's not a test or a "gotcha" to catch "bad roleplayers" in the act - it's an invitation for a character to share a soliloquy, to open up and deepen a relationship, or maybe even discover something about themselves. In that way, it's something you can use to create a better story. It's a catalyst for memorable and character-shaping moments. The best part of any book you've read has probably come from a moment where you suddenly gained new understanding of the world or a character, and that usually comes from the question, "Why?"

This is somewhat of an aside, but I feel like it's important to recognize that on some level, we're all playing out some self-insert power fantasy; and I point out that fact entirely without judgment, because it's just as true for the 10 RPR player as it is for the 50 RPR player. But what separates the 10 from the 50 is the purposefulness of that self-insertion, how consciously the blending of personae is monitored, and what level of self-awareness the roleplayer maintains throughout the performance. It's what makes it so hard to admit shortcoming. Especially nowadays, where it's so easy to find out who's playing what character and who's friends with what faction and who got reported for what rule break - we all feel that our roleplay reflects on ourselves on an OOC level. Which is why the temptation to "know everything" with our characters is so strong, and why it sometimes feels so uncomfortable to allow ourselves a moment of genuine vulnerability through our characters. A lot of us might even have fresh memories of a time where that was taken advantage of. But in the end, we're all logging in because we all want to experience a good story. That's what Arelith provides at its best. I don't think any of us are after a power fantasy, not really - I think deep down we all prefer the fantasy of self-discovery and enrichment. The constant and unending quest for self-improvement. It's so much more satisfying to realize the ways we are flawed, and have friends that care enough about us to help us discover those flaws and work together to overcome it. If you have the ability as a collaborative storyteller to help others reach those revelations, I think you'll find your time on Arelith a lot more meaningful and rewarding. At least, I know I have!

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Skarain
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Re: The Value of "Why?"

Post by Skarain » Tue May 24, 2022 7:22 am

A very good essay. A thoughtful one. Thank you for writing it.

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Hazard
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Re: The Value of "Why?"

Post by Hazard » Tue May 24, 2022 8:41 am

Why?

(just kidding, nice post, enjoyed it)

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Re: The Value of "Why?"

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue May 24, 2022 9:58 am

Well, this is a just brilliant post! I love it to bits!
But you would be amazed at how transformative it can be to reply to that person with something as simple as, "Why did you do that?" It's genuinely awesome, like you can sometimes see the person stop walking and suddenly take a long time to respond whereas previously they were firing off messages with a quickness, then after a full minute of silence they hit you with that slightly-defensive one-sentence response and, without even realizing, your posture shifts in your chair and the entire tone of the conversation shifts because you KNOW the game is ON and now you both get the pleasure of digging deep into this character's bones until you find some revelatory nugget of subconscious conviction that you get to coax out into the open. That's where the magic is, guys. You all know what I'm talking about, don't pretend you don't. The only thing better than making that happen for someone, is to have that happen to you.
Wow. I'd never really considered this, at least from a conciously, but this is an absolutly brilliant idea! This is the sort of thing I'm going to try and do myself as a playe. Really great advice I love it!
How does it affect the way they interact with the world? On a basic level, we all know the problem isn't "real" - which means the solution isn't either. No one makes a character suffering from some supernatural ailment thinking, "Boy oh boy, I can't wait for some random stranger in Cordor to case Remove Curse on me so I can stop having this character quirk!" I don't think most of these people have a "correct solution" in mind at all when they start out. Because it's about the journey, not the destination. You have to recognize that on some level, they want to suffer. So if you want to be part of that story in a meaningful way, you have to ask, "Why?"
So I read this whole bit whilst screaming YES! YES! YES! at my keyboard because I LOVE IT! This is how I feel so much! Player side I often play broken characters in some way, or am attracted to them - and a huge amount of playing that sort of game is working out what the other player wants out of a sitaution. As you said, often it's not so much to be instantly 'cured' but to explore the story, to make interesting plot, and working that out can be a tonne of fun! I also get how for some it can be frustrating sure, and a little bit of ooc communication there can be golden, but it's good to embrace the flaws in other characters (and your own.)

As for your first point - re Dms, you reminded me a bit of this Video, (the good bit is about 2 min in, but I recomment watching from the start)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7In4ftJddEo
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: The Value of "Why?"

Post by Wolfgangvondi » Tue May 24, 2022 1:34 pm

Hi!
I have to agree whit the Original post.
I have a long way to go in terms of RPing, and even have some difficult's that actually make it a bit more challenge. Writing does not come easy to me, even in my mother tongue (that is not eng) and a few more quirks.

But one thing that i have been realizing for a long time now is that my incredibly experiences in RPing in the Arelith world come really not from Me, but from the others players that I'm fortunate to have interested in my char and what I'm trying to do.
They are actual the ones that "build" and bring to "life" everything around my char after I just given them a little "RP Seed".

And whit that in conscience we have to be humble and grateful that others offer there's time and RP skills to make your char RP line come to life and "bare fruits". I honestly think that maybe, sometimes is when we forget about this conscience of beeing grateful for the "other", that leads to so much problems. And makes it easy to fall for the more single line of RP to "JUST" build a "powerful" PVP Char, or even PVP group of chars, and just try to impose/force our RP. And that normally falls a lot in simply "We kill everyone".

My last char was "suffering"... no..that's real the wrong term... rp wise it was blessed by split personality. Something already very seen in the server im sure. But again, it was the ones that choose to make my char RP come alive, that made all the difference.
And the journey was all that matter here. From the first "What is happen here?" To "why is it Happen", "How we can solve it?", to unexpected "Should we solve it?" to the final fallout of the conclusion, and how that effected not only my char and little story, but also others char's story and even way of being/ thinking/beliefs.

So all of this, to just add the thought of the OP, the following: i think of myself as a Guest here. As such, what comes my way is taken not for granted but as a gift. And I'm not the one in the position to impose, demand and so on. I try to roll whit what is given to me, to my best ability (even if its not that good) and yes, question myself the Why. Even if I may not end up whit the best answer's : )

Oh.. just one more thing. I try to be open to what others do in terms of reflection on my Char. It can and even should, change your Char and even RP line. In my mind that's how a Char real starts to be some one, that Is not you, or simply your plan at the beginning... but is realy a product of what she/he lived and the world around.

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Re: The Value of "Why?"

Post by D4wN » Wed May 25, 2022 12:29 am

I love this post. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this.

I couldn't agree more with all of this and it's a philosophy I live by both ICly and in my real life. One of my favourite books is "Start with Why, by Simon Sinek". Ultimately I believe we are all driven by this one simple question. Whether we know what the Why is at the time we are being asked such or not, eventually it is at the core of everything we do.

And I love ICly exploring the why's of people's characters. I love hearing their background story and if they haven't developed it yet, I enjoy teasing out enough for them to think about it. This usually leads to them feeling a deeper connection with the character they play. Not everyone has their background stories worked out or immediately understands why their character did something and that's okay! They may just have thought that at the time it felt like it was the right thing to do.

Understanding breeds empathy. This has always been my belief.

Like GC, I too enjoy playing broken characters or finding my way to them. People who have a dark or emotional past or suffer from some sort of physical or mental ailment and even slaves. It isn't about immediately having this fixed, or maybe about having it fixed at all. But the simple deep engagement and development you get from having such a character or finding a character like that to connect with, to me personally, has brought some of the best and most meaningful RP on this server.

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Re: The Value of "Why?"

Post by Paint » Sat May 28, 2022 4:33 am

I love this post, because I think introspection is very important to making a great narrative. So now, I'm going to talk about the most selfish part of a narrative -- your character;

As a DM -- of various PNPs, not Arelith, I do not DM arelith, as indicated by the lack of color in my name -- I've learned over the years I have a particularly fast and loose style when it comes to storytelling. This is great if you want to do a lot of adhoc things or have a group that enjoys going off the rails a lot. Being able to quickly respond to a sudden tonal shift or an unexpected action helps keep the ball rolling.

Except. One of the problems I run into when I do this is an erosion of the plan. I think I've learned to embrace that a game's probably going to be boring if it goes entirely according to plan, but also, it kind of means that you have to be able to shift the pieces of the puzzle around in the background. A lot of this is being flexible with 'Why?' Rather, knowing when to alter a character's motivations.

I think my roleplay on Arelith is demonstrative of why introspection is healthy, yeah. Roleplay requires a certain amount of fluidity, and an acceptance that your character is not always the center of attention, not always the protagonist, and not always going to be able to act the way they want to act. For a lot of people, I think that tends to feel like a straitjacket, but to me, it always presents an interesting opportunity for a character to mature and change.

I think occasionally, a good roleplayer will know when to relent and pull their punches to make a good narrative, and learn to use their character as a piece of a puzzle to help create something special. Knowing when to take a backseat or play the role of the supporting cast and have fun with it is a big part of making a community that's enjoyable for everyone. And personally, I've always liked playing the role of the sassy sidekick or the secret unlockable side character that you regret going through that quest chain for because they just never shut up- Right. Before I get too sidetracked, the point I'm driving at is, sometimes doing something your character wouldn't necessarily normally do because it suits the story at the time can be a good thing... and...

I'm not going to pat my own back too much here because I think sometimes I've been more rigid than I've ought to, but when you do that... when you erode the plan you have for your character -- the motivation behind their actions -- it's easy to just brush that off as a one time thing, or tell yourself you were just doing that because it made sense for the scene, but sometimes it can be a great tool to stop yourself and ask if there's a nugget of something exciting and new in there. Sometimes, it can be fun to ask yourself why that character would do x or allow y in that specific situation, and to make something of it.

The point is, when things don't go according to plan, instead of trying to put things back on track, ask yourself why. It's a great way to make your character feel alive.

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Re: The Value of "Why?"

Post by Levefre » Sun May 29, 2022 2:00 pm

Brilliant post, very much enjoyed reading it.

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Re: The Value of "Why?"

Post by Salasker » Sun May 29, 2022 8:54 pm

An absolutely excellent essay. Finding out why a character has come to Arelith has long been a way I've tried to meet people (with the bonus that you'll not just meet new characters, but new players this way as well).

Inspiration for your own character can come from all sorts of different sources, not only for your own over-all character goals, but finding new ones along the way. It's one of the things that keeps me coming back, one of the reasons I have an inventory packed with souvenirs and mementos. Hearing new stories, meeting new characters, is always exciting, not to mention the thrill of meeting someone brand new to Arelith and helping them learn some of the many unique features that are offered here.

And I agree that for established characters, it's important to not try to be THE answer, but to help others along their road. No one's ever written or enjoyed a book where the protagonist has everything wrapped up by the end of the first chapter. Giving options, rather than trying for the quick fix is much more satisfying, both for the one being asked for help and the one asking, hence the 'not the destination but the journey' saying.

To add a bit from my own experience: I've found that often, a short series of tells asking what they might want from any such encounter can also add a lot of hooks that can then be used for some 'Yes, and...' moments. Without filling up the chat with green text, a few inquiries can let you know in a general way what you both would like to accomplish for that particular 'scene' and can lead to some pretty interesting developments later on.

(As an aside, I remember a fun encounter where someone asked me for help and, while I don't remember the exact conversation, it went something like this:
"I went where you said, but you didn't tell me there would be an army of orcs in the way!"
"Hardly an army, and you seem to have lived. Did you find [the thing] you sought?"
"Yes! Barely!"
"Ah, no harm done then. *a pause* Well, no permanent harm, at least.")

Co-operation is key, the stories that come up when we make that effort evoke both uproarious laughter and occasional sadness. I get to laugh, cry, be scared, feel joy and the whole gamut of emotions when it pays off, which it does exceedingly often. It's why I love this place and it's why I keep coming back.

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Re: The Value of "Why?"

Post by Gremkarc » Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:15 am

Yesss. I love this.

One of the best and most enduringly valuable pieces of RP advice I was ever told (OK: read, on a forum, a long time ago) was basically to let your curiosity for other characters come before any desire to show off your own. Ask those questions, like "why", "where", "when", because the answers give your character a chance to reflect and maybe reconsider their own stances on things. Hooks aplenty lie underground, narrative treasures just waiting to be unearthed by the right question. But excavating them sometimes has to be done consciously: by looking around, noticing things, and asking. And "why?" is definitely among the best of those queries.

Kudos for this thread!

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Re: The Value of "Why?"

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:36 am

This is great food for thought. Thanks, magistrasa.

I can spy a good roleplayer from a mile away because they're constantly asking questions.

And I think that's another idea what you're skirting around - and what some other folks are too. It's the fact that asking a question puts the "power" of the scene in someone else's hands.

You're highlighting, spotlighting, and letting someone else set the tempo of the dance. You're inherently making the interaction less about "me" and more about "you."

This boils down a lot to the old adage, "listen more, talk less." It's really a great signifier of excellence, in many many scenarios.
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Re: The Value of "Why?"

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:11 am

This thread makes me think of a video I randomly stumbled upon. While the video is talking about MMORPGs in general, I think with how times have progressed we can apply it to Arelith, as well.

Take a watch/listen, would love to hear people's thoughts on this =)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIhGAVPYU1w


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Re: The Value of "Why?"

Post by Xantor_Stromgate » Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:42 pm

Why. One word, endless possibilities. 'Nough said!
It's all peaches 'n' cake!

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Re: The Value of "Why?"

Post by Gremkarc » Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:56 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:11 am
This thread makes me think of a video I randomly stumbled upon. While the video is talking about MMORPGs in general, I think with how times have progressed we can apply it to Arelith, as well.

Take a watch/listen, would love to hear people's thoughts on this =)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIhGAVPYU1w
Right, so! Even in a game that isn't set up as an MMO per se, with nothing mechanically designated as a "PVE raid", there is a hell of a lot of traffic in the builds advice channel on the Arelith Discord server. Players REALLY LIKE their efficency, I guess because they see no reason not to be firing on all cylinders. And the thing is, role-playing games aren't quite a simulation of life; life isn't full of hard-and-fast stats, like strength. Health points are completely detached from real-life (see how a character sitting on 2hp out of 100hp is still able to operate at full capacity).

So I think it's entirely good and understandable that people make these decisions on character builds without keeping their character *foremost* in their mind. After all, a bad build could lead to a succession of wipes, and all the awkward RP that entails (getting sent back to the fugue, etc etc). The way Arelith weds game to roleplay is one of the most compelling things about it, but they aren't *always* the easiest of bedfellows.

What I've noticed when playing MMOs over the past 15 years is that they've moved away from the "grind mobs in a field" mindset, via the addition of proper, objective-orientated quest systems, towards a hyper-focus on story and making the player-character "unique". Basically, from modern WOW to FFXIV and ESO, they've all opted to tell single-player stories in an MMO setting. And the moment you do that, the IC/OOC division widens to the extent that you cannot have an Arelith-like IC questing experience, because it really doesn't make sense. I don't think it'd be a good idea to list endless examples here, but the more lore characters take you under their wing, and your player-character is given special privileges and tasks, the less sense it makes to encounter someone else out in the field and hail them ICly, and quest with them in the same fashion. Therefore, just about the only roleplay that can be done must be tacked-on to the game, not done mechanically, or if it is, through RP-PVP.

A greater focus on storytelling, as MMOs take lessons from single-player games, effectively places RP to the margins. To take WOW as an example: up to Cataclysm (overlooking a few narrative-heavy quests in Wrath of the Lich King and The Burning Crusade) you could conceivably quest, in character, through the whole game. And some people, myself included, did just that. But then the game became more linear, more concerned with telling a *story*, and those opportunities fell away.

Quite a contrast from Arelith, which knows not to lay it on thick with the story. If Arelith has a problem in regard to the PVE/RP split, it's maybe that the gameplay the Dev team have constructed is maybe a little *too* fun, hah. People want to blitz through the early levels, and will consciously try to solo them to get to the glut of options later on. But the point is, Arelith seldom makes IC levelling feel contrived: even named bosses within dungeons don't attempt to form a relationship with the player, have no lore, and can be disposed of without care. An MMO developer would see that as a problem, as unsophisticated, and would want to remedy that by setting up some plot. But Arelith absolutely cannot that, it needs to be pared-back, so that if the same player-character is asked by others if they'll help in the same dungeon, they can say sure ICly and maybe even mention the fact they've been down there before.

In sum, some of Arelith's most defining features would be seen as heresies by modern MMO devs. This isn't an attack on what mainstream commercial developers do; and Arelith couldn't exist selling to millions (unless perhaps there were thousands upon thousands of separate servers with their own world states). Ironically, the MMO I've played which felt most like Arelith, in retrospect, was Amazon's New World, but that game launched without a /say channel. That just goes to show how little roleplay matters to MMO devs: shockingly little.

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