Evil elves

[Arigard]

I think the issue with the Underdark and the Surface relations has always been a feeling of characters being hamstrung into being helplessly blindsided time and time again to respect the idea of a "trade city", regardless of the lore of their races etc & ongoing events within the world itself.

Now, I think as players we all understand what a trade city is supposed to mean. Gold is valued above all and the only thing that comes in the way of that is when said trade is being threatened. An issue i find is that we only ever hear about justifications for trade for not stopping characters from engaging, rather than consequences for characters and races that actively choose to act in ways that undermine the city. The way Andunor as a trade city is portrayed is as being apolitical - in that it only cares about gold. But the issue is that trade is deeply entwined with politics by definition, even if that politics is only its policing of its own self interest. Who buys, who sells, who gets discounts, who gets barred from trading. A trade hub that is solely about selling, with zero tactics about who/why and how they engage is simply unrealistic and incredibly claustrophobic.

For example:

- Active surface plots that attack/plot/plan and convene against Andunorian citizens who may run shops, frequently buy and sell goods below/ or run institutions in the city, is clearly an attack on trade within, I would say. But that is something I never hear being mentioned either OOC, or in RP often, if at all.

So let's just say that common sense dictates it is an attack on trade - The issue with Elves comes not just from the lore, but because there have been phases of time where Elves in particular are a heavy antagonistic presence to the city. There have been plenty of periods where bands of Elves have been picking off Andunorians, hunting them, or outright waging war against them and for whatever reason their ability to organise (hats off by the way) has created a much more vocal distrust for Elves in general in my experience playing in the UD. So, regardless of Andunor being a "trade hub" - it becomes difficult to justify as a resident not viewing all surface Elves instantly on the lesser scale as a potential spy/informant/infiltrator and on the grander scale as potentially aids to the various iterations over the years of the groups that have clashed time and time again & sometimes even walked right into the hub and targeted Andunorians.

Now, is there a problem with this in RP? No, not at all. I think conflict is necessary to make things interesting. The problem it causes to Andunorians is trying to play a character that is faced with a threat that is:

1. Already a racially distrusted group based on the lore by many Monstrous races

&

2. An Arelithian (game lore) mistrusted race that is frequently being seen to actually hinder trade in the city - But the city does not seem to overly care about it on a setting level (Keep the gold coming!) - yet it cares about losing gold - except for when it's own citizens and traders are targeted, because keeping the flood gates open is more important that closing them selectively to protect it's foundation.

-Are Andunorian traders/regulars who run the actual place/set up shops/run events and bring plenty of trade cycle by cycle less important than some surfacers who visit and -might- buy something?

-Gold is important, but traders are not stupid. They do not buy and sell to their enemies to make them stronger, simply for the sake of gold. The politics of trade is something that I think often gets overlooked when it comes to Andunor.

-I've literally seen characters murder Andunorians on the surface and then waltz into Andunor the next day, looking for things to buy to facilitate them going out and murdering more Andunorians under the guise of "Trade City - I got my rights". Rpwise, your trade is not going to do so well, if all your traders are being murdered by their own customers - And I know this is a real extreme, but at a certain level, players have never really been totally sure what it actually means for how they are supposed to conduct their characters and what counts as a valid self protection mechanism.

The above is then made even more difficult by the contrast in which Underdark races have in cities above, by which all could be considered "trade hubs". Any city with a port, is going to be relying considerably on trade. The majority of cities that exist within Arelith are likely considered massive trade hubs, so I think one of the underlying issues that causes a disconnect with players on this idea, is why Andunor is so special that it often is expected to shoot itself in the foot for gold, sell openly to its enemies without a care in the world and constantly coerce its inhabitants to make the same mistakes over and over again to enforce a semi OOC driven concept that it is a trade hub?

Honestly, I think because of the above, the idea that Andunor is a "Trade Hub" simply does not work, mainly because OOC it leaves too little room for Andunorian players to work with & there really needs to be much clearer guidance on what that actually means for the rules of the city and conduct. Rebranding Andunor to a "Black Market" would be something that would be much more manageable and would make sense within the way the game is being played. It's a dangerous place you can go to, to find things you might desire that may be difficult to find elsewhere. But it should be dangerous, it shouldn't be somewhere that you get a free pass because today you decided to take a break from your monster hunting to buy a shiny dagger that tomorrow you might use to gut the very monster you bought it from.

Should Elves be allowed in if they can prove themselves? Yes, for sure - It should take a lot of work and trust, but that's already been happening in Andunor ever since I've been playing there at least (Last 3 year or so - Duvain/Sarek etc). Ultimately the issue with the "trade hub" motif is that it's almost expected that if you go there, regardless of who you are, or how little effort you've put into the preamble, all you need to do is go "But I'm here to trade and the Peacekeepers wouldn't like it if you did anything to me!" and you have a get out of jail free card every time - And the issue with that is - There's ultimately no safety in the UD for Andunorians and there's no other home settlement in Arelith that you can play that same card.

[magistrasa]

GOOD POST

Good Post Good Post Good Post

[Xantor_Stromgate]

My impression is that there are a lot of evil elves on the surface. Just (usually) not in-your-face obvious evil, as I’m not summoning demons and undead.

That is ... correct ...

I like using the BG II quote, "Well, I'm evil. But, I'm not 'evil'".

[MrHishprung]

The above is then made even more difficult by the contrast in which Underdark races have in cities above, by which all could be considered "trade hubs". Any city with a port, is going to be relying considerably on trade. The majority of cities that exist within Arelith are likely considered massive trade hubs, so I think one of the underlying issues that causes a disconnect with players on this idea, is why Andunor is so special that it often is expected to shoot itself in the foot for gold, sell openly to its enemies without a care in the world and constantly coerce its inhabitants to make the same mistakes over and over again to enforce a semi OOC driven concept that it is a trade hub?

This certainly tells the current situation across the servers.
Few years back the Underdark races had one surface trade hub named Sibayad that they could visit and do exactly the same what surfacers do in underdark - trade. This has been taken from them after the city changed into UD vs Surface fight club.

Now when UD citizens try to protect what is their last bastion where they can remain and put their own rules they are slapped with expectations to tolerate surface people that visit it because they bring money, and foreign spies in trader attire. Im not suprised that underdark players grit their teeth when they have to listen to this because they are the victims of the setting. Everything for surface, leftovers for underdark.

And the worst in my impression thing is that there is no viable alternative to this "trade city" that will have rules made entirely by its citizens. Sure, we have some "revamps" of the districts (that still are under "Trade city" cave). Result is 15 minutes of blowing party horns, some confetti to celebrate and we're back to one and the same city that feels simply bland after 3 years of constant playing in it.

[MrHishprung]

My impression is that there are a lot of evil elves on the surface. Just (usually) not in-your-face obvious evil, as I’m not summoning demons and undead.

That is ... correct ...

I like using the BG II quote, "Well, I'm evil. But, I'm not 'evil'".

[Ork]

Everything for surface, leftovers for underdark.

Now, this is really an unproductive jab. This assertion makes it look like there has been no new area design, dungeons, content, etc. for the UD while the surface has - there really is nothing further from the truth. I think there's a lot of good points to be made in this thread that might give the devs and irongron something to ponder over, but when you make comments like this it only serves to diminish the argument.

[MrHishprung]

Everything for surface, leftovers for underdark.

Now, this is really an unproductive jab. This assertion makes it look like there has been no new area design, dungeons, content, etc. for the UD while the surface has - there really is nothing further from the truth. I think there's a lot of good points to be made in this thread that might give the devs and irongron something to ponder over, but when you make comments like this it only serves to diminish the argument.

Yes you're right Ork, it was a total exagerration and generalisation on my side that i apologise for as it was a mistake on my part. The point i wanted to get across (and i often suck at it) is that the new areas and dungeons still kind of dont adress the foundation that is current situation in Underdark when it comes to RP options to not be stuck in one place/settlement. They are of course welcome, and new areas i've been in are often times a challenge that i enjoy with rest of players. For that, i tip my hat to them.
There might have my frustration coming out.
I dont want to diminish devs and Iron's great artistic work with Level Design and mechanics, they require a great imagination and knowledge of what player would want to get crossed with what they as devs want to keep with setting. I myself being a free-time game dev know how much others can affect the will and velocity of the work.
Next time i will try to pick my words better.