Evil elves

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Whosdis
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Re: Evil elves

Post by Whosdis » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:54 am

Waldo52 wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:20 am
It seems a number of you think the willing slave underdark dweller angle would be extremely difficult to actually pull off. This is kind of demoralizing and the enormous effort needed to just exist down there without dying makes the whole character concept seem a little too ambitious for now.

Still a really cool thread with a lot of insights into elven psychology and underdark customs.
It's not difficult, it just tends to be portrayed badly. Trust me- it could be pulled off.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:37 am

Whosdis wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:54 am
Waldo52 wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:20 am
It seems a number of you think the willing slave underdark dweller angle would be extremely difficult to actually pull off. This is kind of demoralizing and the enormous effort needed to just exist down there without dying makes the whole character concept seem a little too ambitious for now.

Still a really cool thread with a lot of insights into elven psychology and underdark customs.
It's not difficult, it just tends to be portrayed badly. Trust me- it could be pulled off.

It absolutly can be pulled off. But it is a little on the ambitious side. Though I should be honest, I think the 'elven slave in the underdark' is the easier part.

The big question you'd need to answer is why is your character a WILLING slave in the UD?
Generally when people use the term 'willing slaves' (and it's actually a term I dislike intensely a lot but whatever) they tend to be referring to characters who, if you check the backstory, have been beaten/brutalized/mindwashed so much that they accept their slavery fully.
The impression I have from your concept is your character is /choosing/ to go down into the underdark and /choosing./ to take the slave collar, in order to live with the Drow and the like.
Working out 'why' this is, is going to be the biggest hurdle. Most elf concepts I've seen - if not all, have been elves who've been taken unwillingly and then broken, in one way or another.

After you come up with that reason, it's all in how you approach the concept. I think the survival and playability of your pc will depend on:

*How threatening your elf seems
*How useful they are
*How much trust they gain.

So if your concept runs along the lines of 'I play Belurian Blackblade, a bad bum elven blackguard! He gonna take no lip from no one! He's going down to the underdark to show those Drow what evil really is! Gonna wear a slave collar, but ain't gona let no one mess with him! Gonna punch dumb drow in the face if they disrespect him! Gonna wear the collar until they beg to take it off, then he gonna be the big cheese down there! Yeah!

This concept has about as much lifespan as a snowball in a firestorm.

If your concept is more like
'Gonna play Belurian the Bard - an elven warlock/bard(1) who pacted to the fey and was driven so mad by their taunting that he scurried into the underdark to escape any surface fey, he ran afoul of drow and was captured, turned into a slave. What dregs of morality he had were almost gone entirely, and he wheedled and begged and crwaled under the drow opressors boot, being a useful little toady, suffering their cruelties, bowing and cowtowing to them as demanded. Eventually as he gained more trust, and performed more and more henous acts with them (helping them kill/capture other elves, sabotaging the surface, assisting in tortures ect) he proved himsef both useful and trustworthy and a house agreed to protect him, even without the collar.
He still has to work to prove himself to new drow houses, who find it very difficult to swallow that there's a free surface elf about. Still needs to show respect, cowing, and prove his usefulness and trustworthyness, but he survives.'
I think something like that is possibly more likely. You just have to manage your expectations.

It's an interesting concept. It can and has been done well. But it is challenging. Then again, sometimes the challenge is half the fun?


(1 - not a serious build idea, just a random combo that came into my head.)
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Rei_Jin » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:59 am

There are several ways to play a willing Elven Underdark character, and Grumpycat has shared one way of doing it.

There's also the angle of asking questions, namely, why would a surface elf betray his/her/their kindred, and seek out service in Andunor?

Asking that question, then looking to the answer to it, is a good start.

Answer it five times, each time, drilling down a little deeper. Layer upon layer, build it up. You can, of course, go further, but five whys tends to be a good format.

Example:

Joe Elf lives in Andunor willingly.

Why?
"Those damned surface elves can't be trusted"

Why?
"They'll kill anyone who threatens their beliefs."

Why?
"They killed my wife."

Why?
"They said she was a threat to us? No, to them, to the Coronal and Myon, all because she was different."

Why?
"Because she was a drow spy who had fallen in love with me, and I with her. After our wedding, somehow her secret got out. Now they'll all pay for taking her from me."

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Ork » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:10 pm

I think this is why I say it would be better for the server if elves in Andunor were treated similarly to goblins in Cordor. The whole of our drow policy circa 2004 was that drow shouldn't be having tea and crumpets outside the Nomad. There should be threat, danger, and hostility in their interactions with the surface and vice versa.

If you spend 2 minutes reading about drow and elf psychology you'd see that at the macro level their cultures are wholly incompatible. Drow believe their birthright was stolen from them when they were banished to the Underdark and it is all the elves fault, and elves believe drow were banished for their crimes of being wholly unelven and are deserving of a swift death. They don't get along.

There's a case that a Vhaeraunite might use surface elves, but Vhaeraun isn't interest in changing his nature. He's only interested in utilizing every advantage to hurt Mommy.

I read through the Skullport PDF extensively. Skullport has around 100 elves, the majority drow (as in 99%) and the only named "elf" is a half-elven thief that also is a shopkeeper. Suffice to say, if we want Andunor to be like Skullport - there's next to nil elves in Skullport.

So back to why goblins and elves are similar here. You could be the best goblin roleplayer in history but being in Cordor presents issues. It doesn't vibe with the setting where races are inherently prejudiced, suspicious, and protective of their environment. Why elves get a pass in Andunor is beyond me.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Itikar » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:36 pm

Ork wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:10 pm
I read through the Skullport PDF extensively. Skullport has around 100 elves, the majority drow (as in 99%) and the only named "elf" is a half-elven thief that also is a shopkeeper. Suffice to say, if we want Andunor to be like Skullport - there's next to nil elves in Skullport.
The most famous elf in Skullport is Kestin, the proprietor of Skullport main tailoring shop, and he is a moon elf. He also collaborates with slavers occasionally, drugging and selling off troublesome customers or other people that threaten him. (Page 54 of the the Skullport sourcebook).

There is also the interesting case of the thief Spider (page 94), who pretends to have elven blood, in order to hide the fact he is a tiefling. I always found quite amusing that in a place like Skullport one would be more accepted by pretending to have elven blood, instead of admitting he had fiendish blood.

Regarding full blooded elves, however, Oel'yvia Reefglider (page 47) is also the sea elf barmaid of the Bindle's Blade inn and also a rather popular singer and main attraction of that establishment.

Malakuth Tabuir (page 48), the Vhaerunite drow slaver, trades in elven and human females, in exchange for drow goods.

As for the half-elf you mention, is he mayhaps Anderian, owner of the Lamplighter (page 58)?

There is also a much more important and powerful half-elf in Skullport, whose lineage traces to a moon elven mother in Ardeep, who is Lord Byronae Trilluach (page 59), one of the three mercenary Lords in Skullport.

These are the main ones I can think of.

With respect, Ork, but I believe your reading of the supplement may have been a little superficial. I am hardly fond of elves in the Underdark either, but I do not think we can sensibly deny that Skullport has elven residents or that individuals with surface elven blood cannot live there as free citizens or slaves, especially if their views and values have little to do with the Seldarine and what they stand for. Andunor and Arelith are also not necessarily bound to follow the Skullport sourcebook and I find the discrepancy between how monster races, which actually include some legit surface ones, are barred from simply existing as PCs on the surface, anywhere, not in cities or in Cordor, to be jarring in comparison to the relative ease with which even elves can earn their spot in the very heart of Andunor.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Whosdis » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:08 pm

My main issue with that, Ork, is justifying there being no Elves because of orthodox Elven beliefs and orthodox Lolthite beliefs. As far as I can tell, Andunor is not meant to be a monolithic Lolthite settlement, and evil Elves meandering about in Andunor would, simply put, not have orthodox Elven beliefs. I feel yours is a somewhat reductionist argument: Same thing for your take on Vhaeraun, who was the major Ilythiiri deity before the Sundering.
This feels like you're trying to blanketly prevent the possibility of Elves being in the underdark because of everyone's shared distaste for Elf slaves walking around in slave Leia outfits. Personally, I just don't care for collective punishment out of something that should simply be reported and policed. I've noticed some of the most egregious offenders in my brief tenure being gone.

Image

Here's even a snippet from Sshamath, where Elves are the first race excluded from enslavement.
Now, if we wish to treat the Drow as Salvadore has, and hand-wave all of them to Menzoberranzan except for an exceptional good superhero, there is more to the Drow than Menzoberranzan.
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I think if you're gonna play an evil elf they should have a distinctly different Vibe than "drow but they like trees".
Funnily enough, in spite of being Demonologists and relishing the destruction brought by Evocation, the Fey'ri were described as sparingly using the Magic so as to not bring harm to the forests, a thought which made the Elven part of them shutter.
Fiendology is a bit different, mainly because of the whole "paradise lost" perspective. Bargaining for relics of the past from otherwise immortal, powerful beings makes a lot of sense to me. (Granted, the lorebook authors were pretty inconsistent as to whether the Vyshaantar thought themselves Corellon's champions and were only unwittingly propped up by Malkizid, or whether they willingly consorted with the Archdevil. Their original author stated the prior, and various sourcebook authors leaned more into the latter. Eric L. Boyd even insinuated that Malkizid was "one of many" patrons.)
Now granted, that sort of stuff should be ultra-secret occult level for anything on the surface, I definitely do not condone those being open. And whilst I think a sort of Wood/Wild Elf blighter who uses Necromancy is a poetic abomination, I can't think of a very Elven way of justifying that at all. But Human-cultured Moon Elves might make sense on that regard.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by With Darkness and Silence » Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:02 pm

I think it is worth noting the difference between an evil, chaotic, and even an "antagonistic" elf. Both chaotic or evil elves can end up in all walks of life. Whether they're actually an antagonistic character is debatable, even if they end up in the Underdark.

I've been around for a while and I've seen several dozen successful attempts at integration into Andunor outside of a collar. Many have been nonviolent. Some of those backed by a presence that supported them and personal charm to boot.

But not even all.

The literal main thing about Andunor is finding some way to familiarize yourself with its citizens so they view you as a nonthreat and are willing to have a conversation with you. There's a lot of ways to approach this.

The easiest involve kicking Snuggybear.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:19 pm

My main issue with that, Ork, is justifying there being no Elves because of orthodox Elven beliefs and orthodox Lolthite beliefs. As far as I can tell, Andunor is not meant to be a monolithic Lolthite settlement, and evil Elves meandering about in Andunor would, simply put, not have orthodox Elven beliefs. I feel yours is a somewhat reductionist argument: Same thing for your take on Vhaeraun, who was the major Ilythiiri deity before the Sundering.
This feels like you're trying to blanketly prevent the possibility of Elves being in the underdark because of everyone's shared distaste for Elf slaves walking around in slave Leia outfits. Personally, I just don't care for collective punishment out of something that should simply be reported and policed. I've noticed some of the most egregious offenders in my brief tenure being gone.
I'm absolutly in 100% agreement with this.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think that playing an elf fully in the underdark should be easy But I see no reason why it shouldn't be possible, if the work is put in.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Ork » Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:33 pm

Whosdis wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:08 pm
This feels like you're trying to blanketly prevent the possibility of Elves being in the underdark because of everyone's shared distaste for Elf slaves walking around in slave Leia outfits.
Read me like a book :lol:

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Edens_Fall » Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:50 pm

I've seen plenty of evil elf slaves in the UD with no issues being caused. Though if I am honest, being an evil surface elf seems rather easy as well. Just be a pro-elf superiority type and work towards keeping Myon "pure" or some other similar type of stance.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Hinty » Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:31 pm

Whosdis wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:18 pm

(Alternatively, maybe Myon shouldn't have a meta anti-Evil Mythal.)
So, point of clarification...
This is a thing?

I've not really delved much into elven characters on the server, and I think I've had a total of maybe one visit to Myon which was a character just escorted through as a shortcut from Guld to the forest, don't even remember which char.

I have a concept that has been rattling round in my head for years now desperate to get out which involves an evil elf. Very much a surface elf, and very much integrated into elven society. Is there seriously a Mythal that blocks or hinders Evil elves in Myon? Because if so I might as well scrap the whole concept.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Whosdis » Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:44 pm

Hinty wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:31 pm
Whosdis wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:18 pm

(Alternatively, maybe Myon shouldn't have a meta anti-Evil Mythal.)
So, point of clarification...
This is a thing?

I've not really delved much into elven characters on the server, and I think I've had a total of maybe one visit to Myon which was a character just escorted through as a shortcut from Guld to the forest, don't even remember which char.

I have a concept that has been rattling round in my head for years now desperate to get out which involves an evil elf. Very much a surface elf, and very much integrated into elven society. Is there seriously a Mythal that blocks or hinders Evil elves in Myon? Because if so I might as well scrap the whole concept.
It can be thwarted with spells, at least. And it's only active from the Arelith forest portal.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Hinty » Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:02 pm

Well that just has to go.

I'm sorry but how the hell is anyone supposed to play an evil elf if they have to advertise the alignment like that? You can only avoid using the portal for so long, people will notice if you just "happen" to have the right spells active every time you do, and how are you even supposed to know which spells you need without metagaming it before hand?

Not every evil person is out to rule the world, or murder baby seals. Many are just slightly unpleasant people who never do anything particularly notable, some are very friendly and charming people who work hard to hide that side of themselves whose evil acts are limited to skimming money, cheating customers, and maybe manipulating others for their own personal benefit.
Sticking a great big "This person is evil" sign over their heads just leads to interesting concepts automatically ostracised before they can get off the ground, and encourages murder hobo paladin play.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by chris a gogo » Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:19 pm

It was made that way to stop drow just walking into myon.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Itikar » Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:19 pm

If it really is as just described then it is really a very poor design choice.

I guess if I ever come up with an elven character concept, which I may very well do, I will give Myon a wide berth. Even regardless of whether my elf will actually be evil. I had to deal with similar mechanics in other games and I conserve an extremely unpleasant memory of them.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Hinty » Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:07 pm

If its only reason to exist is to stop Drow, then make it an anti Drow mythal. I mean seriously, THAT definitely makes sense in the setting, and any Drow spy sent by a sufficiently competent group will already know it exists and have ideas of how to circumvent it so metagaming isn't really an issue.


Don't get me wrong, an anti evil mythal can have a place in PnP. You can make a campaign set in a city with one and have lots of fun playing around with the way the world interacts with it, then move on to a new location for the next campaign.
You can have a city with one, and if the players don't like it, they can just up and go somewhere else.

But in a persistent world, its a problem. Players can't avoid it, especially if it is an important location for 90% of their races interactions, they are stuck dealing with it for years, even decades. It restricts gameplay options, it encourages metagaming, AND it encourages that old chestnut, the evil character who put Neutral in the alignment box.

Restrictions can be fun, and lead to players thinking outside the box, I used to play with a bunch of people who HEAVILY favoured chaotic and borderline evil characters, and were heavily invested in the "Paladins are stuffy boring fun police" misconception. So I offered to DM a campaign for them, then forced them all to play Paladins. Seven or eight people all making a char with the same class and alignment really forced them to explore the concept to avoid making clones of each other. It was great fun, they all greatly enjoyed it and it made them think outside the box in creating a char, such that they widened their horizons not only for lawful or good aligned chars, but also the chars they normally played. Limiting them was fun, it made them think, and it gave them a new perspective on char creation. But if a DM forced them to always play paladins every game, every weekend, every year, they would move on to a new DM.


Notice that 90% of the conversation in this thread is people assuming that an evil elf will be played in the underdark or just not addressing the surface possibility. How many fun, interesting and engaging evil surface elf concepts have we missed out on because the player that had the idea shelved it because they knew they would be outed the moment they stepped near Myon?

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Itikar » Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:11 pm

Hinty wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:07 pm
If its only reason to exist is to stop Drow, then make it an anti Drow mythal. I mean seriously, THAT definitely makes sense in the setting, and any Drow spy sent by a sufficiently competent group will already know it exists and have ideas of how to circumvent it so metagaming isn't really an issue.
I am not 100% sure about this, but I believe it already blocks drow, even those of non-evil alignment, or at least neutral drow, as far as I know. So I doubt blocking drow is the explanation for blocking evil elves too.

In any case, inspired by this thread I just opened a new one in Feedback, (viewtopic.php?f=37&t=38083) if you are interested, where I listed all the alignment outing mechanics that I think can be improved.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by fading » Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:34 pm

Hinty wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:07 pm
-snip-
You're preaching to the choir, pretty sure. Everyone wants the evil restriction gone (it's literally pointless now because Myon can be accessed through Guldorand by evil elves). It's just a very archaic system left behind for whatever reason.

That said, it's not as horrible as you make it out to be. I've known evil aligned elves with a not-insubstantial amount of influence who did just fine. No one's going to suspect you just because you use the Guldorand portal, since there is usually little reason to be in Arelith Forest, and plenty of reason to be in the Elven Quarter in Guldorand.

Hopefully they'll change it one day though.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:56 pm

I'd definatly be for removing it, never really liked it in the first place. But as Fading said, it also isn't as bad as made out.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by With Darkness and Silence » Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:26 pm

Itikar wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:19 pm
If it really is as just described then it is really a very poor design choice.

I guess if I ever come up with an elven character concept, which I may very well do, I will give Myon a wide berth. Even regardless of whether my elf will actually be evil. I had to deal with similar mechanics in other games and I conserve an extremely unpleasant memory of them.
I'm Chaotic Neutral and I refuse to involve myself with it on my elf.

Sure, it's true you can just bypass it with a spell you might not even know you're wearing at the time so it's possible to accidentally right by the mythal. But people also know what to look for in a mundane character's actions who don't get to live under long duration, free use spells.

I even played a Chaotic Neutral elf in the past who animated and had involvement with Myon.

Still didn't very much like the Mythal. Though I did kill a lot Drow for the cause.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Xerah » Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:59 pm

Itikar wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:11 pm
Hinty wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:07 pm
If its only reason to exist is to stop Drow, then make it an anti Drow mythal. I mean seriously, THAT definitely makes sense in the setting, and any Drow spy sent by a sufficiently competent group will already know it exists and have ideas of how to circumvent it so metagaming isn't really an issue.
I am not 100% sure about this, but I believe it already blocks drow, even those of non-evil alignment, or at least neutral drow, as far as I know. So I doubt blocking drow is the explanation for blocking evil elves too.

In any case, inspired by this thread I just opened a new one in Feedback, (viewtopic.php?f=37&t=38083) if you are interested, where I listed all the alignment outing mechanics that I think can be improved.
The reason was likely there was no subrace system back in the day and drow were just made as "Elf" with dark skin (which is why you see ELF in the subrace stats) or it was just coded to be lazy.
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Re: Evil elves

Post by Whosdis » Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:06 pm

On the plus side, it seems many of us are on the same page in terms of playing different kinds of unscrupulous Elves. Let's hope the Myon mythal is dealt with, but otherwise, I think a number of us finding each other in-game may provide quite the opportunities.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by ElvenEdibles » Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:58 am

Ork wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:55 pm
I voiced that argument because it is the same one used to keep goblins off the surface or from entering surface settlements. If it is true for goblins on the surface, it is also true for elves in Andunor.
It is true for both.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by -XXX- » Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:50 pm

There is:
- needlessly excessive mechanical enforcement aimed at keeping non-elves out of Myon.
- insufficient (non-existant) mechanical enforcement aimed at keeping elves out of Andunor.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by MrHishprung » Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:29 pm

From my experience playing elf in UD requires a lot of effort and adamantium reinforced mental health as it can bite you like a crocodile.

If you want to play in UD, start on surface get some levels and background. Then you can think or arrange some capture RP where you get enslaved. From there you have to "fit into" right places and right people. Back when i was slave (and even after taking it off) to high ranked priestess, i had great time with matrons and priestesses. The ones who had issue were ironically humans, or male drow.
After some time when you feel that you earned enough standing you can attempt to get collar off and live among them.

Just mind its not guaranteed to be successful. I learned it in hard way and ate my nerves with it.

Now my elf is known among the old-citizens that usually have their own standing and have good mind on my character. A lot of depends what you're going to do as well. I like chatting by the wine and telling the story she had to go trough and also listening about others.
Is it great lore-wise? Eh, surely could raise some brow. But we all tend to bend the lore/setting for the sake to have fun and give others room to have fun themselves. At least thats what im trying to follow by. And if i wouldnt like someone doing what i just described, i would try to ignore it till said character would get in my way. Live and let live, we all need a room to enjoy ourselves.

Evil elf on surface? Definitely doable with right approach but i cant say much about it as i havent tried it myself yet (im more a neutral person when it comes to mixing some bad stuff to character).

Thats my take on the idea of evil moon elf - told from experience of playing evil-ish moon elf.
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