Evil elves

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Waldo52
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Evil elves

Post by Waldo52 » Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:33 am

I'm thinking of making an evil moon elf. I know these are rare, but with free will and all, who knows? I have two questions:

Have any of you played evil elves (non drow) or come into contact with them? How do you handle such a thing while respecting the setting?

This one isn't a hill I'm willing to die on but has anyone played an evil elf that tried to get into the underdark? I know they're killed or enslaved on sight, but is it possible to play as a willing moon elf slave who resents the surface? Is it possible to petition for outcast status for a non human/non half orc if it is genuinely earned through months of role play?

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Itikar » Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:49 am

I have seen quite a good number of evil elven slaves in the Underdark in the last years playing.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by xf1313 » Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:02 am

I think you can earn outcast, best discuss with dm! Be re reputed warlock would give you that

I am playing an evil elf who pretends to be normal ones, on surface..making allies with evil guys when I meet them. Most of times it is like playing neutral
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Re: Evil elves

Post by D4wN » Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:05 am

The last evil Moon Elf in Andunor was a nerd but also pretty based.

But in all seriousness, it's definitely very difficult to get outcast as an elf and be tolerated in Andunor uncollared. Be ready for controversy and the potential of failing. If you pull it off, all the kudos to you.

Be ready for common occurrences like this one

Image

This is how you could earn your place in Andunor. A butter knife is recommended for added drama:

Image

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Arienette » Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:09 am

My impression is that there are a lot of evil elves on the surface. Just (usually) not in-your-face obvious evil, as I’m not summoning demons and undead.

To play a free elf in the UD? You will have to work for it. The character will likely have to (in addition to being a solid RPer) basically be the baddest kid on the block, willing and able to essentially kill anyone who takes issue with them until people just accept them and deal with it.

It’s not impossible and it has been done. But, similar to playing a monster on the surface, you should start off expecting to fail at ever gaining “acceptance”.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Amateur Hour » Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:26 am

Waldo52 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:33 am
is it possible to play as a willing moon elf slave who resents the surface?
I'll address this part specifically as a chronic elf player:

It absolutely is. A lot of elf slaves are considered 'willing' one way or another. But be prepared for the fact that the one thing that most surface elves hate more than dhaerrow-by-race are dhaerrow-by-choice.

(In case you don't know the lore, drow derives from the Elven word "dhaerrow" meaning "traitor". The Elven language-scramber does not differentiate the word for the race and the word for "traitor" in any other context, and elf RP leans into this heavily.)

(Edited a few times because evidently I cannot spell.)
Last edited by Amateur Hour on Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Ork » Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:26 am

Elves in the UD should be treated identically to goblins on the surface. The fact that this isn't enforced both in roleplay and through DM intervention is really bad form for the setting. Drow hate elves. Orcs hate elves. Duergar aren't happy with them. Goblins and hobgoblins hate elves.

Ban elves from the UD. Elven slaves break the setting.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:46 pm

Ork wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:26 am
Elves in the UD should be treated identically to goblins on the surface. The fact that this isn't enforced both in roleplay and through DM intervention is really bad form for the setting. Drow hate elves. Orcs hate elves. Duergar aren't happy with them. Goblins and hobgoblins hate elves.

Ban elves from the UD. Elven slaves break the setting.
To be fair, duergar hate everyone that isn't a duergar, and they hate most of each other, too. But they'll take anyone's gold, even a pale-skinned knife-ear. Orcs and elves hate each other but full-blooded orc isn't a thing on Arelith, reducing this to pity and scorn. Drow definitely hate other elves, but that's all the more reason to keep them as slaves and twist them/abuse them/use them against their kin for maximum emotional damage. Goblins and hobgoblins will do whatever they can get away with to anyone that isn't part of their tribal unit, they're just a little more incentivized against elves.

I think elven slave RP walks a very thin line that can easily be crossed into "WTF is going on?" territory... but if you're committed to the concept and willing to have your character "know their place" it's not impossible. You should make your peace with letting awful things happen to your character before you go though, in exchange for them getting to continue living. At worst you might expect to come out like Reek from Game of Thrones... at best you might come out one of The Unsullied before Danaerys. Neither life is objectively good, but they can make it work- have to, to survive.

I like that slave RP can exist, but I think there should probably be some much clearer rules about it - as is often pointed out, the atmosphere of Arelith doesn't match a table-top atmosphere with a small group of friends, and outside that environment I imagine a lot of it could be quite triggering or just unpalatable for many people for many reasons, even strictly following PG-13 standards.
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Re: Evil elves

Post by Ork » Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:55 pm

I voiced that argument because it is the same one used to keep goblins off the surface or from entering surface settlements. If it is true for goblins on the surface, it is also true for elves in Andunor.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:34 pm

Ork wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:55 pm
I voiced that argument because it is the same one used to keep goblins off the surface or from entering surface settlements. If it is true for goblins on the surface, it is also true for elves in Andunor.
I'm normally behind consistency of logic but aren't the circumstances different? Outcasts and Monsters aren't welcome on the surface, but non-monsters are welcome in Andunor as a trading hub. I don't really have a horse in the race, so to speak, but I am curious what mental setting stance we should be looking at this from.

If Andunor is a city that is meant to be a trade hub for anyone who shows up, does business, and doesn't cause trouble, including surface-folk, then I'd be inclined to disagree. If Andunor is only meant for monsters and outcasts, then I agree with you whole-heartedly.
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Re: Evil elves

Post by WanderingPoet » Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:00 pm

Ork wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:26 am
Elves in the UD should be treated identically to goblins on the surface. The fact that this isn't enforced both in roleplay and through DM intervention is really bad form for the setting. Drow hate elves. Orcs hate elves. Duergar aren't happy with them. Goblins and hobgoblins hate elves.

Ban elves from the UD. Elven slaves break the setting.
Slavery on the surface is very rare, so I'm curious - has anyone ever seen a goblin enslaved by a surfacer? Would they then be 'allowed' in surface settlements, because it's an enslaved goblin?

I suspect the slaver would be stabbed repeatedly anyways, but this would be a more accurate comparison. Non-slave moon elves I would agree shouldn't be chilling in the hub; any more than a goblin in Cordor. But an enslaved one?

Probably fine for the setting on both counts.

The reaction will be different though; as the goodly folk are more likely to stab slavers while Andunor more likely to embrace it. But nothing stops your drow from deciding to fight back against elven slavery because they want to see them all dead rather than enslaved - which would be analogous to surfacers not wanting monsters hanging around the surface at all.
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Re: Evil elves

Post by Whosdis » Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:18 pm

Ork wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:26 am
Elves in the UD should be treated identically to goblins on the surface. The fact that this isn't enforced both in roleplay and through DM intervention is really bad form for the setting. Drow hate elves. Orcs hate elves. Duergar aren't happy with them. Goblins and hobgoblins hate elves.

Ban elves from the UD. Elven slaves break the setting.
Evil Elves are obviously supported by the lore, even Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves listed a ridiculous amount of Evil Elves in its appendix on the various noble houses of Myth Drannor. Where do you reckon they should end up? Andunor for the outcasts except these particular outcasts?

Hell, you had Sarya ruminating an alliance with (admittedly Vhaeraunite) Drow, who she considered "degenerate" but with aligning goals. If you want Andunor to be Skullport, evil Elves should be more tolerated and there be less stringently Lolthite practices.

But these are just my takes on things.

(Alternatively, maybe Myon shouldn't have a meta anti-Evil Mythal.)

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Ork » Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:46 pm

Whosdis wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:18 pm
Ork wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:26 am
Elves in the UD should be treated identically to goblins on the surface. The fact that this isn't enforced both in roleplay and through DM intervention is really bad form for the setting. Drow hate elves. Orcs hate elves. Duergar aren't happy with them. Goblins and hobgoblins hate elves.

Ban elves from the UD. Elven slaves break the setting.
Evil Elves are obviously supported by the lore, even Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves listed a ridiculous amount of Evil Elves in its appendix on the various noble houses of Myth Drannor. Where do you reckon they should end up? Andunor for the outcasts except these particular outcasts?

Hell, you had Sarya ruminating an alliance with (admittedly Vhaeraunite) Drow, who she considered "degenerate" but with aligning goals. If you want Andunor to be Skullport, evil Elves should be more tolerated and there be less stringently Lolthite practices.

But these are just my takes on things.

(Alternatively, maybe Myon shouldn't have a meta anti-Evil Mythal.)
You can play an evil elf. There are plenty of evil elves. The reason I feel elves shouldn't be permitted in Andunor is the same reason goblins shouldn't be permitted in Cordor. I'm sure there are players in our community that could do it justice on both fronts, but the vast majority don't.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Flower Power » Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:01 pm

Whosdis wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:18 pm
(Alternatively, maybe Myon shouldn't have a meta anti-Evil Mythal.)
You won't hear many arguments coming from the Myon crowd. The most ardent and vocal Mythal haters have always been Myon-players; I'm sad that the Forest-side bit is still active, despite the Guldorand-side bit not being.

Evil elves on the surface work best when they can take an unhappy twist on elven culture, but not so much that it puts them outside of it; Elves are, in general, a very murder-happy race canonically - and they're real big on policing their own.
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Re: Evil elves

Post by Whosdis » Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:09 pm

Ork wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:46 pm
Whosdis wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:18 pm
Ork wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:26 am
Elves in the UD should be treated identically to goblins on the surface. The fact that this isn't enforced both in roleplay and through DM intervention is really bad form for the setting. Drow hate elves. Orcs hate elves. Duergar aren't happy with them. Goblins and hobgoblins hate elves.

Ban elves from the UD. Elven slaves break the setting.
Evil Elves are obviously supported by the lore, even Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves listed a ridiculous amount of Evil Elves in its appendix on the various noble houses of Myth Drannor. Where do you reckon they should end up? Andunor for the outcasts except these particular outcasts?

Hell, you had Sarya ruminating an alliance with (admittedly Vhaeraunite) Drow, who she considered "degenerate" but with aligning goals. If you want Andunor to be Skullport, evil Elves should be more tolerated and there be less stringently Lolthite practices.

But these are just my takes on things.

(Alternatively, maybe Myon shouldn't have a meta anti-Evil Mythal.)
You can play an evil elf. There are plenty of evil elves. The reason I feel elves shouldn't be permitted in Andunor is the same reason goblins shouldn't be permitted in Cordor. I'm sure there are players in our community that could do it justice on both fronts, but the vast majority don't.
You know what, I think we fundamentally agree now, we just come to different conclusions IE: Blatant "No Elves" versus "Weed out the bozos".

Of course, I do think Elven outcasts in Andunor should be a possibility, on the auspices they'll have to play it smart, play it strong, or play it obsequiously, else they accept getting their excrement kicked in. Duvain comes to mind. Elven slaves (and I say that both acknowledging my playing my own tenure as one and with no judgement cast towards the OP, who seems to have a more actually serious concept in mind) do tend to be dreadful, and perhaps removing them from the pool of possible slaves is probably warranted.

And I say that as someone who likes the idea of such a heinous practice being portrayed in roleplay ( I like dark, gritty themes), but lamentably it tends to be so often corrupted into the usual accusations about slaves, and I imagine it's quite disheartening to look at the system when the weeds outnumber the crops.
Flower Power wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:01 pm
Whosdis wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:18 pm
(Alternatively, maybe Myon shouldn't have a meta anti-Evil Mythal.)
You won't hear many arguments coming from the Myon crowd. The most ardent and vocal Mythal haters have always been Myon-players; I'm sad that the Forest-side bit is still active, despite the Guldorand-side bit not being.

Evil elves on the surface work best when they can take an unhappy twist on elven culture, but not so much that it puts them outside of it; Elves are, in general, a very murder-happy race canonically - and they're real big on policing their own.
Oh, it certainly fits in the lore, though I find evil Elven lore to be quite fascinating, but woefully, woefully underutilized. I do not believe the settlement system supports people to be a fifth column, unless they're so secretive as to be non-issue. At this point it's almost a "throw a dog a bone" where even a porthole in the middle of bumble- nowhere would be outstanding.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by xanrael » Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:02 pm

I think the biggest issue with a race living in an spot antithetical to it has more to do with everyone else being less interested in respecting the setting than the specific player's failure to RP.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:01 pm

Waldo52 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:33 am
I'm thinking of making an evil moon elf. I know these are rare, but with free will and all, who knows? I have two questions:

Have any of you played evil elves (non drow) or come into contact with them? How do you handle such a thing while respecting the setting?

This one isn't a hill I'm willing to die on but has anyone played an evil elf that tried to get into the underdark? I know they're killed or enslaved on sight, but is it possible to play as a willing moon elf slave who resents the surface? Is it possible to petition for outcast status for a non human/non half orc if it is genuinely earned through months of role play?
Haya just a setting reply here

1) Never played one myself, but seen a lot of very awsome evil elves played, and they're definatly a thing in lore! Heck, just yesterday we had a interview with Eliane Cunningham, who wrote the ElfShadow and Elfsong books, which feature an evil moon elf, Elaith Craulenbar. I recommend you take a gander at those if you want some inspiration.

2) This can and has been done, but fair warning it may be rather difficult. Ultimatly you're playing the racial enemy of someone, trying to fit in with that area. Granted first as a slave, then (if you commit in game acts henous enough) as an outcast. Or heck, you could just jump streight to being a normal elf, do stuff for the drow, then get the outcast token. The 'slave' part might allow you to be more accepted, but it also has it's own large drawbacks.
But it's probably not going to be an easy road, and you shouldn't expect your elf to ever 'fit in' with all the underdark community as a whole. Most likely- if you work hard and play your hand right, they'll be accepted by a group of folk, because they've proved themselves, but others will always distrust them on principle.
So yeah, it can be done, but it is possibly a rough journey.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Dachlatte » Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:49 pm

Elaith Craulnober was my inspiration many, many years ago and that inspired character is still kicking. 😃

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Royal Blood » Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:20 pm

I think when like considering elven lore or personalities the biggest thing to think about is just how ... Long they've been around. Diving into like sub-lore about specific events kinda gives you a good idea of how an elf, generally 'lives' and what experiences they're plausible to have. I think it's fairly open-ended broadly speaking or it can be as niche as you prefer.

I think the long years of elves open the door to a lot of opportunities for evil. And I think, frankly, elven culture on its own could easily be perceived as 'evil' in the eyes of outsiders which is an aspect I enjoy portraying. What is 'evil' in the eyes of humans is just part of life for elves. The perspective changes when you've been around for centuries.

OOC wise, I think it's important for an evil elf to have a well developed back story with strong supporting narratives that draw on like lore so that it's understandable to a player and it has roots that can be uncovered and comprehended. I think the best kinda 'evil' for the surface is evil that comes with undertones of 'good' or is evil that is hard to see. The Underdark largely covers the evil for the sake of evil aspect!

TLDR: Surface evil is best when subtle. Relying on lore is a good way to develop a strong character. That same lore can be used as points that make your character relatable. Underdark Evil, as a surface elf? Personally I would avoid it. I think it's a story platform that is used often, maybe too often. If your character ENDS UP in the Underdark? Perfect. Now you have a tangible backstory that was developed naturally and not manufactored.

Avoid the super evil qualities like undead or planar demon/devil summoning. That stuff is difficult for any goodly character to rationalize if you wanna be on the surface. On the other hand, doing these things in the UD isn't a free pass or an automatic i'm evil card.

I think black archers represent a good view of an 'evil' elf. Often violent extremists they're 'goals' are good but the execution of getting to those goals is often murky.
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Re: Evil elves

Post by Whosdis » Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:53 pm

I do not think Shevaresh is a good example, as the fanatical murderhobos that violently opposes evil is a staple of Lawful Good on plenty of NWN servers. They may as well be Paladins. I would lean more into the Paradise Lost perspective, especially Aryvandaar. This is kind of mirrored with Vhaeraun reaching out to Lolthites "Why are we still suffering in the Underdark? I have the answers." Which rather further works out that he has a pan-Elven supremacy side that can cooperate with the Eldreth Veluuthra.

Really the only Seldarine God which kinda, sorta is good to go off of is the Lone Wolf, and that would be taken with a very hands-off approach to faith.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by La Villa Strangiato » Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:38 pm

I think if you're gonna play an evil elf they should have a distinctly different Vibe than "drow but they like trees". Elven culture is very close-knit and collectivist, plus is usually very big on destroying the undead, fiends, etc. Drow are very used to casual cruelty, backstabbing, generally evil stuff, while an evil elf might not have grown up so inured to that culture and even if they're "accepted" in Andunor, they might still feel like an outsider who's unable to relate to most drow and their mindset.

Which isn't to say they can't be BROS4LYFE with drow (my drow, in their time, have been genuine friends with some evil elves in Andunor), it just means that a different culture should be shown in subtle ways by their interactions with cosmic evil (like animation of the dead, fiends) in the setting.
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Re: Evil elves

Post by Preserver » Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:18 pm

Also adding: you can play an Evil Elf that is not necessarily an evil facet of Elven society, yet just is their own individual with a certain evil proclivity due to their story, yet with the elven flavour to them.

There are plenty of metropolis-sized cities in the setting from which an Elf that had very little to do with pure Elven culture could come from, having developed their own brand of evil and using the Elven aspect of the character to drive some point that you find interesting.

How would a creature as long lived as an Elf embody, manifest, or just experience certain types of Evil?
How would they consider their relations with the Elven culture when meeting it in full?
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Re: Evil elves

Post by fading » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:25 pm

Preserver beat me to it. Everyone keeps hammering on the idea of subtle evil, and utilizing the darker aspects of elven culture - which is perfectly fine, and it could make for a great character, but I very much dislike putting all elves into a box where they can't overstep traditional elven culture. An elf is first and foremost an individual, and individuals are a diverse bunch. Not all elves are raised strictly among elves and their culture and not all elves embrace their culture, some might even actively dislike it (think the type of ex-christians who despise christianity).

And even among elves, people are really underselling the dark underbelly of their culture. The Eldreth Veluuthra are genocidal elf supremacists, House Dlardrageth literally summoned and interbred with demons, and so on.

So, if you want to be more explicit evil, there's nothing wrong with that. Although do expect repercussions in character if you're too blatant, the bulk of elf culture is very much good aligned. But hey, you don't have to be a part of that community, if you don't want to be.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Whosdis » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:16 am

fading wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:25 pm
Not all elves are raised strictly among elves and their culture and not all elves embrace their culture, some might even actively dislike it (think the type of ex-christians who despise christianity).

...


So, if you want to be more explicit evil, there's nothing wrong with that. Although do expect repercussions in character if you're too blatant, the bulk of elf culture is very much good aligned. But hey, you don't have to be a part of that community, if you don't want to be.
This sums it up beautifully. Moon Elves(especially) being so cosmopolitan, it makes sense that many that are raised in human-centric areas wouldn't even have strong Elven ideals to begin with, it just so happens that in inter-Elven conflict that the Sun Elves end up being the mantle of more evil and supremacist means, aside from the rebellion against the Elvencourt by the Moon Elven Starym members. I played a Moon Elf like that quite a long time ago before I moved onto more reactionary Sun Elves.

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Re: Evil elves

Post by Waldo52 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:20 am

It seems a number of you think the willing slave underdark dweller angle would be extremely difficult to actually pull off. This is kind of demoralizing and the enormous effort needed to just exist down there without dying makes the whole character concept seem a little too ambitious for now.

Still a really cool thread with a lot of insights into elven psychology and underdark customs.

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