Is Andunor Needed Anymore

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Royal Blood
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Royal Blood » Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:14 am

I gotta say I am on the other side of this.

I like that Andunor is compact. Quick reasons why:

1: It forces resolutions and story progression. You can't just leave and ignore people the story in some capacity is going to be forced forward at some point.
2: Easy to find people for RP. Easy to be involved in city RP.
3: Forces factions to be involved with each other.

I've played some wanted characters in Andunor before. It did eventually lead to a confrontation in the hub and I simply pivoted to doing things in the shadowvar trade post, Dis, Saltspar or the upper trade post. There are so many options.

Maybe the server is moving to a place where a divided Andunor is more appealing but I think we're shooting ourselves in the foot. It's just like the Devil's Table. I loved that there were 3 equal rulers in the table. A significant amount of time went into engaging roleplay to ICly manipulate other councillors, back stab each other, and consolidate power.

Now what is the devil's table? It's more efficient sure. But boring. Super boring.

Keep cramming players together. Make the server like mechanics push players to interact and engage one another. I think the server should find more ways to create encounters rather than spreading people out.

Regarding Hub Peace Keepers: I've said this before. The DMs need to decide what they want to do. They keep changing their rulings. One day NPCs are wet paper bags and they tell you that's the way it is. The next day they're getting involved in politics and raining out of the sky on top of players to force narratives around.

The DM stance seems to be don't pvp in the hub but what are the peacekeepers going to do really? I know the DMs cannot always be present everytime. I get it, but there's no consequences after the fact. If I, as a DM, knew player A slaughtered people in the hub. When I DID have time to play I'd have the peace keepers run him down and beat him up and tell him to eat rocks for awhile until he can come back to the hub.

But the DMs can't decide if NPCs are part of the environment or not.

Alternative idea, allow PCs to become peace keepers. Let the players dish out hub justice as they already are. It's just official.

Alternative alternative idea. Andunor RP keeps pushing for a city warchief. Establish a city wide leader that all districts can vote in. Then establish the peace keepers as a similar role to the cordor guard or bendir Hawkins etc.

Each district can run itself but the city is led by an elected warchief or whatever you want to call it. Maybe the city warchief has to be a current district leader. The political RP around the Andunor City 'King' I think would be thrilling. Especially if that 'King' needs the city districts to pass things.
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Edens_Fall » Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:23 pm

What if we set up Andunor like Guldorand? Ruled by a council of NPCs, with a basic charter of what's allowed and not. Each district is already ruled by an NPC factions. Just have them combine and set down basic laws that cover all districts.

Nothing as deep as Gulds Charter of course, just something to serve as a baseline. This would also provide a center point for players and DMs to interact for citywide issues.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by magistrasa » Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:34 pm

I'm not gonna lie, I think the whole weird relationship between the Council and the player governments is a big reason why we don't see much investment in Guldorand. It's been an interesting experiment, and it's certainly created some unique opportunities, but I'd be wary of basing any future settlement dynamics around its design.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Edens_Fall » Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:37 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:34 pm
I'm not gonna lie, I think the whole weird relationship between the Council and the player governments is a big reason why we don't see much investment in Guldorand. It's been an interesting experiment, and it's certainly created some unique opportunities, but I'd be wary of basing any future settlement dynamics around its design.
That's true for Guldorand, but Andunor would be a much simpler beast. There's only three that would be council members, four if you add Hub Master, and none of them care about 80% of the issues that give Guld trouble.

I see it more like Sibayad and the Merchant League it how it would work.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by magistrasa » Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:41 pm

Edens_Fall wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:37 pm
That's true for Guldorand, but Andunor would be a much simpler beast. There's only three that would be council members, four if you add Hub Master, and none of them care about 80% of the issues that give Guld trouble.

I see it more like Sibayad and the Merchant League it how it would work.
Maybe I'm being a little hasty with my knee-jerk reaction and haven't thought hard enough about your idea. How do you think this would affect roleplay in the Underdark, and the dynamics within Andunor?

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Edens_Fall » Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:09 pm

If the "charter" for lack of a better word is kept simple, but clearly outlines the Staffs design for Andunor I think it would save alot of headache for players.

Once more, it would also give a body for the staff to act through and a location for players to bring IG issues rather then either reporting everything via Forums or Kill Bashing thier way to a conclusion.

PC Has a problem thats covered by the city Charter? Take it to the council.

Staff wants to change direction of RP in Andunor? Council makes an announcement

DM wants to run a city wide plot? Council declares emergency.

Unlike Guldorand however, where the founders control and micro manage everything, the Andunor council only get involved when the charter is broken. Otherwise the city and districts run as they currently do. With total player control.

The trick is to keep the charter simple, basic, and clear. We have learned what doesn't work from Guldorand. We should be able to improve upon the idea here.

Also if we really want to get fancy, the three districts can elect a player to sit on council of be there proxy. Though this position and election would likely lead to until drama and conflict for good or ill.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by MRFTW » Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:43 pm

Players as peacekeepers would be awesome.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Royal Blood » Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:53 pm

I think the pursuit of drama and conflict should be the point. For players not interested in that they can avoid participation in like city leadership elections etc. In my opinion it's easy to stay neutral.

I agree Andunor doesn't need a hard and fast set of rules if it migrated to having an overall city leader with each of the districts managing their own affairs internally.

Heck, I'd even say the districts ought to be able to exile the Andunor leader if they wanted! Vice versa.

City speaking though I really feel like you can accomplish everything you would in Andunor by using Dis, Shadowvar, Upper Trade Post and Saltspar. Those are the 'alternative' settlements they just don't have elections which I think is fine.
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Eira » Mon Jul 18, 2022 5:11 pm

Giving more players a full time unpaid job seems like a disaster in the making.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by IanPatron » Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:45 pm

I think we should keep Andunor as it is...

and simply add more settlements. REAL settlements, that can be controlled by players. Saltspar and Tradepost are not actual settlements the same way Bendir Dale is. They should be increased in size and made into actual settlements with its own leaders.

I realize Andunor is important as a hub of cultures, and I get why it isn't run by a PC. Andunor provides a safe place for any and all races in the UD.

What's missing are PC run places that are NOT safe for everyone.

Now mind you, I fully agreed with Andunor's creation when the server numbers were low and settlements needed to be condensed because a divided server wasn't wanted.

Today is a very different story. We have more numbers, and more server capacity.

Not only that but race based(NOT race restricted) settlements provide incentive to create new characters of said race.

Also more settlements would provide added intrigue in regards to trading and UD/Surface interactions.

I think there's more opportunities if we have more resources, frankly put.

Rather than have another HUGE change to the server, start with something small. Increase the size and scope of Saltspar. That way, if it turns out I was wrong and Saltspar is unused(which I doubt will happen), then you don't have to make sweeping changes back to the way it was.

If it turns out I was right, and making Saltspar larger and politically autonomous works, then move on to the Tradepost(and please call it something else as Andunor is already known as the trade hub).

I have faith it will happen eventually because if nothing else, Arelith evolves.

It's only a matter of time as I see it.

Ahh one more thing. Andunor will have access to something no other settlement in the UD will have, and that will keep people going there even if other cities exist. It can all be summed up in one word: Slaves.

As long as slave trade exists only in Andunor, people will go there. Not to mention its many stores.

If more settlements were available(to control), people yes, would leave Andunor. BUT, they'd visit. Also this would open up opportunities for many other players.

For example:

If there was a Lolthite city built, and all the Lolthite drow would obviously flock there, it would open up the Devil's Table to be run by a different faction. Maybe even Non-Lolthite drow. Or maybe the Non-Lolthite drow would move into that city instead. Hell, maybe kobolds.

More space opens up more ideas to be RP'd.

So I don't think Andunor should be removed, I just think more should be added to what is pre existing to make it something to vie over.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Apothys » Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:46 pm

+1 to everything you just said.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Skibbles » Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:03 am

Devil's Table has been owned by Non-Llothite drow in the past, non drow too, more than once, and kobolds just won it the other day.

Don't forget there are other timezones at play too here. I'm sure during the US daytime weekend the city is packed, but in my timezone and playtime there's a fraction of that amount. Dividing this fraction is going to be quite unhelpful for other players on the other side of the world.

Not to mention the slave trade does almost nothing to bring people or interest in Sibayad. I highly doubt a slave clamper would inflate numbers in any meaningful way - especially since most slaves are made on creation and just go whereever other characters are, just like every other character does.
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by xf1313 » Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:41 am

Sibayad, well, I think the main issue there is slaves are not popular on surface at all?

People go there for writ and they leave, shame, I really liked the bath house
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Irongron » Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:14 pm

There are many reasons why I decided to make Andunor, and replace what was formally something like 7 separate racial settlements, every one of them dead. I didn't just do this because players were low, but also because I felt that approach was actually the cause that they were low.

Racially segregated settlements are generally stagnant, deeply boring & insular and only really lend themselves to a PvP race war narrative which is stressful for players and DMs alike.

This may be controversial but I think Udos was absolutely awful, and the culture and RP it fostered damaging to not just to the UD, but the server culture as a whole.

Right now, I'm dealing with yet another UD based player drama, once again based in repetitive vendetta PvP that is having me possibly rethink the entire server's PvP rules.

But the UD loves to fight, and I personally find two of the most basic, unimaginative themes for pvp (indeed RP in general) are race and religion; I will definitely not add a llothite drow settlement, and would much rather see the races of the Underdark come together in a shared setting.

I'm not totally against a small village using the settlement system elsewhere in the UD, to be used by whichever player group can seize the most influence there, but I don't currently feel it really needed at all, or would offer much to the server. I'd be more inclined to remake the slum caverns adjacent to the sewers as a new, ultra poor district.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:16 pm

Irongron wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:14 pm
I'd be more inclined to remake the slum caverns adjacent to the sewers as a new, ultra poor district.
dooooo iiiit

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Retratserif » Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:18 pm

I have 1 year on Arelith. All UD.

About how centered Andunor is...

1: I do not think forces resolutions and story progression. You can't just leave. Some characters ignore others storyline and force their own on others. Typically either destroying a character story or them just leaving all together. Known at least twenty awesome players to quit the server over unwanted and unavoidable drama.

2: Currently there are not many options to be completely neutral. I understand some characters pull it off fine, though there is a lot of OOC is behind that. Players that have a ton of experience and OOC allies rarely are targeted. Even more rare to see two larger factions go at it. Mostly it's kill off the new ones before they get started.

3: Connected to #2, I do not find it easy for new players. Those that did not plan out things, or have a bunch of friends already established. Having been killed and/or threatened before level 4 on multiple characters does not set an inviting theme.

Having the main hang out directly beside the main portal, messenger, and writmaster is a recipe for disaster. Literally no way to avoid those that simply want to bash others.

4. District rulers seem to play their role outside of the district... As in thinking they rule the city. Oppressing those they choose too. No RP needed. Abusing influence to socially exiled and shame anyone, for anything, with no prior RP. This seems to be a reoccurring theme. More places to live, that are not politically driven may help. Although is currently rule/player issue.

5. Not enough premium guild halls, that cannot be evicted from. Currently a majority of the premium properties are being held tight. If someone gains one of these properties... It's either eviction or harassment until they leave. For the properties that are eviction free, quarter breaking and harassment. More options may fix this, but it's mostly a rule/player issue.


There are other concerns as well.

Temple of Lolth is in a district and is a guild Hall, that could have limited access to players that have been forced out of the district. This creates an issue where it's under used in the Lore for religious use and used for faction use.

Upgrade current Temple to have rooms to be more inline with the Temple of Lolth.

Separate politics and religious property. This was characters cannot be restricted from accessing their temple of choice.

Some of the key features are in districts. Bank and vaults are in Sharps. If exiled, they would have no vault access at all.

I understand many of the issues could be rule/player issues... As long as everyone is being funneled into one area... It will always be an issue.

On the navel issues.

2 ships... Major issue. And only one primary dock. Saltspar could have a few ships. Greyport could have a few, to at least support the Dread. Then Treadstone have a few.

Currently, from what I have listened in on... It's almost every ship in the Sea vs the Dread. The other tiny ship does not even count in ship pvp.


Due to the environment and current status of the city of Andunor, I have found it much better, just about anywhere else. Better RP. More justified reactions. Less OOC issues.

I have found it nearly impossible to play out a story on 4 characters in Andunor. I have zero faith in district political system as it is.


I agree that more cities in the Underdark would be helpful. As in the themes..
Race based could work, but should have minor blends.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Naghast » Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:50 pm

Image

Just feeling legally obliged to mention
the companion (smaller UD vessel) is claustrophobically small - even ALONE you may have problems navigating it. two ppl already bump into one another very often.

And it's required crew size is... 3.
I believe Sencliff's squid, a vessel that was like, at least four times companion's size, had required crew size of 2.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:10 pm

Irongron wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:14 pm


Right now, I'm dealing with yet another UD based player drama, once again based in repetitive vendetta PvP that is having me possibly rethink the entire server's PvP rules.

Do it, but do it in a way that addresses all the flaws in the rules and not just a band-aid that sort of attempts to stop the circle wars. I would spend an hour laying out what I think they should be, but I think everyone knows what that will amount to, a lot of wasted time on my part. So instead I will just point out the most important bits; The sanctity of the setting should trump folks desire to murder another player, and if there are real consequences to both losing -and- winning in pvp, people will be more hesitant to jump into it over frivolous things and will begin to treat it in a more realistic manner. If you address those two things in a way that fits what you guys want out of pvp, you have a good chance of solving so much more than the "repetitive vendetta pvp" you set out to stop.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by HeyLadyOfDecay » Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:06 pm

Irongron wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:14 pm


Right now, I'm dealing with yet another UD based player drama, once again based in repetitive vendetta PvP that is having me possibly rethink the entire server's PvP rules.

Just add "Any RP that attacks a character in a harmful way, Leading to possible PvP hunts or otherwise heavily disrupting the target current RP without the target having provoked a need for the attack must beforehand spoken into an agreement with said target"

Or something along those lines.

This will require the -notell command to no longer being able to notell the entire server (wich would be great tbh)
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Richrd » Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:49 pm

Retratserif wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:18 pm
3: Connected to #2, I do not find it easy for new players. Those that did not plan out things, or have a bunch of friends already established. Having been killed and/or threatened before level 4 on multiple characters does not set an inviting theme.
Look, I can only make assumptions about how that happened. But here's my 2 cents after having played an Andunor PC to mid-teens.
If you are a new PC don't act like the big man around the house. Especially with how anyone you meet is most likely going to be a geared up level 30 gigachad you should just do the most reasonable thing.
Stay low, quiet and in your own corner until you get a chance to establish yourself. Unless of course you play a suicidal PC. Then sure, go ahead. Insult that drowess who has her own clique of level 30 chads licking her feet after every step.


Now about the main topic here itself. Andunor is fine the way it is.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Retratserif » Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:11 pm

"repetitive vendetta pvp"

This would be the proper description, if it actually has some RP behind it.

I don't think the rules are the problem. They could use a little tweaking if the DM's feel that way. I feel it's the ones that skirt the rules are at fault. Creating a no way out scenarios, while refusing to recognize victims intent. And/or pushing others to do the dirty work through IG/OOC means with no reason or RP to justify it.

We have all seen multiple factions destroyed from only rumors pubically blasted. Even though no PvP or RP took place. The damage was done. Players quit.

Unfounded destructive and negative behavior pubically announced for the sole purpose to ruin or remove characters/factions with no prior RP should be looked into. Especially when repeated, gaining the same results of players quitting.

This is one of the main reasons I think more cities, ships, temples, guild halls and non district based areas would help the Underdark a whole lot. Allowing some breathing room.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Algol » Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:27 pm

Retratserif wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:11 pm

We have all seen multiple factions destroyed from only rumors pubically blasted. Even though no PvP or RP took place. The damage was done. Players quit.

Unfounded destructive and negative behavior pubically announced for the sole purpose to ruin or remove characters/factions with no prior RP should be looked into. Especially when repeated, gaining the same results of players quitting.
IC rumors and slander are perfectly fine tools to utilize, and in itself an act of interacting with the said group in my opinion. If someone can make up something about a character and manage to convince other characters about it, it has potential to generate some interesting RP.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by -XXX- » Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:28 pm

HeyLadyOfDecay wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:06 pm
Just add "Any RP that attacks a character in a harmful way, Leading to possible PvP hunts or otherwise heavily disrupting the target current RP without the target having provoked a need for the attack must beforehand spoken into an agreement with said target"

Or something along those lines.

This will require the -notell command to no longer being able to notell the entire server (wich would be great tbh)
That ammendment would lead to a rabbit hole of some impressive mental gymnastics.
-notells are a good thing! We should keep -notells.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by TurningLeaf » Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:31 pm

I like Andunor. The Hub itself is odd its kind of like a bar set up in a warehouse. It gets the job done but I feel like the whole middle hub/wheels could be better somehow.

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