Is Andunor Needed Anymore

OOC General Discussion

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs

Locked
Grunf
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:50 pm

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Grunf » Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:19 pm

Playing on Arelith over the decade, even managed as a player some od those racial settlements from before....and no..please dont return that back, even as my best RPs come from those times, OVERALL was bad on many-many levels, and it hurted oocly ppl more than anything compared to the worse of Andunor.

I would rather see Slums and Tradeport developed, and maybe more land-deeds around Underdark...only if numbers go up even more, and as a experiment.

Also, its not about settlements but the effort ppl put in RP to make others to enjoy.

User avatar
Edens_Fall
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 1065
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:45 am
Location: North America

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Edens_Fall » Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:21 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:22 am
If fighting over an island becomes more meaningful than fighting over like Cordor, then I'm super hesitant. We should be pushing for a day when Andunor can make Cordor a puppet state, not having two navies engage in some twinkling match over holding newly added zones.
To be fair, fighting over Cordor or any surface settlement currently has already has no meaning. Evil PCs (who are open at least), Necromancers, and monsters will never hold a surface town either due to Staff decree or playerbase pushback (voters unit for the election or axehold accords KB you back into the underdark where you below evil doer!). Heck, the wife of Cordor’s King is a Banite and those PCs are chased out or hunted from Cordor lands as it is. Hell, settlements can't even war with each other by DM decree.

Nothing can change, if nothing changes ya know? Thus why I feel there is a strong desire by most to keep the status quo of the surface in order to avoid OOC drama. As such we must look to new ideas if we don't want to affect the current standing.

Instead how about we allow Arelith's settlements a chance at colonizing? Let's add a large island or two that ANY faction or settlement can gain control of for conflict? This allows a meaningful goal for players to work towards and keeps the rest of the server in the static stasis we desire.

Win, win right?

Good Character
Posts: 898
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:37 pm

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Good Character » Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:33 pm

To address the original point of this topic, I think despite the larger and continually increasing playerbase I think Andunor (ignoring its districts) has been a brilliant project. The close-knit nature of shops (especially the temporary ones), writ givers, portal, etc. have been ingenious.

I certainly agree to a degree that the Underdark needs to invest in more culturally-specific (which usually relates to race) areas, but we need to maintain the same concept I mentioned upon - close-knit, accessible areas. What I'm saying is that the districts (Sharps, Devil's, Greyport, and Treadstone) need more emphasis on what each aligns with.

Another caveat, though, is I think the percentage of the issue with the districts remains with the players and their willingness to mold the districts.

For an example, Greyport and Treadstone are fantastically designed; Greyport a bustling trade hub with noticeably duergar influence while Treadstone is a grueling slum that demands back-breaking work. Greyport has dwindled away from its peak, and Treadstone isn't technically a mechanical district.

Now the Sharps and Devil's have no real identity, especially with Houses Claddath and Freth just feeling like they add zero influence aside from being guards. I think this needs storytelling/developmental help from staff.

As much as I hated the bloated amount of drow houses constantly warring with zero purpose in the 2019-2021 era, it really helped see groups and races with aligning ideologies come together just to survive. This is exactly how and why gangs come together in real life - desperate attempts to secure safety.

tl;dr: Short answer is we don't need changes to the environment. It's an issue with players having no reason to diversify which is why we have seen a marked reduction of groups in the UD.

xf1313
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:39 am
Location: China

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by xf1313 » Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:46 am

Arienette wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:05 pm
[
A large majority of conflict RP and PvP comes from "do/dont do this or I will harm you", and this is totally natural and expected.

Leave or die.
Become my prisoner or die.
Free the prisoner or die.
Give me your valuables or die.
Stop trying to rob me or die.
Stop running past me to ninja the loot or die.
Unsummon the thing or die.
Get your hand out of my pocket or die.
Ad nauseum

The major problems seem to stem from one of the two of the following, or perhaps both:

1. The "losing" side refuses to give any ground no matter how frequently or how severely they get beaten.
2. The "winning" side is unreasonable. They make unreasonable demands. Reasonable would be "stop operating as a crew in the Slum, its ours now". Unreasonable would be "Leave Andunor". The very most unreasonable thing, and I think a certain rulebreak, is for the "winning" side to keep up the pressure in the hopes the other side will roll/shelf/quit. Thats toxic and bullying and Not Nice.

This is a player issue, not an alignment or Andunor issue. Step one is to hope our fellow players can be reasonable people and play their characters in a reasonable way. If that fails, we should alert DM staff IMO.
I can sympathise, imagine rp to high level, dedicated, wasted so much time and finally built something. Everyone is going through a planned storyline but that got cut short because someone else has something they want and there’s pvp war. Those demands do not always work out. What if someone’s character just do not want to submit, they really just...don’t. It can be avoided before the conflict even initiate, just ask : Hi, I want to start some conflict and if we win I’ll take ABCDE and you can do FGHIK as possible outcome. If the other side do not like it, do not even start it.

Some people will outrightly hate my suggestion and consider that is not ‘rp enough’ maybe. Treating the game world more like real means things happen unexpectedly. Thou it is not against any rule yet, those ‘do or die’ demands out of the blue always trigger negative feelings from the other party. Something like “Why would they have everything they want because they win the pvp? Maybe not this time!

I love Andunor hub, but...it is getting very packed.
Wild-elf Druid Laurifin Goldenleaf
Drow shadowlord Lomin Nightshade

User avatar
HeyLadyOfDecay
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:18 pm
Location: Andunor

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by HeyLadyOfDecay » Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:05 am

xf1313 wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:46 am
I love Andunor hub, but...it is getting very packed.
Yeah, on that note, complete 360, can we make pvping surfacers in the hub the norm again?
Lot of;

Hey, a surfacer. *makes a comment about it* then get several comments protecting the surfacer.

Edit: bit of a reverse wharftown issue :lol:

And make outcast a normal reward.

Believe it or not, This can actually cause a small relief in Andunor.
Lyann Reyer. Back by demand.
(Mass grave of other characters)

User avatar
Eira
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 539
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:59 am
Location: Denmark

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Eira » Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:34 am

HeyLadyOfDecay wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:05 am
xf1313 wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:46 am
I love Andunor hub, but...it is getting very packed.
Yeah, on that note, complete 360, can we make pvping surfacers in the hub the norm again?
Lot of;

Hey, a surfacer. *makes a comment about it* then get several comments protecting the surfacer.
If you want to kill surfacers without people stopping you, how about being cunning about it? Draw them off in private. Lead them into an ambush. Manipulate them into attacking you first. Haze them. Drive them off. Blackmail them! Use them! Make story!

But if you want to go "hey, a surfacer" ! killbash then, well, no.

Andunor is a trade city. Andunor wants visitors to trade. Andunor does not care about their origin. Andunor won't care if you are smart about how you kill them. Andunor will care if you disrupt the trade simply because a trader smells like sunlight.

Surfacers have migrated to the UD. It's a valid story. But forcing them to prove they're good and proper evil by going "hey surfacer! Prove you deserve to live here by enslaving an elf!" crushes any sense of nuance. And things like that have happened.

If people stop you from doing something ingame, the solution is not found offgame. There is more to evil than black and white red vs blue if they're not holding my hand let's pvp.

I exist to describe the world around us.

Akorae

Keth'ym Evanara - wandering better paths
Veriel Xyrdan - married and happy
Reena Welkins - Dead

Discord: eighra


User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by -XXX- » Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:00 am

HeyLadyOfDecay wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:05 am
Yeah, on that note, complete 360, can we make pvping surfacers in the hub the norm again?
Lot of;

Hey, a surfacer. *makes a comment about it* then get several comments protecting the surfacer.
Believe it or not that actually serves to protect indigenous species.

xf1313
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:39 am
Location: China

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by xf1313 » Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:07 am

HeyLadyOfDecay wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:05 am
xf1313 wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:46 am
I love Andunor hub, but...it is getting very packed.
Yeah, on that note, complete 360, can we make pvping surfacers in the hub the norm again?
Lot of;

Hey, a surfacer. *makes a comment about it* then get several comments protecting the surfacer.

Edit: bit of a reverse wharftown issue :lol:

And make outcast a normal reward.

Believe it or not, This can actually cause a small relief in Andunor.
Not Andunor, other place that is not a trade city, but a settlement of monsters and monsters only. Make it clear that stepping in means death/becoming slaves. Some place only real monsters can go (not even outcast or slaves). Give a chance for characters that loath surface races to play out.
Wild-elf Druid Laurifin Goldenleaf
Drow shadowlord Lomin Nightshade

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by -XXX- » Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:37 am

xf1313 wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:07 am
Not Andunor, other place that is not a trade city, but a settlement of monsters and monsters only. Make it clear that stepping in means death/becoming slaves. Some place only real monsters can go (not even outcast or slaves). Give a chance for characters that loath surface races to play out.
You mean Udos? You want Udos? Even there impregnable gates had to be added to protect the endangered underdarkers.
Turns out you don't really want to open UD towns for PvP hunting season when surfacers outnumber the underdarkers 4 to 1.

xf1313
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:39 am
Location: China

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by xf1313 » Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:06 am

-XXX- wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:37 am
xf1313 wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:07 am
Not Andunor, other place that is not a trade city, but a settlement of monsters and monsters only. Make it clear that stepping in means death/becoming slaves. Some place only real monsters can go (not even outcast or slaves). Give a chance for characters that loath surface races to play out.
You mean Udos? You want Udos? Even there impregnable gates had to be added to protect the endangered underdarkers.
Turns out you don't really want to open UD towns for PvP hunting season when surfacers outnumber the underdarkers 4 to 1.
I do not know, I did not play when Udo existed LOL. On one side I have no issue with surfacer going down (really, goblins, kobolds, Gnolls...should be on surface!) The other side is almost every character in UD are forced to play surfacer friendly. It doesn’t have to be real pvp, just some threat tossing match, or make it a big deal to sneak in somewhere they shouldn’t! Currently a drow or goblin going into Brog is risky, but not feeling the same the other way round..especially when the said surfacer is human/half-orc
Wild-elf Druid Laurifin Goldenleaf
Drow shadowlord Lomin Nightshade

User avatar
Apothys
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:43 pm
Location: UK

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Apothys » Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:10 pm

Having a surface town for Gnolls. Goblins and other surface monster races would be cool as hell. I have a gnoll at the moment and he wants to be on the surface but i cant. I like Andunor but it feels wrong for this toon ive created. The surface is massive after all. Take Minmir its basically untamed with a single Church of Bane.

In the same line of reasoning conflict over various mini settlements could be waged across Minmir, Its a deadly open place with room for expansion and could be colonized by different factions with the right mechanics in place.

Talandis Tanor'Thal
Kalnafein Cress'delbarra
Tanis Thade
Merklynn Steelshadow II
Gulmyr Dro'Vaalvaz
Aerik Northman


User avatar
HeyLadyOfDecay
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:18 pm
Location: Andunor

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by HeyLadyOfDecay » Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:44 pm

Eh, those races need an inbetween cave.
Lyann Reyer. Back by demand.
(Mass grave of other characters)

User avatar
Apothys
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:43 pm
Location: UK

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Apothys » Fri Aug 19, 2022 7:42 pm

HeyLadyOfDecay wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:44 pm
Eh, those races need an inbetween cave.
in between cave?

Talandis Tanor'Thal
Kalnafein Cress'delbarra
Tanis Thade
Merklynn Steelshadow II
Gulmyr Dro'Vaalvaz
Aerik Northman


User avatar
HeyLadyOfDecay
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:18 pm
Location: Andunor

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by HeyLadyOfDecay » Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:18 pm

Apothys wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 7:42 pm
HeyLadyOfDecay wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:44 pm
Eh, those races need an inbetween cave.
in between cave?
Like a half surface village that continues into a cave leading to the UD
Lyann Reyer. Back by demand.
(Mass grave of other characters)

The_Icelord
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:38 am

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by The_Icelord » Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:35 pm

Go kill some banites, and take their crib.

User avatar
Rei_Jin
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:58 am

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Rei_Jin » Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:19 am

Eira wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:34 am
HeyLadyOfDecay wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:05 am
xf1313 wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:46 am
I love Andunor hub, but...it is getting very packed.
Yeah, on that note, complete 360, can we make pvping surfacers in the hub the norm again?
Lot of;

Hey, a surfacer. *makes a comment about it* then get several comments protecting the surfacer.
If you want to kill surfacers without people stopping you, how about being cunning about it? Draw them off in private. Lead them into an ambush. Manipulate them into attacking you first. Haze them. Drive them off. Blackmail them! Use them! Make story!

But if you want to go "hey, a surfacer" ! killbash then, well, no.

Andunor is a trade city. Andunor wants visitors to trade. Andunor does not care about their origin. Andunor won't care if you are smart about how you kill them. Andunor will care if you disrupt the trade simply because a trader smells like sunlight.

Surfacers have migrated to the UD. It's a valid story. But forcing them to prove they're good and proper evil by going "hey surfacer! Prove you deserve to live here by enslaving an elf!" crushes any sense of nuance. And things like that have happened.

If people stop you from doing something ingame, the solution is not found offgame. There is more to evil than black and white red vs blue if they're not holding my hand let's pvp.
Here's a fun question.

Why can Surfacers migrate to the UD, but not the other way around?

Xerah
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Xerah » Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:51 am

Things don’t have to be entirely equal here. It wouldn’t really make sense.

Also, some characters do go fromUD to surface. But the UD is a trade city that welcomes all. The surface cities are absolutely not that.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

User avatar
Rei_Jin
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:58 am

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Rei_Jin » Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:01 am

Sibiyad was, for a time.

Then player actions made it not so, and DMs stepped in to officially make it not so.

Why can't there be a surface city/location where UDers are tolerated, in the same way that surfacers are tolerated in Andunor?

Izex
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:44 pm

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Izex » Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:51 am


Not sure where/how alignment comes into it.

A large majority of conflict RP and PvP comes from "do/dont do this or I will harm you", and this is totally natural and expected.

Leave or die.
Become my prisoner or die.
Free the prisoner or die.
Give me your valuables or die.
Stop trying to rob me or die.
Stop running past me to ninja the loot or die.
Unsummon the thing or die.
Get your hand out of my pocket or die.
Ad nauseum

These are all valid sources of conflict and PvP. They are simple, small, and usually dont lead to some high quality story arch, but they are totally valid. The same concept applies to bigger and more meaningful situations, though. The big problems happen when either the losing side of these conflicts REFUSE to give any ground, or when the winning side REFUSES to have any grace in victory.

Say, Gang of Thugs controls the Slum. Crew of Thieves wants to muscle in on this territory. Crew of Thieves is the "stronger" of the two. They give Gang of Thugs the opportunity to give up control of the Slum. Gang of Thugs refuses, turf war starts. Crew of Thieves, being the stronger faction, lays the smack down with a couple of decisive victories. Gang of Thugs refuses to bend. Crew of Thieves might even offer to absorb the members of Gang of Thugs into their crew as subordinate members.

At this point, in my personal opinion, Gang of Thugs "should" admit defeat. Take the offer to be absorbed into Crew of Thieves, or cede the issue altogether by ceasing their operations in the hypothetical Slum. Also, it is my opinion that Crew of Thieves also has a responsibility to be gracious victors and for example, not continue to hunt down and kill the defeated enemy just because they can.

The major problems seem to stem from one of the two of the following, or perhaps both:

1. The "losing" side refuses to give any ground no matter how frequently or how severely they get beaten.
2. The "winning" side is unreasonable. They make unreasonable demands. Reasonable would be "stop operating as a crew in the Slum, its ours now". Unreasonable would be "Leave Andunor". The very most unreasonable thing, and I think a certain rulebreak, is for the "winning" side to keep up the pressure in the hopes the other side will roll/shelf/quit. Thats toxic and bullying and Not Nice.

This is a player issue, not an alignment or Andunor issue. Step one is to hope our fellow players can be reasonable people and play their characters in a reasonable way. If that fails, we should alert DM staff IMO.
I agree with you on the two major problems. In my experience of PvP in Andunor is that most groups that are losing will just insult and refuse to surrender or give in to demands when they are clearly on the losing side. The demands could be that they just say they surrender, pay some gold, or have a duel and they won't agree. They would rather shelf their character or roll than admit they lost and that just causes them to OOCly hate the group that won.

User avatar
HeyLadyOfDecay
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:18 pm
Location: Andunor

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by HeyLadyOfDecay » Sat Aug 20, 2022 7:00 am

Izex wrote:
Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:51 am

Not sure where/how alignment comes into it.

A large majority of conflict RP and PvP comes from "do/dont do this or I will harm you", and this is totally natural and expected.

Leave or die.
Become my prisoner or die.
Free the prisoner or die.
Give me your valuables or die.
Stop trying to rob me or die.
Stop running past me to ninja the loot or die.
Unsummon the thing or die.
Get your hand out of my pocket or die.
Ad nauseum

These are all valid sources of conflict and PvP. They are simple, small, and usually dont lead to some high quality story arch, but they are totally valid. The same concept applies to bigger and more meaningful situations, though. The big problems happen when either the losing side of these conflicts REFUSE to give any ground, or when the winning side REFUSES to have any grace in victory.

Say, Gang of Thugs controls the Slum. Crew of Thieves wants to muscle in on this territory. Crew of Thieves is the "stronger" of the two. They give Gang of Thugs the opportunity to give up control of the Slum. Gang of Thugs refuses, turf war starts. Crew of Thieves, being the stronger faction, lays the smack down with a couple of decisive victories. Gang of Thugs refuses to bend. Crew of Thieves might even offer to absorb the members of Gang of Thugs into their crew as subordinate members.

At this point, in my personal opinion, Gang of Thugs "should" admit defeat. Take the offer to be absorbed into Crew of Thieves, or cede the issue altogether by ceasing their operations in the hypothetical Slum. Also, it is my opinion that Crew of Thieves also has a responsibility to be gracious victors and for example, not continue to hunt down and kill the defeated enemy just because they can.

The major problems seem to stem from one of the two of the following, or perhaps both:

1. The "losing" side refuses to give any ground no matter how frequently or how severely they get beaten.
2. The "winning" side is unreasonable. They make unreasonable demands. Reasonable would be "stop operating as a crew in the Slum, its ours now". Unreasonable would be "Leave Andunor". The very most unreasonable thing, and I think a certain rulebreak, is for the "winning" side to keep up the pressure in the hopes the other side will roll/shelf/quit. Thats toxic and bullying and Not Nice.

This is a player issue, not an alignment or Andunor issue. Step one is to hope our fellow players can be reasonable people and play their characters in a reasonable way. If that fails, we should alert DM staff IMO.
I agree with you on the two major problems. In my experience of PvP in Andunor is that most groups that are losing will just insult and refuse to surrender or give in to demands when they are clearly on the losing side. The demands could be that they just say they surrender, pay some gold, or have a duel and they won't agree. They would rather shelf their character or roll than admit they lost and that just causes them to OOCly hate the group that won.
Some joker quote about "if it isn't going to plan everybody loses their mind" and "You had plans, look where that got you"

Like, PvP and hostile rp can disrupt plans, plans a faction was working on, planned for days etc.
That can make folk a bit ticked.
Lyann Reyer. Back by demand.
(Mass grave of other characters)

User avatar
Eira
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 539
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:59 am
Location: Denmark

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Eira » Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:59 am

Rei_Jin wrote:
Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:19 am
Eira wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:34 am
HeyLadyOfDecay wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:05 am


Yeah, on that note, complete 360, can we make pvping surfacers in the hub the norm again?
Lot of;

Hey, a surfacer. *makes a comment about it* then get several comments protecting the surfacer.
If you want to kill surfacers without people stopping you, how about being cunning about it? Draw them off in private. Lead them into an ambush. Manipulate them into attacking you first. Haze them. Drive them off. Blackmail them! Use them! Make story!

But if you want to go "hey, a surfacer" ! killbash then, well, no.

Andunor is a trade city. Andunor wants visitors to trade. Andunor does not care about their origin. Andunor won't care if you are smart about how you kill them. Andunor will care if you disrupt the trade simply because a trader smells like sunlight.

Surfacers have migrated to the UD. It's a valid story. But forcing them to prove they're good and proper evil by going "hey surfacer! Prove you deserve to live here by enslaving an elf!" crushes any sense of nuance. And things like that have happened.

If people stop you from doing something ingame, the solution is not found offgame. There is more to evil than black and white red vs blue if they're not holding my hand let's pvp.
Here's a fun question.

Why can Surfacers migrate to the UD, but not the other way around?
Because evil is, in a great many cases, apathetic, uncaring unless they are made to care, and largely don't care so much unless something is an active threat to them in the moment and their investments. Evil is pragmatic. Evil does not often rouse themselves unless it's worth it. Evil is used to a whole range of monsters or non monsters.

Good is not tolerant. Good deals with threats. Surfacers fear. Surfacers know monsters attack. Good cares A Lot. They just want monsters to stay the hell away.

It has never been equal and it was never intended to be equal. If people want to play monsters, they are opting into monsters, who are limited in these ways lorewise and on Arelith. Humans are rarely limited in these ways. They spread everywhere.

There is also history of the island to look at. Evil has ambition and wants to take over. Good has never been a viable threat of taking over a location and turning the Underdark good. Surfacers who come openly to UD are usually as morally and cosmically corrupt as other Andunorians. What's the issue with fellow scum?

I exist to describe the world around us.

Akorae

Keth'ym Evanara - wandering better paths
Veriel Xyrdan - married and happy
Reena Welkins - Dead

Discord: eighra


User avatar
HeyLadyOfDecay
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:18 pm
Location: Andunor

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by HeyLadyOfDecay » Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:23 am

Eira wrote:
Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:59 am
Humans are rarely limited in these ways. They spread everywhere.
Human, should not be the norm, slaves or outcasts, sure, but both should be the bottom of the barrel and outcast, specially at start should be scared they won't end up as slaves.

Andunor to often looks like a half human city.

I very much like to see;

-outcast, minor award

-freed slaves by chainbreak to lose hub portal and be unwelcome.

-free slaves by paid release to be required an aplication for outcast, if they get refused they
should leave aswell. Edit: to prevent an outcast back door, x time spend as slave required.

-surfacers that remain in the UD for a long time also be requesting outcast. And with refusal to
depart.
Lyann Reyer. Back by demand.
(Mass grave of other characters)

User avatar
Rei_Jin
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:58 am

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Rei_Jin » Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:17 am

Eira wrote:
Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:59 am
Rei_Jin wrote:
Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:19 am
Eira wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:34 am


If you want to kill surfacers without people stopping you, how about being cunning about it? Draw them off in private. Lead them into an ambush. Manipulate them into attacking you first. Haze them. Drive them off. Blackmail them! Use them! Make story!

But if you want to go "hey, a surfacer" ! killbash then, well, no.

Andunor is a trade city. Andunor wants visitors to trade. Andunor does not care about their origin. Andunor won't care if you are smart about how you kill them. Andunor will care if you disrupt the trade simply because a trader smells like sunlight.

Surfacers have migrated to the UD. It's a valid story. But forcing them to prove they're good and proper evil by going "hey surfacer! Prove you deserve to live here by enslaving an elf!" crushes any sense of nuance. And things like that have happened.

If people stop you from doing something ingame, the solution is not found offgame. There is more to evil than black and white red vs blue if they're not holding my hand let's pvp.
Here's a fun question.

Why can Surfacers migrate to the UD, but not the other way around?
Because evil is, in a great many cases, apathetic, uncaring unless they are made to care, and largely don't care so much unless something is an active threat to them in the moment and their investments. Evil is pragmatic. Evil does not often rouse themselves unless it's worth it. Evil is used to a whole range of monsters or non monsters.

Good is not tolerant. Good deals with threats. Surfacers fear. Surfacers know monsters attack. Good cares A Lot. They just want monsters to stay the hell away.

It has never been equal and it was never intended to be equal. If people want to play monsters, they are opting into monsters, who are limited in these ways lorewise and on Arelith. Humans are rarely limited in these ways. They spread everywhere.

There is also history of the island to look at. Evil has ambition and wants to take over. Good has never been a viable threat of taking over a location and turning the Underdark good. Surfacers who come openly to UD are usually as morally and cosmically corrupt as other Andunorians. What's the issue with fellow scum?
Except that evil is also violent, unwilling to negotiate where it feels it does not need to, and prone to use others as tools to show that they are strong.

Having Surfacers in Andunor without them being violently killed is, in most cases, an OOC consideration, whether by DM rule or players attempting to make space for other players.

There is no more reason that the average halfling should survive walking into Andunor, than that the average goblin should survive walking to Cordor.

Except that surfacers can come and go from Andunor, in most cases, with little more than a sneer and some threatening glances, if they even get that.

You can argue it's about greed, about money, or whatever, and that may be true from a setting perspective. It may be true because the DMs have decided that this is how the setting is.

But I fail to see why somewhere like Sibiyad would not treat underdarkers in the same way as surfacers are treated in Andunor.

Cordor? Sure, except oh wait, they have an open Banite sleeping with the king.

And if there's more to evil than just openly killing their enemies on sight, why is that okay for the supposedly "good guys"?

I thought good was supposed to be about redemption, about second chances, about not judging based on appearance and background?

Or is that only for evil?

Xerah
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Xerah » Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:53 pm

Having surfacers in Andunor is not an OOC thing in any way shape or form. Of course the DMs have decided that’s how the setting is.

Having a Banite in Cordor is not the same thing as a goblin walking around.

Redemption bring something that some good characters strive for doesn’t mean that UDers should be welcomed.

These “what-about-isms” makes it sound like you don’t understand the setting or alignment and I have no idea why the need for this level of passive aggressiveness.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

Xerah
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Xerah » Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:00 pm

HeyLadyOfDecay wrote:
Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:23 am
Eira wrote:
Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:59 am
Humans are rarely limited in these ways. They spread everywhere.
Human, should not be the norm, slaves or outcasts, sure, but both should be the bottom of the barrel and outcast, specially at start should be scared they won't end up as slaves.

Andunor to often looks like a half human city.
What do you mean “should”? Should implies that something was done wrong. Andunor is modelled after Skullport which humans are the dominant race. Humans should be the most common race in the city and they likely are.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

Locked