Is Andunor Needed Anymore

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Itikar » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:39 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 9:25 am
I'd like to ask you to provide a referrence or a quotation for that as it's not something that I've been able to find.
A quarter of the drow city of Eryndlyn is openly Vhaerunite. Chaulssin is an entirely Vhaerunite city. Sshamath has an open temple to Vhaeraun. Llurth-Dreir, the biggest drow city, has again a Vhaerunite open presence (and no Lolthites). Ched Nasad, after the events following the Silence of Lolth (which in Arelith however did not happen), became openly ruled by Vhaerunites.

All these can be easily found on both Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark and in the Underdark sourcebook for the 3rd edition, under the respective sections.

Vhaerunites also have a presence on the surface, again open, at least within their own societies, as is the case of the settlements of the forest of Mir. Holldaybim, Iskasshyol and Dallnothax, are all Vhaerunite settlements (with some Ghaunadan presence). They at times war with the Lolthites of nearby Guallidurth, but they do not hide their allegiance. These are mentioned in Demihuman Deities under the entry for Vhaeraun, as well as in Empires from the Shining Seas.

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting for the 3rd edition also details the Cormanthor drow who happen to be for the overwhelming majority Vhaerunites. Openly so, as they use it both to interact with the elves that live around them.

I am surprised you did not hear of any of these, especially since you also mention Llurth-Dreier later in the post, and that all this information is all also on Forgotten Realms wiki.
Both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun have a very strong theme revolving around their rebellion agains Lolth. Without Lolth in the setting they would've been pointless, while Lolth would have been just fine without them. They are great for linear storylines (be it a novel or a PnP campaign) where a rebellion can rise up, cast down their oppressors and usher in change. They are also a very poor fit for a PW where such narratives are very rare (as ushering in a change on this scale without a strong endorsement from the Team can be quite challenging).
Here they are at the fringe of what's already fringe, incompatible with everything and a bad fit overall.
I recognized already that they have a strong element in that sense. Their mythologies and ideals are built around the fact that the drow had been corrupted by Lolth at one point, and now they wish to fix the damage. That makes them particularly ideal for antagonists and rebels against the Lolthite drow, as you correctly point out. As you wrongly believe however, that is also a really limiting and incorrect way to assess them. It is quite apparent from the lore and the sourcebooks that if Lolth is not around these faiths can exist without significant issues, as they have pretty precise projects to interact with other people and among themselves. The biggest issue on the server for these is the limit to surface activities and settlements, not that they have not projects or ideas to set in action up there. Eilistraeeans wish to redeem the drow and find a place for them on the surface, but they can redeem them from Ghaunadaur, Vhaeraun or Kiaransalee just as fine, as well as they can fight their worshippers. And at the same time they can try to find a place for their people on the surface, where Lolthites are usually absent. Vhaerunites are pretty eager to do the same with much more violent means, by submitting and conquering whoever they are able to, both above or below, and build their egualitarian, more or less in name, societies. On the surface they also try to reconnect with their forsaken cousins, however usually without much success. For what pertains the activities that these faiths usually do in the Underdark, Andunor allows to perform them relatively fine, i.e. spreading the creed of Eilistraee in secret and helping slaves, or either infiltrating the Lolthites to pursue the cause of Vhaeraun or building an open Vhaerunite faction. Which their players in fact do, and did in the past years, from what I could see.

Demihuman Deities provides abundant references and descriptions of the designs of the faiths, other than fighting Lolth, so I advise to read also the respective sections there carefully. From the way in which you speak of them, you seem to have the idea that they are the equivalent of Zinzerena, which is just about destruction of Lolthite society with no plans to replace it after it has been burned to the ground. Vhaerunites and Eilistraeeans are much more than that.

One can actually draw the parallel between them and the actual Seldarine, who have Lolth and the drow playing a role in their mythology, and encourage the elves to avoid the practices that turned the drow what they later became. Fighting Lolth is certainly part of what most of the Seldarine stand for, but with the single exception of Shevarash, they have plenty of other things to do if the drow are not around. And so do the other drow faiths other than Lolth, they simply tend to interact with "spiderkissers" more often because that is the majority faith among the drow. The same is true also for Ghaunadan and Kiaransaleean drow, both on the server and in the lore.
Personally, I have a hard time reconciling with why a drow player character can select a deity like Eilistraee, when players are explicitly forbidden from playing Drizzt clones. While there's certainly more nuance to it, players have been consistently and without fail demonstrating why this is a problem for a very long time now.
Drizzt has absolutely nothing to do with Eilistraee. R.A. Salvatore even commented negatively about the drow deities other than Lolth, so this comes with no surprise. Drizzt seems not concerned at all to redeem the Drow as a people or in finding a way to reconcile being a drow with a vision that does not stem from the Spider Queen. He is a unique individual, again in the view of his author, due to his circumstances of birth, experiences and spontaneous views that nobody really taught him to that extent. His only mild external input for becoming what he did was his father showing a relatively independent spirit toward females, which is absolutely insufficient to explain Drizzt's attitude and behavior.

It can be safely stated that characters that behave in a way consistent with Drizzt have practically nothing to do with Eilistraee, her beliefs and dogma. Liriel Baenre, the protagonist of some of Elaine Cunningham's novels, is on the other hand the correct example of Eilistraeean drow, until she became Mystran at least. Eilistraeean drow are much more akin to Lolthites and even more so Vhaerunites than to Drizzt. They do not act good because of some spontaneous good nature, but because they simply follow a precise religious belief and they do not seek personal acceptance above, but acceptance for their people. In fact Drizzt is not a follower of Eilistraee, but a ranger of Mielikki.

Lastly I would be rather curious to know how you are able to state with certainty that their players are "without fail demonstrating why this is a problem". Did you interact with every single one of them?

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Apothys » Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:10 pm

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:49 pm
I know this isn't exactly a comprehensive reply, but districts being mentally reserved for specific races is one of the biggest things hindering roleplay, not helping it.
Bendir proves that isnt true. Id go as far as to say players thrive there with the rp.

However i got to agree with an earlier post, I play a drow and i am evil, yet Andunor forces me to debase my characters beliefs as the only way he can survive is to be okay with the elven slaves being paraded through the hub or the elven language spoken openly burning out his ear drums. I get that adaption is key to surviving in Andunor, but a lot of people seem to be playing good characters even if there rp is amazing!

Overall - I think some races should be forced to be evil alignment in the hope it improves the ambience of the city without it resorting to conflict over perceived insults to what they are.

Adding another settlement that players control fully would be great too. It doesn't need to be race specific. Players can dictate that through there own laws and policies as they gain power and if citizens dont like it they can vote them out.

Last but not least - yeah make the districts hubs with portals and writ guys/gals and not the HUB its self. Remove the portal there, give each district a portal and a space to gather. Greyport has its bar/district house. The Sharps has its throne room area. The Devils Table has... a patch of muddy ground outside near the stalls. Work on these as the hubs and leave the original hub as a marketplace.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by -XXX- » Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:18 pm

Royal Blood wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:28 pm
I agree with this but everytime there's narrative enforcement it's met, in my opinion, harshly by players.
That's fine. It's very difficult to please everyone, but the important distinction here is that the option to completely reject the narrative is no longer present.
Ineterestingly enough with regards to the topic at hand; even Andunor would have likely never existed had the Team been unwilling to direct the larger narrative.
Itikar wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:39 pm
It can be safely stated that characters that behave in a way consistent with Drizzt have practically nothing to do with Eilistraee, her beliefs and dogma. Liriel Baenre, the protagonist of some of Elaine Cunningham's novels, is on the other hand the correct example of Eilistraeean drow, until she became Mystran at least. Eilistraeean drow are much more akin to Lolthites and even more so Vhaerunites than to Drizzt. They do not act good because of some spontaneous good nature, but because they simply follow a precise religious belief and they do not seek personal acceptance above, but acceptance for their people. In fact Drizzt is not a follower of Eilistraee, but a ranger of Mielikki.
I did acknowledge that there was more nuance to it, but at the first glance there are major reoccurring themes that they do have in common:

Drizzt - rebells against lolthite opression, is good
Eilistraee worshippers - rebel against lolthite oppression, are mostly good (they are confined to CG, CN, NG mechanically speaking)
potato potato, tomato tomato...

The idea here is that having too much of something that deviates from the mold to this degree threatens the integrity of the setting.
Itikar wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:39 pm
Lastly I would be rather curious to know how you are able to state with certainty that their players are "without fail demonstrating why this is a problem". Did you interact with every single one of them?
No, but every single one of them that I have so far has been accompanied by a sufficient amount of both IC and OOC drama and toxicity to make me believe that this particular character concept was detrimental to Arelith. Which by no means is necessarily a criticism aimed at the players behind these characters. In many cases these characters turned out to be simply too much for the other players to handle by merely existing.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Itikar » Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:09 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:18 pm
The idea here is that having too much of something that deviates from the mold to this degree threatens the integrity of the setting.
It threatens your expectations. These behaviors are pretty well sourced in the lore and the setting.

Freth faith actually deviates from the integrity of the setting, as it were, since it's homebrew, and takes a big liberty to make its followers lawful, instead of tendentially chaotic, something that I have found no precedent of in the lore. Yet, I would say that it enriches it and creates a nice new niche.

So all this talking about integrity of the setting and how drow should be played boils down to a more simple argument: you do not like how certain people play their drow. But unless you are a DM you have absolutely no right whatsoever to judge their roleplay. Don't play with them if you don't like them, or seek roles for your characters that make you not interact with them.

Speaking about the integrity of the setting right now in Andunor, there are at least three or four drow Houses that follow a canonical model, one of which, and a rather big one at that, plays the Menzo House down to a T. The others I do not know as well, but they seemed to display only very minor liberties from the Menzo mold. There is then a House that flirts with the Freth faith, and that is fine, as it is part of the setting on the server, and then a pair more Houses that are more relaxed. The mix is completed by a handful of drow who follow other faiths, with a degree of secrecy that goes from just keeping a low profile, to the maniacally paranoid. So, if you care so much for the "setting integrity", it is pretty much there. If you however play only with the laid back Houses or the pseudo-Freth one, and flat out ignore the more traditional ones, as I far too often see some characters do, you won't find the canonical Lolthite rp. This should really come as no surprise.

If some of you believe that Lolthite rp is toxic and should be limited in favor of a Skullport setting, and others on the other hand find that the alternative is not consistent with (what you want to claim as the integrity of) the setting, with a more one-dimensional type of drow and monsters in general, it is pretty evident that you cannot be both satisfied at the same time. Two years ago there was a very robust group of players that were into canon Menzo-style roleplay for drow, and the Devil's Table and Andunor were a fun place to be for those who enjoyed such roleplay. However most of those players left since then, either going to play surface, or leaving the server altogether, after they found that the reaction to their characters and plots was, to put it mildly, not what they enjoyed. Again, this should not come as a surprise.
In many cases these characters turned out to be too much for the other players to handle simply by existing.

Are you aware that somebody may think the same of the characters you play? And that they may think that they are not a positive influence on the server? I am not saying that they are as I do not know you, and have neither elements nor desire to judge, but I mention this because you should realize how dangerous and ambivalent these statements can turn out. If you feel entitled to say the same about other players, they may very well decide to say the same about you, coming up with reasons as sound as yours, if they have not already. As you might guess, this is not really a good and constructive way to build a community.

That said there have been DMs intervening in the past for characters that turned out problematic with their "existence", but that is frankly not just something that affected the good ones, but very often also the evil ones! It is a complex race and culture to play, and it really comes, one more time, as no surprise that the difficulty is even higher for the good ones. I don't see the two phenomena as particularly separate, but simply different aspects of the same issue and of roleplaying online in general.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by -XXX- » Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:05 pm

Itikar wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:09 pm
If some of you believe that Lolthite rp is toxic and should be limited in favor of a Skullport setting, and others on the other hand find that the alternative is not consistent with (what you want to claim as the integrity of) the setting, with a more one-dimensional type of drow and monsters in general, it is pretty evident that you cannot be both satisfied at the same time.
This is very true. Exploding Lolth as a selectable deity for PCs and building some lolthite dungeon around the theme somewhere away from Andunor instead would have also been a perfectly reasonable direction.

As things are now however, Lolth's theme seems to be still the maistream for drow RP, so logically those religions that openly oppose her are being repressed. I've played followers of Ghaunadaur, Kiaransalee and Selvetarm before. There are many ways for a drow character to fit in without fully embracing Lolthite RP but some other themes just don't mix well.
Itikar wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:09 pm
Are you aware that somebody may think the same of the characters you play? And that they may think that they are not a positive influence on the server? I am not saying that they are as I do not know you, and have neither elements nor desire to judge, but I mention this because you should realize how dangerous and ambivalent these statements can turn out. If you feel entitled to say the same about other players, they may very well decide to say the same about you, coming up with reasons as sound as yours, if they have not already. As you might guess, this is not really a good and constructive way to build a community.
I have changed the direction of my RP and even retired characters based on reactions and expectations coming from other players before.
While trying to please everybody at all times might not be reasonable, if they all dogpile my character every chance they get, it's probably the right time for me to take a step back and take a good look at the bigger picture.

Well, at least that's my own take on it - the more sandboxy approach to the game allows players to simply ignore some of the things that they don't like instead (which is both fine and admitedly much more difficult to do in Andunor).

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Spriggan Bride » Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:15 pm

We have DMs to talk to players if they're out of bounds. That's the system. Please don't encourage shelving characters because other players want you to.

I've had many unpopular or shunned characters. Most who I play aren't going to be stock archetypes. I fully accept that a large part of this server doesn't get what I'm trying to do most of the time, and I could honestly care less, this is a creative outlet and I'm going to go where inspiration takes me. I don't like anyone normalizing peer pressuring others out of the game.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Watchful Glare » Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:22 pm

Itikar wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:09 pm
Stuff
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Playing_any_ ... 2C_and_why
Definitive Drow Policy wrote:— Surface/Underdark relations need not necessarily be hostile, however trust should not be implicit or even assumed.
Drow should not be kind, gentle, forgiving, or sympathetic. The Underdark is a dangerous place where survival is extremely difficult, and those Drow who put others before themselves rarely reach adulthood.
— Drow are free to visit and raid the Surface, so long as incursions are roleplayed and natural weaknesses are not ignored for convenience. (e.g. Light aversion, unfamiliarity with open space, etc...)
This either is, or isn't true.
You may want to play a game populated by friendly kobolds, where we take every individual on their merits, not their race, but Arelith is not that place. Such an egalitarian attitude is commendable in the real world of course, but it will not fly here.
And if you just can't stand the prospect of not being able to play your friendly monster concept, there are many very good NWN servers out there that will allow just that.
As a result of having too much of the above we have the following:
-XXX- wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:18 pm
The idea here is that having too much of something that deviates from the mold to this degree threatens the integrity of the setting.
Which is true, no matter how much Vhaeraun you put in it. The expectations, as you put them, are set in by the Server Owner and lead, and they are legitimate in that you'd expect to see them when you go in game. It's not a case of "well it's what the players make of it", and if it were, that policy and page should be updated to reflect that change.

Vhaeraun can work so long as you dislike Lolth but not the 'Drow way of life' to the point where your character is a kind hearted, forgiving, gentle, funny and reasonable person looking for love in a rough environment. Beause you put ten of those together, outnumber the drow that do follow the policy and they do threaten the integrity of the setting because the reality is, on the server, that is how drow are regardless of what the rules say.

Eilistrae/Lurue are also similarly a problem because much like (in theory, not in practice) Vhaeraun it's a secret worship kind of thing. However, they are directly opposed to the drow way of life. Without anything to oppress you, without anything to adhere to, characters turn to neutral good drow in talk and cuddledrow in whisper range. Do note that this is not exclusive to Eilistrae. However with it once the cat's out of the bag, it's out.
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:20 pm

Apothys wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:10 pm
Bendir proves that isnt true. Id go as far as to say players thrive there with the rp.
That's Bendir.

We're discussing Andunor.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Apothys » Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:11 pm

Bendir is a race specific settlement and it has all the amenities there they require. If each district was given the same luxury and the Andunorians were forced less to use the hub because of its portal and writ master, then any settlement/district would thrive race specific or not. That's what i meant.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Retratserif » Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:54 am

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:20 pm
Apothys wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:10 pm
Bendir proves that isnt true. Id go as far as to say players thrive there with the rp.
That's Bendir.

We're discussing Andunor.
Exactly. Andunor is a special case. As each area would be treated as such.

Characters should have some choice in the level interaction with politics, districts, super groups, and pvp. Forced into one location, and funneled down really oppresses those that have no means of contending. Especially when a ton of players have prescripted agenda, with a faction or factions boosting then the whole way.
.
I had asked once before about planned faction and character design. It of course curiosity. The general consensus was that it is fine. But used to the extreme, were a character is outfitted to the maximum at each level does raise another question. At what point is that meta abuse? Or characters rolled for the sole purpose to sabotage an opposing faction.
.
This has been seen time and time again. Is this recommended? At what point is the line drawn? It's there any plan to expand the Underdark to relieve issues that constantly drive players away? Is there anything to be done about repeat offenders of actions that drive only negative consequences towards unsuspecting newbie's?
.
Or... Is this the environment chosen to represent the Underdark. "Must be in the in crowd, or your doomed"

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by -XXX- » Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:06 am

Retratserif wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:54 am
Or characters rolled for the sole purpose to sabotage an opposing faction.
Report this.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by HeyLadyOfDecay » Fri Jul 22, 2022 4:32 am

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:06 am
Retratserif wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:54 am
Or characters rolled for the sole purpose to sabotage an opposing faction.
Report this.
I actually poked at this when I heard this, And this is not okay.

Reporting things isn't easy for a fair bit of players, I often jump in for them when I think something is morally wrong. This should been reported.

I often feel the DM are not equipped for the UD, because there is a much more cruel way of roleplaying which is to be expected from the place, but we find ourselves in a grey area between this roleplay and the effect it leads to the players fun and mental well being.

When a players fun and feelings lead to a report "This is wrong because I feel x" and they are met with a reply "there is nothing wrong here" players often distance themselves from reporting.

See it as "the school faculty not going after a bully" effect.

This also plays a huge part in the ooc/discord rumor train, I got caught up in one over UD drama, You feel wronged, Your feelings are not validated by DM, speculations are made, rumors are born.

Anyway, I get of the rail, there is also the proof factor, Just because it looks like this to you...
You can't see the other person's screen, read their minds etc. You got to have proof.
Whether this is true or a feeling we have from watching to many detective series..

I have no idea how far the team is willing to investigate claims of rule break.

Anyway, personal experience and experiences that were shared by others.
This is how I look at things, how I feel things. Things may not be accurate as I don't have the entire picture.

Tldr; Players sometimes do not report because feelings.
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by -XXX- » Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:20 am

HeyLadyOfDecay wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 4:32 am
Tldr; Players sometimes do not report because feelings.
But that's on them.

Knowingly eating a rotten fruit and then complaining about the entire crop going bad isn't very helpful.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by HeyLadyOfDecay » Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:52 am

-XXX- wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:20 am
HeyLadyOfDecay wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 4:32 am
Tldr; Players sometimes do not report because feelings.
But that's on them.

Knowingly eating a rotten fruit and then complaining about the entire crop going bad isn't very helpful.
More given a rotten apple to often makes on not trust fresh food.
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Retratserif » Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:13 am

"See it as "the school faculty not going after a bully" effect."

This is very much true. When some make minor, non RP or story breaking mistakes, get green text spam from multiple players... and then immediate DM text... And the flip side of it... When things that are RP and Story breaking happen, get crickets for response.

It is very hard to have faith in the system, when one feels more burned by it, than relief.

I would never deter anyone from reporting. Although in my personal experience, I have felt more on trial from a report, than I do assisted by reporting. But that is me. I do respect everyone's feelings, even if I disagree.

Now, I had been really let down when others have literally said they do not respect other players. And will act out negative narrative against them, for no reason, or just because.

That there, in my opinion, is a problem.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Watchful Glare » Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:47 am

Let's not get off track for what the thread is about. What you are saying is valid, but it should be in it's own thread.
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Retratserif » Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:52 pm

I'm discussing what is happening and had happened in Andunor. Partly oh it's design, and partly on how players are allowed to play. Which I think is totally relevant to the topic.

When things like this pop up. I had asked. What can we do about it? I mean that on an individual level. Now. It's going to take a majority to do that. Though when asked IG and IC... It has never been well received.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by -XXX- » Fri Jul 22, 2022 4:08 pm

Retratserif wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:52 pm
I'm discussing what is happening and had happened in Andunor. Partly oh it's design, and partly on how players are allowed to play.
There's a difference between being allowed to do something and getting away with it beacause nobody reported it.
Retratserif wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:52 pm
What can we do about it? I mean that on an individual level.
Report it.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Retratserif » Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:55 pm

From others, that have had this done to them... its been reported. Over and over...

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by -XXX- » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:19 am

And how can they tell that nothing's been done about the matter?

From what we've been told the DMs don't give players a detailed rundown on how the reported cases are being handled as a policy.
Don't go looking for vindication or public executions here. See something odd? Report, go about your business. See it happen again? Rinse, repeat.

And I agree with Watchful Glare : this is off topic.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Skibbles » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:26 am

DMs don't talk about resolutions, or progressive discipline, for the same reason a manager doesn't fire off an email to the entire company if they talk to someone about their performance. It's management 101.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

Retratserif
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Retratserif » Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:01 am

Thank you for your input. And please...

"Don't go looking for vindication or public executions here"

Sounds a bit of an direct order... please do not tell others what to do. If I cross a line. Or do come close to it. I would take the feedback from the appropriate members of the team. When players take things into their own hands... be it IG acting as DM's Or otherwise attempting to police other players... things can get mixed up.

I will take that... order... as a suggestion. I understand you wanting to be helpful.

"See something odd? Report, go about your business. See it happen again? Rinse, repeat."

Though, as long as this same issue arises over and over again... it has not been fixed. I could be wrong, but it does seem that DM's do get tired of the same exact type of report over and over. Even though its there, and happening. The reporter, does seem to be on trial, before anything is looked into. This may be standard protocol. I am not DM, nor have the procedure in front of me.

I am stating my personal opinion, based on repeated experiences of my own. And from what others that had left disclosed with me. It may seem a bit much. All of this is Underdark and Andunor based. Apologies if you do not share my opinion.

I have taken a break from the purely negative and seems to be very much ooc target on my character. I personally know of about the number of players to quit the server, as I have met that stick it out, even though its fairly miserable for them.

Those that are not targeted... may not see this. Or understand how it would effect ones gameplay. From my experience, it has made it much harder to trust the average player, in normal RP. Nothing to do with evil, or alignments. Just I never knew who was actually playing.

Again, apologies if you do not agree. But this is of the status of Andunor. And how things could be helped with many of the things we have discussed. I do trust that some of this could be used to help alleviate this issue. And make the Underdark better in general.

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-XXX-
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by -XXX- » Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:58 am

Retratserif wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:01 am
"Don't go looking for vindication or public executions here"

Sounds a bit of an direct order... please do not tell others what to do.
a) English is a very concise language where some statements can be subject to interpretation depending on the context. You dismissed the context to push your own narrative there.

b) Note how you never even bothered denying that you might've been looking for vindication here. Well, are you? Because if that's the case you WILL be disappointed - which was the actual message behind the quoted "imperative" statement above all along.

Quidix
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Quidix » Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:03 pm

Having reflected a bit, I find that it is structurally much more difficult to handle conflict within Andunor vs the surface. I believe this is what results in an oscillation between stagnation and tense situations.

Conflict within Andunor is difficult because:
[1] It’s hard to avoid consequences if one remains after a conflict, given how dense the city is and the importance of the hub (which often turns into PvP or “leaving Andunor” as resolution)
[2] It’s the “last chance” place and there are limited RP hubs to go escape to (which can turn “leaving Andunor” to a death / shelving unless one can weasel back into surface, or accept operating outside of RP hubs)

The above means that pushing a conflict narrative within the city often end in a way that feels unfulfilling for at least one group. So, it’s no wonder the UD often defaults to the well-known “unify Andunor against the surface” story, as doing anything else is a high-stakes game which can deeply affect characters and sometimes even cause OOC grudges.

Meanwhile, the surface has none of these issues as there are many escape options that still act as RP hubs (e.g. Andunor, Sencliff, Sibayad, Crow’s Nest, in part Guldorand).

A proper neutral ground (not settlement necessarily) would really help in alleviating this. For this to be effective, it needs to be separate to Andunor and have some NPC enforcement that avoids extreme hostilities (but ideally not so safe that is become a perfect safehaven).

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HeyLadyOfDecay
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by HeyLadyOfDecay » Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:38 pm

Quidix wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:03 pm
Having reflected a bit, I find that it is structurally much more difficult to handle conflict within Andunor vs the surface. I believe this is what results in an oscillation between stagnation and tense situations.

Conflict within Andunor is difficult because:
[1] It’s hard to avoid consequences if one remains after a conflict, given how dense the city is and the importance of the hub (which often turns into PvP or “leaving Andunor” as resolution)
[2] It’s the “last chance” place and there are limited RP hubs to go escape to (which can turn “leaving Andunor” to a death/shelving unless one can weasel back into the surface, or accept operating outside of RP hubs)

The above means that pushing a conflict narrative within the city often end in a way that feels unfulfilling for at least one group. So, it’s no wonder the UD often defaults to the well-known “unify Andunor against the surface” story, as doing anything else is a high-stakes game that can deeply affect characters and sometimes even cause OOC grudges.

Meanwhile, the surface has none of these issues as there are many escape options that still act as RP hubs (e.g. Andunor, Sencliff, Sibayad, Crow’s Nest, in part Guldorand).

A proper neutral ground (not settlement necessarily) would really help in alleviating this. For this to be effective, it needs to be separate from Andunor and have some NPC enforcement that avoids extreme hostilities (but ideally not so safe that it becomes a perfect safehaven).
Hmm, But there is also the third thing, When you are "barred" from Andunor, You're not just "barred" from Andunor, But from those who are characters you enjoy playing with, ooc friends or even family, A lot happens when you are "Barred", And on the other side, When a friend is "barred" this causes a certain negative vibe by those that stay.

In other words the OOC effect, And I often feel the staff takes this a bit light "It is just a game" but it is basically in child terms "Gerda can't come over to our house because Dina RP'd that she had to leave the party" And often folk will reply with "Roll a new character" But you won't be able to just hop back into that "group vibe" as an RP-wise newcomer.

When it comes to Andunor in RP and PvP, We really need to stop and think "Would it be fun if it happened to me" and if your answer is "no", Reach out to that player (when possible) to ask if it is ok, Or just don't.

I truly think that if we can better ourselves, And keep the fun for all as a united goal, Then this returning drama would be solved without new settlements and other stuff. (I still thing new settlements would be awesome though)
Lyann Reyer. Back by demand.
(Mass grave of other characters)

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