Is Andunor Needed Anymore

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IanPatron
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by IanPatron » Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:31 pm

Richrd wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:49 pm
Now about the main topic here itself. Andunor is fine the way it is.
Said no cleric of Vhaeraun or Priestess of Eilistrae.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by -XXX- » Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:44 pm

But those are religious sects on the fringe of UD society. They are meant to be secretive and in hiding.
Sharrans and Cyricists don't get to openly parade their faith and religious practices around Cordor either.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by IanPatron » Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:47 pm

Yes, but Sharrans and Cyricists have OTHER places to go.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by -XXX- » Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:59 pm

Mhm, Andunor might still be viable for them once they get exposed, depending on their race ofc.

Which is actually one of Andunor's bigger problems IMO - that it gets often seen as Surface's dump for used villains.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by IanPatron » Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:44 pm

Andunor is the last stop for all things UD.

Mind you my personal game play is fine as is...

But...

I have witnessed some things that make me wonder if it's a good idea having only one safe place in all the UD.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Cthuletta » Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:30 pm

Just thought I'd throw my little opinion on here as well. Been playing in the UD for little less than a year.

I love Andunor, it's a melting pot, and it has roughly about the same access to it for surfacers that UD players have to Cordor. Good enough disguise and RP, it can be infiltrated, you can see folks from Andunor be redeemed (surface races), or see surfacers toons fall/be corrupted.

It has a little bit of everything in Andunor, there's a couple elves, hins, quite a few humans with the Outcast from creation option, then a whole horde of monster races and Drow.
So, essentially, it's a great city in that aspect of equal opportunity in most individual cases.

That said, there is one glaring problem that tends to occur really often, the biggest example being showcased in Drow characters. I play a halfling in the UD, if she wanted to go and be redeemed, or leave Andunor behind because she's become threatened in it, it'd be almost impossible, but I still have that sliver of a chance. A drow does not. There is nowhere for a drow or a monster race to go.
There's also the players who create Llothites largely because they have a love for the lore and story. Most people in Andunor can pick out a 'traditonal drow' immediately, and those 'traditional drow' are usually gonna have a bad time. Why is this? Because they're told, IC, "Well this is a trade city. All are welcome here.", essentially.

This could kinda be fixed with the districts, such as the Devil's Table to stick to the drow example, where you have the temple of Lloth. This is just rumour and speculation on my part as I don't know the OOC facts, but I had HEARD that the Llothite temple, on more than one occasion, hadn't even been owned by a Llothite OR a drow. Take that one with a grain of salt since I don't know the OOC truth for sure. But if there's truth to that, where can those traditional Llothites go? Sure they play nice in the Hub, they have to. But with an inactive district, or one not even catering to their religion, they're kinda stuck.
Any race can be a member of any district as far as I'm aware.
I think Grumpy Cat said it best in that there's really no easy solution, but how I'd personally do it as an individual is kinda twofold.
First, I don't think a whole new settlement is truly required to fix the problem. However, I do think as the UD playerbase grows, we DO need more space. Let's expand the districts. More housing, especially!! Definitely on board with the idea of a portal for district members in each main district house.
Second, make the districts more race-locked. I'd even add a new district entirely for kobolds in particular. Devil's Table for the Drow, Sharps for monsterous races, goblin slums, Greyport can be duergar/outcast, Treadstone is a strange one since it's not truly a district, but let's make it one with all the fixings as a free-for-all district, and then the Hub is the city center.

Just my ideas, but I find this conversation as a whole to be a really good one, so thanks for opening up the thread, OP!

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Retratserif » Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:25 am

Algol wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:27 pm
IC rumors and slander are perfectly fine tools to utilize, and in itself an act of interacting with the said group in my opinion. If someone can make up something about a character and manage to convince other characters about it, it has potential to generate some interesting RP.
I respect your opinion here. But totally disagree. When it runs off new players... or even some that been around a while... nothing good comes from it. There is nothing fun about losing everything. Especially before you even get started. Most groups small groups cannot handle it. Again. When there is no RP behind it. Its just negative. With some player/characters having way more influence than others, there is nothing the victims can do. Many times the RP is ignored. Allowing the influenced, not the influencer, to go at them.

I get it if there was some, reason behind it. Or a way to have an outcome that does not result in total loss of a faction before it even has chance to contend. That is even if they want to contend. At times... these factions are purposely avoiding political game, and districts, so the do not have to be bothered with such nonsense. Yet. It still happens.

This is the part where someone has to decide... why are they really doing this? Just like pvp. Is this fun? How is this going to effect the other player/players? Will they find any joy in this? What am I gaining out of this? What are they gaining out of this?

I have yet... to see, anyone victim to this... say... Yeah that was fun. I just lost everything my and my friends worked for... for nothing... And dont even know why. Yep. Lets do it again.

*Rolls eyes*

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Itikar » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:00 am

IanPatron wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:31 pm
Said no cleric of Vhaeraun or Priestess of Eilistrae.
Eilistraeeans have a minimal presence in the Underdark, in the lore, and the server has a strict policy on good and/or surface monsters.

Vhaerunites do not suffer really particular problems in Andunor, that I can tell, and neither does any other evil faith. Their main problem is with the surface policy in regard to monsters which limits their activity there.
-XXX- wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:44 pm
But those are religious sects on the fringe of UD society. They are meant to be secretive and in hiding.
Vhaerunites have robust and open presence in some drow cities in the lore. Menzo is only an example of a drow city, and it is clearly not the best one to match Andunor, by any stretch. Those faiths have an element that allows and encourages secrecy, but they are also meant to be practiced openly in the appropriate context. There is more than one way to play them.

But again I don't see Vhaerunites as being really in a bad spot in Andunor right now, and from quite a while really.

Also, why is Ghaunadaur always forgotten and left out? :P

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by IanPatron » Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:28 am

Ghaunadaur is more tolerated, that's why I changed my idea from a priest of Vhaeraun to a champion of Ghaunadaur.

Just as a side note, in the books Lolth refers to Ghaunadaur as a "festering boil, who disappears, only to come back again"

So at most Lolth sees him as an irritant. Where as she openly despises her children.

And yes, Vhaeraunites are in a bad spot right now, just as bad as before. I saw two females openly worshiping Vhaeraun. They disappeared, but I can only speculate how or why or even if.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by xf1313 » Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:19 am

I saw a eilistrae follower one time, captured by another drow. It is back to the same statement, UD player really only have this one place to go. I would love to see the inter-drow religion conflict, but at current state it is unlikely to happen. Any good monsters are easily spotted and dealt with...

A good monster is on my to-play list, but only if I figure out how to pull that off in UD

Vhaeraunite in bad position is just something that should not happen...really not. That is official drow religion
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by IanPatron » Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:39 am

Vhaeraunites in a bad position... okay no.


more like not possible.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by ActionReplay » Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:00 am

From what i understand people want something new, something separate from Andunor. The thing is we can't just create a new settlement dedicated to XYZ race only. There are many races and groups in the UD and their popularity and activity comes and goes. If we make a place a niche group can hang out, it may be used for a while only to be left inactive again at some point.

If we thematically made this place for this specific group its basically gonna go stale at some point and no other group can pick it up because its dedicated to that one group before them. Of course we can make something generic, I am not sure what the alternative would be perhaps like a smaller settlement but we do have that in the form of the Trading Post which could be expanded upon (Which IG did recently).

Though, thinking about it, perhaps just expanding Andunor with a couple neutral areas that are not district related and, instead, focus on housing, is enough.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Quidix » Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:23 am

I'm not sure more settlements will help. Racial ones are bound to go inactive / stale. And another settlement just becomes similar to a 4th district? Even as is, Andunor's population is spread thin across 3 districts, and there is limited reason to visit districts. I'd favour changes which makes the district more attractive to visit (e.g. two-way portals near district houses, favourable NPC merchants to use, 1-2 temp shops each, hike tax rates in the hub / fix the neutral areas which appears exempt like Arcanum, Threadstone, shops in buildings in the Wheels)

In terms of neutral ground, does places like Threadstone Locks / Shadovar / Wharfdown / Sibayad not serve much of this purpose? (they have housing, bank, messenger, shops, some NPC merchants) If there are specific things missing, might it not be better to improve and expand on those areas first? For neutral ground, isn't non-settlements a better route?

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by -XXX- » Wed Jul 20, 2022 9:25 am

Itikar wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:00 am
-XXX- wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:44 pm
But those are religious sects on the fringe of UD society. They are meant to be secretive and in hiding.
Vhaerunites have robust and open presence in some drow cities in the lore.
I'd like to ask you to provide a referrence or a quotation for that as it's not something that I've been able to find.
Itikar wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:00 am
Those faiths have an element that allows and encourages secrecy, but they are also meant to be practiced openly in the appropriate context. There is more than one way to play them.
Both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun have a very strong theme revolving around their rebellion agains Lolth. Without Lolth in the setting they would've been pointless, while Lolth would have been just fine without them. They are great for linear storylines (be it a novel or a PnP campaign) where a rebellion can rise up, cast down their oppressors and usher in change. They are also a very poor fit for a PW where such narratives are very rare (as ushering in a change on this scale without a strong endorsement from the Team can be quite challenging).
Here they are at the fringe of what's already fringe, incompatible with everything and a bad fit overall.

Personally, I have a hard time reconciling with why a drow player character can select a deity like Eilistraee, when players are explicitly forbidden from playing Drizzt clones. While there's certainly more nuance to it, players have been consistently and without fail demonstrating why this is a problem for a very long time now.
Disable Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as a selectable deity for PCs (it's not like there wouldn't be enough other gods to choose from) = one problem less to worry about
Itikar wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:00 am
Also, why is Ghaunadaur always forgotten and left out? :P
Ghaunadaur permiates Arelith's Underdark and its history. I do agree that Andunor (or at least the drow themed parts of it) would benefit greatly from taking more after Llurth Dreier than Menzoberanzan

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by acey14 » Wed Jul 20, 2022 9:53 am

I think, stronger enforcement of the "Neutral areas" might help with the worrying amount of vendetta PVP we do see in the Underdark. The other thing that might help, is expansion and development of neutral grounds that people can move to, when the going gets tough for them in Andunor. Finally, while I accept that the Underdark needs to be a dangerous place, in my experience, it might be too dangerous. There is, above all this, the current issue of PVP culture on Arelith, at present (But this isn't necessarily restricted to Andunor, and I've seen it elsewhere)

I've seen a worrying amount of players, driven off, for transgressions that I honestly felt had so little RP behind them. And while, RPwise, it might have been justified from one side of the conflict, my general experience, helping people on the otherside, is complete bafflement and awe at what they can do, as while fabrications and lies can be good RP, there is very little you can do if one side has kitted out for PVP and is out for blood, and the other is trying to have a "At least let my character live in peace" and are often starting fledgling factions without having reached a stage where they can realistically mount a fightback. (That's not to say I haven't seen good conflicts, or this sort of conflict come to a bloodless resolution, but its entirely down to the players involved, and has, in most cases, ended up causing mental anguish to both sides of the conflict, so much so, I'm not sure if its really... Good RP, even when done well.). The issue fundamentally being, it can be very hard to create interactive RP, with completely outlandish accusations, if people don't have some wriggle room, to RP out of conflict, or RP to some, even if unhappy, resolution, that allows them to continue what they were doing, even if it means being generally hated.

Andunors biggest strength is its compactness, it brings together RP, forces people to meet each other and does, sometimes, force conflict resolution. The issue also being that Andunor is so compact, that if you gather enough of yourself and a few friends, with strong PVP builds, properly kitted out gear, you can, keeping completely within the rules as they stand, drive characters (And often, players with them) out of the Underdark.

And for some characters, Andunor is "The end of the road". A Drow cannot relocate, particularly well. Sibayad is not favourable (To monsters). Treadstone is owned by settlements and so on. The Hub isn't a neutral place, as it currently stands, or at least, not consistently so. All the settlements, at some point or another, have tried to enforce their own district laws in the Hub, and each time this happens, resentment spreads, and vendetta's end up forming. But there's nothing that can be done, and often attempts to dodge this enforcement can end up in constant and repetitive (Often unwinnable) PVP, with little recourse available to the players involved. I also want to briefly highlight, that the "Definitive Drow Policy", which is still listed as required reading for being a Drow, encourages the sort of Drow RP, that we agree on this forum, ends up getting PVPed anyway, something troublesome to ponder for newer players.

I think there needs to be a level of protection, and an expansion of non-settlement areas outside of Andunor, like Treadstone, Shadowvar and so on. Some of the PVP stuff is a culture issue, and one that isn't going to be resolved just by a rule change, or assertion, but through time and effort, most likely on behalf of everyone involved on this server, in the Underdark and beyond. But, I do think the rules on PVP need to be clearer and maybe be more proactive, considering the recent upsurge in various vendetta fuelled character conflicts, often against factions who are just starting out. I don't think more settlements would help, because it would spread the problem we have now, onto more settlements, rather than dealing with the root cause.

To conclude? I don't think there's an easy solution, I don't think just doing one of these things solves all the issues. But I do think Andunor's compactness is a blessing, and a curse, one that without the right enforcement, seems to have the potential to constantly devolve into Andunor coming to have an uncanny similarity to Udos. Conversely? The right level of enforcement could lead to Andunor being a far more interesting place to have face-offs, one where firing the gun of PVP because "Its what my character would do, and they have the power to" would throw the glaring reminder that they are not the be all and end all. They are under the Hub Master, Freth, Claddath and (I forget the Duergar one, sorry), and it might just create a fascinating power dynamic for players to work through, that rewards more intensive and interactive RP. My two cents, sorry for the longpost.
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Watchful Glare » Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:02 am

ActionReplay wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:00 am
From what i understand people want something new, something separate from Andunor. The thing is we can't just create a new settlement dedicated to XYZ race only. There are many races and groups in the UD and their popularity and activity comes and goes. If we make a place a niche group can hang out, it may be used for a while only to be left inactive again at some point.

If we thematically made this place for this specific group its basically gonna go stale at some point and no other group can pick it up because its dedicated to that one group before them. Of course we can make something generic, I am not sure what the alternative would be perhaps like a smaller settlement but we do have that in the form of the Trading Post which could be expanded upon (Which IG did recently).

Though, thinking about it, perhaps just expanding Andunor with a couple neutral areas that are not district related and, instead, focus on housing, is enough.

My two cents having played in the UD a long time.

1- There's nowhere to go.

There's (sans very few exceptions) a tradition to go to extremes when dealing with enemies. Meaning when one character/faction is defeated, they are presented with the options of ceasing to exist or leave. I have seen it happen maybe... eight times now. Sometimes it doesn't even end there. I've seen the old character resurface, and new characters from old players 1-line killbash them because "someone told them they did bad things in the past".

"Leaving" for a monster race, when a character might not even have Disguise as a class skill, or means to avoid Scrying, is an impossibility. Sure you could leave, but Andunor (and the hub) is where the RP is and where you meet other characters.

Proposed solution:
A second hub elsewhere, like in the Upper Trading post. Same amenities. Different flavor. All traders, portal, bank, writ-giver, messenger. ICly under different jurisdiction. Gracklstugh maybe? This to justify why whoever is currently the Big Guys in the Hub and affiliated factions cannot go one portal away and killbash everyone in the area too, even if they've won/displaced whoever they were in conflict with. It does not have to be a racially segregated place. It can work just like the Andunor hub does.

2- There are no rules nor laws, enforced or otherwise.

While good on paper, this means the Law is what me and my other ten battle ready friends decide it is. And we don't have to be fair about it. We can if we feel inclined to, but we don't have to. And the Peacekeepers are not going to help you when we get our hands on you. The "trade city" cries are always very... unreliable, and usually ineffective. This has been the way of Andunor since I've memory. The Hub is only a safe space only in-sofar as we could enforce that and make it so any acts of violence on the Hub would be retaliated at by player characters, not the Peacekeepers, because they don't care. Never have. Never will. It's unenforceable.

What are they going to do, remove your Hub portal access? You'd just use the Slums one and walk one more transition from it, like any other surfacer.

Let alone the fact that there are nuances and ten sides to every story and conflict to ever happen in the hub for players not to get their knickers in a twist about it if a DM ever (through Peacekeeper) 'takes a side'.

Proposed solution:
A set of actual laws with tangible, feared consequences for a place like Andunor. Something to navigate around, bribe about, or do something with. Might Makes Right works well. For a spat. Until it's been me and my goons for a year, or more. This is also I would apply to other Surface Settlements to prevent certain things from happening again, but focusing on the UD for now.

Character breaking said laws? They receive a magical mark from the Hubmaster. Mysterious in origin. The more marks you acquire, eventually when you die within the city of Andunor your soul is taken, preventing resurrection. The only way of getting rid of the mark is working to enforce the laws of the city yourself, working for the city's benefit and making the city richer.

This also ensures it's repeated behaviour and not a one-off time thing that has a mountain crashing down on some unfortunate soul. It also gives a RP reason and an OOC reason for the character wanting to cooperate and do better that won't make them look like a wuss, which is what many care about IC and OOC as well.


3- Real life morality seeping into the game

This is probably the worst. It wasn't like this when I begun playing in UD but it has seeped in steadily. Lately it's not as bad, but once this behaviour becomes the norm the line between IC and OOC are blurred and it starts a domino effect. With few exceptions (Again, lately there are new factions like the Marauders doing neat things) there has been a tangible neutrality/good aligned feeling to it. For instance slavery, even groups that followed Vhaeraun would be against slavery, because slavery bad. Drow defending elves, and the elven blooded. Because they're-not-like-all-the-other-drow (except they are), and they are progressive.

Cultural norms, historical biases, experiences and traits the drow are given even on the wiki page here are ignored due to the abeformentioned, ("I come from Skullport haha"), all of which is ultimately diluted into "I'm playing a human with onyx skin and pointy ears" and at that point I wonder if they even know what a drow is, if they are interested in interpreting one in any way that has anything of their culture represented aside from elven physiology and skin color, or they're just picking it for the stats (or the snowflake bait of being the not-like-the-other-drow!).

The more I think on this the more I think Drow should be award locked. The way Wild Elf went.

Of all the UD races it's the only one that is jarring to see so misrepresented on such a frequent basis it's both a relieving and strange experience to meet another character that has you go "Oh, this. This is a drow." and then you realise you haven't seen one in a long, long time.

On the human side, even though they are supposed to be outcasts, equivalent to war criminals that have done terrible things I have only ever seen one make use of that background lore on his character and bring it to the RP. There are consequently many others which whom I've felt it was only a 'UD Tax' taking the Outcast tag at character creation.

Proposed solution:
Like slaves, characters starting in Andunor must be of Evil Alignment, regardless of race. Drow are moved to Award Race.
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Watchful Glare » Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:19 am

acey14 wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 9:53 am
Long text
This is a well put together post.
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Nurel » Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:31 am

Watchful Glare wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:02 am
Proposed solution:
Like slaves, characters starting in Andunor must be of Evil Alignment, regardless of race. Drow are moved to Award Race.
Surely some races restricted to Andunor need to have the option to be neutral (or even good), but in the current Arelith landscape you can pretty much play any monster you like and not be evil.

Specifically Mino, Drow, Duergar, Kobold, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Orog, Rakshasa, Troglodyte, Ogre, Derro. These races are canonically evil, not neutral with the option to be evil or vice versa.

People love playing as Drow, so making this race an award altogether will be very discouraging to dedicated Andunor players. Instead I suggest making each of the aforementioned races Evil-Only, and available as neutral only through the use of an award.

Perhaps then you would have more evil PCs in Andunor and less cuddly immersion breaking drow roleplaying "why do you hate me, I'm just a elf".

I tried Andunor but my evil PC was kinda being forced into a mold of not being evil in order to not be hated by the other denizens of Andunor. I did not like playing a semi-evil monster so I ended up never developing that character as much as I'd initially intended.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Royal Blood » Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:25 pm

I feel like the server, whether surface or UD, like constantly yearns for more... Narrative direction? Right now, things are pretty sandboxy which opens everything to the interpretation individual players. I kinda like sandboxy and I think if there was a heavier narrative road then people would gripe about it being too restrictive. So there's no way to win.

I think the only thing you can do as a player is be the presence you want to be IC and let others have the chance to follow. It's super easy to go around and spot RP that maybe someone things is .... Not scene appropriate or that's not how a real drow/ monster would act etc... But the only way to show anything different is to RP as that difference.

Personally, I don't think sweeping revamps of Andunor will fix anything. It's the players and play styles in Andunor. Another UD settlement will just be the private cloister of the first group to run to it in mass and I suspect would either end up like Surface Wharftown or just be a non-existent hub.

I'd reiterate that I think what Andunor needs is an overall city leader with PC peacekeepers. Or JUST the PC peacekeepers. The PC cordor guard, Brog, Bendir, etc all of those settlements rely on player intervention to maintain an overall like moral spectrum. Cordor doesn't (frequently) have pvp in the streets because DMs use the guards (they don't.) Rather, Cordor doesn't have pvp in the streets because there are high level guard PCs sitting there and a city wide governing body that can enforce consequences

I think by the time this forum runs it's course the only conclusion we'll be left with is that sometimes your character gets pushed out and you gotta start a new concept. Sometimes Andunor isn't nice. And people's ideas of what is acceptable UD RP are all different and we'll just have to put up with each other and try to find engaging/fun narratives that respect the setting while accommodating different like interpretations.
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:49 pm

I know this isn't exactly a comprehensive reply, but districts being mentally reserved for specific races is one of the biggest things hindering roleplay, not helping it.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Edens_Fall » Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:58 pm

Watchful Glare wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:02 am
Stuff
A well written post. I like the idea of turning the upper trade post into a second, yet seperate Hub. Expand the area with a temp shops and a bit more housing and bam!

Also a basic set of laws for Andunor handed down by the NPC factions would be helpful. As you said, currently its might makes right and I have seen several factions / players driven away from Andunor with polices of over whelming PvP force and social IG slander. If your a solo player or small faction there is no way to counter this. Even taking the defeat and pleading for peace ends with the opposition demanding you leave or take a collar. Finding peace or a middle ground hardly works in the UD due to the extremes of politics there.

xf1313
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by xf1313 » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:46 pm

I think many people made wonderful suggestions. I do not particularly want to see another new settlement, but rather have the current settlements/little towns used. Writ guy is one big npc to have, like, how able have one in a few places that gives different writs? Like on surface, i’d need to visit Bendir, Mimir, Westcliff to get writs.

And I love the two districts, the sharp and devil’s table are both cool, just maybe, a writ npc can be assigned to each one of the district’s local tarven, we still keep the hub, portal service and a social ground, just no longer taking writ there. And those who is rping rivalries or dedicated followers of one district can do it better.

Plus, more tarven rooms for players to live in XD
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HeyLadyOfDecay
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by HeyLadyOfDecay » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:16 pm

You know what would be a good idea though? a second slave auction house. in like Dis.
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-XXX-
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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by -XXX- » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:20 pm

Royal Blood wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:25 pm
I feel like the server, whether surface or UD, like constantly yearns for more... Narrative direction? Right now, things are pretty sandboxy which opens everything to the interpretation individual players. I kinda like sandboxy and I think if there was a heavier narrative road then people would gripe about it being too restrictive. So there's no way to win.
Well, yes. There's a craving for a narrative direction because characters have become a little too independent. There aren't many things that would be an objective problem for a single character, much less for an entire group of characters.
This narrows down the list of potential plots to seamlessly drive RP.

Furthermore, the sandboxy nature can easily lead to a "too many cooks have spoiled the meal" sort of situation, especially after multiple players start adding their own sandboxy elements to the mix.
There need to be at least some firmly established things for RP to stand on, otherwise it could all fall apart. Suspension of disbelief goes only so far, especially when confronted with experiences from more casually situated gameplay.
Also, once we acknowledge that accepting some makebelief fantasies can be more advantageous for some characters than for others, it all flies out of the window.


Just a simple example: frequently reoccuring player driven plot, character feels sick and friends gather to help. It usually takes about 2 seconds before the player running it finds themselves explaining and inventing excuses why the offered (and fully mechanically supported) "miracle balm" won't work this time around, rather than focusing on telling their story. It's also not uncommon for other players to simply bail on the entire affair at that point.

So I wonder, where do things like that usually go wrong? Is it that the player running the event didn't think things through beforehand? Is it that they're insisting on their own sandboxy ideas making a problem for others to solve in a desired way out of something that's being solved casually on regular basis elswhere? Is it the other players and their reluctance to be a good sport about being relegated to the role of a passive spectator rather than being able to influence the outcome?
Last edited by -XXX- on Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Is Andunor Needed Anymore

Post by Royal Blood » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:28 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:20 pm
Royal Blood wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:25 pm
I feel like the server, whether surface or UD, like constantly yearns for more... Narrative direction? Right now, things are pretty sandboxy which opens everything to the interpretation individual players. I kinda like sandboxy and I think if there was a heavier narrative road then people would gripe about it being too restrictive. So there's no way to win.
Well, yes. There's a craving for a narrative direction because characters have become a little too independent. There aren't many things that would be an objective problem for a single character, much less for an entire group of characters.
This narrows down the list of potential plots to seamlessly drive RP.

Furthermore, the sandboxy nature can easily lead to a "too many cooks have spoiled the meal" sort of situation, especially after multiple players start adding their own sandboxy elements to the mix.
There need to be at least some firmly established things for RP to stand on, otherwise it could all fall apart. Suspension of disbelief goes only so far, especially when confronted with experience from more casually situated gameplay.


Just a simple example: frequently reoccuring player driven plot, character feels sick and friends gather to help. It usually takes about 2 seconds before the player running it finds themselves explaining and inventing excuses why the offered (and fully mechanically supported) "miracle balm" won't work this time around, rather than focusing on telling their story. It's also not uncommon for other players to simply bail on the entire affair at that point.

So I wonder, where do things like that usually go wrong? Is it that the player running the event didn't think things through beforehand? Is it that they're insisting on their own sandboxy ideas making a problem for others to solve in a desired way out of something that's being solved casually on regular basis elswhere? Is it the other players and their reluctance to be a good sport about being relegated to the role of a passive spectator rather than being able to influence the outcome?
I agree with this but everytime there's narrative enforcement it's met, in my opinion, harshly by players.

I do strongly agree that a much stronger narrative foundation provided by DMs and Admins would be hugely beneficial. But I don't think they will. And if they do, I think there is a fair chunk of the player base that would be turned off by it.

I strongly enjoyed DM Wish for that kinda stuff. Small things that just expanded into stories and set precedents and provided that narrative back bone. But I also saw explosive reactions from players who felt like it was getting in their way. Which I think is a dumb argument. It's DND and it's a DM doing what DMs do. But that's not the culture the server has.
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I do not win, I do not lose.
I tell a story, and when I'm lucky,
Play a part in the story you tell too.

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