Is Andunor Needed Anymore

[magistrasa]

I think Ork has a point in that there is more that players can do to cultivate alternative roleplay venues - pointing to prominent examples of how it's been done in the past. And I do generally agree with the sentiment. As jaded as we tend to be in the community, the truth is that the world does, in fact, respond to player actions. With enough momentum and interest, anyone can create their own unique base for roleplay... in theory.

The thing is, it's a hard sell to get people to buy into a "temple" that's just a bunch of chairs and tables. Investing your time and energy into repurposing an area outside of what's clearly its intended design purpose is an exercise in frustration and futility. The truth is, we're not working with blank slates. The world exists outside of the players, and it's natural for people to see these efforts and think to themselves, "You're starting a new druid grove at the Weatherstone? Why the heck would you do a thing like that?"

And that's where developer direction helps to grease the wheels and enable player creativity. The Heartwood Grove doesn't have any amenities beyond a couple shops and a bunch of quarters, but it's designed on multiple fronts in such a way that you can tell players are intended to invest themselves into the environment. No portal, no vendors, no writ giver, yet you can reliably run into people there just hanging out and experiencing a shared narrative together. The location is pretty clearly designed to foster player-led efforts to cultivate roleplay of a particular theme. The Underdark just doesn't have very many of those kinds of places outside of Andunor. Heck, I feel like it doesn't even really have that many IN Andunor.

[Ork]

Here's the issue: people are concerned there is no where else but Andunor to roleplay. That isn't true. You can occupy a lot of other places like saltspar or treadstone or convert an area with fixtures like the Horde use to do. But, that isn't what people want to hear. It isn't disingenuous. It's just lazy.

no, here's the issue: show some actual respect for your fellow players. it isn't lazy and you've gone past rude and so far beyond "be nice" that I don't know why you come here besides to throw your weight around.

treadstone is andunor, 1 gondola or portal click away. there are no new laws, no protections that exist there that make it a viable alternative.

I come here to combat the notion that you require "amenities" to roleplay. Invest in a location. A few years ago players started to solely roleplay inside Thormind's shop in Cordor. Formerly it was a lifeless, vacant area that you only went to do the delivery quest or change clothes colors. Players invested in it. Roleplayed in it. Suddenly it became a stopping place for hundreds of characters.

Invest in a location and they will come. Don't invest in a location, and I guess come on to the forums to gripe about how you don't have a location equal to the hub. Protections are all an illusion anyways. No where is safe, be it the hub, 4 zones away from the hub, or on the surface. The hub has 0 laws. I don't understand.

That said, I do think design does have a place here too. If I was in charge of designing anything, I'd delete the hub portal and move portal access into the districts because I think those areas should have the thoroughfare.

[HeyLadyOfDecay]

Here's the issue: people are concerned there is no where else but Andunor to roleplay. That isn't true. You can occupy a lot of other places like saltspar or treadstone or convert an area with fixtures like the Horde use to do. But, that isn't what people want to hear. It isn't disingenuous. It's just lazy.

no, here's the issue: show some actual respect for your fellow players. it isn't lazy and you've gone past rude and so far beyond "be nice" that I don't know why you come here besides to throw your weight around.

treadstone is andunor, 1 gondola or portal click away. there are no new laws, no protections that exist there that make it a viable alternative.

I come here to combat the notion that you require "amenities" to roleplay. Invest in a location. A few years ago players started to solely roleplay inside Thormind's shop in Cordor. Formerly it was a lifeless, vacant area that you only went to do the delivery quest or change clothes colors. Players invested in it. Roleplayed in it. Suddenly it became a stopping place for hundreds of characters.

Invest in a location and they will come. Don't invest in a location, and I guess come on to the forums to gripe about how you don't have a location equal to the hub. Protections are all an illusion anyways. No where is safe, be it the hub, 4 zones away from the hub, or on the surface. The hub has 0 laws. I don't understand.

That said, I do think design does have a place here too. If I was in charge of designing anything, I'd delete the hub portal and move portal access into the districts because I think those areas should have the thoroughfare.

Nah, Don't do portals, add Saltspar as a gondola option, screw portals. And yes, remove the hub portal, That might be intresting.

[Azensor]

The hub has 0 laws. I don't understand.

Please, try to hellball a mass of people in the hub and remind me how long it takes to get a talking from the dms.

[Naghast]

Wasn't there a drow who had their hub rights revoked (unable to interact with hub NPC's and etc.) For excessive pvp in hub?

[dominantdrowess]

Yes. Multiple persons have had that happen. I've watched Peacekeepers escort someone out of the hub in formation before. It happens. Don't hell ball in the hub. That's a hard line.

[Whosdis]

I really think the nature of a divided city-state where you can be hunted in one district but rule in another is a fascinating idea, as well as the concept of districts being at odds with one another. Honestly, Andunor is a great idea, a bit undercut by a few things.
1: The city needs a new expansion: Not necessarily more zones or districts, but the districts need to be expanded a bit. You have a LOT of players with a pretty scarce amount of housing.
2: The outcast system is needlessly restricted. Ork might (rightfully) butt heads with me as we discussed this in another head (and it might be that me and my friends are the exception that prove the rule and that he's right all along), but I don't like how starting outcast is restricted by race, and I don't like how exiles (which settlements are VERY niggardly in doling out because they can just PVP killbash you without using settlement mechanics anyway) are required for the status. I really think DM's should arbitrate to allow Outcasting on easier terms. This of course also hearkens to the Surface being pretty dreadful for evil RP, like it or not. There are characters that sneak around and make sure LEVELLING CHARACTERS don't slip up, and some are very, very zealous about it.
On top of that, in terms of execution:
1: This plays into the need for more housing, but I feel like there's not enough open areas to just sit and RP in within Andunor. It should not be a whole bunch of rock from building to building, but there's nowhere to really sit and just casually RP in outside. No sitting areas, no macabre parks.
2: The aesthetic in general is pretty dull by now. Whether it's glowing crystals or alien flora, I think there are ways to make the Underdark area look at least a bit more visually interesting .
3: Any lingering Underdark levelling complaints if there are any.

On the quasi-off-topic topic of settlement conflicts, I feel like it's rather silly to restrict them. Granted, I'm not a DM who has to deal with the fallout drama, but I would rather have the conflict be possible and have idiots butt heads over silly drama than have the in-game world be static. The more restricted it is, the more it will feel like pointless RP in any run-of-the-mill MMORPG.

[Retratserif]

Yes the Underdark needs nearly double the housing.

The idea of open bounties on players is horrid. Currently The Underdark is not RP it's Pvp. I don't mean all combat.
Due the the system in place, current allowed and meaningless oppression I am stepping away.

Much of the issues are as much player based as non functional City design. It was most likely an upgrade from the past. But compared to Guldorand... It's more than just sad. You have more housing in one city than the whole Underdark.

Mechanically...

Temples, arenas, shops and npc's being restricted by unwarranted rules, laws, and exiles prevents a ton of content.

Funneling everyone through a tiny area is a major issue

There just are not many ways to avoid certain players or groups.


Player wise.

With the current rules in place, anyone for any reason rightfully or not can skirt the rules. Totally destroying a character or faction with no RP at all. There is not enough rough to avoid it. This sets the theme for power gamers and meta players to totally rule.

Until things are changed, I think I will mostly inactive. Personally I do not find the current UD environment fun.

I wish it the best of luck.

[Ork]

With the current rules in place, anyone for any reason rightfully or not can skirt the rules. Totally destroying a character or faction with no RP at all. There is not enough rough to avoid it. This sets the theme for power gamers and meta players to totally rule.

I doubt this especially considering your circumstances. Your interpretation of the rules and the DMs might differ, but it is ultimately the DMs that decide what falls within the rules or not. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they're skirting the rules.

[Retratserif]

That is just it.

This has happened. A lot. And involving the same factions over and over. Players quitting. Groups disbanding before they even get close to level 30 or establishing themselves in some instances.

There are countless records of this. Being that much of everything is not transparent. The player base has no official record of what groups/characters are being reported and for what. Not that I think they should be public.

Your right. It is something I don't like. And some do things that are clearly against rules like "Okay nice" or "RP it first" but that is never the case. If anything, it seems that is what is being pushed. So. I just do my best to avoid it. Though when it goes on so long and nothing is done RP wise to back it, no RP to fix it, it ruins the immersion.

The Underdark is so small. And power groups have way to much control. If your not in their discord, you best just stay out of the way.

Being that most of the PvP is in the Hub. The rest is preplanned raids. Yes some is obviously done in game. But when 2 or 3 major factions log in and ward up with a single focus... Smash.

Again. This is the way it is. This leaves no room for a casual player to be part of anything as long as the OOC/Meta corruption insues. If there were non pvp area's and housing that may help.

I don't know the fix. I just think Andunor is way too small. Not nearly enough housing. Even less guild housing. And way to player operated.

[Ork]

I don't even know what you're talking about with "okay nice" or "RP it first". I've heard countless times "PEOPLE ARE LEAVING" and "GROUPS ARE QUITTING!" as if this is some terrible, horrible bad thing. On the contrary, GOOD! I think if players are not having fun in an environment or narrative or with other players they should quit.

You're also not a good witness of information yourself as you've a litany of biases impacting how you percieve certain groups or actions done by these groups. Honestly, and I say this with the best intentions, if you think we need no-pvp zones — maybe arelith isn't for you. If you're not enjoying it here, that's about all you can do.

[Jan Skorvo]

That is just it.
Being that most of the PvP is in the Hub. The rest is preplanned raids. Yes some is obviously done in game. But when 2 or 3 major factions log in and ward up with a single focus... Smash.

Some pvp is in the hub, you are correct about this, but the idea of preplanned raids is completely incorrect. Most if not all underdark raids in the past four or so months have been completely done ingame with no ooc communication whatsoever. On top of that, it's not a single cohesive faction but a collection of smaller factions and whoever wanted to join in at the time. If you interact with people and explicitly ask to be involved in the rp, there's a pretty high chance you can get in.

[AskRyze]

So I'm going to mention a couple points.

1: The city needs a new expansion: Not necessarily more zones or districts, but the districts need to be expanded a bit. You have a LOT of players with a pretty scarce amount of housing.

Yes the Underdark needs nearly double the housing.
...
Much of the issues are as much player based as non functional City design. It was most likely an upgrade from the past. But compared to Guldorand... It's more than just sad. You have more housing in one city than the whole Underdark.
...
Funneling everyone through a tiny area is a major issue

There just are not many ways to avoid certain players or groups.

With regard to those very last two lines: I think that's the point of Andunor, to have that melting pot, to have that trade hub where everyone must by necessity mingle. And I think that's a good thing, because it keeps the UD from feeling like Guldorand.

Why do I bring up Guldorand in specific? Well, I play at odd hours, usually NA downtimes where there aren't a lot of people around. Sometimes weekday mornings, often after 10pm on other days. And I've been to Guldorand. Do you know what I see?

It's certainly not players. But what it *is*, is a lot of occupied housing from people I don't see walking around.

Granted, I accept that I don't get to play during 'big uptime' but it's a complaint I've heard from a lot of my friends: They don't like Guldorand, and they don't like it because it feels like a ghost town. Sure there are NPCs, sure there's every amenity you could think of, but no one goes there, no onestays there unless by some miracle they own a quarter, and it's so big you could have ten players all wandering around at once and they might not even see each other. That's a complaint I hear about most of the surface actually - It's so big and shiny and new and you never see anyone else. Maybe you find another player once, but odds are unless you metagame and coordinate OOC you're never going to run into them again, unless you're in one of the old areas that deliberately funnel players through choke points, like Cordor and Sibayad...And Andunor.

If people want to see big changes in Andunor, the first thing they're going to have to do is actually make the districts see use. And I do mean the existing district facilities. Host a book club in the Devil's Table Library. Host a feast in the Sharps gathering hall, I know it has the space for it. Do something in Greyport if the walk isn't enough to scare you off. Devs aren't going to spend their time painstakingly laboring over areas just to have them languish, all the quarters and shops occupied, the only people who ever visit only there to check for vacancies or cheap Greater Headbags. Yes, there is a housing crisis in Andunor, but there's a housing crisis all over the server because we've got a good couple thousand players and not even 1/5th of that in terms of housing, and everyone wants a piece of the pie.

I implore you: Use what you already have before you ask for new shiny. Just like Guldorand, you can only enjoy ripping the cling wrap off a new glass table once, and once it's been peeled away you realize it's just another glass table like the rest of them, only twice as big and used half as much. The novelty will fade and it will be another area for players to complain that there aren't vacancies over because their name isn't on a signpost.

[Whosdis]

Excuse any mistakes in the following insomnia post from my phone.

I think it's somewhat misleading to compare it to Guldorand in particular: I put Andunor as kind of an equivalent to Cordor, and I think Cordor doesn't have it so bad.

It's kind of multifaceted: Quarters are a nice space to RP (especially for those who have nice noble tokens who want to oggle nice things), but you don't need quarters in particular. You have the campfire on Cordor, you have the fountain in Guldorand, you have the stream in the Elven quarter. Now, these cities are hardly perfect and they could have a more functional design themselves, but they have some outdoor amenities aside from their taverns. You have the Hub and Spider, but where is anything outside to linger?

Now, on top of Ork's suggestion of having district portals instead of a giant Hub one, I think encouraging foot traffic and RP spots is a good way to keep a city pretty alive feeling. Where are you going to do that in Andunor? I mean anyone can force it, but there's no "oh look we could sit under that alien looking mushroom over there", "oh look let's step over these corpses to sit by the crystal gardens over there", "oh look let's have a conversation under these eldritch depictions of dark gods", it's just stone and walkways. Very bland.

Certainly people can try their might and hope fixture limits, griefing, and just generally space work out. I might be amenable to that when the situation permits. But Andunor feels like it has a dearth of usable space to me, and that's compiled by the housing issue.

Now, like I said, I can't go through with that right now, but I've got an idea for outside Andunor some!

[Retratserif]

I don't even know what you're talking about with "okay nice" or "RP it first". I've heard countless times "PEOPLE ARE LEAVING" and "GROUPS ARE QUITTING!" as if this is some terrible, horrible bad thing. On the contrary, GOOD! I think if players are not having fun in an environment or narrative or with other players they should quit.

You're also not a good witness of information yourself as you've a litany of biases impacting how you percieve certain groups or actions done by these groups. Honestly, and I say this with the best intentions, if you think we need no-pvp zones — maybe arelith isn't for you. If you're not enjoying it here, that's about all you can do.

I meant "Play Nice". Yeah. That's a rule. And "RP it first".... Means players should actually interact with their planned victims before totally destroying them. It's just a thought. You know... RP with the one your going to send goons after. Or possibly just touch base once a month... Instead of continuing to hold grudges for nothing.

When players are being harassed and feel victimized... Especially for reasons unknown, which is typically OOC reasons, it should be looked at.

"On the contrary, GOOD! I think if players are not having fun in an environment or narrative or with other players they should quit"

I totally disagree with that. That in my opinion is a horrid way to look at things. From what I have seen, it's a very one sided thing. If a large group of players that have nearly infinite resources, influence and experience choose to smash a few casual gamers... It is accepted. And the victim continues to be victimized. Nearly 6 months later. When by characters that were not even a thought yet... But the victims should just quit. If that's the case... Don't report. Just quit. Hrm?

There are no PvP zones. And certain area's have titles. The Hub being one. Though a majority of the UD kills happen there.

Yes... My opinion is biased. That's what am opinion is... From my experience and from what other very concerned have told me, the issue is not totally the City design nor PvP being available. It's that there is a very clear difference between the everyday player and those that been here for some time, or those that are very close to those groups

At times extreme groups are found and dismantled. Yeah. I'm barely passed 1 year playing here. The best RP I have had was on this server. Some of the coolest players as well.

With that being said. As a past community coordinator of a multi gaming clan for many years, with nearly 2000 active players at any given time, I have never seen such disrespectful and blantent disregard for the average player from power groups and other highly influential players.

I also never in all my years of gaming seen this go on with such intensity and be considered ok.

I would never, tell a player they should quit. Perhaps a break. Try a different area. But never quit.

The culture and environment is only fun for those not being victimized. And because those tightly knitted groups will never fall or fail in this current setup, only the DM's can make that change.

[Ork]

A few things:

Play nice isn't a rule. "Be Nice" is in consideration of your fellow players from an OOC context and not directly related to how your character might treat another. You're in the UD, prepare for animosity. It's baked into the setting.

"RP it first" isn't a rule. "Interact before PvP" is, and by your words that seems to be happening. No one is killing characters without interacting in your situation, only that the targets of aggression are confused by why they are being targeted - a situation I frankly don't believe.

There is no rule that an area is immune to PvP. The hub included.

Your opinion might be biases, but you're not stating opinion, you're stating events and the situations surrounding them in a biased light. That isn't an opinion, that's facts being misrepresented.

You've made yourself out to be a victim, but victimization is a pretty serious offense that I'd only reserve for children that are impressionable. Unless that's you, you don't have to subject yourself to unfun scenarios and log off.

Best of luck where ever you're off to.

[Xerah]

I always wonder where this victim stuff comes from. It's so common to be told is an issue, but I've rarely seen it first hand and if it happens, it's not something that lasts for anywhere near 6 months. I just can't even imagine what's happening to cause this.

If someone is doing something that is not fun, they should leave. It's not rude to say so. It's not even intense to say so. If you can't trust the DM team to help you out when these things happen (for whatever reason you think you were wronged, even if its a your personal bias) then I can't imagine why anyone would stick around.

It's that there is a very clear difference between the everyday player and those that been here for some time, or those that are very close to those groups

This is also completely, 100%, untrue. There is no highly influential cabal of players controlling things behind the scenes*. It's actually an extremely disrespectful thing to claim that the team here is playing favorites. I know this violates your theories, but this doesn't happen like you think it does.

When I was on the dev team, did we ignore feedback from people depending on how long they've been here? No, that would be stupid (and a lot of time when don't even know if someone is a long term player or not). But what we did do, is take feedback from reasonable people who could discuss these issues without an emotional bias. Many of those people who could do that have joined the dev team themselves (ex. Kenji). The people that often have unrealistic expectations are the most difficult to deal with because they don't appear to be satisfied until things are exactly the way they want.

I can't speak for the DM team, but I imagine that it is somewhat similar. I urge people to take some time before making a report and let things calm down so you can work with the team when you have a clear head and find a solution.

* - There is a place where people discuss these crazy theories of how people like me are paying off Irongron for favour on the server, which is not something I've ever done (I can't personally speak for the others on that list, but I'm fairly certain that they didn't either). If this is what you're talking about and caught up in then consider this on the level of QAnon type of thing.

[Hazard]

I always wonder where this victim stuff comes from. It's so common to be told is an issue, but I've rarely seen it first hand and if it happens, it's not something that lasts for anywhere near 6 months. I just can't even imagine what's happening to cause this.

If someone is doing something that is not fun, they should leave. It's not rude to say so. It's not even intense to say so. If you can't trust the DM team to help you out when these things happen (for whatever reason you think you were wronged, even if its a your personal bias) then I can't imagine why anyone would stick around.

It's that there is a very clear difference between the everyday player and those that been here for some time, or those that are very close to those groups

This is also completely, 100%, untrue. There is no highly influential cabal of players controlling things behind the scenes*. It's actually an extremely disrespectful thing to claim that the team here is playing favorites. I know this violates your theories, but this doesn't happen like you think it does.

When I was on the dev team, did we ignore feedback from people depending on how long they've been here? No, that would be stupid (and a lot of time when don't even know if someone is a long term player or not). But what we did do, is take feedback from reasonable people who could discuss these issues without an emotional bias. Many of those people who could do that have joined the dev team themselves (ex. Kenji). The people that often have unrealistic expectations are the most difficult to deal with because they don't appear to be satisfied until things are exactly the way they want.

I can't speak for the DM team, but I imagine that it is somewhat similar. I urge people to take some time before making a report and let things calm down so you can work with the team when you have a clear head and find a solution.

* - There is a place where people discuss these crazy theories of how people like me are paying off Irongron for favour on the server, which is not something I've ever done (I can't personally speak for the others on that list, but I'm fairly certain that they didn't either). If this is what you're talking about and caught up in then consider this on the level of QAnon type of thing.

There's always going to be some level of favortism, even if unintentional. It is human nature. It is unavoidable. To deny it as "complete, 100%, untrue" is itself emotional bias, and naive. To compare discussion of favortism to terrorist conspiracy theories is overkill.

If these claims are, as you yourself said "common", then maybe it's worth looking into why they're so common and what can be done to fix the server image.

And he might be wrong about whatever accusations he made, or he might not. Either way, saying there's 0% chance of any favoritism at all is ridiculous. You can say the team does its best to prevent any favoritism, not that there definitely 100% is none.

And he makes some good points, too, about OOC/Meta issues, and discord groups. Denying those are a problem is just denying reality. I don't like the suggestions of no-pvp areas and all that, but I'm not about to call the person crazy for noticing problems that do exist.

[Xerah]

We have a system of balancing 'favoritism' with the RPR rating, those people are often going to carry more weight with what they do in game because they've been shown to be good contributing members of the community and can be trusted by the DM team. If it was only those people, then no one would ever get their RPR raised. What's being commented on is this hidden favoritism bias that is actively out to get people but anyone who believes such is grasping at straws.

This sort of "favoritism" is something that people have accepted when they play here.

And it's not overkill at all; as someone named in these conspiracy theories, they are so wrong but people believe them anyway. It's not emotional bias or naive. People always want to look elsewhere to place blame, which is why it is so common to yell favoritism and find ways to validate their feelings with wild theories of how I paid off Irongron.

[TurningLeaf]

With that being said. As a past community coordinator of a multi gaming clan for many years, with nearly 2000 active players at any given time, I have never seen such disrespectful and blantent disregard for the average player from power groups and other highly influential players.

Not trying to be mean but, there's not even any kind of RMT in this game, leading one to logically conclude you're greatly exaggerating the situation.

[Azensor]

With that being said. As a past community coordinator of a multi gaming clan for many years, with nearly 2000 active players at any given time, I have never seen such disrespectful and blantent disregard for the average player from power groups and other highly influential players.

Not trying to be mean but, there's not even any kind of RMT in this game, leading one to logically conclude you're greatly exaggerating the situation.

RMT has literally 0 to do with what retraserif was talking about...?

[Azensor]

Have you or a loved one been a victim of Discord faction abuse? You may be liable for compensation. Please call 912-touch-grass, again that's 912-touch-grass and get the justice you deserve.

Try to be mature ork, its difficult but i know you can do it.

[TurningLeaf]

RMT has literally 0 to do with what retraserif was talking about...?

The point was, whatever levels of ooc drama / salt / hate he sees in a freeware game, is in the context of a very low stakes environment. I came over here from Albion Online where guild leaders were literally paying their rent from RMT, it's possible you can't even imagine the levels of exploitation, abuse and ooc crapstorms. This is actually a pretty good community.

[Edens_Fall]

It saddens me to see how polarized some individuals are on the topic of favoritism or conspiracies.

I truely believe the team (Admins, Devs, DMs) do their best in regaurds to both.

I also believe people will be people. Even more so when protected by the interwebs anonymous nature. Are thier player factions or groups in Arelith that show favoritism and hold OOC grudges? Absolutely. Has there ever been a time a DM has been removed for doing things they shouldn't? Of course. If RL politicians, law enforcement, military, doctors, etc can suffer from the weakness of human fallibility how can we expect the players or volunteer staff of an internet game to be any different.

Things happen and thus why there is a reporting system in place. Let's keep the negativity and conspiracies there and this thread for the topic at hand yes? There's no need for players (new or old) nor administrators to attack each other over such.

Instead can we look at the topic of Andunor and the many lovely ideas offered towards its improvement?

Please?

[WitchyEvil]

Andunor Improvement Suggestion:

Re-add the Dark Bazaar Zones that were active during the anniversary event permanently. This is a great space for RP and Hosting opportunities, and it seems wasteful to have spent the time building and creating assets to only use it for a single weekend.

And if that's not totally on topic, apologies.