have settlement raid rules changed?

[Ebonstar]

for as long as I have known, settlements of any significance to be raided i.e. more than 2 players needed DM Oversight and could only be done one a week or every two weeks time.

lately attacks have been nearly daily by 8 plus players and npcs and defenses have been ignored, which tells me there is no DM oversight.

When did this pvp rule change if it has?

Do new players not have a clue about 24 hour pvp rules?

Because i have received several tells from attacking players who get caught in the melee die and spawn not having a clue about 24 hours rules or not returning to the place you died and wanting to report murders of themselves.

[neverwinternightly]

Raids
There are two types of raids. Hard raids and soft raids. These rules are only considered in areas with a fair amount of intelligent NPCs, like a village or an outpost. We don’t care if big fights or ambushes happen out in the wilderness.

A hard raid requires permission from the team two weeks in advance through the forums or via email. It targets any area with NPCs and can involve any number of players in an attack. The goal can be unspecific such as ‘slaughter everyone in the area’ or something specific such as ‘save Tim from execution’ or ‘get revenge because Tim was executed’. Dungeon Masters are present for the raid to play as NPCs and to try and keep everything under control and playing smoothly. The requirement for roleplay before pvp is a little more lax and a lot of people will die. The two week timing in advance also lets us plan special effects and other fun content.
A soft raid does not require permission. The characters can not kill NPCs. The only requirement is that the team is alerted in the moment with a message to the /dm channel several times before and during the attack. It has a group between five to seven characters. The characters have a specific goal in mind such as saving their friend, killing a government official or kidnapping someone. Once the goal is completed they must leave immediately. They can not linger with the vague intention of picking a fight with whoever is there, waiting and hoping more show up.
It’s possible for a large group of friends to wind up in a fight. This isn’t a raid or a soft raid. It’s just a big fight. They happen sometimes spontaneously. The difference is whether or not it was planned. If you’re on a mission, keep to the soft raid requirements. If you and twelve friends are just hanging out and get into a fight in the middle of Cordor, that can just happen. Don’t be technical and rules lawyer the situation. If you’re trying to cheese the requirements like, ‘we were just going on a walk into Brogendenstein and ended up killing everyone’ then we’ll know you’re being obtuse on purpose. The difference is very obvious to us, we don’t like rules lawyers and they’re never as clever as they think they are.

We will still be monitoring people properly respecting the presence of NPCs. Those who repeatedly and blatantly fail to respect them will find their RPB lowered, and possibly a MoD given out.

As a reminder, a one-line DM channel notification that a raid is going to happen is not enough. And those continuing to raid without permission will be handed punishments accordingly. We are all attempting to tell a story and have fun, let us not ruin it by breaching the rules.

If NPCs and such aren't being killed, it'd fall into that soft raid category. Rather unlikely you're going to see some clear sign of DM presence in such a thing, but I imagine one is typically there.

The above have been the rules for a while as far as I remember, but if you think anyone is flagrantly breaking them, you can always file a report through the forums!

[In Sorrow We Trust]

some of the raids aren't even going near guards, they're happening on the roads

[Azensor]

is westcliff even a settlement?

[Zavandar]

let's not forget the biggest victim of them all

the surface server

[The GrumpyCat]

some of the raids aren't even going near guards, they're happening on the roads

Then they arn't technically 'raids' they're just 'large attacks'

"I want a large attack where I murder npcs! Burn villages! leave behind grieving widoes and orphans!"
'Ok you need to send an application to the DM team with at least a week, ideally two weeks, notice, to make sure we can get a Dm there."

"A large group of us are going to attack someone who is currently in Cordor/Guldorand/Brog/myon/Bendir/Sibiyad/Skal'
'Ok that's fine. Please send up a message and really and get a Dm to oversee. If you can't then that's not the end of the world, but you should be making the effort, especially if it's very big groups here. And if you do this multiple times, we may face warnings/consequences.'

'A large group of us underdarkers are going to the surface. We don't intend on attacking anyone, but there may be some trouble on the roads. Do we need a DM?'
'No, but if your group is especially large then probably best to grab one anyway, because large pvp is always a bit messy. Also, a large group of trouble-makers roiling around an area to cause trouble... again I would suggest a dm oversite, and if you're doing it often you... well frankly just don't do it often. It cheepens it and is irritating for the other side.'

I realize that these rules sound a bit airy. After all what number exactly is a 'large group' and what area by word counts as a 'settlment' and what if we run into another group and and and and and...

There's just so many permiatations here that any strict rules we set would be both easily abusable and would strongly hinder the organic nature of arelith. If you want a very rough eyball vauge estimateish of a number i'd say maybe 5-10 lingers around that number.

Basically, if you think it's going to turn into a large fight with multiple reports? Get a DM to oversee to make sure everyone is above board.

if you think your mass fight might take place in an area where a lot of new/unafiliated players will get dragged in - really a) get a dm but honestly b) think twice and don't make it a regular thing.

[Ebonstar]

some of the raids aren't even going near guards, they're happening on the roads

if they were on the roads noone would hear about them until after the fact

the only reason i brought this up is that this has become an everyday thing, not every so often, soon as nightfall rolls in attacks roll in on the non multiple guarded walled settlements and zero DM presence.

One big thing that irks is the UD raiders make a big deal of saying they are after one person, but do not ever attack where that person is, they hit smaller less defended places and leave messages via high body counts.

Grow a set and go after the person in their home because it is irritating to deal with this constantly in settlements that have nothing to do with the person named.

Oh and taking the time to pull down gates and then claim that no Npcs are around when there are two within eye sight and ballista crews not 50 steps away is ignoring the obvious.

[AdreannaDrea]

Personally, I'm enjoying the raids.

-Love, Surfacer.

[Baronze]

Stuff

If you have gripes, all you had to do was ask around to directly contact people involved. The raider groups are already in contact, and have been in contact with a few settlement/faction leaders for feedback. This feedback has been listened to, addressed, and IC planning has been changed accordingly.

You should consider that your fellow players, who may be playing evil monsters, are trying to use conflict as a means to further the overarching storyline of the server, develop their characters through interactions with yours, and offer the opportunity to as many people as they can to be a part of it.

PvP is rarely clean or played fair, regardless of character alignment, but we're trying to keep it fun and limit the impact to the players that choose to be involved. I believe that we have been giving our opponents chances to retaliate, going into fights knowing we'll probably lose, playing our characters and building up a story. Most of this conflict has been something people can opt-out of entirely, and many have chosen to opt-in because they find it enjoyable to be involved in it.

To reiterate: We are not here to make you miserable, and we are not trying to dunk on people for no reason, and we are not going to start breaking into quarters just to bash people because that is very toxic. We are just setting up to tell a story and trying to have fun.

[MalKalz]

If there are concerns that the occurrences are happening too frequently, you can request DMs to look into it.

[Narcho]

Personally, I'm enjoying the raids.

-Love, Surfacer.

This ^^

[McKnighter]

Stuff

I'll also echo this. I can't speak for all raiders, but at least the ones I'm involved with are doing it for a narrative conflict rather than going around corpse bashing everyone we see.

If there's concerns, feel free to send them my way and I'll do my best to work with feedback given in order to make better RP experiences on both sides.

We raiders often put ourselves out on a limb to get creamed if it means a fun engagement. I also encourage people that find themselves under a raid or unfavorable situations to roll with the punches. You'd be surprised what sort of story can come out of it. There's a book in game listed 'When Bad Things Happens to Good Adventurers' that highlights how a bad outcome for a scenario can lead heaps of RP after the fact.

[Wrips]

that's fun. keep going

[Morgy]

Enjoying it personally. The current raiders are good sports and will respond to tells if you want to talk to them about what's happening/options for avoiding imprisonment/death.

It's a nice change to the ooc tensions that often arise between sides.

[Gillesbreton]

I’ve been on both sides of the fence in regards to this with various characters. Surface raids are indeed risky and, often the surfacers can mobilise gigantic forces to counter them in a blink of an eye. It’s been a game of cat and mouse for the past 18 years on Arelith to my memory and it should continue that way in my opinion.

I would say that if you come into weapons range of settlement guards as an under-darker, you should roleplay as if they would fire at you, or fire at them first. Not doing so and completely ignoring a Cordor Elite Guard etc. is breaking the number 1. Rule, roleplay.

In addition to this, a force setting up and laying siege to a settlement, with heavy, explosives and siege weapons should indeed require DM presence, after all, setting up war machines outside a town would 100% gain a response from the town’s garrison.

[D4wN]

I've seen mass PVP done well and not done well. So far I'm thoroughly enjoying the way this is being handled. There have been wins and losses on both sides and it's felt like we've been able tell a collaborative story both from a PVP and non PVP perspective. So far I feel this isn't toxic at all and pretty well balanced. I don't feel it's too much yet at this point either. And they've been good (mostly) in not just coming to corpse bash and scry gank. People have been left alive, even unharmed. Corpses have been left behind to be retrieved.

It is very difficult to do a PVP driven narrative without it turning salty and toxic. So far? It's going pretty well imo. And people are making sure OOCly that they are available for feedback and improvements.

[Alyxnia]

I have always been a big proponent of the concept of "in character actions have in character consequences". Sometimes, those consequences aren't what you wanted for your your character, and it can be easy to feel like RP is being 'forced' on you if, for example, you end up in the path of a raiding party. I have been on both sides of this, and the best thing you can take away from the experience, at least in my opinion, is using the conflict whether you win or lose as an avenue to spur growth and change in your characters story.

Much like real life, bad things can happen, and things your character has no connection to can still impact them. Instead of taking your characters loss as your loss, try and remember that you aren't your character, and every interaction is a chance to let other stories impact you just as much as they let your character and their stories impact others.

I am no stranger to the emotions that can come with an especially thorough 'loss' in PvP conflict, and sometimes taking a breather is best after the fact, especially if emotions are running high.

I hope I made sense and didn't ramble too much, and I'm always available to chat here on the forum in PMs, and if you feel like there have been egregious rule breaks, you should always bring it to the DMs. Just remember, conflict works best when there is give and take on both sides, as well as open communication.

[Amateur Hour]

Much like real life, bad things can happen, and things your character has no connection to can still impact them. Instead of taking your characters loss as your loss, try and remember that you aren't your character, and every interaction is a chance to let other stories impact you just as much as they let your character and their stories impact others.

The three most heartfelt RP moments in my Arelith tenure were aftermaths of my characters or their loved ones being on the losing side of PvP. Losing is usually not as fun as winning, but you can use the opportunity to deepen bonds with characters close to yours. How do people respond to you having been that badly hurt? Whose first thought is vengeance, and whose first thought is your wellbeing? What does your character think the proper response should be? Is your character primarily angry, sad, or scared?

Just some thoughts to help direct post-loss RP if you're at a loss (pun unintended) as a player.

[Zavandar]

To Ebonstar's point, I can relate and sympathize with being stuck in the middle of someone else's pre-planned conflict and feeling like a lost third wheel.

Sure, it can be great fun for those in the know (and people in this thread seem to be part of the OOC planners), but for outsiders and people that like to stay strictly IC, these situations can be less than ideal--and I feel like they've been happening with increased frequency over the past few years.

[Baronze]

To Ebonstar's point, I can relate and sympathize with being stuck in the middle of someone else's pre-planned conflict and feeling like a lost third wheel.

Sure, it can be great fun for those in the know (and people in this thread seem to be part of the OOC planners), but for outsiders and people that like to stay strictly IC, these situations can be less than ideal--and I feel like they've been happening with increased frequency over the past few years.

That isn't what is happening at all. None of these raids were OOCly planned, especially with the opposing factions. Feedback was taken from some people that were involved in the raids afterwards. They often just start spontaneously, and involve whoever is in the Hub at the time.

[The GrumpyCat]

Honestly I'm just really happy to see some people on the raid-ded side speak out about how they're having fun! That's really nice!

[Soliel]

Hello Hello!

I don't post much, probably won't post often. But this post stuck out to me.... The last raid that happened in Westcliff, I will say it was done perfectly on all sides and thats what makes the moment so much more fun. No one expected it, I walked into the group and was absolutely shaking in my boots. I went down before any backup came but still, I sat and waited because its moments like that, that truly build stories. could I have ignored it? 100%, some people did exactly that. Could I have went down, waited my time in the maze and left and acted like nothing happens? yeah, though that pretty much ends it there. I waited, spoke with the person who downed me saying 'let me know what you decide to do so we can do more with this story' and truly, I wasn't expecting a message back. but to get one and say' yeah we can work on something' that connection between a random surfacer and random underdarker is amazing. Not to mention the coordination, absolutely perfect. The raids are having an effect all over the place, and its driving stories. So honestly, I applaud it all. I know people sometimes avoid PVP over past experiences, but this has been done so right. So much so I walk now always thinking 'whats gonna happen on this road? is someone following me' and just being able to reach out to someone and go 'hey what can we do to build from this if x and y happen'

Truly, bravo's all around from everyone thats been involved on every side. and thank you for providing such a building experience for the server and the characters.

[Watchful Glare]

Hello Hello!

I don't post much, probably won't post often. But this post stuck out to me.... The last raid that happened in Westcliff, I will say it was done perfectly on all sides and thats what makes the moment so much more fun. No one expected it, I walked into the group and was absolutely shaking in my boots. I went down before any backup came but still, I sat and waited because its moments like that, that truly build stories. could I have ignored it? 100%, some people did exactly that. Could I have went down, waited my time in the maze and left and acted like nothing happens? yeah, though that pretty much ends it there. I waited, spoke with the person who downed me saying 'let me know what you decide to do so we can do more with this story' and truly, I wasn't expecting a message back. but to get one and say' yeah we can work on something' that connection between a random surfacer and random underdarker is amazing. Not to mention the coordination, absolutely perfect. The raids are having an effect all over the place, and its driving stories. So honestly, I applaud it all. I know people sometimes avoid PVP over past experiences, but this has been done so right. So much so I walk now always thinking 'whats gonna happen on this road? is someone following me' and just being able to reach out to someone and go 'hey what can we do to build from this if x and y happen'

Truly, bravo's all around from everyone thats been involved on every side. and thank you for providing such a building experience for the server and the characters.

Comments like these are lovely, and having someone reach out to you after PvP and actually trying to build up a story or seeing what would be more interesting instead of instabashing and calling it a day makes a world of a difference, it is a shame we don't see it more often- But this scenario I think is a beautiful example of be the change that you want to see.

You will inevitably face negativity eventually, some people will even hate it no matter how much everyone else enjoys it, for no other reason that the people they dislike (for whatever the reason) are the ones doing it, instead of seeing it for a good thing.

But ultimately, I'm glad now moreso than before there's an effort to make that kind of responsible, or more friendly mentality OOC a reality. I've been thanked by those I give antagonist RP to and it feels rewarding, and it also helps one remember we don't exist in a vacuum. There are many used to being in their little OOC group considering others the enemy, and anything bad that happens to their character, a targeted attempt. That leads into he immediate bash one-line mentality, that perpetuates an unhealthy cycle. Hit respawn, don't talk too much about it, that one didn't count. Time for revenge tomorrow.

I've fought the raiders and I had a cool duel once too, fortunately he came out on top but if my character had to be defeated, I'd much rather too it be with someone that reaches out to me OOCly, and not an instant-bash for someone to cherish a head while I just respawn and it's like it never happened. The idea that being on the losing side of PvP can be made more meaningful or engaging by such simple things is foreign to some, but it need not be, however uncomfortable it might make them feel.

Your words mean a lot, for those people and otherwise. Thank you for coming here to say them, and don't feed the trolls.

[Akzeriuth900]

I'm personally loving the raids. Every day they could be coming and bring excitement and fun!
The experience I had with the raiders have been positive so far, both IC and OOC. There is the issue with extreme lag that unfortunately, does take a bit of fun out of the pvp encounters. Other than that? Keep the raids coming, they've been very enjoyable and story driven so far.

[Ork]

So to be clear you walked into a bunch of hostile monster players they killed you with how much role play before you got killed?
I mean if they wanted to role play with you they could of used subdual and spoken to you but your toon got killed and they then didn't reach out to you, just replied to your asking if anything is going to come from your random death, with lets be honest a vague message of yeah maybe something can come from it.

But hey horses for courses and you enjoyed getting killed and a single line of text back while in the fugue im happy for you.

I don't object to raids neither do i dislike them but your feed back rings alittle hollow as you got killed and one line of text while dead in response to your own question, and your over joyed with it?

Let the man enjoy the moment. The hell you doing trying to make him feel bad for a roleplay opportunity he saw, participated in and enjoyed.