have settlement raid rules changed?

[Soliel]

So to be clear you walked into a bunch of hostile monster players they killed you with how much role play before you got killed?
I mean if they wanted to role play with you they could of used subdual and spoken to you but your toon got killed and they then didn't reach out to you, just replied to your asking if anything is going to come from your random death, with lets be honest a vague message of yeah maybe something can come from it.

But hey horses for courses and you enjoyed getting killed and a single line of text back while in the fugue im happy for you.

I don't object to raids neither do i dislike them but your feed back rings alittle hollow as you got killed and one line of text while dead in response to your own question, and your over joyed with it?

Eeeshh >.> there was roleplay I watched them for a good 20 minutes, not to mention it was a sort of sacrifice to keep them all in one place on my end. And they gave me a chance to escape as well. They could’ve seen me and it been instant. I technically initiated and called them out as well so I mean “you reap what you sow” being blunt in my details cause I don’t need to go into everything that was said between characters trying to build a story. Options were given to me and I took the options that would lead to a more in-depth story. Just saying I did enjoy what was happening before my characters death is all and complimenting them…

But thanks for the feedback gonna go back to enjoying the stories being built <3 one love

[chris a gogo]

That's great I'm happy for you.

Sorry for sounding negative but.
I wasn't there so what you write about an encounter is all anyone not there knows about what happened, you post implied the death came quickly

I walked into the group and was absolutely shaking in my boots. I went down before any backup came but still

Kind of implies your died just after meeting them rather than you spent 20 mins rping.

So again I'm glad you had fun and I'm sorry for asking for clarity on the event you were praising.

[Zavandar]

That isn't what is happening at all. None of these raids were OOCly planned, especially with the opposing factions. Feedback was taken from some people that were involved in the raids afterwards. They often just start spontaneously, and involve whoever is in the Hub at the time.

If this is indeed the case, then I am glad to be wrong.

I've fought the raiders and I had a cool duel once too, fortunately he came out on top but if my character had to be defeated, I'd much rather too it be with someone that reaches out to me OOCly, and not an instant-bash for someone to cherish a head while I just respawn and it's like it never happened. The idea that being on the losing side of PvP can be made more meaningful or engaging by such simple things is foreign to some, but it need not be, however uncomfortable it might make them feel.

I think it prudent to mention that I recently had a screenshot shared with me of one of the raiders wearing a necklace of player heads. Perhaps they are ignorant of your high standards, but such inconsistencies may be why some people are not fond of the raids.

[Morgy]

I think assumptions and the strange behaviours of a -few-, should not really be the focus of are the raids good or bad.

The players on both sides seem honest and willing to improve RP, let's be happy about that and move onwards.

[Zavandar]

The players on both sides seem honest and willing to improve RP, let's be happy about that and move onwards.

I am glad to hear it. Let's hope the aforementioned issue is rectified.

[The GrumpyCat]

Two things I've learned of late to please keep in mind when you hear 'Group X is doing Y every day!'

1) People really exadurate. 2 attacks by the same group in the space of one week, where a few pcs died, can swift become.. 'We're literally beeing attacked every single day massicreting hundreds of pcs!!'

2) Some large 'groups' are treated as monoliths when they are not. The underdark is a prime example, but a lot of settlment/racial groups get this. The Drow House PinkyPie attack the surface one week - and they're generally great rpers and cool and all that. Then three days later a couple of orogs and a gnoll happen to hop up to gather wood, and end up in pvp. And a day later some Kobolds hop up to cause a little light mischief around bendir. What's the actions of three, probably entirely unrelated groups become 'THE UNDERDARK IS ATTACKING EVERY DAY!' as if it's some ghestalt of enemies magically connected and bent on griefing folk.

[Naiinara]

My character was one of the ones at the recent session at Westcliffe.

I didn't see any rule breaking. They didn't run in and rush things to completion. Even if you stayed around to role play they left an avenue to avoid a fight. I even thought the pick pocketing of characters that were held up was inspired. This was not some bogeyman underdarker group coming to get their jollies. Far from it.

I think people know this too. What's really the cause of contention is Westcliffe itself. I had a character in the underdark before too. I avoided the surface attacks and what not for the most part because it wasn't something new. Not to say that on occasion that might not be fun. If I felt like it, I could join one. On the surface if you feel like it you could just walk the road at night. See what happens. I think this is what people want: they want to have the option, if they wish, to most of the time avoid such role play by sitting in a settlement.

All I can say is "Keep it up". You'll never make everyone happy; but if you do well, if you make it interesting people will walk the surface at night in hope.

[Arienette]

My two cents. Context: I have played a good mix of Surface and UD characters. I am generally excited to hear of "raid" conflict and participate in it as a defender or aggressor, as appropriate.

The following is mostly geared toward UD raiders, who may only play UD characters, or may not have played on the Surface for some time. Maybe to paint a picture of how some could become upset when these things happen repeatedly, even if you are generally doing good work!

Even I, who enjoy conflict RP and like a good fight (win or lose!) can become frustrated with repeated UD raids. The primary reason for this is module design. It is EXCEEDINGLY easy for UD characters to conduct an ad-hoc soft raid on surface settlements.

1. Gather a few bored friends in the Hub.
2. Ward up, portal into Uplands Gorge or similar.
3. Go into the Bendir Village zone, but outside the gate.
4. Wait.
5. Profit!

Its easy, and you can do it basically anytime you want. In order to get into Bendir, people HAVE TO walk from zone to zone and then bump into you in order to get to their destination. And you are just as likely to bump into a group of Hawkin', or Kuldarn, or a couple famous paladins, etc as you are to bump into anyone else. And at any given time, there are perhaps 5-10 Bendir folks in the Bendir village, and maybe half of those, at best, are "appropriate combatants" who might oppose you when they figure out that you are there. Might they send word to other allies to help? Yes, but then those allies are on the wrong side of the UD raid force and cannot join up with the Bendir defenders (unless they are Earthkin who come through the portal).

On the other hand, it is exceedingly difficult to achieve something similar as a Surfacer trying to "hit back" against the bad guys. UD players portal in and out of the Hub portal, and spend a lot or most of their time in the Hub. If you, as a Surfacer, wander around high traffic wilderness areas in the UD, you are highly likely to encounter random writ workers, and highly unlikely to encounter UD characters who would be your appropriate "revenge targets". That Drow Matron, or Deep Legion boss, will simply NOT walk out the Deep Gate of Andunor on a stroll. It just doesn't happen.

Then, if you do make waves in a wilderness area close to a city, almost the entire population of online UD PCs will be in the Hub at that moment. They will be informed, and then you have the entire city swarming out to get you.

Can a well-organized Surface faction manage something like this successfully? Yeah, sure. But your average PC cannot. So the player of that PC experiences attack after attack by UD raiders, and does not feel like they can effectively strike back.

This can quickly lead to a feeling of powerlessness that is not fun for that player. All they feel like they can do is wait to be attacked and hope to get lucky. They do not feel like they can take any initiative and have any agency on their own behalf.

[-stick-]

Maybe something can be done about large pvp groups camping areas, this could indeed lead to bad outcomes

[Alyxnia]

Maybe something can be done about large pvp groups camping areas, this could indeed lead to bad outcomes

I have not seen large pvp groups camping areas in my own experience over the last several months.

[Hazard]

I think what constitutes a raid should be changed. Players know that attacking what is officially 'a settlement' requires DM approval, so they will simply attack 'not settlements', and often traveled paths, and so on. It is still called a raid. It still does pretty much the same thing as a non-DM approved raid on a city. It's the same thing.

Maybe organising into a group and going around anywhere with the sole purpose of looking for PvP should be 'a raid' and require DM approval/oversight.

Don't get me wrong, I remember some really awesome times where raids were the most fun thing going on even as a victim (captive). The Iron Order of Elven Death (or whatever?) That was the good stuff... But our playerbase has grown A LOT since then, and our RP-culture has shifted too, to a more fast paced, themepark MMO, lighter on the RP kind of thing, where everyone is very quickly max level. This means there are a lot more people, ready to do a lot more PvP, a lot sooner/quicker than before.

Maybe the rules can shift a bit, now that there's so many of us.

[msheeler]

What's really the cause of contention is Westcliffe itself.

This line stuck out to me and I did not really get what you meant by this in the rest of the paragraph. Can you explain what you mean by this?

Also, just for and FYI - I am currently for these 'raids' as I have seen some of this from both of the current sides and I am sure there is a lot of RP going into these, though I have not yet been directly involved.