Roleplay Advice for a Thief

[Aradin]

Howdy folks! Recently I rolled up my first thief and I've been enjoying the scoundrel life so far. But I've been around long enough to know the pitfalls that come with playing a thief, mostly in terms of making theft/pickpocketing/general larcenous activity fun for the victim. While I'm quite happy to draw the ire of a character, I've no desire to ruin a player's day.

This is a general ask for advice to the community, particularly to players of thieves and victims of thieves. For thieves, what sort of illicit activities have you gotten up to that were enjoyable for both sides? What advice would you offer someone in navigating the treacherous OOC waters of stealing things from other players? What sorts of in-game thief-type activities generally yield a positive roleplay result and which ones don't?
For victims of thieves, what positive experiences have you had with thieves and why were they positive? What did the thief do to make things fun for you as the victim? And, conversely, what negative experiences have you had with thieves and why were they negative? Do you feel like the thief missed opportunities to make the engagement interesting, and if so what were those opportunities?

Any and all advice and ideas are welcome. If there's anything you've ever wanted an Arelithian thief to do that they didn't, if you've never played a thief but have always thought idea x would be a great hook for one, and so on - feel free to comment.

Thanks if you do! Cheers.

[WanderingPoet]

I would say the biggest pitfall of thievery is that it's generally taken as people RPing -at- the victim rather than -with- the victim. You break into their home and steal something? That's gone, forever and ever. You didn't get to do anything to stop it even with best locks and traps and true seeing whenever you enter a place.

Unless you happen to stumble on it later, you'll never see that unique fixture/item again.

So it'd be nice if there was some way to get back stolen goods, like ransoming it.

Another idea is to break into a house and get caught; hopefully not by someone very ready to murder your face.

Organizing a heist of sorts brings others into the RP, and maybe you have some people interact with the victim to distract them while you rob them.

At least with PickPocket people have to get into your face; though usually if they get caught they scurry off without a word. I've seen a lot of people RP pickpocketing in a way that was fun; by actually bumping into the person "Oh sorry!" and RPing rather than from stealth.

But as it is, breaking and entering/stealing isn't very fun for the victim as there is rarely anything you can do about it. Half the time the script for investigating doesn't work either, and triggers on people that live there. Being stolen from while being RPed -with- is fun, being stolen from and being RPed -at- is frustrating.

[Gilbert K]

Hey there. I have a "thief" alt that I have been playing semi-consistently since 2006. I find thievery roleplay a lot of fun, otherwise I'd have rolled this nameless nobody background character by now. I made them as a sort of bandit-type character to harass people on the highways of Arelith with the fullest intent of getting my butt kicked for the sake of making the world seem a bit more alive. Glad to see someone else doing the same, now that I've started toying with the idea of bringing them back for a bit myself.

I have two pieces of advice for you to consider.

1.) Look at it from the perspective of server integrity. I can tell just by you making this thread that you're not just making this character to break stuff and steal things and that you're interested in making the server feel like there's a criminal presence. Here's how you do that: Don't feel bad about taking someone else's stuff and just do it, as long as you're keeping to the rules. Seems simple, right? But we are (I like to believe) decent people and we're not out to ruin anyone's day, like you said. And inevitably, probably in this very same thread even, you're going to see people post things like "You need to always leave behind some sort of clue that you stole from a quarter" or "You should always roleplay walking up and touching my character before pickpocketting them".

Do not listen to these people. They are salty that they didn't win in a video game.

Should you try and make your thievery as interactive as possible? YES! Absolutely. But consider that the server has, over the years, evolved to have the deck stacked against thieves in terms of rules and mechanics to the point where pickpocketting is generally more of a roleplay thing and definitely more trouble than it's worth and there's a small novel's worth of rulings to remember regarding quarterbreaking that you'll definitely feel the DMs watching you every time you even try and pick someone's lock (which will almost always be too high for the meme build to break anyway).

Full disclosure, I have been the victim of cheesy theft "roleplay" more times than I'd care to mention. Does it suck? Yes. Absolutely. Ruined my day, even. But I reported it, read "When Bad Things Happen To Good Adventurers" and carried on.

But don't feel bad about stealing. If you mess up, you mess up. Learn and do better. Remember that just by stealing things on occasion, you are reminding people that this is a living, breathing world and your roleplay with them might just be a gentle reminder from the shadows that nothing is permanent here.


2.) This is arguably more important advice, but I felt I had to get all that other stuff out of the way first: "Thief" roleplay does not necessarily have to involve stealing from players!

Are you doing writs? Hey, actually, you weren't hired by the writ agency to go kill ten goblins in one room, ten in another and kill a big one in the throne room. You're a thief, and that goblin fortress looks like a good joint to case and maybe plan a heist around if there's anything valuable in there! And if some goblins get in your way, well, tough luck for them.

That's how I'm currently trudging through the horrors that are Arelith's writ system for the fortieth time: Making them seem like their own self-contained heist story. Always bring a partner or two! Gotta have a lookout and a getaway mage. Or whatever your character would do.

My point is, there's been this big stigma lately about "thief" characters. They've become synonymous with quarterbreakers, and, by proxy, rule-breakers. You can be a thief character and never steal from other players if you don't feel safe/comfortable doing it. There's TONS of NPCs you can pickpocket that have great stuff that you can...well, I'll let you figure it out yourself.

[Edens_Fall]

In regards to home theft, I really like it when clever notes or such are left behind. Though it's best when there are clues to follow so I can try to track down the thief and reclaim what was lost through Ransom or whatever.

Try to avoid a straight up theft with nothing else as the victim will just scratch their head and wonder what happened.

[Xarge VI]

What I've done some aeons ago and got kudos from the victim is essentially sell back or ransom the item stolen.

It also makes sense for the thief to do this. No need to try and peddle hot items in an uncertain market if you can get value out of it by selling it back at some portion of the original value.

[Dr. B]

In regards to home theft, I really like it when clever notes or such are left behind. Though it's best when there are clues to follow so I can try to track down the thief and reclaim what was lost through Ransom or whatever.

Try to avoid a straight up theft with nothing else as the victim will just scratch their head and wonder what happened.

I leave clues that are misleading and pin the crime on someone else.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Thievery should be something that starts roleplay.

[D4wN]

Funnily enough I’m currently going through this IG as a ‘victim’ and whoever did it has done it perfectly in my opinion.

1. They left a clue, without it being too obvious. It gave me a starting point without directly leading to the resolution.

2. They took something very valuable ensuring that my character would want it back and thus would invest in seeing it back.

I believe it’s important as the thief to give an opportunity for another player to get back what was stolen, but it doesn’t need to be easy or even successful. Others have said it, stealing something should create RP. Even if it doesn’t ultimately lead to getting back your precious item, being given a chance to succeed and/or make progress is important or even feeling like you are.

I also think that as the ‘victim’ it’s important to stay open minded and try to have fun with it. To see it as an opportunity to follow a plot line someone else created for you. Involve other people and don’t instantly give in because you’re upset. This stuff is ultimately just virtual stuff.

This should very much be a collaboration between the thief and victim and just another fun conflict story.

Thievery has gotten a bad name since it is or has often been used as another way to grief someone and ruin their day. By taking high value ores or runes etc. my advise? Don’t keep stuff like that in your quarter. But I also know there have been many occasions things have been stolen and you never hear or see from the thief again not allowing you to follow a plot and just instantly hitting a dead end. This isn’t fun for the victim.

[Zavandar]

I have never had good thief roleplay.

Never.

Not once.

I have brought a lot of RP to other people after I have been wordlessly quarterbroken, but I'll blatantly thank myself for that and not the thief. I could've dedicated my time and energy to more interesting plots, so I'm not very grateful for the "opportunity". Tokens left behind are just that: tokens. They're the bare minimum of RP and honestly serve just to make the thief feel better about themselves. I can think of a number of individuals/groups that left their trademarks and are known only for doing that, and not for any cool RP they provided.

I know Aradin to be a good-spirited roleplayer and I don't think a thief is being made maliciously (I doubt this thread would have been made if it was), but I'd rather a server with no thieves than a server with one good one and a million bad ones. Making a fun thief is going to be an enormous undertaking, and I wish you luck on this challenge.

[Scurvy Cur]

I'd also add that the practice of offering false flag/misleading "clues" is probably unsporting enough that I'd let a DM know about it.

It's too easy for this to look an awful lot like dropping a clue that's so useless you may as well not have left anything at all behind, which is another common theme for "bad theft".

[TurningLeaf]

Quarterbreaking meh, quarterfollowing, now that will test one's resolve. Also possibly less likely to result in instant flight or fight scenario if caught, I don't know i was never caught.

[Rei_Jin]

Quarterbreaking, in 99% of situations, doesn't generate RP for the defender, other than perhaps anger at having their stuff taken.

Whilst the offender may RP whilst they're at it, it's pretty rare for anyone to know about that, as they do their best to do it unobserved and tend to either lens or potion of attunement out if caught.

It's also very rare for a quarterbreaker to leave behind any honest clues, or to interact about the theft meaningfully (or at all) afterwards.

Whilst I can see a need for quarterbreaking to exist so that people don't hide behind private quarters, I do not see how it adds anything to the world when stuff gets stolen when the defender isn't there.

If they want to quarterfollow and attempt to steal? Sure, go for it.

If they want to quarterbreak to get to someone inside a property? Again, go for it.

But if all you want to do is break in and steal stuff?

Find some other avenue of play that isn't simply griefing other players for your own enrichment.

Pickpocketing, at least by comparison, does require that the defender is present, even if they're at a massive disadvantage.

I would much rather quarterbreaking was changed in the same way that pickpocketing has been, so that you can only steal a GP amount from your target, rather than take their stuff.

And with DM oversight, could more be taken? Absolutely, because then there's RP and avenues for follow up.

[Wethrinea]

I have only been the subject of indirect QB, in that a painting my character gifted to another was stolen (and later returned). That did generate some RP since the purpose of the theft was the use of the item to leverage a third character.

That is what I consider use of thieves and QB in good faith: To steal something that is to be used to further an ongoing story (or start a new one) for the enjoyment of all involved parties.

All bandit/thief RP runs into the problem that the only "economically viable" stuff you can steal is what the victims will hate to lose, both IC and OOC, so for thief RP to be enjoyable it really requires the tacit agreement between perpetrator and victim that this is fun for them both. In the sense that it is the interaction between thief/bandit and victim that is the focus, not what gets stolen.

For that to work, you need both the bandit/thief and the victim to be both gracious and generous. The victim must allow themselves (at least temporarily) to "lose", and the bandit/thief must in turn make the follow up enjoyable for the victim. That is a tall order, and likely not for everyone.

[Edens_Fall]

Funnily enough I’m currently going through this IG as a ‘victim’ and whoever did it has done it perfectly in my opinion.

1. They left a clue, without it being too obvious. It gave me a starting point without directly leading to the resolution.

2. They took something very valuable ensuring that my character would want it back and thus would invest in seeing it back.

I believe it’s important as the thief to give an opportunity for another player to get back what was stolen, but it doesn’t need to be easy or even successful. Others have said it, stealing something should create RP. Even if it doesn’t ultimately lead to getting back your precious item, being given a chance to succeed and/or make progress is important or even feeling like you are.

I also think that as the ‘victim’ it’s important to stay open minded and try to have fun with it. To see it as an opportunity to follow a plot line someone else created for you. Involve other people and don’t instantly give in because you’re upset. This stuff is ultimately just virtual stuff.

This should very much be a collaboration between the thief and victim and just another fun conflict story.

Thievery has gotten a bad name since it is or has often been used as another way to grief someone and ruin their day. By taking high value ores or runes etc. my advise? Don’t keep stuff like that in your quarter. But I also know there have been many occasions things have been stolen and you never hear or see from the thief again not allowing you to follow a plot and just instantly hitting a dead end. This isn’t fun for the victim.

What are the odds as I too had a recent theft. Though the clues were vague enough to not provide much of a lead. I will state the thief left a very well-done calling card in the form of a fixture, or perhaps threat is a better word. Either way, it made me smile.

[I will never sleep]

I have never had good thief roleplay.

Never.

Not once.

I have brought a lot of RP to other people after I have been wordlessly quarterbroken, but I'll blatantly thank myself for that and not the thief. I could've dedicated my time and energy to more interesting plots, so I'm not very grateful for the "opportunity". Tokens left behind are just that: tokens. They're the bare minimum of RP and honestly serve just to make the thief feel better about themselves.

This...

So much this.

I've had notes left that didn't even make sense (threatening my character for things they didn't even do) or to 'stop' doing something very arbitrary. Feel like vague ooc spite and transactions.

Again, difference between roleplaying at and with. But I am of the opinion that quartertheft should just not be a thing.

[Dr. B]

I don't understand why people think you are supposed to leave clues that can lead to the recovery of your item. That's like suggesting that after killing someone in PvP you are expected to leave their body in an area where they can be raised. And similarly, I don't understand why someone would consider it a rule breach to leave a useless or misleading clue. In no way does that violate any of the rules.

[Amateur Hour]

I don't understand why people think you are supposed to leave clues that can lead to the recovery of your item. That's like suggesting that after killing someone in PvP you are expected to leave their body in an area where they can be raised. And similarly, I don't understand why someone would consider it a rule breach to leave a useless or misleading clue. In no way does that violate any of the rules.

The difference is that the PvP killing rules require you to make yourself known to the person you attack as part of attacking them. You can't, for example, be invisible and drop a Hellball on someone's head without saying a word. Because you have at least some information about who took your life (even if they're disguised), you can choose to retaliate, demand satisfaction, etc.

In a typical quartertheft, you have absolutely no information about who stole your stuff. Most of the time, thieves aren't walking on surfaces that leave tracks as they enter or leave your quarter, so even the tracks update doesn't help much. There is no way to respond to it except complaining to your friends about it.

So it's not a matter that you're supposed to leave clues. It's more a matter that the only way both sides can get meaningful roleplay is if the thief leaves decent clues, and we're ostensibly playing this game to roleplay.

[Dr. B]

If you want a quartertheft to lead to interactive RP, then here are some things you can do:

You can ransom the item in exchange for a task--espionage within a certain faction, for example, or exchanging it for another item that the target can acquire and you need. You would elect to steal from the target's quarter with this goal in mind, knowing they are someone who would be susceptible to the ransom.

You could absolutely try to frame someone else for the robbery. This isn't a rule breach, it leads to roleplay, and the theft would be carried out with the aim of undermining an enemy or a rival.

You can auction off the items. Start a semi-secret black market of sorts. Team Good is motivated to seek out and bust this black market.

Ultimately there is small but loud minority of people who will still look at the above as bad roleplay, but that's because they will look at any kind of theft as bad roleplay because they cannot take things in stride. You'll find similar attitudes around PvP, losing elections, and other things that involve "losing." I assume that part of the reason it's difficult to roleplay theft is because these players are probably the first who will corpsebash you at any attempt to do so, and so people decide not to.

Please don't change the server rules to accommodate these players. This is a case of WBTHTGA and the people who can't understand that.

[Zavandar]

I have similarly never seen a thief roleplay losing. People criticize those that kill thieves, but every thief I've seen would also rather die than give back what they stole when confronted. Doubly so if they stole an item, since they know that killing them won't let people get the item back.

To reference a post I made in a similar thread a while ago, imagine if you sat down to a PnP session only for the DM to tell you, "By the way, one of the players stole from you between this game and the last. I asked them to make some RP out of it, but they didn't feel like it."

This is the state of quartertheft on Arelith. And it's entirely permissible.

But again, I have higher hopes for the OP in that regard.

[Aradin]

Thanks for the viewpoints everyone, I appreciate it! Good food for thought. Keep 'em coming if you have 'em.

[Marsi]

I have similarly never seen a thief roleplay losing. People criticize those that kill thieves, but every thief I've seen would also rather die than give back what they stole when confronted. Doubly so if they stole an item, since they know that killing them won't let people get the item back.

My first main was a Hoarran, and I made it his business to chase down thieves/brigands etc on others behalfs. Catching those kinds of characters out exposed me to a kind of salt and trantruming I have never since experienced. I feel like your average PvP wrecking ball understands that they live by the sword, but I found "thief mechanics" to be overrepresented by a kind of player that felt entitled to doing whatever they wanted to others and getting away with it. The idea that someone might come along that wasn't a defenseless lowbie and kill them just didn't compute.

I used to like that pickpocketing and quarterbreaking existed, even though I've almost never used them, because it made the server feel like a true Ultima Online sandbox. But looking back, I think part of what held it together was that Arelith used to have a much, much lower playercount and that knowledge of mechanics was not widespread. All it would take is what, ten? active quarterbreakers to nauseate the rest of the playerbase.

Personally, I think social engineering is a more fun and generative form of larcenous roleplay. You take advantage of players who aren't paying attention (while still showing them a good time) rather than players who aren't online. You embezzle players/factions that have more than they need, or better, you steal and trade their secrets.

[Sundial]

My practice was to steal art and ransom it back - items that had a kind of intrinsic value and not a mechanical one, which can dull the gut-reaction of frustration when a player learns they've been robbed. To provide some narrative satisfaction, there's got to be a chance at reclaiming what was taken. That way, the thief is providing the robbed party with the gift of endowing their fixture with some weight and intrigue.

[mourisson1]

I've used to run a temp shop with kinda low prices. When people came to buy, I was negotiating a bit about prices etc, and Pickpocketed them when they decided to buy something, so they actually "paid" more for it.

[Scurvy Cur]

You could absolutely try to frame someone else for the robbery. This isn't a rule breach, it leads to roleplay, and the theft would be carried out with the aim of undermining an enemy or a rival.

It's not a rulebreak, but it's crappy.

It's a rough analog to the old "rename zinc ingots to adamantine and describe them accordingly", back when all ingots had the same appearance. This wasn't illegal either, but it was definitely beyond the pale. This is because there is functionally no way for either the target or the framed party to learn the identity of the real thief.

You are generating RP. But you are not putting yourself forward as part of that RP, and risking no more than you would by wordlessly taking the item and leaving nothing at all behind. In fact, it's probably worse, because the frame target has not done anything to involve themselves with the RP, and now has to deal with the mess you made before checking out.

[AstralUniverse]

I have brought a lot of RP to other people after I have been wordlessly quarterbroken, but I'll blatantly thank myself for that and not the thief.

Pretty much this.

In the few times I was quarterbroken I definitely made a big deal out of it IC, told friends, local authorities, called for an investigation and involved other characters... but... I dont really need the thief to just hypothetically throw one of my items in the trash and generate the very same RP right?

For the thief RP to have any hope in being good, the thief needs to actually be a part of the RP around the theft, not just doing the theft and leaving the RP to others, thinking "I stole this item, therefore I generated RP for them" or "I left a clue that leads to an entirely unrelated party but a clue is a clue and will generate RP all the same".

My only suggestion would be to steal from people you know IC. So you can be a part of the investigation and have agency on how many clues you leave along the way so they have a fair chance getting you (after all, you decide how many small CSI tier mistakes your character makes in the post-theft 'clean up') or the item back.

In the most recent time I got quarterbroken, I instantly knew oocly right away who it was because there was RP prior to it and they didnt just break my quarter in a complete random fashion and that alone made me feel much better about the whole thing, even tho my character was just as pissed as they would be otherwise.