Inclusive RP - what does it mean to you?

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Khorvale
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Re: Inclusive RP - what does it mean to you?

Post by Khorvale » Wed Apr 19, 2023 1:52 am

While I appreciate everyone's contribution to my rant and the topic in general, I have to say I feel like there's a bit of a "what you're experiencing is incorrect and you're wrong" vibe going on, which I suppose is fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course but that doesn't change the fact that that's my experience.

But I get it, tribe mentality affects most things, especially dominant social groups like the veterans of a maybe somewhat insular thing like a roleplaying PW in a game that arguably should have died out a long time ago.
It's just not a great look when the veterans are quick to dogpile a rookie trying to convey what they experience in regards to the game world, with what seems to mostly boil down to "you're wrong and you're doing it wrong" in a talk about inclusiveness :)

Anyway, my viewpoint hasn't really changed and maybe I should expand a bit on it on a more analytical level at some point, but basically my experience with Arelith, now and then, (and mind you I still like the damn place or I wouldn't be on the forums debating), is that it gates a lot of things behind various, subjective criteria of what good RP is (which is a dogma that's established by the dominant social class of the player population and staff, IE: veterans and their relations), while providing very little to no guidance to the newer and/or more casual players except on mechanical stuff like builds, class combos and all the other mechanics represented on the wiki, and what not to do.

And if most of the tools you give your more rookie and casual players access to are either prescriptive admonishments about what not to do or how to act but with little framework to perform those prescriptives in, or about making stat combos that kill well, while also having a somewhat arbitrary system for judging people's RP (but kudos on the RPR application thing, that was sorely needed IMO), along with the probably inevitable but still problematic 'everyone is epic level for events' issue that tends to arise in most PWs, it doesn't really seem surprising to me that a lot of players never pass beyond those first goalposts of RP'ing that are more or less based on implicit and unwritten rules.0
Basically, I suspect a lot of players might not feel too included in the first place, so why would they strive to be inclusive towards what they perceive, correctly or not, as an uncaring dominant social group that doesn't include them? It feels more like criticism than like guidance until you (very maybe) manage to actually break into a social clique that'll engage with you.

Oh, and the fact that documentation is all over the place probably doesn't help either. A few days ago I killed a few NPC guards after ending up on the surface, figured it'd be in-character to cause a bit of havoc before the sun came up and I retreated. Turns out killing non-hostile guard NPCs is a no-no, which is perfectly fine, but I still haven't been able to even locate anywhere in the rules where it even says so :D

Last edited by Khorvale on Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Borin Drakkmurl
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Re: Inclusive RP - what does it mean to you?

Post by Borin Drakkmurl » Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:11 am

It is not what you've experienced that is incorrect or not, that is personal and subjective. It is how you've been expressing it, and how you've been replying to other people that is. You've been tiptoeing around the passive-agressive line in order to vent out your frustrations. Don't expect to do that and not be replied in kind or without much sympathy. It quickly becomes a matter of simple manners.

If it serves you of any consolation, what you are experiencing isn't new, and it's been seen before. Many times.

New player joins Arelith. New player has a very solid idea in their head of how things should be. New player wants things to turn out a certain way. New player wants to have his share of fun. New player keeps bumping into a bunch of walls and obstacles while not really understanding why. Frustration builds and fingerpointing quickly rises as the answer. Other people give advice or point out things that the new player takes as personal attacks or dogpilling without realising the help that is being extended, because said player is too busy finger pointing.

I wrote that without even thinking of this thread or you.

With all of that said, take the following as you wish:

Just chill. You're way overthinking it.
Arelith isn't perfect and there's always room for improvement. The current dev/dm team are some of the most open to change that I've seen. Trust in that.

And follow the good advice a lot of people have written on this thread.

Past characters: Daedin Angthalion; Lurg Norgar; Urebriwyn; Ubaldo Ferraz; Erodash Uzdshak; Borin; Belchior Heliodoro; Orestes Fontebela

Khorvale
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Re: Inclusive RP - what does it mean to you?

Post by Khorvale » Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:04 am

Borin Drakkmurl wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:11 am

It is not what you've experienced that is incorrect or not, that is personal and subjective. It is how you've been expressing it, and how you've been replying to other people that is. You've been tiptoeing around the passive-agressive line in order to vent out your frustrations. Don't expect to do that and not be replied in kind or without much sympathy. It quickly becomes a matter of simple manners.

If it serves you of any consolation, what you are experiencing isn't new, and it's been seen before. Many times.

New player joins Arelith. New player has a very solid idea in their head of how things should be. New player wants things to turn out a certain way. New player wants to have his share of fun. New player keeps bumping into a bunch of walls and obstacles while not really understanding why. Frustration builds and fingerpointing quickly rises as the answer. Other people give advice or point out things that the new player takes as personal attacks or dogpilling without realising the help that is being extended, because said player is too busy finger pointing.

I wrote that without even thinking of this thread or you.

With all of that said, take the following as you wish:

Just chill. You're way overthinking it.
Arelith isn't perfect and there's always room for improvement. The current dev/dm team are some of the most open to change that I've seen. Trust in that.

And follow the good advice a lot of people have written on this thread.

I don't really think I was neither finger-pointing nor venting (it certainly wasn't the goal) I'm sure I was somewhat hyperbolic in my initial post. As already mentioned, I was running on both lack of sleep and lack of medication which isn't a great mix :roll:
What I intended to do was provide a 'new players point of view' and try to address some of the institutional structures of Arelith that I think are contributing the issue that seems to be a continued issue for staff and veteran players.

I am, in fact, perfectly chill. In the end, it doesn't matter much to me whether anyone else can see said issues as I can make my own fun regardless of the obstacles to it created by what I see as a well-intended but problematic approach to "on-boarding" new and more casual players. In regards to the DM team, I have very little interaction with them or any events they may be arranging, so it doesn't really matter much whether they are open to change or not to me but I guess that's nice.

Anyway, lovely feedback


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Re: Inclusive RP - what does it mean to you?

Post by Xerah » Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:18 am

It’s not just your first post, it’s ever single post you’ve made in this topic. For whatever reason, there’s no way we can respond to anything you say without you passive aggressively claiming we’re all dog piling your opinion. Repeating that you’re lacking sleep and medication isn’t an excuse given that you’ve continued the same tone with all of your responses.

Borin totally knocked it out of the park with that response. I don’t think we need any further comments from you on this thread unless you completely change your tone here.

Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

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Marsi
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Re: Inclusive RP - what does it mean to you?

Post by Marsi » Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:34 am

Khorvale wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:04 am

I am, in fact, perfectly chill. In the end, it doesn't matter much to me whether anyone else can see said issues as I can make my own fun regardless of the obstacles to it created by what I see as a well-intended but problematic approach to "on-boarding" new and more casual players. In regards to the DM team, I have very little interaction with them or any events they may be arranging, so it doesn't really matter much whether they are open to change or not to me but I guess that's nice.

I think Arelith absolutely has an issue with onboarding & documentation. It doesn't help how haphazard/emergent feature releases can be. I've been playing on and off for over a decade and there's no good way for me to figure out the new state of mechanics.

I think a good onboarding process should instruct a potential new player not only in how the server works, but what we are, how our culture operates. At some point Arelith dropped its "bad things/good adventurer" culture and adopted this "we are everything for any kind of player" bit, probably to maximally absorb the EE influx. But we really aren't that. Important to know, like, literally what our custom features are, but also what we expect of players, what we can't give you, the kind of fun you should expect, the role DMs play here (different to other PWs) and importantly, what kind of player isn't going to fit in.

To some extent these things don't really matter. Arelith is sort of "for everyone", in that there's no institutionally enforced form of roleplaying or storytelling or fun having. We don't punish players who "aren't getting it", instead we withhold rewards or inclusion. You could play a mute craft lurker who's barely in-character if you wanted. But if you want to be a part of the world and be included in things its very important to understand that Arelith doesn't operate like a normal PW and that's mostly intentional.

In not doing this we generate a lot of bad will. It's very common to hear about a new player who tried to join, but felt excluded, or ran afoul of a poorly-documented (culturally understood) rule. They think Arelith is dysfunctional and unfair, or corrupt, or elitist, etc. Every post about Arelith on the neverwinternights subreddit or any other social media platform is full of negative commentary. There are whole communities of Arelith haters out there. Some of these people are delusional or obsessive, sure. But at scale, you have to wonder why this is. It wasn't this bad ten years ago -- if nothing else you had more choices in a PW.

So funnily enough I actually agree with part of your original premise, Khorvale. Inclusivity is nice, but the onus of inclusion should not always be on individual players anymore than acts of charity make up for a lack of universal healthcare. Expectation-setting and cultural alignment are important. They're understood implicitly, but there's way too much implied knowledge and social law on Arelith that the only way one can come to know it is by having been the "right kind of player" all along. And yes, I can see how frustrating it is to be told by "right kinds of players" that there's no problem, and that things aren't that bad.

Why should the great bell of Beaulieu toll when the shadows were neither short nor long?


MRFTW
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Re: Inclusive RP - what does it mean to you?

Post by MRFTW » Fri Apr 21, 2023 11:17 am

Khorvale wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:58 am

essentially enforcing a caste system

:shock:

I feel like we're wildly and unpleasantly off-topic at this point, to say the least.


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Amateur Hour
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Re: Inclusive RP - what does it mean to you?

Post by Amateur Hour » Fri Apr 21, 2023 11:59 am

MRFTW wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2023 11:17 am
Khorvale wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:58 am

essentially enforcing a caste system

:shock:

I feel like we're wildly and unpleasantly off-topic at this point, to say the least.

As the original poster here, this is an accurate read.

I asked this question to ask of the rest of the player community what we feel we can be doing on a regular basis, in our roleplay, to make more inclusive RP. Are there other changes that could perhaps be made outside of the roleplay-decision level? Absolutely. But I'm asking this because it's the part that's immediately within our own control. Things we can start doing, or change how we do, the very next time we log in to make Arelith better.

Rolled: Solveigh Arnimayne, "Anna Locksley"
Shelved: Ninim Elario, Maethiel Tyireale'ala
Current: Ynge Redbeard, ???


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Old Lies Die Harder
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Re: Inclusive RP - what does it mean to you?

Post by Old Lies Die Harder » Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:03 pm

There's a ton of good stuff in here, more than I can really read and digest without a corresponding six week intensive course.

Here's a handful of things that I try to do with the intent of bringing in other people. Can all of these things be done all the time to the extent I try to? No. Are they appropriate in all situations? Probably not. But an effort goes a long way.

Now, because this is the internet, please take the tone of the following as 'jovial and humorous'. That's how it's intended.

Acknowledge Everyone
Make an effort to make a post at as many characters that pass within your sphere as possible. This can be as simple as a "Good day, miss!" to something more directly engaging with them. Many of us were taught not to provoke our friends, but the basis of RP is provoking and responding to interactions. Not a cheery character? No problem. Emote stepping away from that guy on the street. Write a short line about giving that passing Banite/Paladin the stinkeye. Something. Anything, to let the player of the character who's just arrived know that you the player are aware of them. If your character wouldn't know someone is passing behind them, that's fine - you can throw out a line to the effect of "...engaged in furious haggling, the merchant seems unaware of the guards gathering behind her manacles in hand...

iActively [/i]Ignore People
Bear with me, this isn't as bad as it sounds and is actually pretty similar to the above.

Is there a character on the street with a sandwichboard, heralding the endtimes? Ignore them with an emote. Tell everyone in the vicinity that your character doesn't give a rip about the wild eyed halfling's prophecy (but you do!) by emoting your character's disdainful frowny faces. Give that weirdo the side eye, whisper to your friends, shield your...uh...familiar's? eyes from the strange man on the corner. Do this, and you've just actively engaged in someone's RP while your character is ignoring them. They might even pick up on this, and come over for a funny little interaction where they 'annoy' your character, but not you the player.

The added benefit of this is that it can be used as a player-to-player communication tool. If you're emoting your heart out out and people are responding and acknowledging that you're part of the scene, you can infer that at least someone's having fun with what you're doing. If you're out in the square and no one's sparing so much as a comma for you, well...maybe you aren't reading your audience well and need to adjust your approach.

Use tells
[This can also be called "communicate."
Did you just use the Active Ignore method above? Send the player a message letting them know you appreciate what they're doing. Sometimes, people can interpret the stinkeye from another character as the same thing as the stinkeye from a player. No need to blow up the person's screen in green, just a simple, "hey I see what you're doing, I appreciate it, godspeed." Keep those avenues open and be friendly with your fellow players.

Or maybe you just really liked an emote someone did, and you want to tell them. Chances are, they want to hear you liked the thing they did. Have a good, long afternoon of intensely emotional Beljuril shopping that you thoroughly enjoyed? Say something! Sometimes people don't feel included when you've tried in character, and simply expressing appreciation can help with that.

There are some players who don't appreciate these kinds of tells. Maybe it ruins their immersion. That's fair, they can use -notells to opt out.

Less Infosec
Okay! We've moved behind a locked door with maxed DC? Great. We've cast Truesight to check for stealthers? Cool. We've gone ahead and REDACTED to ensure that people can't scry on us? Fantastic, better throw down a -ward in a conspicuous to foil spies and blow out everyone's headphone speakers. What are we forgetting? Oh, yeah, no one else can play with us right now.

I get it, if you're meeting with the Commander (in the general, not any specific commander. ilu horc commander guy) to sniff out a mole in the guard, you might want to make an effort. But you should always consider leaving purposeful flaws in your security so others can participate in the intrigue. Step aside to whisper where stealthers can hear you. Let your whispers leak out to passerbies. Forget to ward against scrying sometimes. It's not like your character's going to get deleted if a nosy Sharran wizard hears your secrets. After all, you can trust those guys to only distribute secrets among the faithful.

Oh, also, maybe hire that nice young man who looks like he might say farewell with a "Dark blessings to your cycle!". He's trustworthy, right? Let him prove himself untrustworthy via interactions, and reap the consequences of his evilry and skulduggery.

Ask Permission To Beat Them
Is that halfling really grinding your half orc's gears? Beat the crap out of them! Wind up the old arm and let loose. Knock a tooth out - but maybe try emoting it first?

News flash, going to the death area is boring at best and it mechanically ends the loser's involvement in the scene. The area itself bland. You're stuck there for a minute, gotta navigate the maze, and aren't allowed to remember anything anyways, so there's really not a whole lot to do up there that's engaging.

So if you're going to beat the snot out that little jerk, try to slug him in the mouth with text first. The key element here is to speak in tentative voice. Don't Godemote breaking his nose with a punches the hin's face off his skull. Instead, throw out a with a snarl, sends a fist flying at picky mcpocket's face. This gives the player a chance to react in a satisfying way and be included even if they decide to take the punch.

If they're not playing ball with that, whip out the old hostiler and give them the best knife-goose subdualing you've got. Beyond that, well, you've tried to make some fun for them. Time for finger of death. But really, try to engage with people first. If you're at the point where you don't trust your fellow players to have fun with you, you've already lost the game.


Anyway, those are a few things I try to do in an attempt to make fun and include people. It's not one size fits all, but I find it helps.


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Re: Inclusive RP - what does it mean to you?

Post by Rei_Jin » Sat Apr 22, 2023 3:28 am

The "Less Infosec" one is... hmm.

See, let's consider what happens when one wants to carry out a raid, as per server rules.

And, let's assume it's the nasty Myonian elves who want to go beat down some filthy drow or, the nasty Andunorian drow who want to go beat down some snooty elves. Either way, same boundaries apply.

If it's a soft raid (kidnap an official, for example), then they need to notify the DMs through the DM channel both before and during the raid, and they need to accomplish their goal (or attempt and fail) and then depart. If they actually want a chance at succeeding, then they really should be taking caution with their security to block scrying and not letting in unknowns.

If it's a hard raid (attempting to kill all the NPCs in a settlement and raid their storehouses), then they need to give the DM team two weeks advance notice, and then maintain security of their intelligence during that time, so as to even have a remote chance of success. I can guarantee you that if one faction learns another is taking 2 weeks to prepare an assault, that they'll do all they can to trounce them when they arrive.

And that's fine, to a degree.

But what fun is it if the defenders always win, regardless of WHO is the defending team?

If that's how it's going to be, then folks will stop doing raids, and they'll go do other things.

For me, when it comes to information security, inclusive RP doesn't mean including your enemies before the fact, whether by deliberate holes left in said security for OOC reasons, or by telling them you're coming.

It can mean taking risks to get intelligence, risks that could backfire.

It can mean trying to engage OOC with a member of the opposing faction around rules of engagement and boundaries, so that folk can build a rapport and try to ensure that there's no bad feeling OOC.

And it can mean, after said raid or whatever happens, touching base with the opposition OOC (to make sure all is alright, give opportunities for feedback) and/or IC ("Hahah, we beat you, now do you want to talk terms?" Or alternatively "Vith, you defeated us! We'll get you next time!) so that it's not just a raid from nowhere or a conflict with no bigger story, and they're left with more questions than answers.

All that said, this is a complex issue, and one that, if you take the time to think about it and try to respect folks behind other screens who are involved, you can usually work through in a way that turns out okay.


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Old Lies Die Harder
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Re: Inclusive RP - what does it mean to you?

Post by Old Lies Die Harder » Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:37 am

Rei_Jin wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2023 3:28 am

The "Less Infosec" one is... hmm.

See, let's consider what happens when one wants to carry out a raid, as per server rules.

And, let's assume it's the nasty Myonian elves who want to go beat down some filthy drow or, the nasty Andunorian drow who want to go beat down some snooty elves. Either way, same boundaries apply.

If it's a soft raid (kidnap an official, for example), then they need to notify the DMs through the DM channel both before and during the raid, and they need to accomplish their goal (or attempt and fail) and then depart. If they actually want a chance at succeeding, then they really should be taking caution with their security to block scrying and not letting in unknowns.

If it's a hard raid (attempting to kill all the NPCs in a settlement and raid their storehouses), then they need to give the DM team two weeks advance notice, and then maintain security of their intelligence during that time, so as to even have a remote chance of success. I can guarantee you that if one faction learns another is taking 2 weeks to prepare an assault, that they'll do all they can to trounce them when they arrive.

And that's fine, to a degree.

But what fun is it if the defenders always win, regardless of WHO is the defending team?

If that's how it's going to be, then folks will stop doing raids, and they'll go do other things.

For me, when it comes to information security, inclusive RP doesn't mean including your enemies before the fact, whether by deliberate holes left in said security for OOC reasons, or by telling them you're coming.

It can mean taking risks to get intelligence, risks that could backfire.

It can mean trying to engage OOC with a member of the opposing faction around rules of engagement and boundaries, so that folk can build a rapport and try to ensure that there's no bad feeling OOC.

And it can mean, after said raid or whatever happens, touching base with the opposition OOC (to make sure all is alright, give opportunities for feedback) and/or IC ("Hahah, we beat you, now do you want to talk terms?" Or alternatively "Vith, you defeated us! We'll get you next time!) so that it's not just a raid from nowhere or a conflict with no bigger story, and they're left with more questions than answers.

All that said, this is a complex issue, and one that, if you take the time to think about it and try to respect folks behind other screens who are involved, you can usually work through in a way that turns out okay.

The "Less infosec" one is a prime example of the preface of "Can all of these things be done all the time to the extent I try to? No. Are they appropriate in all situations? Probably not. But an effort goes a long way."

Take that one with a healthy amount of hyperbole. There are some situations which need greater infosec for the reasons you elucidated, but it must always be balanced by the questions, "Who am I playing with? What is the benefit?" If the answer is ever, "Just myself/my friends/faction" and "we're more likely to be successful", then a lot of very serious consideration needs to be applied. Remember if things aren't discoverable, interaction possibilities are heavily reduced.

The question of "what is the fun if the defenders always win, regardless of WHO is on the defending team" can be applied in the opposite direction. What is the fun if the attackers always win from their vantage of perfect surprise on an unprepared victim?

There's not a one-size fits all solution, but I will say that from my years in playing in various RP communities, the more surprised the done are by the do-ers, the more likely you end up creating situations where people go, "Well, that kinda blew, I wish I had those hours back." The more that feeling happens, the worse off a community is, I'd say.


Khorvale
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Re: Inclusive RP - what does it mean to you?

Post by Khorvale » Sat Apr 22, 2023 7:58 am

Old Lies Die Harder wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:03 pm

There's a ton of good stuff in here, more than I can really read and digest without a corresponding six week intensive course.

Here's a handful of things that I try to do with the intent of bringing in other people. Can all of these things be done all the time to the extent I try to? No. Are they appropriate in all situations? Probably not. But an effort goes a long way.

Now, because this is the internet, please take the tone of the following as 'jovial and humorous'. That's how it's intended.

Acknowledge Everyone
Make an effort to make a post at as many characters that pass within your sphere as possible. This can be as simple as a "Good day, miss!" to something more directly engaging with them. Many of us were taught not to provoke our friends, but the basis of RP is provoking and responding to interactions. Not a cheery character? No problem. Emote stepping away from that guy on the street. Write a short line about giving that passing Banite/Paladin the stinkeye. Something. Anything, to let the player of the character who's just arrived know that you the player are aware of them. If your character wouldn't know someone is passing behind them, that's fine - you can throw out a line to the effect of "...engaged in furious haggling, the merchant seems unaware of the guards gathering behind her manacles in hand...

iActively [/i]Ignore People
Bear with me, this isn't as bad as it sounds and is actually pretty similar to the above.

Is there a character on the street with a sandwichboard, heralding the endtimes? Ignore them with an emote. Tell everyone in the vicinity that your character doesn't give a rip about the wild eyed halfling's prophecy (but you do!) by emoting your character's disdainful frowny faces. Give that weirdo the side eye, whisper to your friends, shield your...uh...familiar's? eyes from the strange man on the corner. Do this, and you've just actively engaged in someone's RP while your character is ignoring them. They might even pick up on this, and come over for a funny little interaction where they 'annoy' your character, but not you the player.

The added benefit of this is that it can be used as a player-to-player communication tool. If you're emoting your heart out out and people are responding and acknowledging that you're part of the scene, you can infer that at least someone's having fun with what you're doing. If you're out in the square and no one's sparing so much as a comma for you, well...maybe you aren't reading your audience well and need to adjust your approach.

Use tells
[This can also be called "communicate."
Did you just use the Active Ignore method above? Send the player a message letting them know you appreciate what they're doing. Sometimes, people can interpret the stinkeye from another character as the same thing as the stinkeye from a player. No need to blow up the person's screen in green, just a simple, "hey I see what you're doing, I appreciate it, godspeed." Keep those avenues open and be friendly with your fellow players.

Or maybe you just really liked an emote someone did, and you want to tell them. Chances are, they want to hear you liked the thing they did. Have a good, long afternoon of intensely emotional Beljuril shopping that you thoroughly enjoyed? Say something! Sometimes people don't feel included when you've tried in character, and simply expressing appreciation can help with that.

There are some players who don't appreciate these kinds of tells. Maybe it ruins their immersion. That's fair, they can use -notells to opt out.

Less Infosec
Okay! We've moved behind a locked door with maxed DC? Great. We've cast Truesight to check for stealthers? Cool. We've gone ahead and REDACTED to ensure that people can't scry on us? Fantastic, better throw down a -ward in a conspicuous to foil spies and blow out everyone's headphone speakers. What are we forgetting? Oh, yeah, no one else can play with us right now.

I get it, if you're meeting with the Commander (in the general, not any specific commander. ilu horc commander guy) to sniff out a mole in the guard, you might want to make an effort. But you should always consider leaving purposeful flaws in your security so others can participate in the intrigue. Step aside to whisper where stealthers can hear you. Let your whispers leak out to passerbies. Forget to ward against scrying sometimes. It's not like your character's going to get deleted if a nosy Sharran wizard hears your secrets. After all, you can trust those guys to only distribute secrets among the faithful.

Oh, also, maybe hire that nice young man who looks like he might say farewell with a "Dark blessings to your cycle!". He's trustworthy, right? Let him prove himself untrustworthy via interactions, and reap the consequences of his evilry and skulduggery.

Ask Permission To Beat Them
Is that halfling really grinding your half orc's gears? Beat the crap out of them! Wind up the old arm and let loose. Knock a tooth out - but maybe try emoting it first?

News flash, going to the death area is boring at best and it mechanically ends the loser's involvement in the scene. The area itself bland. You're stuck there for a minute, gotta navigate the maze, and aren't allowed to remember anything anyways, so there's really not a whole lot to do up there that's engaging.

So if you're going to beat the snot out that little jerk, try to slug him in the mouth with text first. The key element here is to speak in tentative voice. Don't Godemote breaking his nose with a punches the hin's face off his skull. Instead, throw out a with a snarl, sends a fist flying at picky mcpocket's face. This gives the player a chance to react in a satisfying way and be included even if they decide to take the punch.

If they're not playing ball with that, whip out the old hostiler and give them the best knife-goose subdualing you've got. Beyond that, well, you've tried to make some fun for them. Time for finger of death. But really, try to engage with people first. If you're at the point where you don't trust your fellow players to have fun with you, you've already lost the game.

This is all good stuff and, as someone who primarily plays evil bastards, stuff I try to operate by. Which means I will never win at PvP but I knew that going in 8-)

Honestly I feel like trying to play Evil, but still being OOC'ly considerate is a great study in inclusivity, because you have to find that thin line where you don't misrepresent your character (too much, in "reality" my primary would probably jump straight to kill and then defile the corpse in unspeakable ways but that's no fun for anyone not on a power fantasy trip) while also leaving room for other players to participate in a "safe space"

In terms of acknowledgment I always try to keep a few macros on my hotbars for exactly that, so even if I don't have the time or inclination to get deeply involved in a friendly neighborly chat in the halls of Andunor hub, I can at least use those to acknowledge someone's attempt to engage me.

In terms of tells, I always send people a small "Sorry my character is a horrible creature" after having acted like a meanie around them and so far it's always been appreciated.

One of my core rules when I run pen & paper games is "dare to be dumb", meaning that you need to let your character do all the dumb things you see people doing in TV and movies, for the sake of drama. This is tricky in PW games, because some people tend to get overly invested in their characters, maybe especially the kind of players who have spent years on them, which can lead to them having a hard time distinguishing between in-game offenses and off-game offenses and not wanting to play less than optimally. Also, we don't really have the luxury of cutting a scene before it gets dumb, or fading to black, and bailing from on-going RP (even if it mostly just someone dragging out their own self-aggrandizement) is a no-no, so if you want to be considered one of the roleplayers that sometimes means suffering through some navel-gazers shitty monologue before they then insta-kill you with their pvp super-prep :D

And of course, a lot of people (like myself) have all sorts of diagnoses that makes us weird and prickly and complicated in various social relations from time to time :)


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Re: Inclusive RP - what does it mean to you?

Post by magistrasa » Sat Apr 22, 2023 10:49 am

The current course of conversation is a great example of how consideration can't turn into a blanket ruling that's blind to individual circumstances. What's "inclusive" for one player or storyline can be insulting to, or undermines the narrative of, another. If you rotely practice the same habit with every player you come across, you're not exactly behaving mindfully - in fact, without taking in the individual circumstances, you're really behaving mindLESSly.

The raid scenario is a good example. Trying to be "inclusive" to the enemy you've set your group up against by purposefully undermining everyone's collective chance of success isn't always going to create good roleplay for the players and characters who placed their trust in you. At the same time, sometimes a loss that's willingly accepted can be meaningful for all parties involved. The context that story beat fits into needs to be accounted for.

Likewise, sending tells and communicating OOCly with people in a jovial and friendly way. I know I absolutely hate it. If someone does that consistently enough to me, I simply block them. I'm just not interested in seeing "thanks for the RP!" or "sorry I'm playing a jerk!" after a few minutes of milquetoast dialogue and there's no crime more offensive to me than meta jokes fired my way in the middle of a scene (or perhaps more egregious - people trying to guess my player identity from my mannerisms in roleplay). Oftentimes it comes across as bland virtue signaling - the kind of thing that someone reads about in a thread like this and says "ok i guess that's what good roleplayers do" so they blithely insert the habit into their routine without bothering to analyze how their actions actually affect the people around them. It shows. It always shows.

That being said, there are times where I can tell some nugget of roleplay was truly meaningful to someone and they're reaching out in the hopes of creating a genuine connection. Or moments where I can tell someone was really emotionally affected by what's happened to their character, where I come off my high horse and reach out to them to make sure they're processing the scene in a healthy way. Or situations where it's obvious someone's still kind of new to the scene or the community and I can tell some encouragement and direction can go a long way. More often than not, those are the instances where OOC communication has the biggest positive impact, and I've gotten more than one lifelong friendship (and exactly one husband) out of the experience. So I'd be a hypocrite to say "/tells bad" when they can definitely be a tool for good.

The point I'm trying to make is that true inclusivity hinges on consideration. If you're habitually applying the same behaviors to every scenario and every player, you're not actually being considerate, and so you're probably not being inclusive either.

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Re: Inclusive RP - what does it mean to you?

Post by Eira » Sat Apr 22, 2023 11:53 am

magistrasa wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2023 10:49 am

The point I'm trying to make is that true inclusivity hinges on consideration. If you're habitually applying the same behaviors to every scenario and every player, you're not actually being considerate, and so you're probably not being inclusive either.

Absolutely this. Inclusivity and consideration are not just made from boxes to check off. There are a lot of good ideas, but one should also look at the core thinking behind them and not just the actions themselves.

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Re: Inclusive RP - what does it mean to you?

Post by Fume » Sun Apr 23, 2023 2:00 am

So many great ideas and points of view.
Perhaps the only thing I would add, which may or may of not been mentioned already is,
Do not base your play or rely on other players to fullfill your perceived goals.
Welcome and indugle in interaction when it happens, but dont 'expect' others to yield to your concepts of play.
What stuck with me when I was new here is that there are plenty of different play styles on Arelith, and I took that onboard.
Im what you would probably call a fringe player.
I love the setting and lore, but avoid interacting too much or getting too involved in plots coz RL for me is too chaotic.
Gone are the days when I could play out a few hours of awesome RP as at any moment, my children could and inevitably do most of the time burst in with a problem.
I write about things, do posts and enjoy the lore and merchant side as this suits my erratic play style. But sometimes people may take my characters reluctance to join a writ or similar as non inclusive. This is wrong i just dont want to pull out half way through something im.not sure i can finish.
Comes back to yet another angle i thought worth mentioning.
Different playstyles should also be considered, it might not just be non inclusivity as such.
Love the world and the players and when i do get to play, enjoy it immensely!


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Re: Inclusive RP - what does it mean to you?

Post by Khorvale » Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:00 pm

Fume wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 2:00 am

So many great ideas and points of view.
Perhaps the only thing I would add, which may or may of not been mentioned already is,
Do not base your play or rely on other players to fullfill your perceived goals.
Welcome and indugle in interaction when it happens, but dont 'expect' others to yield to your concepts of play.
What stuck with me when I was new here is that there are plenty of different play styles on Arelith, and I took that onboard.
Im what you would probably call a fringe player.
I love the setting and lore, but avoid interacting too much or getting too involved in plots coz RL for me is too chaotic.
Gone are the days when I could play out a few hours of awesome RP as at any moment, my children could and inevitably do most of the time burst in with a problem.
I write about things, do posts and enjoy the lore and merchant side as this suits my erratic play style. But sometimes people may take my characters reluctance to join a writ or similar as non inclusive. This is wrong i just dont want to pull out half way through something im.not sure i can finish.
Comes back to yet another angle i thought worth mentioning.
Different playstyles should also be considered, it might not just be non inclusivity as such.
Love the world and the players and when i do get to play, enjoy it immensely!

This is a very real issue, in that in most roleplay-oriented PWs it tends to become the, for lack of a better term, "no-lifers" who define what the "state of the art" is in terms of playstyle, commitment and so on. In my experience, anyway.
Which can then lead to a problematic sort of feedback loop where both players and DMs start gravitating towards these (overly) engaged players who have the luxury of RP'ing their heart out and furthering their agendas (sometimes both IC and OOC) for many hours a day, maybe every day, perhaps even the entire weekend, which then tends to raise the bar for what is considered expected engagement on part of players, and naturally results in some level of "exclusion" as some plotlines and events will simply be unavailable to engage with in a meaningful way for players with less time on their hands.
Or, as you say, us more casual players will start to avoid engaging because we simply don't have the time required to do so, to the (perceived) expectations of the more free-time-rich players


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Re: Inclusive RP - what does it mean to you?

Post by Biolab00 » Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:51 am

Khorvale wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:00 pm
Fume wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 2:00 am

So many great ideas and points of view.
Perhaps the only thing I would add, which may or may of not been mentioned already is,
Do not base your play or rely on other players to fullfill your perceived goals.
Welcome and indugle in interaction when it happens, but dont 'expect' others to yield to your concepts of play.
What stuck with me when I was new here is that there are plenty of different play styles on Arelith, and I took that onboard.
Im what you would probably call a fringe player.
I love the setting and lore, but avoid interacting too much or getting too involved in plots coz RL for me is too chaotic.
Gone are the days when I could play out a few hours of awesome RP as at any moment, my children could and inevitably do most of the time burst in with a problem.
I write about things, do posts and enjoy the lore and merchant side as this suits my erratic play style. But sometimes people may take my characters reluctance to join a writ or similar as non inclusive. This is wrong i just dont want to pull out half way through something im.not sure i can finish.
Comes back to yet another angle i thought worth mentioning.
Different playstyles should also be considered, it might not just be non inclusivity as such.
Love the world and the players and when i do get to play, enjoy it immensely!

This is a very real issue, in that in most roleplay-oriented PWs it tends to become the, for lack of a better term, "no-lifers" who define what the "state of the art" is in terms of playstyle, commitment and so on. In my experience, anyway.
Which can then lead to a problematic sort of feedback loop where both players and DMs start gravitating towards these (overly) engaged players who have the luxury of RP'ing their heart out and furthering their agendas (sometimes both IC and OOC) for many hours a day, maybe every day, perhaps even the entire weekend, which then tends to raise the bar for what is considered expected engagement on part of players, and naturally results in some level of "exclusion" as some plotlines and events will simply be unavailable to engage with in a meaningful way for players with less time on their hands.
Or, as you say, us more casual players will start to avoid engaging because we simply don't have the time required to do so, to the (perceived) expectations of the more free-time-rich players

While i understand that not all players have equaivalent hours of playing time, this isn't the crux of problem.
How long you're able to play is solely based on your own interest, time management and commitment. It's not the reason to punish those who are willing to invest, willing to give and spend their time in this game.
Particularly this "no-lifers", i'm not sure if i interpret it correctly on what you mean but i do find it quite bizarre on how you came to this conclusion. They're more than enough players that i know who enjoy this game, are married and committed to their families and children as well.


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Re: Inclusive RP - what does it mean to you?

Post by Morgy » Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:43 am

Khorvale wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:00 pm

This is a very real issue, in that in most roleplay-oriented PWs it tends to become the, for lack of a better term, "no-lifers" who define what the "state of the art" is in terms of playstyle, commitment and so on. In my experience, anyway.

What a lovely way to describe your fellow players in a topic of inclusivity. I'm sure you could have picked a nicer term if you took a moment to. Perhaps not thinking a bit more about each other is the actual crux of the problem.

Of course the more time you commit to something, often the more involved you become. That's sort of how everything in the world works. That is unrelated to uninterrupted play, as mentioned by the player you quoted.. Any immersive RP'ing experience on a live server, with others, is going to become tricky if you have frequent interruptions during your play time. That's simply unavoidable when you can't pause - really nothing to do with what you're saying.


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Re: Inclusive RP - what does it mean to you?

Post by DM Starfish » Mon Apr 24, 2023 6:11 am

This topic has run it's course and seems to no longer be productive. Locked for posterity.

Roleplay is a two way street.

Locked