Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

[LurkingShadow]

Or that of late, I noticed many attacks by "villians" happen at 5-6-7 AM in the morning for GMT. That is quite an odd way of doing things aswell, avoiding prime time to get "easy" wins?

So you're arguing that antagonists can only engage in PvP in your prime time? We have people all over the world playing on the server, there's nothing wrong with them wanting to do this in their own prime time. 5/6/7 am GMT is pretty much prime time in the US, where more than half the player base is.

Are these players forced to join in the chaos because antagonists feel offended by them just walking away? Or what is the point here?

To an extent, they are. When you log in to Arelith you enter a contract to abide by the rules, the first of which is to Roleplay. Arelith is not a setting of peace and collaboration only. As Marsi said, you are someone's antagonist. So you do have to roleplay with them. If you hate villains OOCly that is entirely on you, Arelith would be a much poorer place were all villain characters to leave.

I strongly advice you to try shed this mentality. Go play in the Underdark, be a villain, be a monster. Your perspective might change.

It is very convenient a lot of attacks happens when the player numbers seem to be the lowest.

What mentality? Who said my character is not a monster? Or hostile? But when I see things just lead into PvP, Im not impressed with such antagonists. Goes both ways, PvP is not interesting. Nor do find antagonistic mindsets just to "destroy" interesting.

[Amateur Hour]

I used to have similar feelings about the timing of the attacks. They seemed to be too convenient.

...then I realized the antagonists' players lived on the exact opposite side of the globe from me, so these horribly inconvenient times for me to game were incredibly convenient for them.

[-XXX-]

Timezones are a thing and can be a source of frustration at times, but nobody should feel compelled to stay online way past their bedtime.

It'd be good for players to keep in mind that their character doesn't have to be the protagonist of every major story that takes place on the server.
The notion that entire factions lie in wait until certain players log off before they make their move would likely fall into the tinfoil hat category.

[DM Poppy]

To respond to a general mindset -

You are not entitled to pick and choose what players are permitted to interact with you. Nor can you simply dismiss the interaction of other Characters because it's doesn't immediately benefit your own, this is a Roleplaying Server.

Good and Evil come face to face and conflit happens. If you want to avoid the conflict, you can attempt to do so by not placing your Character in situations where they will be involved in the first place. Don't conjure Undead in Arelith Forest. Don't Lawful Good in the Underdark. Don't break the law infront of Guard Characters.

Putting yourself in the situtations you do not like and not enjoying the outcome, is on you.

Also. PvP does not require your permission or your concent. Provided the rules are followed.

Or that of late, I noticed many attacks by "villians" happen at 5-6-7 AM in the morning for GMT. That is quite an odd way of doing things aswell, avoiding prime time to get "easy" wins?

To the above argument exclusively.

This is a very poorly considered observation. At a quick glance, your timezones is GMT +1. For parts of America and Australia, their prime time is your 6-7AM, it's not that they choose to wait until your morning cup of coffee to do their dastardly deeds.

Their is absolutely no fault in that. Nor is their any obligation or expectation for them to play for other peoples hours. In the story of Arelith, you are the main Character in only your own tale.

[WanderingPoet]

I used to have similar feelings about the timing of the attacks. They seemed to be too convenient.

...then I realized the antagonists' players lived on the exact opposite side of the globe from me, so these horribly inconvenient times for me to game were incredibly convenient for them.

That's a great observation!

All that said, if you -are- an antagonist, it's a good practice to observe the timezones of those you're conflicting with. It'll make it more fun for both sides if your narrative foe is not asleep 95% of the time you want to do things.

It's difficult to do, but most players in a particular group/settlement will end have a similar timezone to eachother, or a peak time. After all, a settlement/group that is busy is going to attract more people to play there, and they'll be busiest during their peak time, reinforcing that busy time. If an antagonist is repeatedly attacking at off peak times for their narrative foe, it's going to end up being dissatisfying for both sides. The antagonist will only catch a few stragglers, while the defenders will feel weak and unable to do anything about it without sacrificing real life sleep/priorities to maybe be able to catch them.

5-7AM GMT is prime time for the north american side of the server, while I've seen that Euro prime time tends to be about 7 hours earlier. Some settlements/groups are more heavily euro leaning, so if you want to conflict with them then I suggest bumping your engagement times back a few hours so that they can participate and feel like they're actually able to be part of the narrative.

[LurkingShadow]

To respond to a general mindset -

You are not entitled to pick and choose what players are permitted to interact with you. Nor can you simply dismiss the interaction of other Characters because it's doesn't immediately benefit your own, this is a Roleplaying Server.

Good and Evil come face to face and conflit happens. If you want to avoid the conflict, you can attempt to do so by not placing your Character in situations where they will be involved in the first place. Don't conjure Undead in Arelith Forest. Don't Lawful Good in the Underdark. Don't break the law infront of Guard Characters.

Putting yourself in the situtations you do not like and not enjoying the outcome, is on you.

Also. PvP does not require your permission or your concent. Provided the rules are followed.

Or that of late, I noticed many attacks by "villians" happen at 5-6-7 AM in the morning for GMT. That is quite an odd way of doing things aswell, avoiding prime time to get "easy" wins?

To the above argument exclusively.

This is a very poorly considered observation. At a quick glance, your timezones is GMT +1. For parts of America and Australia, their prime time is your 6-7AM, it's not that they choose to wait until your morning cup of coffee to do their dastardly deeds.

Their is absolutely no fault in that. Nor is their any obligation or expectation for them to play for other peoples hours. In the story of Arelith, you are the main Character in only your own tale.

Midnight or 1 AM to a lot of Ameircans is prime time? I would say a lot is already in bed to head to school or work the day after. I am confident some people do pick times that is "the least resistance".

[DM Poppy]

1 AM to 8AM GMT is 5PM to 12AM PST. So yes. Your bed time is their prime time.

Australia is generally 8 to 11 hours ahead. So 1AM to 8AM GMT would (If we do 9.5 for average.) would be 9:30AM to 5:30PM. Again. A large proportion of their day, whilst you are asleep.

Don't be difficult.

[Aradin]

Midnight or 1 AM to a lot of Ameircans is prime time? I would say a lot is already in bed to head to school or work the day after. I am confident some people do pick times that is "the least resistance".

Respectfully, you don't know when other people have the time to play. It might be midnight, might be 4pm, might be 4am. We all have different lives, and many of us are in different time zones. I would recommend that you try not to assign malicious intent to other players; if you're trying to keep tabs on when other people are playing so that you can, what, feel vindictive about it, I'd recommend not doing that. It'll just stress you out. If you think another player is acting maliciously, report them to a DM. But I don't think this is a positive or useful group discussion to have.

[LurkingShadow]

1 AM to 8AM GMT is 5PM to 12AM PST. So yes. Your bed time is their prime time.

Don't be difficult.

That is Pacific standard time. But I know many are east coast players. US east coast is heavily populated to. 6 AM for me, is midnight for the east coast. EDIT: But yes, lets make it not difficult.

Midnight or 1 AM to a lot of Ameircans is prime time? I would say a lot is already in bed to head to school or work the day after. I am confident some people do pick times that is "the least resistance".

Respectfully, you don't know when other people have the time to play. It might be midnight, might be 4pm, might be 4am. We all have different lives, and many of us are in different time zones. I would recommend that you try not to assign malicious intent to other players; if you're trying to keep tabs on when other people are playing so that you can, what, feel vindictive about it, I'd recommend not doing that. It'll just stress you out. If you think another player is acting maliciously, report them to a DM. But I don't think this is a positive or useful group discussion to have.

Makes a lot of sense. But at the end of the day, we all know there is players who do these kind of things and we all need to be open to report them.

[Waldo52]

To respond to a general mindset -

You are not entitled to pick and choose what players are permitted to interact with you. Nor can you simply dismiss the interaction of other Characters because it's doesn't immediately benefit your own, this is a Roleplaying Server.

Thank you. It feels good to have this sentiment validated by a DM. I'd like to chime in with a random anecdote.

I knew an intellectually disabled man who had a peculiar behavior. Even though he could read, watch TV and had some awareness of what was going on in the news, he would rarely respond when spoken to. It was part of his disability. You could ask him "what do you want to eat?" eighty times and he'd usually say nothing that could be considered an answer. Oddly enough, he was VERY verbal, but didn't respond to others much. I digress.

These experiences with characters who just don't respond to my villains remind me a lot of this man. The difference being that if you were role playing an eccentric or intellectually disabled character you might put descriptions of his non-interaction in asterisks. Ignores you, seemingly oblivious or continues walking as though you weren't there. That would constitute some sort of interaction and participation in the world/story/what have you. The villain would know that you were acting strangely, and he could react accordingly. Simply walking away from hostile interactions because they don't interest you and you want them to go away is unacceptable. This sort of behavior creates absurd in-character situations where you're essentially being held at gunpoint and ignoring the assailant, chewing bubble gum and thinking about what you're going to cook for dinner. In the unlikely event that this is how your CHARACTER would respond, at least role play it and accept the visit to Kelemvor's Wall.

[LurkingShadow]

To respond to a general mindset -

You are not entitled to pick and choose what players are permitted to interact with you. Nor can you simply dismiss the interaction of other Characters because it's doesn't immediately benefit your own, this is a Roleplaying Server.

Thank you. It feels good to have this sentiment validated by a DM. I'd like to chime in with a random anecdote.

I knew an intellectually disabled man who had a peculiar behavior. Even though he could read, watch TV and had some awareness of what was going on in the news, he would rarely respond when spoken to. It was part of his disability. You could ask him "what do you want to eat?" eighty times and he'd usually say nothing that could be considered an answer. Oddly enough, he was VERY verbal, but didn't respond to others much. I digress.

These experiences with characters who just don't respond to my villains remind me a lot of this man. The difference being that if you were role playing an eccentric or intellectually disabled character you might put descriptions of his non-interaction in asterisks. Ignores you, seemingly oblivious or continues walking as though you weren't there. That would constitute some sort of interaction and participation in the world/story/what have you. The villain would know that you were acting strangely, and he could react accordingly. Simply walking away from hostile interactions because they don't interest you and you want them to go away is unacceptable. This sort of behavior creates absurd in-character situations where you're essentially being held at gunpoint and ignoring the assailant, chewing bubble gum and thinking about what you're going to cook for dinner. In the unlikely event that this is how your CHARACTER would respond, at least role play it and accept the visit to Kelemvor's Wall.

And how often does this happen to you? You speak as if this is the standard take on your character. Why are people doing this to you of all people if this is a standard response? I have not seen much people do the ignore part on Arelith to be frank.

[Ork]

And how often does this happen to you? You speak as if this is the standard take on your character. Why are people doing this to you of all people if this is a standard response? I have not seen much people do the ignore part on Arelith to be frank.

It happens frequently enough to demoralize antagonists. It's happened to me enough times that I can't count them on my hands, but certainly not greater than 20. Players don't get to choose what their character is subjected to in game. As long as we are all playing along with the rules, and making an attempt to create genuinely interesting encounters, you should be open to all manner of roleplay antagonistic or otherwise.

There are many within our community that feel all roleplay that involves their character must be given their explicit consent, but that's not how multiplayer roleplay works. I've gotten tells saying "I don't consent to being PvP" and the response everytime should be "well, that's too damn bad".

It's one thing if you're about to log out or you've got kids you need to go manage or it's really inconvenient timing but that's not what OP is describing. It's the players that think the rules don't apply to them and that they can choose to ignore the roleplay that doesn't promote their character and only engage in roleplay on their terms.

Go with the flow. It's fun. Get out of whatever discord echo chamber is telling your adversaries are choosing to attack locations when your faction isn't on. They're toxic af and definitely wearing tinfoil hats.

[LurkingShadow]

And how often does this happen to you? You speak as if this is the standard take on your character. Why are people doing this to you of all people if this is a standard response? I have not seen much people do the ignore part on Arelith to be frank.

It happens frequently enough to demoralize antagonists. It's happened to me enough times that I can't count them on my hands, but certainly not greater than 20. Players don't get to choose what their character is subjected to in game. As long as we are all playing along with the rules, and making an attempt to create genuinely interesting encounters, you should be open to all manner of roleplay antagonistic or otherwise.

There are many within our community that feel all roleplay that involves their character must be given their explicit consent, but that's not how multiplayer roleplay works. I've gotten tells saying "I don't consent to being PvP" and the response everytime should be "well, that's too damn bad".

It's one thing if you're about to log out or you've got kids you need to go manage or it's really inconvenient timing but that's not what OP is describing. It's the players that think the rules don't apply to them and that they can choose to ignore the roleplay that doesn't promote their character and only engage in roleplay on their terms.

Go with the flow. It's fun.

Are you entitled to have people react ICly with words or emotes then if you're an antagonist? Are you entitled to always have fun on a villian/antagonist? I sure don't have fun all the time. People avoid or blame my PC for things. We cannot always get the things we want. A PC ignoring someone might be a legit reactions. Im pretty sure not everyone just goes "Dont PVP me, I do not consent".

EDIT: How do you know that ignoring is not an IC reaction?

[Ork]

I'm entitled to your roleplay, yes. If you're walking away without an emote, or engaging in the scenario, it's clear your intent is to not add to the scene.

[LurkingShadow]

I'm entitled to your roleplay, yes.

Okay, that is interesting. What makes you think you're entitled to my roleplay? Do I have to entertain you? Why am I not entitled to your roleplay then? Why do I have to make it fun for you but you not for me? If we gonna play the devils advocate here.

[Ork]

I don't think you understand the premise so let me flesh it out for you. Antagonist A is engaging Character B with roleplay. Could be, "There's a toll for this bridge here, savvy? Cough up the coin purse." That's the antagonist giving roleplay. If Character B engages with, "No never!" and runs - hey that's engaging with the scenario and roleplay! Everyone did good.

If instead Character B just turns around and transitions and then portals, that's a failure to engage, satisfies the rules for Antagonist A to PvP, and generally says that Character B can't be trusted to add to a narrative scene outside of their explicit control.

Why is scenario 2 worse than 1 because the outcome is certainly the same? In the scenario 1, you've a player that gives at least something for the antagonist to play off of. In scenario 2, the Character B is using the first act to secure their victory over the scene the antagonist set up and fails to provide anything meaningful for the antagonist to roleplay off of other than they're better off being corpsebashed.

[Eyeliner]

I was out walking last weekend in my neighborhood after dark and I guess I walked too close to a car and a guy wearing a mask hopped out and started shouting and threatening me. I was pretty freaked out and I did what I think most people would do in that situation... I kept my head down, I didn't make eye contact and I kept walking.

Just saying, removing yourself from an immediate threat ASAP is natural (even instinctual) behavior and I expect that comes through when players feel a twinge of panic when some other character ambushes them. Especially if they don't know them or what they're up to. Players should overcome that and RP it out, sure, but if you really want to initiate a conflict with someone you don't know then (as someone mentioned above) starting friendly or neutral before turning hostile is generally going to be a better move. Ease them into the situation.

[Ork]

I was out walking last weekend in my neighborhood after dark and I guess I walked too close to a car and a guy wearing a mask hopped out and started shouting and threatening me. I was pretty freaked out and I did what I think most people would do in that situation... I kept my head down, I didn't make eye contact and I kept walking.

Just saying, walking away from an immediate threat is natural and I expect that comes through when players feel a twinge of panic when some other character ambushes them, especially if they don't know them or what they're up to. Players should overcome that and RP it out, sure, but if you really want to engage someone in a conflict situation then (as someone mentioned above) starting friendly or neutral and turning hostile is generally going to be a better move. Ease them into the situation.

You irl can act with body posture, diverting your eyes, walking at a brisker pace but that isn't communicated in our game that relies on text. It's also real life where there's actual threat to bodily harm in that scenario. The only thing someone can lose in this game is their pride if they've done the cardinal sin of self-inserting.

If the same scenario happened in game, I'd honest expect the emote of hunches his shoulders, averts his eyes and quickens his pace. It costs you nothing and adds to the scene.

[Waldo52]

I was out walking last weekend in my neighborhood after dark and I guess I walked too close to a car and a guy wearing a mask hopped out and started shouting and threatening me. I was pretty freaked out and I did what I think most people would do in that situation... I kept my head down, I didn't make eye contact and I kept walking.

Just saying, removing yourself from an immediate threat ASAP is natural (even instinctual) behavior and I expect that comes through when players feel a twinge of panic when some other character ambushes them. Especially if they don't know them or what they're up to. Players should overcome that and RP it out, sure, but if you really want to initiate a conflict with someone you don't know then (as someone mentioned above) starting friendly or neutral before turning hostile is generally going to be a better move. Ease them into the situation.

I actually sort of agree.

I've experienced a bit of pilot error during the panic of confrontation, both on the aggressor and victim side of things. One time this resulted me in self-reporting a rule break and apologizing profusely to the other player who was pretty furious.

People do stupid things in the heat of the moment, and starting friendly and easing into the confrontation has yielded a lot of good results for me. But I don't think this should be mandatory.

[Waldo52]

To respond to a general mindset -

You are not entitled to pick and choose what players are permitted to interact with you. Nor can you simply dismiss the interaction of other Characters because it's doesn't immediately benefit your own, this is a Roleplaying Server.

Thank you. It feels good to have this sentiment validated by a DM. I'd like to chime in with a random anecdote.

I knew an intellectually disabled man who had a peculiar behavior. Even though he could read, watch TV and had some awareness of what was going on in the news, he would rarely respond when spoken to. It was part of his disability. You could ask him "what do you want to eat?" eighty times and he'd usually say nothing that could be considered an answer. Oddly enough, he was VERY verbal, but didn't respond to others much. I digress.

These experiences with characters who just don't respond to my villains remind me a lot of this man. The difference being that if you were role playing an eccentric or intellectually disabled character you might put descriptions of his non-interaction in asterisks. Ignores you, seemingly oblivious or continues walking as though you weren't there. That would constitute some sort of interaction and participation in the world/story/what have you. The villain would know that you were acting strangely, and he could react accordingly. Simply walking away from hostile interactions because they don't interest you and you want them to go away is unacceptable. This sort of behavior creates absurd in-character situations where you're essentially being held at gunpoint and ignoring the assailant, chewing bubble gum and thinking about what you're going to cook for dinner. In the unlikely event that this is how your CHARACTER would respond, at least role play it and accept the visit to Kelemvor's Wall.

And how often does this happen to you? You speak as if this is the standard take on your character. Why are people doing this to you of all people if this is a standard response? I have not seen much people do the ignore part on Arelith to be frank.

This is actually something that's happened to me about 10-20 times. Between Pigsbane, the Hinflayers, etc., I've seen it a lot.

[LurkingShadow]

Thank you. It feels good to have this sentiment validated by a DM. I'd like to chime in with a random anecdote.

I knew an intellectually disabled man who had a peculiar behavior. Even though he could read, watch TV and had some awareness of what was going on in the news, he would rarely respond when spoken to. It was part of his disability. You could ask him "what do you want to eat?" eighty times and he'd usually say nothing that could be considered an answer. Oddly enough, he was VERY verbal, but didn't respond to others much. I digress.

These experiences with characters who just don't respond to my villains remind me a lot of this man. The difference being that if you were role playing an eccentric or intellectually disabled character you might put descriptions of his non-interaction in asterisks. Ignores you, seemingly oblivious or continues walking as though you weren't there. That would constitute some sort of interaction and participation in the world/story/what have you. The villain would know that you were acting strangely, and he could react accordingly. Simply walking away from hostile interactions because they don't interest you and you want them to go away is unacceptable. This sort of behavior creates absurd in-character situations where you're essentially being held at gunpoint and ignoring the assailant, chewing bubble gum and thinking about what you're going to cook for dinner. In the unlikely event that this is how your CHARACTER would respond, at least role play it and accept the visit to Kelemvor's Wall.

And how often does this happen to you? You speak as if this is the standard take on your character. Why are people doing this to you of all people if this is a standard response? I have not seen much people do the ignore part on Arelith to be frank.

This is actually something that's happened to me about 10-20 times. Between Pigsbane, the Hinflayers, etc., I've seen it a lot.

Still, it can happen. As people stated above. Some just do the ignoring part. Could they emote? Sure. BUt not everyone can emote and walk. Especilly not console players.

[MischeviousMeerkat]

Sure, they may ignore you but eventually pushing other characters around will get a response. In fact, you'll easily find the opposite problem where you're fighting four people to your one.

[Inordinate]

Sure, they may ignore you but eventually pushing other characters around will get a response. In fact, you'll easily find the opposite problem where you're fighting four people to your one.

This doesn't seem to be about the eventuality of a plot developing but the trend that people are regularly stonewalling interaction from the very beginning. What happens after is irrelevant here.

[Waldo52]

Sure, they may ignore you but eventually pushing other characters around will get a response. In fact, you'll easily find the opposite problem where you're fighting four people to your one.

This doesn't seem to be about the eventuality of a plot developing but the trend that people are regularly stonewalling interaction from the very beginning. What happens after is irrelevant here.

Agreed.

This thread isn't about the IC consequences of evil actions and it never was.

[Perplexia]

i honestly find it incredibly disappointing that a total aversion towards PvP is so prevalent on this server, to the point of some players wishing to "opt out" of it entirely

do people really just hate losing that badly, or am i missing something?

All it takes are a few bad experiences with PvP encounters to scar a player againist further suffering. I mean, how many times does someone want to see there RP or dungeon run pounded into the ground by superior numbers/builds with little to no counter play? I can count on both hands the number of enjoyable (non winning BTW as I am terrible at builds) PvP encounters I have had over the years. More often then not its a one side greatly overpowering the other and using the PvP to control the narrative to there own ends with little interaction past "your evil now die!".

I don't know about you, but that's just not a very fun thing to experience often and we are here to have fun after all. Personally I don't blame the person who lens or bolts away at the sign of trouble, though I feel less so to one who logs as an OOC escape.

Just my personal thoughts on the matter.

after reading through the thread a bit, it seems like i've definitely gotten lucky in terms of satisfying PvP encounters, with each confrontation resulting in a lot of roleplay being generated – at least for the side of the victim

it's just a shame to hear these negative experiences are more common than i initially believed, i've witnessed some certainly questionable incidents in the past (and at least a couple of rule breaks) but was under the impression that they were few and far between

i definitely think the onus is on the antagonist (as in, whoever is instigating the PvP, regardless of alignment/affiliation) to be lenient towards their recipients, but i figure most people here already do a stellar job of this; it's more an issue with the greater Arelith playerbase than those who regularly interact with the forums