Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

[Rei_Jin]

Sometimes people (in bad faith) simply do not engage and will lens/attunement potion/teleport from hostile situations, or run off. This is bad.

Sometime people panic and do these things due to adrenaline triggering the fight or flight response. This is not ideal, but understandable.

We need to remember to be gracious with others, as there are literally thousands of people who log in to Arelith monthly, and they are not all seasoned PvPers, nor are they all mature adults who have had significant life experience to prepare them for dealing with things like PvP.

Not saying we should excuse bad behaviour, more that we need to see that sometimes what we think is bad behaviour is merely blind panic.

[Ork]

I'm fine giving leeway when warranted, but we're playing a roleplay server and I think we should expect our fellows to do the bare minimum here. I don't really buy the blind panic reaction though. This is a video game.

[LurkingShadow]

I'm fine giving leeway when warranted, but we're playing a roleplay server and I think we should expect our fellows to do the bare minimum here. I don't really buy the blind panic reaction though. This is a video game.

Never played intense competitive games? Some people react the same in NWN.

[WanderingPoet]

To respond to a general mindset -

You are not entitled to pick and choose what players are permitted to interact with you. Nor can you simply dismiss the interaction of other Characters because it's doesn't immediately benefit your own, this is a Roleplaying Server.

Good and Evil come face to face and conflit happens. If you want to avoid the conflict, you can attempt to do so by not placing your Character in situations where they will be involved in the first place. Don't conjure Undead in Arelith Forest. Don't Lawful Good in the Underdark. Don't break the law infront of Guard Characters.

Putting yourself in the situtations you do not like and not enjoying the outcome, is on you.

Also. PvP does not require your permission or your concent. Provided the rules are followed.

Or that of late, I noticed many attacks by "villians" happen at 5-6-7 AM in the morning for GMT. That is quite an odd way of doing things aswell, avoiding prime time to get "easy" wins?

To the above argument exclusively.

This is a very poorly considered observation. At a quick glance, your timezones is GMT +1. For parts of America and Australia, their prime time is your 6-7AM, it's not that they choose to wait until your morning cup of coffee to do their dastardly deeds.

Their is absolutely no fault in that. Nor is their any obligation or expectation for them to play for other peoples hours. In the story of Arelith, you are the main Character in only your own tale.

Midnight or 1 AM to a lot of Ameircans is prime time? I would say a lot is already in bed to head to school or work the day after. I am confident some people do pick times that is "the least resistance".

Also keep in mind that 10-11 Eastern/3-5am GMT is also middle of the night IG. A lot of Underdarker races are sunlight sensitive. The previous midnight is 6pm Eastern which is too early for a lot of people working.

There probably are some people that -do- pick those times specifically to find the least resistance, yes, there are always going to be problemsome people that have an I-Must-Win-At-All-Costs mentality. But I find it's best to assume that your narrative opponent is working in good faith and to build a good story with you; it makes the game more fun if you don't think they're out to get you. And if you find proof they are playing foul, that can be reported for the DMs to handle.

[Rei_Jin]

I'm fine giving leeway when warranted, but we're playing a roleplay server and I think we should expect our fellows to do the bare minimum here. I don't really buy the blind panic reaction though. This is a video game.

I'm a forty year old guy, and I've got a fair bit of life experience.

My first "hostile" experience on Arelith was coming through the Nexus Falls portal as an Underdark raiding party was preparing to return to the Underdark through said portal. All sorts of monstrous races, clearly evil, clearly not there for a tea party.

Me, as a mid level dwarf, not expecting any hostility, comes through said portal confronted with THAT.

They said "Get off the portal" so I did, mutely.

I tried to back out of the situation, because I was surprised, and when surprised, adrenaline kicks in. I tried to flee.

They called stop, I started running, and so they killed me.

Now, with the benefit of multiple years of experience on Arelith, would I have emoted? Absolutely. Would I have run? Possibly.

In that moment though, I was surprised with a hostile situation, and I responded instinctively. I panicked and ran.

You may not buy it, but it absolutely happens.

[HeyLadyOfDecay]

There is a number of people who have endured the negative side of PvP, things that caused the 48h rule, seen friends quit, factions destroyed, discord drama and so on.

Some of those instant exit PvP just because they had enough of it and just want their social bubble, PvE and craft, shop keep etc.

I'm in between, there are groups I avoid while I'm fine with pvp and losing versus others.

Kinda due that, I think that's their right. And for those who ask for some rp before fleeing, one written line in experience can make a difference between fled or dead.

[A Mystery Clock]

My two cents:

Cent n°1: What Saslae's player said is why Saslae is an excellent antagonist and a fairly well loved, famous character. I've also had a similar experience with Lefric's player lately, and Rhett Blackthorn. Cool people that seemed more out to rock the boat than "haha I don't like u die". They were all, also, very OOCly courteous and took a couple seconds to iron out some details with me.

You generally get what you give. Be a creative villain that makes characters, not players, angry, and do not grace players that respond badly to it with conflict. Players that do not engage in conflict and play peaceful characters should generally be allowed to just vibe unless they are ok with being the martyr. Players that play highly conflictual characters should, generally, expect what comes around to go around (you picked paladin/necromancer, you knew EXACTLY what you were getting into).

Cent n°2: Arelith has a fairly heavy lean on powerbuilding and mechanics. There has, historically, been a subset of the community that is very concerned with mechanical power. Both in good, and extremely bad faith.

I understand why some people get upset. If they were just playing a subpar class or class combination that's very fun to roleplay but a wet towel in pvp, and their character isn't especially conflictual, maybe they just want to play a nerdy elf arcanist and aren't especially into getting facerolled by a pvp character.

In a nutshell, be gracious, aim to do your best, and try to gauge willingness to enter conflict via RP. If some characters persistently and obviously don't want to fight, maybe shift your aim. If they are down to tango, or if they play a highly conflictual concept or class that HAS to roll with the punches, they don't get to have their cake and eat it too- so just report it, carry on, and don't think you've done anything wrong.

Edit, for Ork:
I have fairly high tolerance to fear and I have found my hands clammy and my entire body sweaty after some close calls in prolonged pvp, when I played a more pvp-y concept. I absolutely buy it that people can panic, especially if they aren't in the mentality of the aggressor. Very easy even for experienced roleplayers to slip and get a little bit -too- in character also.

Double edit:
Also, by the love of all that's holy, please stop warding while someone is typing if you've started conflict. It's cheesy as hell. If the person you've just threatened is busy typing that they are soiling themselves and a crowd of 3-4 red characters is just chugging potions menacingly, of bloody course they'll assume it's pvp time and run.

There's a staggering amount of SUPER trigger happy people that don't allow any time to react, barrage with quick emotes and IMMEDIATELY swing, to the point I'd justify drinking attunement and even more foolproof IG options to just... peace out/flee from pvp, in that scenario.

[Skibbles]

So... maybe a hot take, but here it is:

If you experience people frequently running from your roleplay, maybe the problem is you.

Examine what you're doing that makes people prefer to break character, and maybe the rules, to get away from what you're offering as fast as they possibly can.

If you're fun to play with - literally nobody runs from you. Ever. They may even run towards you, eager to be cut down, just so they can roleplay with you more. I can think of many players that I would die (literally) to have a storyline with if that is the direction things went. Are you one of those players? Why, or why not?

PVP was used to make some of the best and most memorable storylines I've ever had. Defeats, specifically.

However, and this is a big one, PVP is also very frequently used, usually as a crutch for a total lack of creativity (or worse), by people that just haven't been banned yet. Such players leave a lot of damage in their wake, sometimes numbering in the dozens or even hundreds of negative experiences, and that damage can sometimes never go away; the same way that once trust is broken it is near impossible to repair.

Players that have been on the receiving end of such players are sure to have lost trust in the PVP system as it stands, and I can hardly blame them in some of these cases.

On Competition Undertones:

Arelith is more finely and fastidiously balanced for PVP than most AAA+ multi-million dollar exclusively pvp-oriented games.

I think it is disingenuous to dismiss Arelith as not having competitive, and sometimes extremely competitive, undertones.

If you enter into high profile politics your roleplay is not merely dictated by roleplay, but on the power of you and your friends and their ability to protect that roleplay since Arelith's politics and Highlander's immortal catchphrase are very similar. The preservation of which relies almost exclusively on current metas, player skill, weight of numbers, and maybe most importantly - player eagerness to be the first to engage in PVP.

Almost none of those things are strictly roleplay, though weight of numbers does naturally come with being very fun to play with, but the majority of the time the loser of any conflict is, for all intents and purposes, deleted. How is this not competitive in some manner or another?

I have mostly mixed feelings on the nature of competition on Arelith, some good and bad, but I as I said earlier it seems odd to me to claim it isn't there at all. We can debate the metrics of it, I think, but surely we can all agree it is there at least.

[TurningLeaf]

Logging just to avoid PvP seems pretty bad. Hopefully it was just a coincidence when this happened, obviously things come up.

I did want to point out that simply walking/running away when one senses a situation is dangerous is a very normal and smart reaction in reality. Not sure why it's bad RP unless we're expecting a more Shakespearean vibe where folks always give a few good stanzas of exposition announcing their intention, before actually doing anything. The fact that this is expected of the PvP initiator but there are no apparent "need to announce you're running away" restrictions on the other person, I had interpreted as good evidence that PvP here is intended to be more on a consent basis, with situations where someone got NC PvP'd more the exception rather than the rule.

[LurkingShadow]

Logging just to avoid PvP seems pretty bad. Hopefully it was just a coincidence when this happened, obviously things come up.

I did want to point out that simply walking/running away when one senses a situation is dangerous is a very normal and smart reaction in reality. Not sure why it's bad RP unless we're expecting a more Shakespearean vibe where folks always give a few good stanzas of exposition announcing their intention, before actually doing anything. The fact that this is expected of the PvP initiator but there are no apparent "need to announce you're running away" restrictions on the other person, I had interpreted as good evidence that PvP here is intended to be more on a consent basis, with situations where someone got NC PvP'd more the exception rather than the rule.

Yeah, good luck emoting like a Shakespearean actor when people start to buff or alreay are buffed up and turn the hostile on. So...yeah running works.

[Ork]

Running away without roleplay satisfies the roleplay requirement for PvP. If you choose to flee and ignore an encounter that doesn't mean they can't act against you.

[Bazelgeuse]

My client crashes so often I worry that I look like I’m logging out to avoid conflict.

[ReverentBlade]

Its interesting that we wanted to make death "more meaningful/consequential" with the memory changes and now we're mad that people are running away from PvP and treating death as more meaningful/consequential.

[DM Poppy]

Its interesting that we wanted to make death "more meaningful/consequential" with the memory changes and now we're mad that people are running away from PvP and treating death as more meaningful/consequential.

These are not two overlapping circles.

The Death Memory - Was introduced specifically to remove what was a very negatively impacting component of follow-up RP (I would barely call it RP. For most examples were OOC desire "Get Even" or "Be Innocent"). That being; for immediate gratification and often without any manner of narration or immersion. People would respawn, with utter disregard to the idea of dying, simply to scream "I was just killed by X. I wish to report them/Hunt them." "I did nothing. Nothing at all. They killed me! I only insulted them, disrespected them and refused to acknowledge their threats" etc etc.

This was often seen by DMs and Admin as a response to PvP that did not improve the content, nor did it provide any content that POSATIVELY created RP.

For the point of running away. Their are two factors.

People running away from, or ignoring an interaction is not the same as people engaging with the hostility and running away following on from that. To be engaged upon with hostility, whether it is in response to your Characters actions or be it simply a matter of wrong wrong time. The correct approach to that is quite simple...

If you don't want to fight or die because your Character is scared. Display that in your emotes. Be afraid, beg for life, interact with your would be attacker and once you have established in your interactions that you are afraid and that you will run away do so. You will find that you will be given the "Out" you desire more frequently, when you actually present your case in the form of written interaction. You are playing on a Roleplay server, where you are expected to stay IC.

It is PERFECTLY reasonable that your Necromancer animating corpses in the Graveyard be approached with hostility and threat to your life. YOU put yourself in that position, it as a consiquence of your actions. To respond to that threat by simply not replying, or simply running away without word is not Roleplay. But it does fulfil the requirements to PvP.

[Eira]

It's worth noting that running away from an active threat and silently turning to walk away from someone trying to roleplay antagonizing you are two different things.

The latter seems like the actual issue we're talking about here.

[-XXX-]

Yeah, this goes both ways : I've seen weaponmaster players who'd ignore everything up until the point they got right into somebody's face.

While it does not take that much time to type "Back off!", toons move even faster at which point a "No *IKD *" response can easily happen.

[Kreindis]

My two cents on various things in this topic are this:

The statement that people aren't their characters is a fallacy that is used to justify toxic behavior. Often times when this is said, it is said with the preamble of "Because the other person ignored my RP" which implies that you are connected enough to your character's motivations to care enough to how someone else reacted to your hook. Hence, you are writing something with your character's interest in mind. And your enjoyment is diminished because your character did not get their way. This is the complete opposite of character/player disconnect. I could go into this much further but that's not the point of this thread.

Consent is not a rule on this server but I think it should be. You don't make a good story by dragging in a random person off the street and give a pen. You instead find collaborative writers. Best way to do that is through Tells. If you antagonize random people, this is basically like ganking people in World of Warcraft.

And finally, that goes into my last point. Arelith HAS changed from what it used to be in the past, for the better in my opinion. Everything in Arelith is a lot more action oriented than it used to be. There are instant attacks. I doubt there are many people here that can type out a good emote at the speed of instant. I can't. That said, because of the pace of the server and the commitment to PvP balance, Morgy has it right. PvP is the literal death of RP.

If you want IC proof, just watch a player-hosted PvP tournament. It is a clear disadvantage to RP in PvP. And you will see basically none of it, and entirely mechanical skill.

I think there's basically two ways to play Arelith which is either a life sim or as a survival game, both with RPG elements. Until there is there is a statement from up on high that one of these play styles is more valid than the other, these two will always co-exist and will always conflict.

[Distant Relation]

I think there's basically two ways to play Arelith which is either a life sim or as a survival game, both with RPG elements. Until there is there is a statement from up on high that one of these play styles is more valid than the other, these two will always co-exist and will always conflict.

This is perhaps one of the most enlightening sentences ever written in these forums.

Looking back, it really is clear to me now how a lot of the friction comes from some people wanting Arelith to be a Rust-like survival mmo while others want it to be a life sim to tell stories.

I'm in the latter camp. I appreciate pvp when it is infrequent and the culmination of a conflict, but the random ganking that I and others experience with startling frequency is more at home in WoW's War Mode or Albion Online's Black Zones.

I find absolutely absurd that pvp'ers are claiming to be entitled to roleplay from their prey, and that the very natural reaction of running away from something that looks like it might be dangerous is 'bad roleplay'. This is what happens in real life. How many of you have taken a different road, crossed the street or ducked into a shop for a bit when you see some suspicious folks loitering in your path?

What is more realistic? To seek some form of safety by the most expedient means possible, or to step towards the danger and go 'PAY ATTENTION, EVILDOERS, FOR I WILL BE RUNNING AWAY FROM YOU IN 5... 4.... 3...."

Yes, yes, "running away from pvp is consent to pvp". So is approaching the pvp. So is typing something. So is casting a spell. So is using an item. EVERYTHING is consent to pvp. Running away is the one thing that is both consent to pvp and results in a decent chance of survival for those who are caught unprepared.

The advantage is entirely on the side of the pvp players, who have builds designed by the discord hivemind, tested in the pgcc, rehearsed through duels, reinforced through months and years of ooc knowledge and practice. Is there really any need to not just kneecap any chance of escape or survival their prey might have, but to also claim the pvp predators are entitled to a rousing performance from their prey to keep them entertained?

You ask for roleplayers to treat death seriously, and not approach the world as if they could easily respawn and undo all impact of their death. The best way to treat death seriously is to value your life to the point where you don't want to lose it. To charge headlong into danger is the very definition of not taking death seriously.

[Eira]

Again, the issue isn't that people are running away from a threat. The issue is that people will just walk away from a conversation as soon as it turns into something they don't like.

Not running, like you would when scared. Walking. What part of that communicates any sort of care that there is a potentially dangerous antagonist, effort to roleplay, or respect for danger/death?

If someone is walking away, it's not like pvp has started yet. They just check out of the interaction without a word because they, the player, just don't want to participate. Not the character trying to preserve their life. And that's the problem the OP has stated.

At the very least, they could go "I'm done listening to this" before they turn and walk away, but just turning around and strolling off? I see a problem with that and I'm more likely to play the character being antagonized than doing the antagonizing.

[Morgy]

I'm fine giving leeway when warranted, but we're playing a roleplay server and I think we should expect our fellows to do the bare minimum here. I don't really buy the blind panic reaction though. This is a video game.

It totally is a thing. I remember when I was new to Arelith, I was very immersed the gaming world and it totally made me freeze and react more instinctively than I would nowadays.

Most folk initiating conflict/pvp are thinking over going ahead with hostilities before they make it obvious, which means they have time to think out their responses quite often. The target may not have this foresight/experience/evidence to work with, so it can catch them unawares OOC and make them struggle to respond.

People cry over sad stories. People rage quit over losing. People laugh over funny scenes... This is a video game.

[DM Poppy]

If you want IC proof, just watch a player-hosted PvP tournament. It is a clear disadvantage to RP in PvP. And you will see basically none of it, and entirely mechanical skill.

You have clearly never been present to observe the Street Fights and Brawls of Andunor in the Sharps District.

[WanderingPoet]

I'm fine giving leeway when warranted, but we're playing a roleplay server and I think we should expect our fellows to do the bare minimum here. I don't really buy the blind panic reaction though. This is a video game.

Running away without roleplay satisfies the roleplay requirement for PvP. If you choose to flee and ignore an encounter that doesn't mean they can't act against you.

It's pretty sad that this is your outlook Ork. Not everyone that plays NWN is a masterful DotA2 player ready with lightning reflexes; with an expert understanding of all rules on how to masterfully play their character to survive. People will blind panic, people do blind panic. Even those experienced will blind panic if thrown into a big surprise situation. It's a major reason why there are so many RP-lite hostile encounters; "Oh no, a raid, attack!" and people forget to RP first because of panic.

People RP their characters and having a survival instinct, and arguably a more immersive reaction, is to bolt when you spot something that is going to kill you. That /is/ a bare minimum response, and IC/OOCly they probably are in a blind panic. Expecting people to write you dialog because you've chosen to play someone that wants to beat up random passerbys is frankly pretty entitled. Assuming that they are trying to ignore an encounter is very pessimistic. If my character sees a dragon land in the middle of the road (one of the random NPC spawns), they run away, if they see a fully warded warband of monsters, they run away - because I care about respecting death, and life; and my character isn't suicidal.

Yeah, that is all the roleplay that is required to PvP them, but what's the story you are telling here? This isn't a cooperative narrative that's being told "Oh they ran away, I best pursue and murder them into the ground." - victory for you, you get to win. But the otherside is left just wondering why they logged on today, instead. Them running away and making it to safety and telling their friends has far more narrative outcome than your own proposed suggestion of them sticking around to get beatup, or you chasing them down because they satisfied the rules of engagement and you checked the boxes.

If your entire story revolves around PVPing random strangers and chasing them down if they don't emote their fear of you before fleeing, you probably should figure out a better story to tell.

I think there's basically two ways to play Arelith which is either a life sim or as a survival game, both with RPG elements. Until there is there is a statement from up on high that one of these play styles is more valid than the other, these two will always co-exist and will always conflict.

I disagree, there are far more than two ways. Sure there are some people playing life sim, some playing survival, as you said; there are also some playing it as an ARPG like diablo focused on PVE content while making interesting characters, there are some who play it like a battle royale, some playing a Coming of Age adventure, some playing spreadsheet simulator, some playing creative-writing-101, some looking for as much PVP as they can get into, there are others (like myself) who are just here to cooperatively tell stories with as many people as possible too.

Not getting into PVP doesn't automatically make you a life sim player, and getting into PVP doesn't make you a PVP hound. It's a spectrum of different people with different abilities and desires from their Arelithian experience.

[DM Poppy]

Players do panic. I assure you that. New and Old, their is an immediate alarm to hostility. The damage to your Character is undesired and so you can react to things in haste and only come to understand afterwards that you did so.

[Zavandar]

i think there's a lot of reductionist, insincere, and unhelpful takes being thrown around in here

actually typing a response to someone doesn't make you a "masterful DotA2 player ready with lightning reflexes; with an expert understanding of all rules on how to masterfully play their character to survive."

something as simple as "oh no these are drow, let's get out of here!" is miles ahead of silently running and lensing. it treats death respectfully isn't totally dismissive of antagonists. sometimes you running away is all they want!

yeah i can understand adrenaline kicking in when a group of fully warded hostiles just drops on you (because that has happened to me many times), but this is also a roleplaying game and if you go into full-on fight or flight mode from this kind of situation maybe you need to take a step back.

[Xerah]

We're also not playing a real-life simulator but a game where people are level 30 with enormous amounts of power. Yes, running away in real life makes sense, but it makes less sense to do so in a fantasy setting where you RP some powerful creature. It really doesn't seem to have a place in this discussion.