Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

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D4wN
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by D4wN » Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:02 am

I haven't chimed in at all. So I'm going to now. This is entirely my opinion and I don't expect nor need anyone to agree with me.

I love playing antagonists. I've played an antagonist to the Surface and now I play one to the UD. Prominent antagonists and protagonists create impactful stories of conflict if done well. But part of playing on this server is the knowledge and acceptance that there are other players that impact this world and have their own stories they want to tell.

Two things are entirely disrespected imo on this server: the seriousness of (impending) death and fear.

So let's talk about OP's initial concern. You are a badass scary Kobold with a reputation you've worked for gods know how long. Maybe several RL years. You run into a level 15 and they go: "YOU DON'T SCARE ME! LEAVE ME ALONE!" and they walk off. Or maybe they don't say anything at all and simply don't want to acknowledge you.

First of all, there's nothing more demoralizing for someone who has spent hours and hours of their time building a reputation to be a villain or a hero to have someone just turn around and walk away from you, likely uttering some snarky comment in the process. This is also someone who's incapable of RPing fear appropriately or the impending potential death that may come.

Secondly, you are now acting as if you're not playing in a persistent RPG game. You play on this server, you know there's PVP. You know that there's other players who might come and ruin your day. Maybe not because they're going specifically after you, but maybe you just found yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time. By logging in you agree to play with other players in a multiplayer online game world. And although you all have an obligation to make sure that everyone has fun and collaborates and no one feels particularly uncomfortable with a scenario, you on the other side must also acknowledge it is entirely possible you might be robbed on the Trader's Route, someone tries to enslave you or do something else bad to your character.

Be brave, take the loss and rather than seeing it as a "I don't want to deal with this", see it as a "Hey, this could create story development." That's what we're all here for. Losing isn't bad, losing creates character development. Embrace it.

Last edited by D4wN on Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ork
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Ork » Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:20 am

Well said and cuts to the heart of the issue better than anything I've posted.


Perplexia
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Perplexia » Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:04 am

losing is !!fun!!

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Llopast
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Llopast » Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:19 am

Definately Not A Mimic wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:30 pm

... we have even all seen the people who will get subdued and lay on the ground a bloody pulp and still talk back and run at the mouth. Giving them a button that says they can't be touched will only make such things worse.

As a person who did a "dead talk" thing in the past, here are some advices to those who also have rage (or fear) problems:

  1. Make a meaningful real note somewhere on your table: "It is just a video game", "They are just playing their characters", - whatever works for you best to help you calm yourself down. I personally use a sapper shovel with a note on it;
  2. Put your hands away from the keyboard, close your eyes, make at least several deep breaths. If you are attacked during your pause, let it be: it is definitely not under your control If the other party does not want to give you time to react properly;
  3. If you feel that you still cannot deal with your emotions properly, just die IC or use "-giveup" console command if you were subdued. It is far not the best solution, but it is most likely way better than what you are going to say or do next. Next time you will try to do better.
Last edited by Llopast on Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Distant Relation
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Distant Relation » Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:00 am

I think everyone's had a chance to take turns at bashing toggle-on-at-will pvp immunity by now. I don't think anyone seriously wants or needs that in Arelith, and even the serious proponents of some form of consent mechanism don't want that. Yes, I do agree with the lot of you that a mechanically enforced freely toggleable pvp consent mechanism would do more harm than good. I think most do?

On the subject of killbash pvp: I'm starting to think there might be a disconnect here. Perhaps a timezone disconnect. Perhaps a server region disconnect (Arelith is big, after all). Perhaps a combination thereof. Certainly my experience with Arelith's pvp is not one of deeply interesting storylines, recurring villains and something to talk about afterwards, it is encounters that are fast, brutal, and best left forgotten. I hope that one day I will experience the best that Arelith's pvp has to offer, because it sounds a heck of a lot more fun than what I normally witness.

On the subject of 'walking away' mid confrontation: I appreciate D4wn's breakdown of the situation, as it helps me visualize it a bit. Again, since I'm not typically involved in scenes like this (as either party, the aggressor or the walk-away-er), I will refrain from making judgments on how frequent or infrequent it might be. I can understand how frustrating it might be if it keeps happening, but I think skibbles hit the nail on the head. If it keeps happening, over multiple interactions, constantly, there might be some introspection in order.

The other shade of this problem is, be careful not to get 'high on your own supply'. To shamelessly borrow D4wn again (likely one of the most legendary players in Arelith at present), I vividly recall the day the news of Theodor Helbrecht's death was posted far and wide across notice boards all over Arelith. I first read about it on the notice board outside the Indoor Market in Guldorand. As my character read the notice aloud, the person next to me interjected with 'Who? Never heard of him'. Yes, even one of Arelith's most storied and beloved characters wasn't known to literally everyone. Arelith is -big-. It has a lot of players and even more characters. No matter how much of an awesome antagonist your character is, chances are still reasonably high you will meet people (players or characters) that have never heard of you. Especially at times where you or them are playing at an unusual time of day for their regular habits.

Finally, if this does happen.. the only recommendation I have is to take it in stride and act accordingly to your character's personality. Kill them, if you have to. Leave them bloodied with a message of 'now you know who I am' to remember you by. Laugh it off with your mates. Turn slightly to look at the camera with a deadpan look like a scene out of The Office. Whatever happened is likely not personal, and unless you have absolute and undeniable evidence that it is, it's best not to let your thoughts wander down that dark road, for therein lies only madness.

And for myself, I ask you, please don't confuse distaste for bad pvp with a distaste for pvp in general. While I certainly have complaints about how pvp works in Arelith, how absurdly litigious it is (from a DM report perspective), and how prevalent bad pvp is (again, to my admittedly limited experience), that does not mean I think pvp by itself is bad. I just find it bad when it's the first wrench people reach for on what should be a vast toolbox of RP angles and avenues to work with. I see pvp death as a cessation of RP, at least as far as telling a story between the two characters involved in it. I think one of the most positive changes in recent times (and something that once was viciously rejected in these very forums) is subdual by default. What a magnificent step in the right direction.

Let's keep taking steps in the right direction, and keep working with each other as players, even if our characters are at odds with each other.


Guerra
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Guerra » Thu Feb 09, 2023 1:47 am

Most of this seems like “you get what you give.”

If I see you rest or buff then come hassle me with minimum dialog and if it seems like you’ve already decided how this is going no matter what I do… then expect the minimum back. It’s not difficult to tell when this is the case.

If it looks like you’re trying to do something interesting or at the very least if it looks like what I say will be heard and you’re into a back and forth then I’ll give it to you.

Of course there’s a broad spectrum of players and styles here but I feel like this is probably how things will even out in the grand scale. If you’re pushy and aggressive but don’t offer much in return you aren’t entitled to much in the way of victim RP. If you offer fascinating conflict RP and are willing to share the floor you’ll find someone to play along. It may not be on the first try but it will happen.

Oh and if you’ll take an RP loss here and there by letting someone mechanically weaker still get the better of you through cleverness or creativity then you’re an awesome player who needs to be celebrated. We need more of these.


Wolfgangvondi
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Wolfgangvondi » Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:25 pm

Hello,

Well, I sure have not been my best in several situations. It happens.
And this is just my point of view ofc... But I have meet several... more PVP drive players, a few have even told me so in ooc. And I should say, must of them the interactions that I had in game whit my toons ( even wen I was in the receiving end, were great).
I can comprehend that there's several approaches to the game. (and some times we just aren't at our best for whatever reason) but for what I have seen and "learn" for said more oriented pvp player's:

  • Would you char on the motive A and B attack Char X even if you where lvl 10 and the adversary was lvl 30? Be honest whit yourself and If the answer is no, them its not your char that wants to kill the other guy, its you.
  • As a general rule, if you are the instigator, try to make it engaging and especially always leave clear way out. (or even better more than one way)
    (A example: a log time back... a well know and feared banite told my char if my char leave the village gates he would kill my char. I decided IC that I would take on his threat, perfectly knowing ooc that my char would be defeated easly, but by rp reasons for who my char was, for all the story behind the factions we were in and so on, it was rp wise the option that made more sense. He defeated my char hands down. (what he did next ties in whit the next point.)
  • PVP is a way to continue the RP or to end it? The goal should always be to open ways to rp more and not to end it.
    (....continuing my story ( The banite defeated my char, tied up my char to a tree and giving me the indication ooc that i had the chance to flee at that time. I opted to not flee. so I was taken as to the factions jail. In the jail he comment on how well I was able to put a defense in the fight (lol) even against him one of the best banites, so that elevated my char as just not a peddle in some one shoe but a worth "co-actor". we spoke some time, and them because of that my faction put up a rescue attempt and end up getting other faction to help. So More RP and whit more ppl.)
  • You can be "bad Snuggybear" and evil, and feared whit out actual PVP. PVP should not be a goal in it self?
    (Some weeks back my char -almost mid lvl- reacted to like a lvl 3 char that was RP like a evil guy, he was doing it so well, that I RP it like my char was fearful, feeling unsure of what to do and basically the lvl 3 char "owned" my char whit out even lifting his weapon/spells whatever. )
  • Try to put yourself in the mind set that If you lose could also be a nice/fun outcome, try to lose on propose, if you realy don't like, mybe reconsider your pvp approach in the game (since this is RP server).
    (My best fight ever, was my totally unprepared char Vs 2 declared "Pvp oriented players", by rp reasons I cold only use fire spells and I was mid lvl. They were lvl 30. We battled it out half mechanically (one of them was able to make hold person) half emoting. My char was able to burn down ther house, and flee. Because ooc they wanted/let me ofc. I loved the interaction and they told me the same ooc.)

  • Running, fleeing from a evil looking guy/gal that clear has not good intentions, can be very IC. I have done it several times. Scream, and fled.
    One of the times A cordor gladiator heard my char scream and pleas for help and come to the rescue. Other time in the UD... no one can hear you scream... so my char did his best to run away, but got lost, end up in a dead end... got caught sub dued, was emoted tortured all over.
    Also I had folks fleeing from my drow. I dont take it was they are "denying my RP". I Take it as they as a surface unready and cough by surprise seeing a drow do one of the more natural options? Flee. Seens very realistic and In setting to me.

The point for me is.. like someone told a long time ago, there's "bad meta" and "good meta". Just PVP a char because you, the player, wants and you know you have a very good chance to win And the RP done is just to make the "PVP possible" is Bad Meta. In the other hand... If your very evil blackguard/necro/whatever, or righteous Pala leaving some escape way outs for the other player, is good meta. Since we are here to have some rp fun, and not to just spoil some other player fun. Try your best to create Rp and not kill counts. ( bit corny I know : P )


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:24 pm

There are more good characters than bad.

And typically, more newer characters play good than bad.

While being an antagonist is difficult, all they can do is make the offer (as per this thread). The onus of fear, death, rivalry, etc., actually sits on the good character.

This can be very hard to navigate. Good characters get Badass Points for not showing fear, for pwning evil characters, etc. Many good characters are not viewed positively by other good characters when they exhibit negative traits - fear, mercy, etc.

There are not many good good characters. This creates a cycle of imitation where good characters only see other peers exhibiting really bad traits (the amount of times I've seen roleplay devolve into dehumanizing the experience of an antagonist I can count on many many fingers).

PVP-hungry antagonists are such a blip of a problem. Like whatever Banite bro, pvp me again. Let's create a wonderful epic rivalry as you corpsebash me. You can move on from this.

What's more deeply problematic, on a systemic level, is when an antagonist makes a meaningful offer and is treated to PVP-hungry corpsebashing.

The obligation of the antagonist is to make a good offer, and it's the obligation of the good character to meaningfully engage.

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Yvesza
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Yvesza » Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:51 pm

I've had mixed reactions but generally, a significant portion of people will lens on the spot to avoid antagonistic interactions (Including people who 100% were asking for trouble). I generally trend towards the idea of soft antagonism (Threatening people / Subdual / Robbing them for menial things) and while it totally is acceptable within the rules, it sort of creates a weird situation for would be antagonists when people hit a lens the moment they feel remotely threatened.

Do you use -teleport_ward every time you flag someone down, even if your intention is just menial spooky threatening? What if I want to steal someones rations? My goal is generally just to make the world feel unsafe and the memory rules 100% incentivize me to let victims run off alive since I want them to be able to complain / spread news since it can create further roleplay. It just feels really difficult to do that when a pretty common reaction to danger is to immediately lens, there's not really much opportunity to build the situation or create roleplay.

I can say though that I've personally witnessed people effectively just throwing weight around as an opposite to that, including a pair of late epics chasing someone down to kill their summoned rat, then killing them after minimal roleplaying -at- them, rather than with them. So it's understandable that some people might be hesitant given previous bad experiences.


Vangrant1
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Vangrant1 » Mon Apr 10, 2023 6:56 pm

I am surprised that an evil character is having trouble when people avoid him, honestly I understand why people avoid you as evil guy.

In Arelith, this being my opinion, you can only be really good (in terms of RP ), evil character openly, if you actually are good at PVP or you have people backing you up in terms of RP, lets be honest, i seen evil guys on the open, most time they are bullied or considered annoying unless they have an crew that supports their RP, and i dont have problem going screaming all the road to Cordor there is an necromancer on the road, the issue is not rewarding, you dont get rewarded for this sorta of RP victim or witness either, as someone people said before, others dont like PVP either due to many reasons, my advice is aproach the players by tell, if they are confortamble to RP with you or willing to be engaged in small PVP, sometimes isnt the RP you are trying to do, is people dont know what character they gonna interact or RP they gonna be involved, and some people dont time to waste an hour RPing as an victim, only to be ignored next days, i know what you are talking, but open evil guys? In Arelith? Or either you are interesting to RP with or people are interested in your RP.

I speak by the way on an Surface level RP, not an underdark player.

The only time i got the RP points from another player was when i ran and screamed from an Balor on an road of Cordor, and the player who was the summoner i think, found it hilarious, honestly? That was 4 to 5 years ago if not mistaken, if it was today, i wouldnt have done it most likely, i would examine, if i could survive, if not bail.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by IAmSwampFoot » Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:33 am

I play a halfling Ranger, currently.

While I have no disillusions that my character can win in PvP against certain characters, I'm not afraid to lose while playing my character, But there are limits.

Are we alone and unwitnessed? Subdual mode is a means to beat me but continue the RP later, even the same day. Killing me outright invites the "no memory" effect that most people RP after a PVE death. As well the effects of that death will probably cause me to log out and play another day.

Is it group battle or solo with someone that might raise me? If it's a group battle, strive to leave a survivor. Someone that can facilitate the raising the rest of the group. Again, this goes toward RPing the defeat, but also avoiding the "death tax" of respawning. Doing so preserves your RP. Or else everyone on the losing team might choose to play the "no memory" effect, which dilutes the victory.

Not every PvP needs to end in death. Sometimes a sound beating where the antagonist walks away unscathed can be a powerful message.


Fume
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Fume » Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:35 am

Perplexia wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:52 am

i honestly find it incredibly disappointing that a total aversion towards PvP is so prevalent on this server, to the point of some players wishing to "opt out" of it entirely

do people really just hate losing that badly, or am i missing something?

For me as a fairly new player, i hate PVP, i hate dying so when i play the content, im carefull and do all the tactics

Not meant to be bagging anyone, but I feel the only people that happily do.pvp are those that are confident, they know the servers in and outs well and have or can make a super build with 70ac and etc.
Ive never seen a whimpy first lvl try to.pvp me by comparison.
And then it becomes an arms race type which some people are capable of 500 smites or whatever or some other obscure rule tweak that i know nothing about and can destroy me with it lol. Thats pretty much why i avoid it when i can.
I dont want to have to do a superbuild and srat crunch, dipping here and there for max uber. Though yes i see how that is fun also.. Thebuilds i make are fun to play but would and have in past gotten owmed because of above reasons.
Im not really interested in the number crunching side of which to me, is necesary if you dont want to get your Snuggybear handed to you.
Equally, on occasion i can see how pvp can be fun and such and eventually ill do pvp simply because my character will not back down but ive already resigned myself ti the fact i will be killed lol.
These are just my thoughts and perhaps misconceptions.


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Nurel
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Nurel » Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:58 pm

IDK, I don't wish to bore everyone with a huge wall of text.

This is a great topic. I have to add 2 things:

Fume wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:35 am

ill do pvp simply because my character will not back down but ive already resigned myself ti the fact i will be killed lol.

A) The only way to learn pvp is to rack up some losses. When I started 3.5 years ago my PCs lasted mere seconds in PVP. Now I've brought this up to minutes, sometimes even living through the entire fight.

B) IC narratives rarely (if ever) hedge on skirmish PVP outcomes. Do not feel as if your character is ruined because you lost in PVP. RP makes a character, PVP is entirely mechanical, and merely a device to generate more RP. It is a game within the game, which requires time and effort to even be decent at. Fellow players never expect of you to be a good PVPer nor will ever hold it against you if you lose, so accept your fate and lose. Arelith does not punish you for it. You keep your items, your XP and your progress. Just try a little harder to stay alive each time, and you will begin to improve..


Perplexia
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Perplexia » Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:20 pm

Fume wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:35 am

For me as a fairly new player, i hate PVP, i hate dying so when i play the content, im carefull and do all the tactics

Not meant to be bagging anyone, but I feel the only people that happily do.pvp are those that are confident, they know the servers in and outs well and have or can make a super build with 70ac and etc.
Ive never seen a whimpy first lvl try to.pvp me by comparison.

when i had initially wrote that (in retrospect, needlessly snarky) comment, i did so with some fairly optimistic preconceptions, namely the assumption that -subdual was the norm, and that the antagonists in question weren't going out of their way just to killbash poor lowbies just trying to 'do a writ' or what have you

with that being said: do i often play relatively well-optimised builds made with PvP in mind?

well, yeah.

like you said, you have to if you want any chance of survival; it's the nature of any form of PvP in games, and it's unfortunate that this results in such a large power disparity between the players who are 'in the know', and the many players who are not

Nurel is right though, in most cases PvP is a tool, a means to an end. in most cases your character getting their snuggybear beaten is probably going to result in some kind of RP, even if it doesn't necessarily include you in that moment

imagine you're at the end of a long, high-level dungeon, and the final boss says "sorry i do not consent to PvE" and denies you any real victory
oh wait, you don't have to imagine, the dragon of skal fell literally does this exact thing
you miss out on what could have been some great character development, a story for your character to tell their friends, or to reminisce together, all because the boss didn't really feel like it

i hate dying as well, because chances are i'm missing out on whatever cool story the survivors – antagonists or otherwise – are making of it

Atlus wrote: As they say on the internet, this is a very based post.

Khorvale
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Khorvale » Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:49 am

Perplexia wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:20 pm
Fume wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:35 am

For me as a fairly new player, i hate PVP, i hate dying so when i play the content, im carefull and do all the tactics

Not meant to be bagging anyone, but I feel the only people that happily do.pvp are those that are confident, they know the servers in and outs well and have or can make a super build with 70ac and etc.
Ive never seen a whimpy first lvl try to.pvp me by comparison.

when i had initially wrote that (in retrospect, needlessly snarky) comment, i did so with some fairly optimistic preconceptions, namely the assumption that -subdual was the norm, and that the antagonists in question weren't going out of their way just to killbash poor lowbies just trying to 'do a writ' or what have you

with that being said: do i often play relatively well-optimised builds made with PvP in mind?

well, yeah.

like you said, you have to if you want any chance of survival; it's the nature of any form of PvP in games, and it's unfortunate that this results in such a large power disparity between the players who are 'in the know', and the many players who are not

Nurel is right though, in most cases PvP is a tool, a means to an end. in most cases your character getting their snuggybear beaten is probably going to result in some kind of RP, even if it doesn't necessarily include you in that moment

imagine you're at the end of a long, high-level dungeon, and the final boss says "sorry i do not consent to PvE" and denies you any real victory
oh wait, you don't have to imagine, the dragon of skal fell literally does this exact thing
you miss out on what could have been some great character development, a story for your character to tell their friends, or to reminisce together, all because the boss didn't really feel like it

i hate dying as well, because chances are i'm missing out on whatever cool story the survivors – antagonists or otherwise – are making of it

Honestly I think considering NWN a PvP game is a misunderstanding. Or well, that depends on the PW I suppose, but I'm pretty sure Arelith isn't a PvP-server, rather it's an RP-server that has PvP functionality because PvP can also be a vehicle for RP. I think a lot of people tend to forget that.

As for "losing", from a collaborative RP standpoint, being defeated in PvP isn't really losing, it's just a narrative hook like any other. Or as Dwarf Fortress taught me many years ago: Losing is fun!

Of course if you base your conception of your character on being a PvP winner, I'm sure losing is going to sting but again, I don't really think that's the best way to approach it. YMMV though. Personally I primary a brutal and arrogant Orog who would, theoretically, be a badass slayer of anything he doesn't like but I also knew going in that it's going to be 30 levels of being pulverized in PvP because a lot of the server population is just that sweaty, and my build is meant for PvE, and that's fine. I work around in practice not being the deadly and ruthless lord of war that his concept is because anything else would be an exercise in frustration and just lead to bad feelings because my pixels and numbers got beat up by someone else's pixels and numbers, again.

Of course, it's always going to suck when some uber-pvp designed killmachine murders you and killbashes your corpse with little to no RP but honestly I just feel a bit bad for the people who need to go to that kind of pseudo-toxic lengths to justify their characters, or themselves or their life-choices or whatever, and in that case the "do not remember" rule is a blessing because that means I don't have to engage with their bullcrap any more than I want to.


Fume
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Fume » Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:38 am

At the end of the day, I dont think bagging out anyone for their own playstyle which I might add is within the rules set out, achieves any real goal.
Especially when you consider how many people actually play Arelith, 100+ ?
Anyone conscientous enough to check the forums and respond their views should be treated with respect.
Probably realistically, not much is going to change server wise as id guess maybe half? Actually check the forums.
I doubt the worst of the worst wouldnt even be bothering to read this.
I think we are all here to enjoy ourselves, perhaps a bit more warmth and understanding of opposing views would enhance everyones experience.


Khorvale
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Khorvale » Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:45 am

Fume wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:38 am

At the end of the day, I dont think bagging out anyone for their own playstyle which I might add is within the rules set out, achieves any real goal.
Especially when you consider how many people actually play Arelith, 100+ ?
Anyone conscientous enough to check the forums and respond their views should be treated with respect.
Probably realistically, not much is going to change server wise as id guess maybe half? Actually check the forums.
I doubt the worst of the worst wouldnt even be bothering to read this.
I think we are all here to enjoy ourselves, perhaps a bit more warmth and understanding of opposing views would enhance everyones experience.

Not entirely sure who you're addressing here, if anyone. If it's me I don't think I was bagging anyone, merely trying to convey that taking PvP too seriously isn't a great approach to things and thinking of Arelith as a PvP-server is probably going to cause some ludo-narrative dissonance


Xerah
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Xerah » Tue Apr 25, 2023 3:42 pm

He's addressing you. You can't seem to make a post without attacking people.

Even in that reply above, you have to talk down at people. There are ways to give your opinion without targeting a group of people. If you cannot post without attacking people, then stop posting.

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by LurkingShadow » Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:38 am

What even is an antagonist on Arelith? I been called one on my character(s?) and I would not even say that I play one. Strong opinions should not make a character an antagonist.

Last edited by LurkingShadow on Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Amateur Hour » Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:04 am

LurkingShadow wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:38 am

What even is an antagonist on Arelith? I been called one on my character(s?) an I would not even say that I play one. Strong opinions should not make a character an antagonist.

An antagonist, by definition, is someone who antagonizes, i.e. provokes hostility. You do not have to be Supreme Pure Evil to be an antagonist. You don't even need to be trying to be an antagonist to be an antagonist. You just have to do things that make you someone's enemy. Having strong opinions that you refuse to alter for any reason, particularly controversial ones, is actually a really effective way to become an antagonist.

Now, who is the protagonist and who is the antagonist of a conflict is going to be a matter of perspective; there's a whole literary genre created by rewriting stories from the point of the original's antagonist. But on a persistent world, an "antagonist" is either going to be defined in the context of a conflict (in which case you're establishing the protagonist based on point-of-view), or when generally-defined, someone who opposes the people and groups currently in power.

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Edens_Fall » Wed Apr 26, 2023 2:12 am

Being an antagonist is not limited by one's alignment. There are plenty of great antagonists (past and present) who can be either from the Underdark or the Cordor. It's the actions of the player and how they are seen that defines the role more then what's selected at character creation.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by LurkingShadow » Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:26 am

Amateur Hour wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:04 am
LurkingShadow wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:38 am

What even is an antagonist on Arelith? I been called one on my character(s?) an I would not even say that I play one. Strong opinions should not make a character an antagonist.

An antagonist, by definition, is someone who antagonizes, i.e. provokes hostility. You do not have to be Supreme Pure Evil to be an antagonist. You don't even need to be trying to be an antagonist to be an antagonist. You just have to do things that make you someone's enemy. Having strong opinions that you refuse to alter for any reason, particularly controversial ones, is actually a really effective way to become an antagonist.

Now, who is the protagonist and who is the antagonist of a conflict is going to be a matter of perspective; there's a whole literary genre created by rewriting stories from the point of the original's antagonist. But on a persistent world, an "antagonist" is either going to be defined in the context of a conflict (in which case you're establishing the protagonist based on point-of-view), or when generally-defined, someone who opposes the people and groups currently in power.

And would you call my antagonists, villians? Cause to me, antagonists in fiction are villians. Because you can also have an antagonizing individual in your own "party". So not all of them would be villians but even allies.

EDIT: And Im still not fully on the ship here. Having an opinion about leadership or the way the system works in a settlement or upon the island should not make someone an enemy. If it is so, the "democratic" systems all over Arelith is just for show and a mechanic.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Amateur Hour » Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:20 pm

LurkingShadow wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:26 am
Amateur Hour wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:04 am
LurkingShadow wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:38 am

What even is an antagonist on Arelith? I been called one on my character(s?) an I would not even say that I play one. Strong opinions should not make a character an antagonist.

An antagonist, by definition, is someone who antagonizes, i.e. provokes hostility. You do not have to be Supreme Pure Evil to be an antagonist. You don't even need to be trying to be an antagonist to be an antagonist. You just have to do things that make you someone's enemy. Having strong opinions that you refuse to alter for any reason, particularly controversial ones, is actually a really effective way to become an antagonist.

Now, who is the protagonist and who is the antagonist of a conflict is going to be a matter of perspective; there's a whole literary genre created by rewriting stories from the point of the original's antagonist. But on a persistent world, an "antagonist" is either going to be defined in the context of a conflict (in which case you're establishing the protagonist based on point-of-view), or when generally-defined, someone who opposes the people and groups currently in power.

And would you call my antagonists, villians? Cause to me, antagonists in fiction are villians. Because you can also have an antagonizing individual in your own "party". So not all of them would be villians but even allies.

EDIT: And Im still not fully on the ship here. Having an opinion about leadership or the way the system works in a settlement or upon the island should not make someone an enemy. If it is so, the "democratic" systems all over Arelith is just for show and a mechanic.

Antagonists are not the same thing as villains. Antagonists are often villains, but not always villains. The Sheriff of Nottingham in the Robin Hood stories (not the Disney film, where they made him a villain) is an antagonist because he is the lawful side that opposes the chaotic Robin Hood, but he is not a villain. Lady Catherine de Bourgh is an antagonist in Pride and Prejudice without being a villain because she takes a strong position that happens to be counter to the protagonists' desires. The white whale in Moby Dick is an antagonist without being a villain essentially because Captain Ahab decided it would be.

Last edited by Amateur Hour on Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by magistrasa » Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:22 pm

I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to experience diversity in the media you expose yourself to. Like, for real, reading books doesn't have to just be something you do in high school and then never again for as long as you live. Highly, highly recommend it.

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by LurkingShadow » Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:42 pm

Amateur Hour wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:20 pm
LurkingShadow wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:26 am
Amateur Hour wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:04 am

An antagonist, by definition, is someone who antagonizes, i.e. provokes hostility. You do not have to be Supreme Pure Evil to be an antagonist. You don't even need to be trying to be an antagonist to be an antagonist. You just have to do things that make you someone's enemy. Having strong opinions that you refuse to alter for any reason, particularly controversial ones, is actually a really effective way to become an antagonist.

Now, who is the protagonist and who is the antagonist of a conflict is going to be a matter of perspective; there's a whole literary genre created by rewriting stories from the point of the original's antagonist. But on a persistent world, an "antagonist" is either going to be defined in the context of a conflict (in which case you're establishing the protagonist based on point-of-view), or when generally-defined, someone who opposes the people and groups currently in power.

And would you call my antagonists, villians? Cause to me, antagonists in fiction are villians. Because you can also have an antagonizing individual in your own "party". So not all of them would be villians but even allies.

EDIT: And Im still not fully on the ship here. Having an opinion about leadership or the way the system works in a settlement or upon the island should not make someone an enemy. If it is so, the "democratic" systems all over Arelith is just for show and a mechanic.

Antagonists are not the same thing as villains. Antagonists are often villains, but not always villains. The Sheriff of Nottingham in the Robin Hood stories (not the Disney film, where they made him a villain) is an antagonist because he is the lawful side that opposes the chaotic Robin Hood, but he is not a villain. Lady Catherine de Bourgh is an antagonist in Pride and Prejudice without being a villain because she takes a strong position that happens to be counter to the protagonists' desires. The white whale in Moby Dick is an antagonist without being a villain essentially because Captain Ahab decided it would be.

I see. As you know, my first language is not English. I have often put antagonist and villian in the same category. But this is a simplification. This is a new perspective. I ponder about other examples. Antagonistic ally is suddenly something I find to be a bit interesting in a way. It means you can have someone disagreeing with you and seen as an opponent but you still have a common enemy. Bit like capitalism and communism in the second world war.


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