Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

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Waldo52
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Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Waldo52 » Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:24 am

As a dedicated evil player, I've encountered a backward approach to antagonists: ignoring them entirely, without respect to setting integrity or what we could call the "reality" of the world.

Some characters will begin to walk away the moment things get scary. There are no emotes, no comments. No indications of walks away frightened or ignores you.

The player himself is saying "No thank you, I do not enjoy this kind of content". But without a "F*** off" or "Please don't hurt me!" from the actual character the entire RP becomes a surreal joke. The implication from this kind of behavior is that this is not a huge multiplayer storytellng collaboration where the actions of others are as real as our own, and we can pick which aspects of the world we treat as legitimate/canon/worthy of attention. This is not an interaction between two characters, this is a player telling a character "you are an inconvenience to my plot arc, and you do not exist. I do not engage with this sort of content."

This can be hard to deal with. You either let the character walk away and reward his completely unaccountable behavior or gut him like a hog. Essentially you as the antagonist are responding either by breaking from character (because WHY would your character let him go?) or basically being perceived as a spoilsport griefer.

Logging to avoid PVP is another very related problem. It's unsportsmanlike and similarly reality breaking. I'm tempted to consider such incidents as successful kills in my personal canon, but then I feel like I'm denying the "reality" of our shared fantasy setting and substituting my own canon, which is exactly what the player who logged was doing. On the other hand, if I accept a basic WYSIWYG approach and honor the objective realities of the world, my would be victim saw me and dematerialized. This is similarly odd and a violation of setting integrity.

I want non-evil characters to imagine an opposite scenario. Pretend I'm a necromancer actively summoning corpses near Bendir. Your paladin arrives and says "halt". I don't like PvP, or think I'll lose or otherwise find this situation undesirable. Let's just say it's not my kind of material and I'm just going to ignore it.

This is obviously absurd. I have to do SOMETHING. I may opt to just run, but this is an in-character decision. I can't just stand there saying nothing until you decide you'll abandon the RP and I can't just run for my life and send you angry tells after you butcher me.

These are the kinds of situations that legitimate robbers and evil PvP characters find themselves in all the time. There seems to be an unspoken rule among a lot of the player base that evil content is optional and that all PvP with evil players must involve a degree of consent from non-evil parties. I wanted to take some time to air this grievance and see if other evil characters have had similar experiences.

Last edited by Waldo52 on Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:39 am, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Good Character » Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:34 am

As another player who consistently plays evil characters and has been on Arelith for 5+ years, this is a common gripe.

I had this exact situation happen to me recently. The issue is that we're expecting players to fully commit to roleplaying their characters when in reality players react IRL to the scenarios; adrenaline, fear, etc. become a genuine reaction. That also means players take a mental dump, and forget they should be roleplaying in response.

It takes months to years for a player to realize they are not their characters.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:01 am

I think this has always been thing, and whilst I do sympathise, past a certain point I wonder what the value of 'forcing' these things is?

Don't get me wrong, logging to avoid pvp or goading conflict but not accepting any negative consequence (e.g. playing say, a Paladin who screams all necromancers must die, and then just lenses out when any necromancer comes close to him) all of these are tremendously poor form, and maybe even rule breaks (slightly dependent on situation.)

I mean, players gonna do what players gonna do. it's difficult to really force any roleplay onto someone who doesn't want to go with it.

For example, your Necro finds a helpless adventurer on the road and engages them in combat! You win! But the player who is killed really isn't interested in this sort of rp, they just want to quietly have fun grinding the Kobolds or whatever. So they respawn, and just hang out in the Nomad a bit until their penalties go away. They don't mention the incident to anyone, because it wasn't fun for them, thney'er not interested in persuing the story line, they just see it as an irritating blip.

So other than bragging rights for yourself and your buddies, is there much difference in the above to say - either them just lensing out and/or you just going around pretending you killed them? Pretty much none from everyone elses perception.

Could we force such a recation? Maybe. We could stand above them and go 'Ok so you need to emote sobbing in terror wetting yourself, muttering that you want hurt by the awful necromancer and now you want to go home to your mummy!' but a) that would prove very unpopular b) at least u pto a certain n point I don't think it's wise for DMs to manage, let alone micromanage pcs reactions c) I don't think we have the manpower to do that for every single pc.

This to me is where the RPB system (should at least) come in. We as Dms (and it helps if you guys assist with this) need to reward those who DO react to conflict well, who do face it, who do engage in it, who do make fun and interesting decisions, who don't just flee from it.

The simple fact is that Arelith (and roleplay in general) isn't a book. You can NEVER dictate how other people will react. You can make guesses, make nudges, offer storylines and hope they bite, but really it's ultimatly down to the player. If you find a player that bites? That takes what you offer and runs with it in a fun and interesting way... the best thing to is ENCOURAGE that player! Give out Kudos! Say thank you in tells! Send recommendations! Be willing to loose yourself and give that player the sort of story line they want!

It's collaberative, and whilst we can and should absoltlutly encourage collaborative behaviour, excepting in the most extreme cases it's difficult for us to properly punish it.

This too shall pass.

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Wethrinea » Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:45 am

It may feel unfair, but as the instigator, the responsibility to create a situation that people want to engage with falls on you. At least initially.

And this is true whether you are an evil or good character: A band of necro-hunting paladins have the same responsibility to create a worthwhile experience for the necromancer they manage to catch, as a band of brigands ambushing travelers do. "Do this or die" situations are seldom ever any enjoyable for those at the receiving end, and unless you are into PvP the question is usually just "How many rounds will I survive this time?".

TLDR; If you want people to engage with you, you have to offer a compelling reason to do so.

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by -XXX- » Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:48 am

One side of this isn't really such a bad thing : if the other player is incapable of removing themselves from their character and that's their reaction, they were probably never a good choice to be the villain's adversary in the first place.

Where this gets truly vexing is the part where the other player can still log back in a few hours later and proceed to actively damage the villain on an indirect axis - either by outing their identity on the public message boards or approaching PvP kill squads to engage the villain with an overwhelming force.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Perplexia » Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:52 am

i honestly find it incredibly disappointing that a total aversion towards PvP is so prevalent on this server, to the point of some players wishing to "opt out" of it entirely

do people really just hate losing that badly, or am i missing something?

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Morgy » Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:28 pm

Perplexia wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:52 am

i honestly find it incredibly disappointing that a total aversion towards PvP is so prevalent on this server, to the point of some players wishing to "opt out" of it entirely

do people really just hate losing that badly, or am i missing something?

I don’t think it’s the losing, but more the fact it doesn’t matter how strong your PC canonically is, or how good/gracious a RPer you might be, the PvP combat is not connected to any of that… it’s often the result of OOC skill and character build. This is what makes people reluctant to engage in it, because their personal PvP ability isn’t necessarily an accurate reflection on how competent their PC should be in battle.

I myself enjoy a meaningful bit of PvP, which I class as duels or even group battles related to conflict, rather than sucker punching or gank squading someone.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Ajinai » Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:35 pm

Perplexia wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:52 am

i honestly find it incredibly disappointing that a total aversion towards PvP is so prevalent on this server, to the point of some players wishing to "opt out" of it entirely

do people really just hate losing that badly, or am i missing something?

There is a difference in dying after you've actively chase after a bad guy or a hero and then in the final confrontation you get defeated and dying because a character 10 levels above you wants to grow fame/infamy and you chose the wrong path. The latter reduces you to "dead man #1" in the episodes credits and you rarely want to be that. Top that off with death penalties and now you can't even return to leveling.

Even if the guy who got whacked wanted to pursue a revenge plot he is 10 levels off from even having a chance at a fulfilling showdown so he is left with really just and option to suck it up and let it go. So all that time was used up for nothing for them really.

I get the point of the other end as well. You need to do things like that for your story to progress, but expecting everyone to bend their own stories to become your victims is a tall order. As someone said before, as the instigator it is your responsibility to make the risk of defeat and everything related to it worth it.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Cihparg » Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:43 pm

I would offer a suggestion.
Rather than make a direct attempt at being an antagonist (with potential PVP in mind), ask the other party if they're fine with it, rather than go there and then wait for player consent. Angry, hostile RP is fine, just don't escalate it too far with players who don't like it.
A lot of players do not handle confrontation well, that's sort of human nature.

In the event that the other party does not want to escalate things to PvP, or things out of their comfort zone, try to adapt your own roleplay to that.
If you handle the player contact aspect of the conflict well enough, chances are more players would be willing to engage in it.

Tl;dr: No "/tell <target> I'm going to killbash you now kthxbye", more "/tell <target> Hey, my character's really pissed, and I'd like to to vent his frustration IC (PVP). Do you think that'd be cool?"

Edit: Think of it like using your cars blinkers.
People don't know you're going to turn if you don't use them.

Edit 2: Also, it might make the confrontation more likely if you as the antagonist are willing to lose the fight, no matter what the actual character builds are. Sure, as a level 30 it'll be really hard to lose to a level 1, but that's an extreme case. A level 10 beating a level 20, or a level 10 trash build vs level 5 meta, is a more sensible comparison.

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Preserver » Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:02 pm

Perplexia wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:52 am

i honestly find it incredibly disappointing that a total aversion towards PvP is so prevalent on this server, to the point of some players wishing to "opt out" of it entirely

do people really just hate losing that badly, or am i missing something?

There is also the matter of players (such as I) that simply do not find PvP, as a mechanical system, fun. I personally do not enjoy being involved in PvP, and find it a somewhat unfun preamble to the post-defeat RP: to me, it is just as acceptable to OOCly agree with the other party that I lost, and then continue with the RP, rather than engage with the exercise that PvP is.
However, refusal to engage with the mechanics bears a weight, and that is something I simply accept.
AKA: I do not want to engage with the nuances of PvP? Fine, I'll probably always lose in direct confrontation.

Which is absolutely okay as long as I am aware of that and make a conscious choice to do so. I do not think it particularly virtuous or malicious, it is just a playstyle.

In relation to the OP's post.
I believe good OOC communication is at the core of these sort of events. Be cordial with the other party, provide an out if they appear to be particularly uncomfortable with the notion, and if they truly are that alienated by the scenario you offer, then just accept it as being part of the many quirks that you handwave when playing Arelith. It wasn't meant to be.

Yet it pays to remember that the conflict instigators are those who move the narrative forward. Therefore, I would encourage you to keep trying even when you meet many unpleasant instances: those that work nicely will still be important RP moments for you and for those that participate.

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Nobs » Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:02 pm

I find thats a bit of both.
Some players wil go with a lot of rp win or lose and others just want to play without any conflict.

The real trick is to just keep at it realy and have fun with it and hope other players like it aswel.
You can get a few interactions that dont go so well or people get a bit upset but as a player its hard to know what player wil oocly like something or not and it would be a shame if we stop doing evil great or small as a good number of people do like it.

Some of my latest pvp's that i had to give a few examples that in my opinion where fun.

On skal my half orc wanted to sell some of the items he found but the 2 temp shops where always in use so he started to ask around for one of the shop keepers and when he found the man told him to vacate the shop or els.
The player (Who btw was epic in his reactions) tried to sell the shop to me for some gold and a little fight broke out where my orc won and told the man to vacate the shop and he did.
I like to think that was a fun bit of conflict about something rather simple.

On my halfling i stuck my hand into the wrong pocket and got stunned by a blade orb now as this was in cordor and there where a good number of guards in that spot my hin got confronted realy fast and hostiled by a few (As well they should) and after a little bit of rp my hin ran away getting out of the city alive.
Not sure how the guards felt about it but for me it was fun to "lose" that interaction.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Perplexia » Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:30 pm

Morgy wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:28 pm

I don’t think it’s the losing, but more the fact it doesn’t matter how strong your PC canonically is, or how good/gracious a RPer you might be, the PvP combat is not connected to any of that… it’s often the result of OOC skill and character build.

Preserver wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:02 pm

There is also the matter of players (such as I) that simply do not find PvP, as a mechanical system, fun. I personally do not enjoy being involved in PvP, and find it a somewhat unfun preamble to the post-defeat RP: to me, it is just as acceptable to OOCly agree with the other party that I lost, and then continue with the RP, rather than engage with the exercise that PvP is.

both fair points, i'll admit i've always thought the way PvP often plays out looks and feels utterly ridiculous from an IC perspective

i just don't really know what the alternative would be

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Zavandar » Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:55 pm

i think a lot of it has to do with the fact you basically can't rp a badass if you're not good at the game

and a lot of people want to be badasses

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Perplexia » Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:24 pm

Zavandar wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:55 pm

you basically can't rp a badass if you're not good at the game

i disagree with this mindset, instead of treating a loss as your character not being as strong or awesome as you imagine them to be, think of it as the other character simply being even more of a badass

just because one guy managed to kick your snuggybear doesn't mean all those times you single-handedly defeated a dragon are any less impressive

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by chris a gogo » Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:29 pm

Some players just want the win regardless and never give an out, so walking away and lensing away is often the only option.
Also as has been said Character role play has nothing to do with PvP combat.
Because of this a lot of players don't care about the actual combat I don't and i know what im doing. but this isn't an action or arena server so the PvP combat is the worse part of it.

Only tip i have is make the random encounter fun and if you win don't kill them killing characters just annoys the player as they have to spend the next hour waiting for the debuffs to wear off.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Watchful Glare » Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:38 pm

Morgy wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:28 pm
Perplexia wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:52 am

i honestly find it incredibly disappointing that a total aversion towards PvP is so prevalent on this server, to the point of some players wishing to "opt out" of it entirely

do people really just hate losing that badly, or am i missing something?

I don’t think it’s the losing, but more the fact it doesn’t matter how strong your PC canonically is, or how good/gracious a RPer you might be, the PvP combat is not connected to any of that… it’s often the result of OOC skill and character build. This is what makes people reluctant to engage in it, because their personal PvP ability isn’t necessarily an accurate reflection on how competent their PC should be in battle.

I myself enjoy a meaningful bit of PvP, which I class as duels or even group battles related to conflict, rather than sucker punching or gank squading someone.

This carries more weight knowing you're actually pretty good at PvP (Which you are, it's not sarcastic, I've seen your characters whoop people in incredible ways)

I think the "I refuse to engage with you" runs on many levels. There is also the "I refuse to engage or acknowledge you unless I win at PvP, then I expect RP. Otherwise it never happened.". There are players whom haven't changed in years, likely won't. They play the game to have their fun and that is what fun is to them.

I find in OP's described situation the best is to approach by emoting and writing decent responses to whoever you are interacting with and see the way which they respond. Feel the water. There's a certain level of jadedness about being approached by a fully warded individual that roleplays at you in dialogue only and flips hostile two words in, that can make the other player (rightfully) feel you're not there to RP with them and build a narrative, but to kill them because you know you can and they're Mook #3 in the credits and then you'll take their ear/head/whatever to your friends and diss them or use it for bragging rights, if it even is brought up.

A certain helplessness that is even OOC. I know some people just can't PvP at all, or they're not as knowledgeable as me, which isn't saying much as I'm barely ok at it. But there are people who never PvP and have no clue about the mechanics, or they've never done it and get the PvP jitters and mess up immediately.

If that happens they're a corpse so they've lost already. And losing when you're not even in the same category is just about as unengaging. As is, frankly, death. If I kill them what are they going to do? They'll just respawn. There's no follow up. They won't roll and stay dead. So you've created a situation in which there's no engagement from the other side because there's no chance of it aside from them respawning and their character losing their memory. They were strolling somewhere and then woke up in a cave. That, and also next time they see your character the player will remember what the interaction was like, if it was enjoyable. If it felt like it was inclusive RP or their character was an NPC enemy with a better AI.

The onus is on the antagonist (antagonist can be good aligned, too) to provide or telegraph in certain way they're more interested in RP than in dunking the other person because they're interested in the RP benefits of saying they've killed the victim in PvP, but otherwise don't really much care about them or their side.

This may not always be the case. Sometimes your character will run into a mortal enemy out of the blue and maybe you're both flabbergasted enough at the chance you just don't know what to say except for the knowledge they should fight, you freeze up, you mess up. But in many cases you do get the chance to. If you're roleplaying with strangers, you also have no way of knowing whether they'll flip hostile and go "SHEVARASH BE PRAISED, DIE" while you're typing at them but in most cases, and when you have the upper hand, the onus is on you to try.

Specially if your character walks around warded lit up like a christmas tree, because it shows that person is ready for trouble and for all you know, it is looking for it. It's like having a gun pointed at you or meeting a stranger that has a holstered gun and places it's hand on it while he looks at you very intensely.

Provide different outs other than death, even in defeat. Give them a chance to see if they incorporate it into their RP. Be moderate in your victories, don't teabag them and humiliate them. Treat them with the kind of dignity that would make defeat enjoyable or engaging, as if they were a significant character in a series rather than an extra. Then the ball is in their court.

I find every time that has been the case I've had interesting and fun conflicts with people, or it turns into some kind of begrudging respect. I've won plenty of times, and I've lost plenty of times, and that always remains a constant. I look to those players as people I'd like to lose to as I know they'll make it fun for me as well if it happens.

There are players who refuse to acknowledge anything mildly inconvenient to ever happen them up to and to the point of it escalating to PvP and being killed all the time for it and still ignoring it, but there is nothing you can do about that. If it breaches the point of the character flat out ignoring everything and not fearing death in the slightest all you can do is try to reach out to them OOCly, if you've the patience for that, or just report them otherwise. I feel like those cases are in the extreme minority, however.

Last edited by Watchful Glare on Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Aradin » Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:43 pm

Morgy said it best.

Morgy wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:28 pm

I don’t think it’s the losing, but more the fact it doesn’t matter how strong your PC canonically is, or how good/gracious a RPer you might be, the PvP combat is not connected to any of that… it’s often the result of OOC skill and character build. This is what makes people reluctant to engage in it, because their personal PvP ability isn’t necessarily an accurate reflection on how competent their PC should be in battle.

As far as roleplay goes, writing emotive text, giving your character depth, interacting with other characters on meaningful levels, doing things like events and being in positions of narrative power...all of this stuff is tied to the roleplaying skill of the player. PvP is a different beast entirely; the meat of the action (click fast, move smart, know on an OOC level the rock-paper-scissors of countering abilities and how to punish) is a completely different skillset than the rest of the roleplaying experience. If you can write a good villain but you can't keep up with the ever-changing meta, it can feel like a real disconnect. For players who feel like they're good at the roleplay part and not at the combat part but their CHARACTER should be good at it...I get it. Or, as Preserver points out, some people just don't enjoy PvP. Heck, some people aren't good at PvP but still like playing divisive characters who tend to find themselves in PvP due to their roleplaying actions.

No matter what the angle I think we can all agree that we all want to have fun here, not get stressed. But you signed up to play on an immersive roleplay server where you don't control the world around you. Antagonist PCs are part of that world. PvP being forced upon you is part of that world. That's not to say it should be done lightly. There are many good-form things antagonistic characters can do to make these situations fun and engaging, provide outs beyond 'do this or die', checking in with the player afterwards with a tell to make sure all's well, etc. and I believe they should be doing those things.

Anyway this mindset isn't going to change from one forum thread, so to Waldo I'd just say if you're doing everything you can to make your antagonism a fun experience for the characters you're forcing these situations on, just keep trying with new people! There are lots of great players out there who will reciprocate interesting antagonism.

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Amateur Hour » Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:47 pm

I think there's a couple factors here, many which have been covered but one I've not seen mentioned:

Say I am playing Galahad Good-Guy and spot Alvin the Animator in Sibayad with mummies in tow. Galahad is a Good Guy, and therefore can't be okay with half-rotting corpses walking around like they own the place. Can Galahad take down Alvin? Probably not alone, because I suck at PvP and correspondingly don't play characters who like getting into duels (and it's respecting death to not get into fights you know you can't win), so it's not going to go to PvP right then and there. Okay, so Galahad could go get buddies to confront Alvin...but I also know that when it comes to being surface evil, as soon as one city guard hears "Alvin is an animator!" it's going to be a matter of 24 hours at most before all and sundry know Alvin is an animator and Alvin's on every ostensibly-goodly-group's "begone, foul creature!" list and gets killed for daring to breathe outside the Underdark.

Now, it's true Alvin's player might find that fun, but the vast majority of people I've talked to who play overt evils just want to be able to have their Arelith funtime with Voltaire playing in the background. If Galahad does go back and try to get a posse together, it's going to get a lot harder for Alvin to keep animating, which may mean I have wrecked everything for Alvin's player. Walking away like you don't see what's going on is one of few ways to avoid becoming the fun-wrecker.

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Zavandar » Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:19 pm

Perplexia wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:24 pm
Zavandar wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:55 pm

you basically can't rp a badass if you're not good at the game

i disagree with this mindset, instead of treating a loss as your character not being as strong or awesome as you imagine them to be, think of it as the other character simply being even more of a badass

just because one guy managed to kick your snuggybear doesn't mean all those times you single-handedly defeated a dragon are any less impressive

i'm not saying that's how it should be

i'm saying that's how it is

Intelligence is too important

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Ork » Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:24 pm

We're here to roleplay. Ignoring a player's investment into roleplay is the ultimate slap in the face, and it doesn't feel good - no matter your character's intentions. I think DMs ought punish this behavior severely. We all agreed to the rules on connecting to this server. There is no consent needed to push conflict/antagonistic roleplay on this server. If a player refuses to engage by failing to roleplay, they've broken rule #1 and should be conseqeuenced for it.

Let's make sure, too, if this happens to you you report it.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by dominantdrowess » Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:31 pm

Morgy wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:28 pm

I don’t think it’s the losing, but more the fact it doesn’t matter how strong your PC canonically is, or how good/gracious a RPer you might be, the PvP combat is not connected to any of that… it’s often the result of OOC skill and character build. This is what makes people reluctant to engage in it, because their personal PvP ability isn’t necessarily an accurate reflection on how competent their PC should be in battle.

I myself enjoy a meaningful bit of PvP, which I class as duels or even group battles related to conflict, rather than sucker punching or gank squading someone.

This is part of why - unless something egregious has happened a number of people would agree about -- I don't like just throwing down. Public Enemy? Sure. Pickpockets? Yeah. Someone known for breaking into people's Houses? Destroyers of fixtures, etc? ... But my character doesn't usually kill people she has verbal altercations or even largely different values from - paladins included - unless she actually gets something fairly obvious out of them being murdered or is under orders from on high. (A district leader, social or peer pressure because someone she knows she can easily kill is blatantly insulting her (as opposed to just being gruff, rude, or simply arrogant -- which she usually lets people get away with) in the hub, etc.) ... I hate fighting over "nothing".. where a dead player is just dead, and there's no real even imagined "gain".

It just "ends" roleplay. But? One of my favorite things to fight over with surfacers in PvP? Runic Chests (or anywhere throughout the dungeon), ever since Falgrim Vintergaard thumped me and a friend in The Needle Room Chamber.. and the fact that subdual works these days? I like letting people live after the fight if they can control their mouths when they're on their backs with a sword over them. It can be really a dramatic way to spread the word if you kill some but leave survivors. (Especially if they get to rez their friends so people don't get rez-timers.).. which is why I am kinda glad they got rid of the big severed heads.

You don't -have- to kill everybody you beat in PvP. While a lot of people who get subdued won't stop smarting off till you murder them? At least trying to keep people alive when you're forced to fight will net you the occasional diamond in the rough.

Last edited by dominantdrowess on Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.

chris a gogo
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by chris a gogo » Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:42 pm

Is walking away from a fight not role playing?

Or do you have to say.
"bye Evil McEvilface I have a hair appointment and I'm running late, maybe if we meet again you can talk at me some more? I mean I was trying to kill these Gibberlings but you seem intent on my death and I'm really not overly keen on dying in the next six seconds...so chow for now."
Or words to that effect.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by -XXX- » Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:49 pm

I think that a lot of the PvP jadedness stems from the fact that the traditional narrative templates translate very poorly into a PW environment conflict RP, often yielding unsatisfactory results for all parties involved.

Let's take the hero's journey for example - our hero hits an obstackle (say, gets beaten by a villain), but they're tough, refuse to stay down and go through their arc to rise up to the challenge [insert PvE pharming montage here, BiS gear crafting, eye of the tiger playing in the background and everything].
Narratively a great story - I'd totally watch that as a movie and have a good time!

Now let's take a look at it from the other player's perspective - all they can see is this persistent pest that keeps coming at them out of the woodwork to challenge them at every step while refusing to acknowledge any outcome other than their own victory. This is then more reminiscent of the Monty Python's The Black Knight meme than a good story.

Last edited by -XXX- on Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Ork » Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:52 pm

chris a gogo wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:42 pm

Is walking away from a fight not role playing?

Or do you have to say.
"bye Evil McEvilface I have a hair appointment and I'm running late, maybe if we meet again you can talk at me some more? I mean I was trying to kill these Gibberlings but you seem intent on my death and I'm really not overly keen on dying in the next six seconds...so chow for now."
Or words to that effect.

You've set yourself up an odd strawman, but if our intention is to roleplay we've a requirement to describe through text our character's actions. Just turning around and walking away is enough to satisfy the RP before PvP requirement, but it certainly isn't enough to show you're upholding what your character would do in a situation.

If I was met with a, "Oh no!" turns to flee manically down the hill or a "You'll not take my gold thief!" sprints headlong away that would be different but that's certainly not what OP is describing.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Preserver » Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:03 pm

Generally speaking, some simple guidelines that I think have often worked for me are as follows.

.oO As the Instigator Oo.


+++ No rule forces you to ask for consent to PvP. However, it is gracious to do so nevertheless if you feel the situation demands it, and it is especially gracious to ask for feedback after the fight. If you feel that asking for consent is too high a standard, a polite warning before hitting "!" is fine.
+++ If you want to be an instigator of conflict and a bad-Snuggybear but are not good at PvP, make sure your bad-assness is not based exclusively on being able to win fights.
+++ If you feel as if you have the upper hand often and easily, deploy tools that facilitate the assaulted party/parties to have outs, so that there can be a balance of agency you can both have on the micro-conflict within the larger plot. It serves most plots very little to be like "Ahah, yeah, I killed John seven times." beyond the initial memetic factor.
+++ Unless it is a core aspect of your character (in which case I would consider, perhaps reviewing that aspect through organic RP), try to be gracious in victory ICly, both with the victim and with your subsequent boasting. Tell people it was a hard fight, that you had a mix of skill and luck, that you won in that context but are not sure it would happen in a different context, etc...

.oO As the Non-Instigator Oo.


+++ Understand that the instigator is under no obligation to ask for your consent to PvP and, therefore, be extra lenient and positive with those who actually do.
+++ If you want to participate instigated conflicts in badass ways but are not good at PvP, make sure you build characters that do not derive their bad-assness from being able to win fights.
+++ If you become part (or are a target) of an instigated conflict that appears based on solid RP, err on the side of understanding and participation to the benefit of the instigator, they're busting their butt to try and create a narrative.
+++ If you have concerns after the fight, communicate them OOCly to the instigator, politely. You will often find that good roleplayers understand when they messed up, even before you tell them.

-



Yes, I basically advocate for the Instigator and the Non-Instigator to both err on the side of the other party. Most of my best conflict interactions on Arelith were based on reciprocal understanding that the conflict was about creating interesting story beats and, in my experience, interesting story beats contain internal variance, tension, reversals, and satisfying resolutions (nothing of which derives from "Hi, I hate you. - !".

Also, generally speaking, keep OOC interactions cordial before and after the events.

This is, of course, what worked for me. Personal experience may vary.

~ Lladria Sethassiel ~ (Dead!) - ~ Siobhan Gray (Departed!)
~ Elspeth Lynndain (Dead!) - Noasheel Xephrates (Dead!)
~ Yachta - ~ Providence (Dead!)


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