Capture RP

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D4wN
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Capture RP

Post by D4wN » Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:07 pm

The below musings are my own opinions. I don’t need people to agree, I just felt this worth sharing and perhaps start a healthy discussion on.

I find that capture RP has a light and dark side.

The light side:

It can bring incredible development to the character captured and the people doing the capturing. If done well.

The dark side:

It can leave the captive dissatisfied when not done well and even create toxicity and a lot of drama. It especially tends to create a lot of drama for the friends of the captive who now struggle and fight to try and break their friend or family member free and feel entirely helpless and excluded from any RP with very few to no possible rescue attempts.

What constitutes good capture RP?

Good capture RP is where both sides show respect for one another and collaborate. The captive should consider that they were nearly dead most likely when they were captured and that something bad may well be waiting for them at the end be it torture, enslavement or the possibility of perma-death (yes, we should all treat death as if it can be our last).

As the captive you have a responsibility to RP that you know you are in a predicament like that. I have seen captives insult their captors with childish banter, throw acid bombs or cast spells at them and do all sorts of things that make me wonder why they even agreed to capture RP in the first place (remember this is entirely of your own choosing).

As the captor you have a responsibility to make it engaging and fun for the captive while ensuring they don’t start to feel uncomfortable. In addition, you can choose to ensure that their friends and family members are engaged in some way, but you have no real obligation to. Your obligation is to the captive in the first place, just be mindful there is a whole group who are now feeling stressed and want to participate. Consider sending minions to keep them busy. But the captive agreed to be taken captive so now you gotta make sure they have the best experience. It’s okay to try and find out what their expectations are and you can do this without organising stuff OOCly.

Where it always goes wrong:

There are in my opinion a few things that repeatedly go wrong or are being done wrong with capture RP (I’m not trying to criticise anyone, I’m just sharing my personal observations over the past few years)

1) The side of the captives storm the proverbial castle too quickly putting unneeded pressure on the captors which usually leads to unsatisfied experiences by the captive. I have seen rescue attempts being done as quickly as 5 minutes after someone is captured. Good capture RP can take several hours to actually have any meaningful impact.

2) capture RP is incredibly stressful for the friends/family of the captive. There is the expectation from others and from themselves that they must retrieve their loved one as soon as possible and goading from the other side certainly doesn’t help with that. Many players have an inherent must win mentality which leads to this behaviour. But the captive and captors should be mindful and considerate how their RP may impact those around them.

3) boring, repetitive and unimaginative

As the captor you really don’t have many options as to what you can do with a captive once you have them. I feel this is in part due to mechanical limitations but also because I feel some captors lack the imagination. What’s the point capturing someone if you’re just going to kill them again at the end? And is it really fun to capture people every week or twice a week to ransom them back for millions of gold? I’ll be honest, it’s a lot easier to be imaginative with your captive’s fate as a bad guy since you have so many more options. As a good guy you’re incredibly limited to your options. Even so, I do encourage people to be as creative as possible when holding the life of a captive. You will find that many people who agree to be rezzed or taken captive are also likely to agree to have something nasty done to them like a curse or spell.

4) be reasonable

Even as a good guy, think about making an agreement with them for a favour or perhaps get them to give you information in exchange for their freedom, have them spy for you, make them do community service, get them to steal something from a House or faction they work for. Etc etc. you have options even here. Try to think about what would create further opportunities for RP. Of course, if they completely don’t cooperate then they choose not to leave you any options for creativity. But at least you tried. As the captor you should also be flexible and reasonable when making demands to negotiate someone’s freedom. Asking them to make a significant change or decision outside of their control, asking them to pay millions of gold for someone’s freedom, these things are not reasonable and you are putting both the captive and their loved ones in a situation where they can all only walk away feeling disappointed and dissatisfied.

5) collaborate

Ask yourself why you want to do capture RP. Both as the captive and captor. What do you expect to get out of this? If it isn’t for character development and story, should you really be doing this? Why not just kill them, bash them and be done with it? If it just to flaunt your victory over the other side, then you’re doing it for the wrong reasons. If you’re getting captured because your buddies are on the opposing side and you enjoy RPing with them, you’re doing it for the wrong reasons. If you don’t seek to collaborate in this and make sure everyone has fun (and that includes the captive’s loved ones), then why are you even doing it?

When I talk about captivity RP, I’m not referring to arrests etc. I’m talking about capturing actual enemies after raids or inner conflict wars.

Constantly kidnapping people and selling them back to their loved ones for millions of gold is unimaginative, agreeing to capture RP and then insulting your captors or throwing bombs or spells at them after you (nearly) died is immersion breaking.

I have felt this topic in need of discussion for a long time. I apologise as well if some of this may seem direct or blunt (I’m Dutch.. I can’t help it. But trust me, I’m not trying to insult anyone).

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Bazelgeuse
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Re: Capture RP

Post by Bazelgeuse » Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:24 am

There's one thing thats bugged me for a while about capture RP, and it's the OOC shaming of people who agree to go along with capture RP, a roleplayed-out curse or something that isn't an explicitly mechanical effect, or RP beyond "i kill you, now you respawn".

It happens. I don't know why it happens. It's discouraging.


magistrasa
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Re: Capture RP

Post by magistrasa » Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:36 am

D4wN wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:07 pm

1) The side of the captives storm the proverbial castle too quickly putting unneeded pressure on the captors which usually leads to unsatisfied experiences by the captive. I have seen rescue attempts being done as quickly as 5 minutes after someone is captured. Good capture RP can take several hours to actually have any meaningful impact.

Lots of the commentary here has been pretty accurate descriptions my own experiences, but this point is definitely an annoying pet peeve of mine that I think creates the most unsatisfying experience on both sides of the encounter. Probably no coincidence that it's the first item on the list.

As a captor, I've had liaisons working out a meeting with the victim's companions to negotiate release, only for the captive to get yoinked the second we move out of the warded area to meet up at the designated location - so, all that time and effort spent setting up the meeting ends up completely wasted. As a captive, I've been on the other end of precisely that situation, and in one of those circumstances we had already defused hostilities and I was in the process of playing out a tender moment with a fellow survivor when I'm suddenly inundated with twelve rapid-fire yoink requests that I'm repeatedly refusing because they actively distract from the scene - only to find out, once I finally surrender to the yoink spam, that my prior refusals had led rise to rumors that my character had willingly collaborated with the enemy and secretly wanted to be captured the whole time. Playing the friend of a captured character, I've been dragged on many a wild goose chase to confront the captors almost immediately after the conclusion of combat, with no stated plan by the rescue party other than "find them and kill them!" - which, after this inevitably lands me in a room full of frustrated scriers who don't include the rest of the room in their observations or in front of a locked guildhouse with no way of entry, all this granting me a clear sense that there's no way I can meaningfully participate in what's happening, I eventually try to detach myself from the group, only to then be accused of "not caring enough" about the person in peril.

In all these scenarios, it's felt glaringly obvious that there's very little consideration paid by the allied players to the people who are experiencing this narrative. Everyone wants to Be The Solution, and seemingly no one knows how to deal with peril or suspense in a way that is constructive to the shared story. It's "all or nothing;" either you utilize every possible tool and mechanic and able body to expediently force the conflict to its resolution, or you give your character an attitude of exhaustion and apathy to justify their general disinterest towards involving themselves in any way whatsoever.

I look forward to seeing how a conversation on this topic plays out. Despite my best efforts to keep a positive and open mind, I know I tend to be judgmental towards captive roleplay in a manner similar to what Bazelgeuse calls out. I generally disdain most forms of OOC-coordinated roleplay, especially when it seems like it's just a narrative contrivance to justify spending time with your best buddies who are playing evil characters, but I know not every instance of captive roleplay happens that way. I think this is a subject that the community might benefit from considering and exchanging thoughts on, so I appreciate that this thread was made.

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MintoCloudpaw
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Re: Capture RP

Post by MintoCloudpaw » Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:18 am

D4wN wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:07 pm

The light side:

It can bring incredible development to the character captured and the people doing the capturing. If done well.

The dark side:

It can leave the captive dissatisfied when not done well and even create toxicity and a lot of drama. It especially tends to create a lot of drama for the friends of the captive who now struggle and fight to try and break their friend or family member free and feel entirely helpless and excluded from any RP with very few to no possible rescue attempts.

...

As the captor you have a responsibility to make it engaging and fun for the captive while ensuring they don’t start to feel uncomfortable. In addition, you can choose to ensure that their friends and family members are engaged in some way, but you have no real obligation to. Your obligation is to the captive in the first place, just be mindful there is a whole group who are now feeling stressed and want to participate. Consider sending minions to keep them busy. But the captive agreed to be taken captive so now you gotta make sure they have the best experience. It’s okay to try and find out what their expectations are and you can do this without organising stuff OOCly.

....

2) capture RP is incredibly stressful for the friends/family of the captive. There is the expectation from others and from themselves that they must retrieve their loved one as soon as possible and goading from the other side certainly doesn’t help with that. Many players have an inherent must win mentality which leads to this behaviour. But the captive and captors should be mindful and considerate how their RP may impact those around them.

While I wouldn't say that capture RP is -stressful- OOC, it can definitely be frustrating while remaining ICly stressful. Your friend/loved one has just been captured you're told they will be tortured unless you pony up a million+ gold which you don't have. You spend hours in negotiations getting stonewalled, half the server is scouting and trying to help out.

But it's not up to you, the friends/loved ones have no input on the RP. What they do doesn't matter, and we know it doesn't matter. It's entirely up to the captor/captive to decide when the RP is over and what effect it has on the overall narrative. Unless you have a quarterbreaker (or get really lucky with someone leaving the room), you can't make an assault to free someone (and that'd be a raid anyways). You can't scry them to see how they're doing, you can't talk to them to keep them company. The best you can do generally is either cough up the coin or try to yoink them.

It's the narrative equivalent of if everyone was locked out of Cordor for a day while the King and Chancellor discussed mystery things; large swaths of people just kicked out of roleplay.

Any wonder why people yoink people or storm the gate as soon as possible? It's fair to want to be involved in the narrative of roleplay affecting your character.

I think this is partly because of what you say above - that the Captor has no real obligation to RP with the friends/loved ones; which I think is part of the issue and also wrong. Just like in the real world, when someone gets kidnapped you don't just go for tea and hope for the best. You do everything in your power to help them, anything less would be immersion breaking, especially when you're goaded about your loved one being hurt because you're taking too long. Like it or not, stealing someone's loved one /is/ directly affecting their loved ones, and is engaging with them in roleplay. To not roleplay back is why so many people end up frustrated or just log out to not have to deal with it.

I think I've only had exactly two capture RPs that were enjoyable in six years. The first was DM initiated where a character got kidnapped for a DM plot and brought to the UD where RP demands were made and some gold given to release them. Even that left a lot of people annoyed by it. The second was a cool brawl-to-freedom gladiator match that happened recently in Dis.

It certainly doesn't help that most capture RP comes from raids. The same raids that you either run around never finding anyone, stand guard for 2RL hours bored, or get smashed by overwhelming numbers because you didn't know they were coming and you didn't have any combat wards on. Raids can occasionally be fun when there is a good clash of nearly equally prepared/sized forces, but 80% of them would be more fun logging off for.

magistrasa wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:36 am

In all these scenarios, it's felt glaringly obvious that there's very little consideration paid by the allied players to the people who are experiencing this narrative. Everyone wants to Be The Solution, and seemingly no one knows how to deal with peril or suspense in a way that is constructive to the shared story. It's "all or nothing;" either you utilize every possible tool and mechanic and able body to expediently force the conflict to its resolution, or you give your character an attitude of exhaustion and apathy to justify their general disinterest towards involving themselves in any way whatsoever.

I think this is a bit of a pessimistic look to it. Not everyone wants to Be The Solution, or wants to win. It doesn't make sense IC for many characters, especially good aligned, to just throw their hands up and go for lunch. Capture RP and Raids are pretty much the only two RP that full stop whatever RP is going on, complete disruption. Not even DM events have the same level of RP-freeze unless it's an NPC attack on a settlement.

Yes, it's a server where things can happen at any time. Yes, it's good to roll with it. But when it's the fifth capture RP that's taken up 4RL hours of your day, this month - and the entire time you've been powerless to affect the narrative? No wonder people grow tired and just want it over ASAP.

I had a lot of fun being able to RP with Victoria Helbretch when she was in jail (which I suppose counts as capture RP, so make that three!), but that's because people around her got to affect the narrative. Her allies got to break her out, her enemies got to yell at her, her old friends got to be sad.

That's a much more narratively satisfying outcome than just than the general "GP or HP" approach of "1 million gold or we torture them" for the fifth time this month.

This is no exaggeration, I've been involved in three capture RPs (and heard of a fourth I wasn't involved in) in the last three weeks. It's tiring, gets old fast and feels like I'm wasting my time not getting to be a part of a story that I ICly have to respond to. Frankly, I don't want to Be The Solution, I just want to be part of the roleplay beyond just being told to get my gold or go away.


So how should we fix it?

Well, maybe not keeping people locked up like it's capture the flag, let the friends/loved ones participate in the story. Like it or not, captive RP is not between only the captor and captive. Once word gets out that someone is stolen, you're now RPing with everyone that likes that. Let them actually participate. Let them engage with the captive, engage with them as a captor so that they feel like they matter to the story and aren't just piggy banks.

Also think of more fun things than just GP or HP approach that is 90% of the captive RP. The battle in the arena was very cool. It created a lot of RP. Making demands for them to do things that do not involve just draining bank accounts is also cool, as it mattered to people and changed things for more than the captive.


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D4wN
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Re: Capture RP

Post by D4wN » Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:22 am

Bazelgeuse wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:24 am

There's one thing thats bugged me for a while about capture RP, and it's the OOC shaming of people who agree to go along with capture RP, a roleplayed-out curse or something that isn't an explicitly mechanical effect, or RP beyond "i kill you, now you respawn".

It happens. I don't know why it happens. It's discouraging.

I 100% agree with this. And it is a difficult topic. What Magistrata mentions in their post about “not caring” is a big part of this. As the people attached to the captive you are mostly helpless and people hate feeling helpless. So then they go and try to circle yoink you and when you refuse their attempt to “care” is denied and when no other options are available they simply give up. In that feeling of helplessness they lash out. I do not personally think that wanting to experience capture RP is a bad thing and that just because you decline a yoink you are suddenly collaborating with the enemy or a willing captive. It’s difficult however to think what the solution could be in this instance to ensure everyone is happy and I cannot think of one.

But shaming people for their IC choices is never okay in my opinion.

As for OOCly organising to be captured, I’m thoroughly against it and discourage anyone from staging and coordinating things like this. Especially as an established character with many people who care about them. It genuinely causes people stress and anxiety. I’m all for going with the flow however. If you are cut down or caught somewhere in a compromising position, then sure go along with the capture. But don’t stage it. I once helped someone on request because they wanted to have a meaningful end for their character and I still regret it. OOCly coordination and scripted events are bad and I learned that lesson personally. OOC requests for consent and generally checking in with the other person when you have them captive is okay however.

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Re: Capture RP

Post by Rei_Jin » Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:25 am

If I ever capture someone, maybe I'll strand them on a deserted island with no way off the island, along with a tent and some supplies, and send one message to one person of their choice.

Bit of fun for everyone.


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Re: Capture RP

Post by MintoCloudpaw » Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:00 am

Rei_Jin wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:25 am

If I ever capture someone, maybe I'll strand them on a deserted island with no way off the island, along with a tent and some supplies, and send one message to one person of their choice.

Bit of fun for everyone.

Honestly, that sounds like a lot of fun.


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Re: Capture RP

Post by Cthuletta » Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:10 am

I'm definitely gonna chime in on the topic of 'Shaming people who go along with Capture RP', if only because...
Whenever I'm in a situation like that, no matter what side it's been on, it's never the captors I'm thinking of that leads to stress OOCly. It's how people react when my character goes BACK.
To the point that, in the past? My character just didn't go back at all. She stayed with her 'captors' instead, because it was more fun than going back to get a lecture and criticism, and that's not an IC-only thing. I've personally been spoken too poorly, DURING the middle of the RP, and it just hampered the entire experience for me. Thankfully, this was a long time ago.

People get called all sorts of things OOCly, or spoken of negatively, because they dared to go along with a kidnapping RP or negotiations, or what-have-you that lead to the character being in that position in the first place. We're on a roleplay server. Let people enjoy the story.
It's part of the conflict... and a lot of the time, the captors are pretty chill OOC about making sure you're having a good time. This is true for surface and UD, from what I've seen. It's an interesting story for the character to tell now, and you hopefully made a couple more RP friends on the player-side of things.
And speaking on the side of the CAPTOR, it is very unnerving, not always knowing what you are going to get in a captive. The player might be very angry about it, though it's usually a good idea to get consent beforehand anyway. I've also gotten consent, and then had minimal RP on their end, or so it seemed, until they vanished in a conjure. It was a bit of a bummer.

As far as the gold... yeah, that gets tiresome and stale. Letting a captive find other means to earn their own freedom has been a decent change, like when we saw a prominent figure fight in the Dis arena for his freedom. That was a GREAT event! It brought many people together that otherwise wouldn't interact from the surface and UD, to witness battles, and PvP. There was cheering and jeering, and everyone had a great time out of character (as far as I know, at least!). Not EVERYONE can take that route of course, but there's plenty to be done in those scenerios and I'm personally enjoying seeing it happen a little more often. Hopefully more stuff like that can be done.

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Re: Capture RP

Post by Ellisaria » Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:27 am

My contribution to this, as someone who experienced her first ever capture RP earlier today, is that shrines should give a message of who is trying to raise you the same as Raise Dead / Resurrection.

I was not aware that I was being raised by the enemy and not my own side. I went with the RP as it developed, but I was a bit overwhelmed by the sudden appearance of so many enemies and a lot of flying text. I did the best that I could and still probably missed things. My noble PC was stubborn and willful, but I tried to RP fatigue and weariness and observe the circumstances of her defeat even as she held her head high. Is that disrespecting the fact that she was dead? Is everyone expected to be meek and mild and just let the capture happen without protest? Maybe I did it wrong; I don't know. Someone else got involved soon thereafter, so my experience was cut short just when I was starting to get my feet beneath me. I did my best.

I will say that I had more fun with the capture RP than the chastising RP that awaited me when I returned. I realize that for many players, it's yawn another capture but for some of us, it's still shiny and new. Let us enjoy it, let us be terrified by it.


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Re: Capture RP

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:15 am

maybe this type of behavior mentioned above should be reported, honestly.

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Drethian
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Re: Capture RP

Post by Drethian » Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:16 am

As the player who arranged Urshak's event in Dis, and as the player who arranged a good majority of these most recent, successful raids that led to captives being ransomed, I'd like to offer my point of view and experiences with this topic.

Feedback from Captives:

In the last month or two, we've captured roughly fifteen characters. 100% of the feedback we received from them was highly praising and positive. Of those fifteen:

  • Nearly every single one thanked us for the roleplay and went out of their way to express how much they fun they had.
    (This is of course excluding the small few who didn't really get to RP with us at length due to having their freedom purchased too quickly.)

  • Many of them told us it was the most fun they'd had in a long while, and expressed that they were glad to have gone along with it.

  • The majority of these captives enjoyed the roleplay so much that they expressed a desire to interact with us further in the future.

  • A portion of them voluntarily took slave collars afterwards because they wanted to be a part of what we were doing in the long term.

  • A portion lamented that they couldn't join us on their alts due to potential violation of the crossing-the-streams rule.

  • Not a single one gave us negative feedback. Instead, we received an abundance of praise from nearly all of them.

  • Not a single one was a pre-planned capture. Every one occurred naturally, authentically, and for the captive, unexpectedly.

Observations:

We have not directly received a shred of negativity for any of it. The captives on the other hand, seem to have received a lot.

What we've observed is that the captives have by and large had a great time, but they've had to deal with the backlash of friends (both IC and OOC) who mistreated them for giving the story a chance.

This was especially noticeable when numerous players whose characters we captured confided in us that they were being:

  • Antagonized / shamed OOCly for accepting resses.
  • Antagonized / shamed ICly (by characters who purport to be their friends) for getting captured.

Our Principles / Modus Operandi:

It is exceedingly rare for people to go along with capture roleplay in NWN. It's an act of trust, good-faith, good sportsmanship, and it is immediately commendable. People who accept a raise for this sort of roleplay are outstanding sports and deserve to be rewarded with a good, enjoyable story for it.

Due to this:

  • It is of the utmost importance to us that their time in captivity (while not supposed to be ICly pleasant) is at least enjoyable for the player OOCly.

  • We almost NEVER leave someone unattended, sitting in a cell with no one to roleplay with. At all times we do our best to ensure someone is there to interact with them, keep them company, and give them some engaging roleplay.

  • We try our very best to communicate with captives at length OOCly to ensure their comfortability throughout the process.

  • We ensure there is player consent every step of the way.

  • We frequently tell captives (who we think might be in our hands for more than a day) that if negotiations fail, or that if they're at any point uncomfortable / not having fun, that we'll contrive an excuse to release them at no IC cost.

  • We work both ICly (with the captured character) and OOCly (with the player) to help formulate avenues for their release that they find both agreeable and comfortable.

  • We frequently make concessions IC for the sake of the player, OOCly. Such as artificially making their path to freedom easier, taking losses, "accidentally" forgetting to ward against teleportation, etc.

  • We often give captives the IC means to reduce to their own ransom costs.

  • As an alternative to paying gold, captives are generally given other ways to earn their freedom.

  • We outline numerous pathways to freedom for captives and let them choose their own path, rather than forcing a singular one upon them.

  • Captives are encouraged and freely enabled to propose ideas of their own for how they might earn their freedom (and we frequently agree to the ideas they propose.)

  • We don't raid to corpsebash people. If we encounter writworkers, we almost always let them go. If PvP somehow ensues with them, we use subdual.

  • We do our best to provide resses to anyone who will accept them. Though sometimes people respawn before we can send them a tell. Other times corpses get destroyed by AoEs in combat. But we do try to raise most anyone that we can.

  • At the end of the day, the goal of our raids is to create a story, spice up the server's narrative, and offer some engaging conflict that creates something to do, talk about, and enjoy, for all sides.

Final Thoughts:

Overall, it's a work in progress. We're a pretty new faction and we try to improve and refine our methods as we go.
So far, we've had what I consider to be resounding success given that all of the feedback we received from the captives themselves has been overwhelmingly positive.

As with any individual or group of people, despite the success, we are not perfect. We are ever searching for ways to improve and make the story enjoyable for all sides. Although, as anyone might know, it's very difficult to please everyone.

(It's also incredibly difficult to manage and interact with 20+ people at once, incorporate everyone who wants to be included, and still provide a high quality, enjoyable experience to all involved. It takes immense focus and a lot of effort. It's.. actually quite a lot of work.)

I would like to stress that not every person who we captured had to endure some non-negotiable ransom to be freed:

  • Urshak was permitted to fight in arena in Dis to win his freedom. And he won it.
  • Alis won freedom for Exordius by fighting in an arena in the Devil's Table.
  • Some captives escaped through natural means.
  • Some captives were permitted to escape. (i.e. We literally heard them conspiring to escape in whispers, and we pretended we didn't hear it. We deliberately stood down and let them make their escape successfully.)
  • Some captives were able to drastically reduce the costs of their own ransoms by alternative means, and their freedom was purchased through a mixture of both their own deeds and gold, rather than one alone.
  • Often times, ransoms were used as means to pay the people who raided. Profits were distributed evenly among them. While we do demand ransoms sometimes, this is not set in stone, and is highly negotiable.

Throughout every experience, our goals were fairly simple:

  • Offer captives engaging and enjoyable roleplay.
  • Simultaneously, work with their players to help them find a swift path to freedom.
  • Provide an avenue for the captive's release that (while reasonably considerate) still makes sense IC, is still is profitable to the captors, and still ends up being enjoyable for the player who is playing a captured character.

We are, of course, always open to hearing new ideas and recommendations. So, constructive criticism is entirely and ever welcome!


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Re: Capture RP

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:22 am

Drethian wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:16 am

stuff

you are doing blessed work. keep it up.

Vittoria Veleno
catch me if you can


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Re: Capture RP

Post by Drethian » Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:29 am

Ellisaria wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:27 am

My contribution to this, as someone who experienced her first ever capture RP earlier today, is that shrines should give a message of who is trying to raise you the same as Raise Dead / Resurrection.

I was not aware that I was being raised by the enemy and not my own side. I went with the RP as it developed, but I was a bit overwhelmed by the sudden appearance of so many enemies and a lot of flying text. I did the best that I could and still probably missed things. My noble PC was stubborn and willful, but I tried to RP fatigue and weariness and observe the circumstances of her defeat even as she held her head high. Is that disrespecting the fact that she was dead? Is everyone expected to be meek and mild and just let the capture happen without protest? Maybe I did it wrong; I don't know. Someone else got involved soon thereafter, so my experience was cut short just when I was starting to get my feet beneath me. I did my best.

I will say that I had more fun with the capture RP than the chastising RP that awaited me when I returned. I realize that for many players, it's yawn another capture but for some of us, it's still shiny and new. Let us enjoy it, let us be terrified by it.

A player from the other side, here! You did a great job playing your side of things, especially considering the wall of text flying at you from over a dozen players.

The very beginning is probably the most chaotic part of capture roleplay: When you're surrounded by an army and you're trying to keep up with the text. It's why we generally try to (at some point) usher you into a more private area for roleplay with a smaller group of people (1-5) for smoother, less chaotic roleplay that's easier to parse. (My character actually told most everyone to leave the room when we had Juniper earlier today, specifically so that the player wouldn't be overwhelmed with too much text at once.)

Your freedom was won really fast so we didn't get much of an opportunity roleplay with you. But I'm glad to hear that you had some fun during the brief time you were with us, at least! It was cool of you to go along with what you did. It's highly commendable, and we were ever appreciative. : )

P.S. I totally tried to send you a tell offering you a res. But, someone was praying at an altar with a pile of corpses at the time, so you were revived as I was typing it. I ended up just cancelling my message.

Thanks for being a great sport and going along with the brief bit of roleplay we had with you, though. I actually lament when captives are freed too quickly because it limits the window of opportunity we have to engage with them!


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Re: Capture RP

Post by Drethian » Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:31 am

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:22 am

you are doing blessed work. keep it up.

Much appreciated : )


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Re: Capture RP

Post by D4wN » Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:55 am

Ellisaria wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:27 am

My noble PC was stubborn and willful, but I tried to RP fatigue and weariness and observe the circumstances of her defeat even as she held her head high. Is that disrespecting the fact that she was dead? Is everyone expected to be meek and mild and just let the capture happen without protest? Maybe I did it wrong; I don't know. Someone else got involved soon thereafter, so my experience was cut short just when I was starting to get my feet beneath me. I did my best.

No. You don't have to RP being meek and feeble at all. You can be defiant even and act brave and courageous in the face of possible death, enslavement or torture. What I referred to earlier are examples of people who were defeated and captured acting like a child and using childish insults or start throwing acid bombs, spells etc at their captors. There's a lot of good cases to be made for being a strong fierce person while being captured.

Ellisaria wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:27 am

I will say that I had more fun with the capture RP than the chastising RP that awaited me when I returned. I realize that for many players, it's yawn another capture but for some of us, it's still shiny and new. Let us enjoy it, let us be terrified by it.

I don't agree with vilifying people after or during their capture. I think that everyone should ultimately have a say over their own character and what they want done to/with them. As long as there are no expectations from the captive either or shaming ICly that people didn't come to rescue you when you chose to be captured/stay in enemy hands, I don't see why anyone should give you a hard time for enjoying yourself.

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Re: Capture RP

Post by Arigard » Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:02 am

Having been involved in a fair amount of the capture RP in recent weeks on the UD side, it does feel like a majority of the stress around capture RP is coming from the chastisement of players who want to roll with the punches and RP with their captors.

Something that has been bothering me a little about it all though, is that I have noticed a pretty alarming trend, where the majority of backlash seems to be happening when the captives are female and those trying to rescue them are male IC. There seems to be a very aggressive subtext to a lot of this OOC outrage, that I can only assume is linked to some kind of relationship RP dark arts. It's highly noticable and frankly, it seems toxic.

I would strongly suggest we remind ourselves that this is a game and shouldn't be the medium for whatever OOC posturing is occuring, for whatever reason. Nobody owns these characters IC (although sometimes it feels like this is the opinion coming across) + nobody is doing capture RP to try and ruin someone elses time, or image IC. We are giving players the oppurtunity to experience a different side of RP and going along with that does not make them lesser RPers, it in fact it shows they are the opposite & as Drethian has stated, the overwhelming reaction to what has been occuring has been positive from those engaged in the RP.

I do understand that on a certain level, it may be frustrating to feel like there is no avenue to fight back on the side of those trying to retain their allies/friends who have been captured - but the groups I've seen leading capture RP have all been open to any kind of result, but rarely (if at all) have any interesting options offered out either IC or OOC. Usually the response is simply "Screw you, you're evil, we're going to kill you everytime we see you from now on + we carry on with our RP to the letter". There isn't really much to work with when that is the defacto response. If players want to be involved with capture RP, that's more than possible, but it's very difficult to accomodate that if there is absolutely no room to manouever IC + as much as we are happy to bend our RP to accomodate the prisoners wishes OOC, RP is a dance, they are dancing with us - but we cannot force anyone to enter into that dance if they are unwilling to do so. I've even been at negotiations where it feels like there isn't even any desire to even RP & OOC dislike seems to seep through every interaction. That's not fun for anyone and it's not what anyone is looking for in a RP world.

I suppose the the real crux of the issue coming from this thread is that the majority of the time there is no nuance at all from the RP that follows capture + that is true to an extent, so I would raise the question of why the captives are having such an interesting collaborate RP experience, are willing to stay in the RP for prolonged periods of time and the rescueers are seeimingly not. It isn't that we are somehow unable to compromise, or provide avenues for other characters to get involved in the RP as it progresses.

Ultimately, it is understandible that a character is IC upset, but much of this has also felt like that rescuers are similarly OOC upset. If captive players are unhappy with their situation, or short of time there have been mutliple occasions where they have been let go + as has been said in other places in the thread, there is a constant dialogue to ensure the situation progresses in a way that is comfortable. So, ultimately, any captives that are being held for any length of time, are clearly happy to be in the position they are in OOC. Evil should not exist to simply be Scooby Doo villains that become plot devices for the rest of the server - it is a challenge being set out so that characters that pride themselves on their nature have difficult decisions and inner challenges to take - these are the things that give characters true meaning/purpose and context to their RP and everyone playing a character in Arelith is on the same footing in wanting to provide rounded and interesting characters.

Can raids be too frequent? Of course and I'm sure it can be frustrating to log in on yet another day to be met with "someone else has been taken" - but we're all ultimately just looking for something to contribute to the server in a meaningful way and I'm sure that as this kind of RP progresses, there will be fine tuning of both frequency and quality of ideas. I have only been present at a handfull of raids, but from what I've seen they have been handled very well and often playing evil can feel like you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Ultimately everyone playing is human, not every situation will go exactly as intended, but the bottom line is from what I've seen the more evil bending characters want to RP with everyone, so don't be afraid to approach us OOC, or open those avenues IC - just don't expect us to roll over out of convenience.

One last kudos though to all of the captive characters I've interacted with in recent weeks, you've all been awesome, it's been great to RP with you all + when I'm in inevitably in a dungeon at some point in the future, I highly look forward to it.

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Re: Capture RP

Post by D4wN » Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:13 am

Drethian wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:16 am

Your feedback / comments

These are really good points. And in general I feel like the majority of the discontempt comes from the players/characters who are impacted by this the most. The people trying to save/free the captive, their friends, family etc. For them this is the most stressful and unfun part of RP since for them they have to sit back and watch helplessly as their friend gets tortured, humiliated etc.

I don't agree with people taking this out on their captive friend. But I also understand that when it's the 5th person captured that week it can get old real fast especially when ridiculously large sums of gold are just demanded over and over again and no one can do anything. Maybe moderation is the answer? I'm not sure. It goes in a way hand in hand with frequency of raids in my opinion. People get fatigued if they have to deal with raids every few days. Like Minto mentioned in his post, if you have to deal with a raid or capture all other RP stops and it is a major disruption and incredibly stressful experience for many people.

I have also heard a lot of good feedback about you guys from people who have been captives. I think perhaps the issue lies more with the surrounding players/characters a capture/raid impacts and perhaps herein lies the answer to try and have it be more enjoyable for everyone. Being the guy or girl who constantly gets asked to pay several million gold for the next person that week that has been captured just isn't a fun experience for them and I totally understand that too. Especially if then your character will suddenly be responsible for your friend's/ally's death, enslavement or torture. It becomes personal then.

I have been captured twice on Thomas in the 1.5 RL years I played him and although I enjoyed the second experience, I know that it was incredibly stressful for a lot of people around me. The first capture lead to a very unsatisfying experience for both me and the captors because rescue teams jumped in very quickly and the main captor receiving OOC pressure. So it just resulted in them ransoming him back and getting rid of Thomas without anything actually being done to him. The second one was a better experience, but the terms set for release were unreasonable and inflexible and I feel like more creative things could have been done throughout. I had so many ideas myself which I would have done had I still played a villain XD

I guess I'm just not sure what the magical formula is, but reading some of these comments I don't think the crux of the issue lies between the captive and captor. I think it lies with the people on the outside perhaps being impacted the most. So what's the answer? You can't not care, but you also have absolutely 0 control over the situation. So what do you do?

I do however still think moderation is key and fatigue is a genuine issue. Consideration should be given for this.

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Re: Capture RP

Post by magistrasa » Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:33 am

I have been sitting on some thoughts that I intend to turn into a whole stupid multiparagraph post again, but I'll keep this comment mercifully short for now:

I think the idea that you have "no control over the narrative" and are being "excluded from roleplay" are exactly the sentiment that needs to change. People who hold that sentiment need to challenge it within themselves. Your character being ill-positioned to rescue an ally does not mean they are being cut out of the story. They're simply experiencing the story from another side. A good roleplayer works with the tools and knowledge at their disposal. With the OOC understanding of your narrative limitations, you don't need to act like you have to just keep bashing your head against the wall in the same way over and over again. And if that's pretty much your only approach to this narrative thread, and it constantly leads to a stressful and uninteresting experience, aren't you the crazy one by not changing your tactics and expecting different result? It just strikes me as selfish to presume you have a right to "narrative control" in a scenario that clearly suggests your character should take a supporting role. You can always engage with the storyline, even when you can't always directly affect its outcome. I won't pretend it isn't a challenge to play out, but it's profoundly disappointing to see how little the server has evolved when it comes to handling these kinds of scenarios.

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Re: Capture RP

Post by somecritter » Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:16 am

D4wN wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:55 am
Ellisaria wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:27 am

My noble PC was stubborn and willful, but I tried to RP fatigue and weariness and observe the circumstances of her defeat even as she held her head high. Is that disrespecting the fact that she was dead? Is everyone expected to be meek and mild and just let the capture happen without protest? Maybe I did it wrong; I don't know. Someone else got involved soon thereafter, so my experience was cut short just when I was starting to get my feet beneath me. I did my best.

No. You don't have to RP being meek and feeble at all. You can be defiant even and act brave and courageous in the face of possible death, enslavement or torture.

Especially if your character is ready to face the consequences of those actions..


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Re: Capture RP

Post by Preserver » Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:37 am

Ellisaria wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:27 am

I will say that I had more fun with the capture RP than the chastising RP that awaited me when I returned. I realize that for many players, it's yawn another capture but for some of us, it's still shiny and new. Let us enjoy it, let us be terrified by it.

This is a particularly problematic issue in my mind: the fact that the level of mechanical awareness we (and our PCs, in a way) have removes most (if not all) chances of wonderment, concern, fear, or unknown. The yawn another capture issue exists because a number of individuals are unwilling (or unable; both sound pejorative but at times this is done in good faith) RPing the situation as being tense and dangerous.

"The captured person is most likely in a quarter in Andunor, we need a QB - call Bob, Bobbie, and Boberson, they're the best QBs. Okay we go as 10. If we act fast enough then we can get the captive out; what are they gonna do? Kill them?"

This is of course extreme exaggeration, but the rescuers know the world, know the mechanics, know how things work. This, I believe, leads to extremely boring roleplay for all sides, save for those into the Any%Speedrun meta of QBing and freeing people.
All perspectives should, I believe, instead embrace the world as more complex than what the experience we directly had taught us. Why? I don't know, because it's more fun, even if it makes the character look a tad less competent.

.oO Rescuers PoV Oo.


"The UD is a dangerous place of unknown horrors, we must be careful and we would do well to be scared."
OR
"The Sunlands are bright, full of danger, and the Sunlanders assemble fast. We may be overwhelmed, we must be careful."

Narratively, your rescuing effort has absolutely 0 worth if it was not hard to achieve, if there was no danger, either imagined or perceive. The more scared you RP to be before starting, the more the coolness factor of your character will be apparent (and of course, being scared doesn't mean trembling and whimpering, there can be a number of ways to convey it).

.oO Kidnappers PoV Oo.


"We've stirred the slumbering beast that the UD is, they may strike back at us simple because they've been irked."
OR
"The Surface pride has been chipped, they'll not let go of their precious fleshlings and risk shame amidst their peers."

As kidnappers, you've put effort into organizing a very bold action. Nothing of what you do should feel easy. If it feels mechanically easy, then bend your RP around the fact and build a narrative of effort around what you have done. This of course needs other collaborative RP, which leads too...

.oO The Rest of the World PoV Oo.


No examples this time.
People in the Hub, or in Cordor, or in Guldorand... they should never go "lol, we got them back in like 1h" or "teheh, you got Mary? It's like the tenth time we kidnap her" or "yawn, another kidnapping?" ...

In Arelith, 90% of the creatures that attempt to kill us are NPCs that stay there and have no agency. Instead, this is one of the times in which the creature actually came to our doorstep and stole someone precious from us. This is serious business, it should never been dismissed, it should never feel daily.
Is it the seventeeth kidnapping in two days? Rather than going "lol UDers should touch some grass", lament how this cruel campaign of guerrilla has been draining resources from your cities, your family, yourself. Is it boring to you OOC? I get it, it can happen; then keep the boredom in that realm but do not contribute in building an unfun narrative based on your perceived banality of what is going on.

-


In general, be ready to fake (or better, to interestingly RP) not knowing the world, the enemies, the rules. Because if the world stops being mysterious, if the enemies stop being scary, and if the rules stop being unclear, then everything becomes mundane, predictable, banal, and boring. And if that doesn't work because you have to RP a hyper-competent character, then give them one glaring weakness... but let it be a weakness in situations where they may be involved, otherwise it's just an irrelevant quirk.
Try and enjoy building a story in which your characters are heroic or dastardly not because they pierce that nice +52AB, but because they do actually heroic or dastardly stuff that could easily result in their death or the death of many others. When heroism becomes easy, it's no longer heroism.

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~ Elspeth Lynndain (Dead!) - Noasheel Xephrates (Dead!)
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Re: Capture RP

Post by Kuma » Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:30 am

magistrasa wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:33 am

Your character being ill-positioned to rescue an ally does not mean they are being cut out of the story. They're simply experiencing the story from another side. A good roleplayer works with the tools and knowledge at their disposal. With the OOC understanding of your narrative limitations, you don't need to act like you have to just keep bashing your head against the wall in the same way over and over again. And if that's pretty much your only approach to this narrative thread, and it constantly leads to a stressful and uninteresting experience, aren't you the crazy one by not changing your tactics and expecting different result? It just strikes me as selfish to presume you have a right to "narrative control" in a scenario that clearly suggests your character should take a supporting role. You can always engage with the storyline, even when you can't always directly affect its outcome. I won't pretend it isn't a challenge to play out, but it's profoundly disappointing to see how little the server has evolved when it comes to handling these kinds of scenarios.

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Re: Capture RP

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:36 am

somecritter wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:16 am

Especially if your character is ready to face the consequences of those actions..

So very much this. It's consequence that makes courage meaningful!


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Re: Capture RP

Post by Choofed » Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:35 pm

Drethian wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:16 am

is still is profitable to the captors

Most people are just sick to death of "We want 2 million gold for a corporal" which constitutes probably close 50 man hours of work just to enable someone who ran into a surface lag pit full of traps against 25 underdarkers with the people they found aroudn the fire pit.

This is honest feedback: You're asking rediculous sums, I don't have the time to hand away my progression and likely the entire government paychecks and events funds just to facilitate this.

Some people might say my position here is toxic, but it's my honest belief.


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Re: Capture RP

Post by magistrasa » Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:52 pm

I agree that flat gold sums as ransom are probably the least interesting solution a captor can offer. Obviously nothing stops the captive's allies from making a counter-offer of something else entirely, but demanding gold at the onset creates a certain tone around the entire plot thread. Something far more narratively compelling might be to ask for a valuable item that doesn't technically exist, and so that creates an opportunity for the allies to explore the creation or "discovery" of the item demanded, and further leads to speculation about what the nefarious villains could want with such a thing. This item can then be used for future antagonistic endeavors, which will carry much more weight as the victims will understand that they aided in the creation of this new threat. Alternatively, if slavery or servitude is on the table, a captor could suggest a swap: "We captured a warrior, which are far less profitable as a servant than a mage or a skilled tradesman. You'll get your friend/family/lover back, if you give us someone of equal or greater value instead. We'll get back to you once you take a week to think it over!" These sorts of immaterial exchanges help to create more long-lasting consequences for every side of the transaction, straining some relationships and deepening others. It also makes it seem like the captive's eventual release isn't based on some arbitrary contrivance that might otherwise potentially call into question the peril they claim to have faced.

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Re: Capture RP

Post by The First Vicar » Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:33 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:52 pm

I agree that flat gold sums as ransom are probably the least interesting solution a captor can offer. Obviously nothing stops the captive's allies from making a counter-offer of something else entirely, but demanding gold at the onset creates a certain tone around the entire plot thread. Something far more narratively compelling might be to ask for a valuable item that doesn't technically exist, and so that creates an opportunity for the allies to explore the creation or "discovery" of the item demanded, and further leads to speculation about what the nefarious villains could want with such a thing. This item can then be used for future antagonistic endeavors, which will carry much more weight as the victims will understand that they aided in the creation of this new threat. Alternatively, if slavery or servitude is on the table, a captor could suggest a swap: "We captured a warrior, which are far less profitable as a servant than a mage or a skilled tradesman. You'll get your friend/family/lover back, if you give us someone of equal or greater value instead. We'll get back to you once you take a week to think it over!" These sorts of immaterial exchanges help to create more long-lasting consequences for every side of the transaction, straining some relationships and deepening others. It also makes it seem like the captive's eventual release isn't based on some arbitrary contrivance that might otherwise potentially call into question the peril they claim to have faced.

I don't post on the fourms much, but am very active on the discord. Having been on both sides of this (Have been captured and made to fight my way out on a previous character, and are doing the capturing) here are my thoughts

Agreed completely with these statements. This is a roleplay server. All gold does, is set the tone and establish a base of what is at the least expected to be released at a bare minimum. (Not super hard to acquire anyways if you ask around or find a nice spot to grind) As stated above, there are numerous ways to appease the captors without gold. All you have to do is TRY to be creative. Like Magistrasa said though, maybe we will trade him for another, or make them fight for their freedom, or have them put to work to earn it, etc etc. Nothing has to be the final nail in the coffin when dealing with players. Being upset at those who did the capturing or have gotten captured (ooc hatred towards them or whatever BS was going around with that) is a bit excessive and not something the server needs going forwards. I dont care who you are, if you've got 20 dudes wanting to capture you, and you're alone and/or outnumbered, you're getting captured. So as far as that point is concerned, there should be no ooc haltered towards anyone because they got captured. It happens. I know you think you're the main character, but just hold tight cheef. Other people have stories to tell aswell as you.

On the other hand, those doing the capturing are just playing their Underdark, flesh-trading character as best they know how. Just because the Andunor is becoming somewhat unified, doesn't mean that the surface settlements shouldn't also be doing the same. In fact, they should do so. It drives a large narrative roleplay on a more grandeur scale than just sitting around in the dale asking each other how their days went for the 43rd time this weekend. It provides suspense and a sensible real threat that our characters live in a world in which characters use swords, and shields, and magic and armor to defend themselves, from more than just NPC's. If you are becoming oocly upset at this fact or are disrespecting others because they got captured, then you are probably the one who's making the problem for others ICly or OOCly. We're all here to have fun, and if you're not having fun, then log out. It's that simple. Stop being so invested in a character in a video game. It's not you, it's just a character. It may reflect you, but it's not YOU. If you're not having fun, then communicate "/tp john cordor : hey bro im not liking this, can we switch it up a little?"
I can guarantee you that if you said this to Drethian's character or anyone else on the opposing team, they would accommodate you, even ask you oocly what type of situation could help you out best to make your character shine best, while still respecting everyone else's lore as well.

Another topic I want to briefly touch on is the frequency of the raids: Raids are not done in large format like that, but once or twice a real life month, at least from the Andunorian group. There are a few factions in Andunor though. Most of us WANT a challenge and struggle, and quite honestly, to lose sometimes. It is not always fun to win 24/7 with little to no pushback or struggle. I am a type of person that enjoys struggle and challenges and learning more about 'what I did wrong and what can I learn from it to better prepare myself next time' but that's just me and not all people are like that, that's fine. Is there more than 1 person taken per raid? Usually, at least 1 or 2, which is only about 0.5% to 1% of the server at large.

Cutting this short, as I could repeat what others have said above over and over in different ways, but you get the point.

In closing, we're all here to have fun. If you're not having fun and others ( your 'team') are, then perhaps self introspection is needed. Perhaps sometimes we need to step back and re-examine the situation. Try some light ooc talk with the players, or even just try a new character. I know I've had to roll at least once or twice because I just got tired of my character and certain events showed me that it was time for him/her to go and let other characters take the stage.

Either way, everyone please have fun. That is the whole point of Arelith. To have fun.


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