Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

[Amateur Hour]

Perhaps a bit of a lighter-weight take on the core point:

It sort of boggles my mind when we have military leaders on one side of the Surface/UD conflict who keep dying/losing and yet they're still trusted with power. Maybe people don't have to stay dead, but perhaps they should be resigning from the military part of the job if this ends up being a consistent pattern.

If you're referring to Urshak's latest defeat, then you don't have much of an idea of how many times he's defeated underdarkers before. One defeat doesn't break a military leader. "Keeps dying/losing"? What about the multiple wins they had in the past? We just going to erase all of those? Ask your questions IC, as for why he's still in power. Don't need to wonder about that kind of things.

It is not, in fact, in relation to Urshak (I honestly don't know what incident you're referring to). It is in relation to a consistent pattern of leaders staying in power after they make bad choice after bad choice that has negative impacts on people they are responsible for. It's not just settlement leaders either, but various combat-oriented factions that have had this issue. There is a story to be told through acknowledging failure, taking a step back, and working to improve oneself before trying again at leadership, and it's a story that doesn't get told nearly often enough.

[Deep Fried Thinking Emoji]

Imo, there's no such a thing as an endgame in the server.

Once you are done with the tedium of leveling to 30 and gearing you can dedicate all your time to involve yourself with the world without being relegated to a mere spectator.

Not saying that RP starts at 30, that's a meme, but being level 30 absolutely gives you more agency on how to interact with the situations the server throws at you. This involves not only RP with your fellow players but DM events too. In my time on the server I haven't seen a DM event where low level PCs could interact with the content besides by dying to it.

If someone can't find things to do once they have finished leveling they really need to rethink the way they are engaging with the server. Just think of something that sounds fun to you and start roleplaying around it, it really is that easy.

[Royal Blood]

I agree with these sentiments about roleplay but I think the module could do more to give players the opportunity to role play. Some quick examples,

1: The sailing system is super cool. As is the map pieces. It's a little hard imo to find time to pursue this system but I think it's very good for the people who can devote time to it. Basically, you have to collect map pieces then sail to a destination and the rewards can be pretty cool.

I think a system of exploration like that, and expanding in that concept, could be really interesting.

2: tying into 1 the rewards for dungeons being more unique. Items that could facilitate role play better. Maybe a time of ancient spells or a unique armor that makes fresh bread. Idk! But make the rewards something unique not just end game materials like adamantine or whatever

I think creatively there could be rewards made that are very cool narrative pieces that help promote and elevate stories.

3: Dungeon construction. Dungeons are kind of bland, in my opinion. Bosses are fooled by darkness. Everything is so easy. If there's going to be cool narrative lore pieces it would be nice to make the dungeon engaging.

I think for end game dungeons the goal isn't XP. It's the challenge and then the reward for whatever that is. I could see dungeons that maybe have side quests in them to like progress and make it more of an experience? Or even bosses that do something more than like get confused by darkness.

I made a boss for one server that stomps around and when in combat, on times intervals, it did an emote. The boss was very slow but when the emote began it then did a big high damage AOE spell so you had to get away from it.

Conclusion: Just some quick thoughts. But I think end game content could help give players more narrative tools and opportunities to expand their character. I am allllll for characters creating their own stories and what not and I DO think players contribute to this problem themselves but, I also think expanded end game stuff could be very satisfying and narratively rich.

[Morgy]

Perhaps a bit of a lighter-weight take on the core point:

It sort of boggles my mind when we have military leaders on one side of the Surface/UD conflict who keep dying/losing and yet they're still trusted with power. Maybe people don't have to stay dead, but perhaps they should be resigning from the military part of the job if this ends up being a consistent pattern.

If you're referring to Urshak's latest defeat, then you don't have much of an idea of how many times he's defeated underdarkers before. One defeat doesn't break a military leader. "Keeps dying/losing"? What about the multiple wins they had in the past? We just going to erase all of those? Ask your questions IC, as for why he's still in power. Don't need to wonder about that kind of things.

It is not, in fact, in relation to Urshak (I honestly don't know what incident you're referring to). It is in relation to a consistent pattern of leaders staying in power after they make bad choice after bad choice that has negative impacts on people they are responsible for. It's not just settlement leaders either, but various combat-oriented factions that have had this issue. There is a story to be told through acknowledging failure, taking a step back, and working to improve oneself before trying again at leadership, and it's a story that doesn't get told nearly often enough.

It's a legit angle for leaders to hold onto power, and if they don't step down when your PC thinks they should, then perhaps push for them to be removed IC. That's as, if not more, interesting than stepping back quietly to reflect on failure for narrative purposes.

[Xerah]

Not everyone is going to be willing to create a story. Our experiences might be different, of course, but my past attempts to do so often end with bad vibes all around. This is assuming the other party even wants to try of course. Generally, no one wants to lose or risk their positions/social standing. Why would they? It's far too easy to get pariah and Exiled for the mere whiff of breaking the status quo. Why even risk a daring RP story? This, of course, is only taking into account Players that reach out to other players they are not friends with. I have seen many a great RP played out within OOC friend groups. Why? Because they trust each other for the IG actions not to bleed into the OOC and lead to RL years of grudge between social circles.

Having a hard system removes a lot of that risk and drama because the blame and fault can be laid at the feet of the system rather than our own. If that makes sense?

No, it really doesn't, I'm sorry.

The most memorable characters are the ones that make things happen. That doesn't mean server changing events, but for some examples off the top of my head that actually happened:

• Spending the time to roleplay out their PM changes (I will say that this is a lot harder with the ultra quick leveling)

• Creating some past trauma that leads to doing some kind of "dream RP" trying to help out

• Having your character missing something and needing to gather people to research and find it

• Having your character want to create/build something new (this does not have to require module changes)

I could go on but you get the idea.

The characters that exist and never do anything out of fear of things changing are not memorable or the goal of the server. Imagine reading a book where nothing happens. You make these risks because they are interesting in a story.

[Edens_Fall]

Not everyone is going to be willing to create a story. Our experiences might be different, of course, but my past attempts to do so often end with bad vibes all around. This is assuming the other party even wants to try of course. Generally, no one wants to lose or risk their positions/social standing. Why would they? It's far too easy to get pariah and Exiled for the mere whiff of breaking the status quo. Why even risk a daring RP story? This, of course, is only taking into account Players that reach out to other players they are not friends with. I have seen many a great RP played out within OOC friend groups. Why? Because they trust each other for the IG actions not to bleed into the OOC and lead to RL years of grudge between social circles.

Having a hard system removes a lot of that risk and drama because the blame and fault can be laid at the feet of the system rather than our own. If that makes sense?

No, it really doesn't, I'm sorry.

The most memorable characters are the ones that make things happen. That doesn't mean server changing events, but for some examples off the top of my head that actually happened:

• Spending the time to roleplay out their PM changes (I will say that this is a lot harder with the ultra quick leveling)

• Creating some past trauma that leads to doing some kind of "dream RP" trying to help out

• Having your character missing something and needing to gather people to research and find it

• Having your character want to create/build something new (this does not have to require module changes)

I could go on but you get the idea.

The characters that exist and never do anything out of fear of things changing are not memorable or the goal of the server. Imagine reading a book where nothing happens. You make these risks because they are interesting in a story.

Oh, those examples do make sense and are enjoyable (I've done a few myself over the years), but also easy to do as few are involved, and those that are can be limited to the same Good/Evil camp. What I refer to is the larger attempts at storytelling. If you prefer an example, I attempted some time ago to provide a Paladin and their group with a simple choice. That of working with a lesser evil to stop a greater one or to stay true to their oath and not aid the lesser evil, which would then result in the greater evil attacking Bendir. We had multiple meetings, back-and-forth debates of spiritual truths, and several other great interactions over months of RL. All these were done between the parties involved. The climax of all this effort ended with a fun event at Stonehold, and through the act of picking to aid the lesser of two evils, Bendir was saved, and the Gate Keeper of Stonehold was slain. The end result? The player of the paladin who walked the RP Story path of Mortality was hunted and attacked by groups never directly involved until they rolled and stopped playing. I ended up shelving my own PC after a time as well.

Sure, we can just point fingers at Players and demand people do better and be more inclusive, but that's not fair either. People are People. There will always be those that bend over backward to spin a good tale, and there will be those who horde and gatekeep their corners of the server to the exclusion of all others. Why not level the field and allow the system to provide the baseline, the bare minimum required, from which we can work? If one wants to go above and beyond that level, great! But if not, then we at least have a standard.

I admit, I'm a bit curious how you pulled off your grand plot in Cordor with the Scry Spy system that is now in place as Chancellor Katernin Bersk. Did you reach out to players you never dealt with, or was it done between those whom you trusted to RP with from past experience? That or did you reach out at all? Instead, trusting the Settlement system to enforce your goals and desires upon the city through Exiles and the use of the PC guard force? I will admit to being terribly curious.

In the end, both have a place I feel, and as we currently have a great team of Dev to draw upon, let us improve things rather than repeat the same affairs each year on the forums with each new generation of players.

EDIT: For Spelling of course.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I just have two things.

1) a more microscopic look at the current state of pvp. Most of the pvp talent is down in the underdark. The same was true in the past but in reverse, where most of the talent in Cordor. Birds of a feather flock together and all that, and while you hope there would be an even divide from time to time, I doubt it ever will happen. People like winning, and when you got all the skills on your team you will always win.

2) In more of a macro view, honestly, it's hard to give good advice without understanding what the actual vision is. I Read Irongrons post, and I can't help but think either I am completely misreading what the server owner wants out of his server, or even he can't get his arms around the problem and it's spiraling out of control. I can see why too, from player to player, dm to dm, you get a different perspective each and every time about the little nuances of the game.

Now, it's not all doom and gloom. This thread gives me hope because i see a lot of folks saying the same things I was warning about 2 and 3 years ago, which means people actually at least get it now. It's probably even more complex to fix at this point, as the pvp borg has spread quite thoroughly, but this is where we are now and that's all that matters. And I do think there are a lot of smart people involved in this server on both the player and admin side that can sort through this.

But I truly do believe that the first step needs to be Irongron and his big dogs on the team (admins, department leads, ect) sitting down and getting on the same page about what the vision is in regards to mixing playstyles, pvp rules, what is wanted out of alternative end game content, ect. Once you guys get to that point and lay it on everyone else, you will find that all the smarties in the community have plenty of solid ideas to bring that vision to life.

As it stands now though, any advice you get from me or anyone else is going to be heavily slanted toward what that inviduals vision is. In other words, save for a random rare gem here and there its all useless.

[magistrasa]

Having some new "end game" time sink could certainly improve the feel of the server, but it could just as easily do nothing to improve its quality of roleplay. Reason being, good roleplay doesn't happen without purposeful effort on the part of the players. When you get right down to it, if you aren't having fun at level 30, it's ultimately because you're not trying hard enough to make fun things happen. Automating some system that will cost players time and gold indefinitely forever as a way to burn through some of that unspent energy isn't the solution you think it is. "People are People," sure, but there's no replacement for the fact that it's an issue that needs to be solved through individual initiative and can't be scripted away. The reason why we keep having this conversation time after time is because after all these years, some people still stubbornly refuse to learn the value of personal responsibility. Mechanical changes won't suddenly make your bland and directionless character concept interesting. It's not the game's fault that you stopped having fun at level 30; it's yours.

I won't pretend to know the ins and outs of the Bersk storyline, but I feel pretty confident in my assumption that the implementation of the scry network in Cordor was never the objective. These things always start with a simple concept: "What if Cordor had its own NSA?" Then you just gradually build a story off the idea, pull in people along the way who are interested in that same concept, and eventually you'll find that you've built something so demonstrably brilliant that everyone drawn in by its gravity wants to be involved in it, and that simple idea has grown into something completely different and unique that has been endowed with new life by the community that has been meaningfully affected by it. "Changing the module" should never be the objective unto itself. Instead, the goal should always be to present a compelling narrative to your fellow players. Challenge, intrigue, and engage with the people around you - not with the code of the game.

It's also worth noting, "fun things" don't have to take the place of some large scale dozen+ people event. In fact, in my experience, the more people directly involved in an event, the less fun it becomes for everyone involved. Just do stuff that you think sounds cool. If people join in, great. If not, well, assume you're a transcendental being who can't be understood by the masses because you're just that much cooler than everyone else. I'm sorry to call you out here, Eden, but claiming the pursuit of narrative is somehow insufficient as an end-game activity because it doesn't mandate the involvement of enough of the server just sounds extremely silly to me.

[Xerah]

I admit, I'm a bit curious how you pulled off your grand plot in Cordor with the Scry Spy system that is now in place as Chancellor Katernin Bersk. Did you reach out to players you never dealt with, or was it done between those whom you trusted to RP with from past experience? That or did you reach out at all? Instead, trusting the Settlement system to enforce your goals and desires upon the city through Exiles and the use of the PC guard force? I will admit to being terribly curious.

TLDR: It was more so people I've never dealt with sprinkled with some others I knew but I used them because it made more IC sense than just knowing OOCly who they were.

The character was originally created with the intent of playing an evil Savras follower who was interested in true naming through divination. That idea kind of fell through a bit (which happens a lot with my character) and parked her for a few months before coming back to fresh ideas. After coming back and playing around for a while, I had the idea of doing this kind of magocracy style leadership thing (kind of something like Kuma did when I first joined the server and his character was Chancellor). I spoke to a certain Banite cleric who let me know that I'd have the support of the Banites behind me (which were a lot at this time) and ran for Chancellor. Ropes and I had played together before, but this wasn't any kind of OOC agreement ahead of time.

I won the election, with the help of the Banites (though no one knew this at the time) and held a meeting for everyone that day. During that meeting, I asked if anyone was interested in helping out. A number of people came forward who I had never spoken to IC or OOC and I just started promoting them with hopes for the best. Any time anyone asked to be part of it, I let them in (though I didn't officially let them in the Banite Cleric until _two months later). I didn't care if I knew OOCly they were harpers/agents/do-good-ers though I did exile "all" harpers, which were two characters who were kinda known to be harpers as the main fall people in order to provide legitimacy because I really wanted to create this pseudo "France resistance WW2" style atmosphere in Cordor for the good guys (who did do some really cool things, like writing a book about resistance and such).

Ropes also put me in contact with Kuma's character (Dimitrios) at the time (who I had not talked to ICly and I didn't know Kuma OOCly) who I got to "create" the network (he was a follower of Gond) and put them around the city as things for people to target (though it did get overwhelming how many of them were stolen and destroyed). Kuma's character was very close to a paladin so it was an interesting thing to wonder when he was gonna slip up and let her in.

I also got Bat Country (ICly, as a player!) involved because I wanted to legitimize her "seeing" ability plus I wanted to get the UD involved in some ways if I could. So, Katernin talked about seeing an attack something and I organized the UD to provide that attack.

Aside from those three, it was really the rest of the council who were the day to day helpers which included Peram Flint, "Ardent", and even Mather Allias (one of the good guys working from within) and probably others. I have no idea if the first two even still play here.

One thing I didn't do was give anyone else settlement bank access or warehouse access. Those are the two ways that you can force an election and they are super lame way to end a story (though I won all 3 elections she ran).

I never set out with the intent of changing the module (I wasn't even active when it was perma added) and I had no idea how much steam it would gather along the way as magistrasa mentioned.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

If I could figure out how to get a fixture into the starting area, it would be a statue of Red Ropes. Sorry, I know thats off topic but reading your post reminded me of how great of a player he was, always generous with his time with others.

Good call on getting Bat in on your thing, that's your legacy right there.

[AskRyze]

Let’s start with the charitable response.

What sort of thing would you invistion End Game content to look like? What kind of thing do you think would be good?

Keep in mind a few things.
A) there needs to be some sort of award for 'end game content' but at the same time, we need to be wary of too much power creep.
B) Whilst I'm all for some version of mega dungeon/more sailing/ect - I think that more chill, solo-active things - (e.g. fishing, language learning) are good too.

Genuinly curious as to see some ideas here.

So let’s start with my goals in answering this question.

1: Avoid power creep while still providing some meaningful, tangible reward
2: Provide content that individual players can actively contribute toward in their idle time without necessarily requiring high intensity or rapt attention

Straightforward enough, but I will add a few more components to the design philosophy

3: The task must be, in some way, Sisyphean. Consistent upkeep > snowballing reward, inconsistent upkeep > lesser reward. This drives engagement with the system.
4: The task must be compatible with both group play and solo play on some level.
5: The task must drive conflict while not necessitating conflict. This gives PVP hounds a rabbit that they are permitted if not encouraged to chase without feeling like they are ruining someone’s day by doing so.

Now that I’ve set forth my own ground rules, this is the sort of thing that comes to mind:

Expand upon the settlement system. No, I’m being serious.

Players now have the ability to deliver regular parcels to and from settlements, by foot, using some permutation of the warded package system we have already implemented into delivery writs. Doing so rewards both the sending and receiving settlement with Trade Goods. Trade goods can be spent by settlement leaders for the purpose of beautifying their settlements with cosmetic changes - possibly by expanding fixture limits in certain areas for a duration, possibly by spending trade goods to create new, semi-permanent fixtures in the area that degrade over time if not maintained. This allows players who interact with the system to take an old, dying settlement and see it flourish under their careful hand - assuming they continue to maintain it, that is, for a settlement that isn’t upkept will slowly wither to utter dinginess.

Players who participate in the system will be rewarded as we reward them now for pursuing delivery writs - upfront XP and gold, and a larger amount of adventure XP. In addition, consider also granting them some manner of metacurrency that can be spent on cosmetic features - possibly weapon effects? - that needs some amount of upkeep in order to drive long term investment into the system and keep it from just being another same old “Everyone who’s anyone eventually has a ghost parrot if you play long enough”.

Here’s where it gets spicy: Cities generate shipments only so often. Players can influence this in two ways: firstly, players can harvest raw materials, be it meat, cotton, granite, wood, etc., and turn them in at an NPC in order to reduce the amount of time required between shipments (And be rewarded accordingly, per settlement buy rates); secondly, players can accept privateering contracts from their settlement to attack parcel carriers, intercepting their shipments and claiming them for their settlement instead. This may perhaps also interface with the rumored crime system that I’ve been hearing whispers about.

Now I’m no game designer, but I feel like that general idea accomplishes what we have laid out as objectives.
1: The concept avoids power creep by not introducing any new mechanical power into the economy, focusing on cosmetic and narrative-driven rewards.
2: Players can contribute toward parcel stockpiles by collecting raw resources, thereby allowing players to contribute in a low-intensity, low-conflict method
3: The rewards from the task inherently degrade over time, thereby making it not just another thing that people dump their time into once and then ignore for the rest of their time playing that character (Read: gearing).
4: Players can opt to take circuitous routes and use stealth to evade interception, or travel in small parties to ensure a safe delivery. Shipments happen regularly enough that players are incentivized against forming 30+ man doomstacks to deliver a singular parcel, but the reward - and threat - is sufficient that groups of four to six are encouraged if you’re going to take the most direct trade routes. Individual players, in addition to parcel running, can contribute via resource gathering. Furthermore, the task is driven by entire settlements across all time zones, inherently drawing upon a player’s faction identity toward the settlement their characters represent and engaging that settlement’s community as a whole. Thereby, the task engages multiple different levels and sizes of play group, and can be contributed to from level 1 to level 30.
5: The task gives players a valid means of conflict - privateering contracts - without necessarily requiring conflict to function as intended.

Do I think this is the perfect solution? No. But I would be thrilled to bits if something like this were to be implemented into the game.

Now, for the less charitable reply.

It's really sad that your list doesn't include any kind of roleplaying creating a story. I can't imagine why people play here when they have this kind of mindset; it's no wonder things seems so dull. You're a character. Tell a story. Create a problem. Work with others. It's not all about mechanical systems.

Firstly, I’d like to point toward the first two points on my list as being…well, foremost, a bit coarse and jocular, but also, quite literally, roleplaying. The second one even has roleplay in the text of the list item. But, I digress.

I’m going to preface everything below with one thing: I’m diagnosed with a relatively significant social disability, that being a substantial dose of Autism Spectrum Disorder. I never figured out the social butterfly thing, both IRL and in game. I literally don’t know how people just… Walk up to people and talk to them. I don’t know how they can conceive of doing so. What do they even talk about? They don't know that person or their interests. It’s... just foreign to me.

So… take what I’m saying hereafter with a grain of salt.

In regards to what you said, I absolutely agree. It’s not all about mechanical systems. You’re a character, telling a story, creating a problem, working with others. And that works. Until it doesn’t work.

You are a character, and so is everyone else. You tell a story, and everyone else also has a story that they care a lot more about than yours. You create a problem, and other players treat you as the source of the problem - and they are certainly willing to use mechanical tools to remove you, the problem, from their world for 48 hours. You can work with other people, certainly, assuming you have the tools to do so, but if you’re working with them you’re probably working toward a goal that is, in some way, shape, or form, focused on solving a problem driven by a mechanical system.

I know it may not be hard for you to penetrate into certain social circles, to get people to care about what you’re doing and who your character is. I’m pretty sure people know you pretty well, and they will at least recognize your writing style if not your character. You’re a relatively big deal and I understand that you have a lot of friends here and it is very easy for you to fill your days with mirth and joy. I envy you. I have never been able to penetrate deeply into the tightly-knit social circles that dot the landscape of this server. I know I don’t have the same social capacity as most people, but I do deeply enjoy the game to what extent I can. Unfortunately, for those of us not blessed with the glibness of the fey, that leaves level 30 a lot more lonely than you think.

That said,

Everything you just said

Coming from someone who needs a literal instruction manual on how to interact with other human beings… Thank you, for providing me with an instruction manual on how to interact with other human beings. This post has been moved to a google doc and added to my bookmarks toolbar. I will try these strategies and let you know how that works out, because that sounds like a lot of fun if it works, and I believe you wouldn’t suggest these strategies if they didn’t. So... Thank you.

[magistrasa]

Expand upon the settlement system. No, I’m being serious.

Players now have the ability to deliver regular parcels to and from settlements, by foot, using some permutation of the warded package system we have already implemented into delivery writs.

Whenever any idea involving some cross-settlement delivery system comes up, the fact that the UD settlements are literally three transitions away from each other always gets left out of the pitch. And considering the UD contains the most concentrated playerbase that's arguably given the least to do on the server, any serverwide system that leaves this critical demographic out of its consideration is bound to fall flat. Because the only thing it gives UDers to do is... another reason to raid the surface, to mess with the people stuck walking warded packages back and forth through the wilderness. Given the discourse surrounding the present surge in surface raids, I'm not sure that's exactly going to lead to quality roleplay, or engender positive and healthy interactions between raider and victim when now they're losing something tangible in the encounter. Conversely, the UD would never be under that same threat, which would just make the whole system tedious and uninteresting (just like delivery writs already are) and I can't imagine most people would want to opt into it, even with the promise of rewards. If a game mechanic isn't fun, then it's just a chore. It misses the point of what games are supposed to be.

Also, I just want to comment on this aside really quick, because it contains an attitude that makes me kinda sad:

I know it may not be hard for you to penetrate into certain social circles, to get people to care about what you’re doing and who your character is. I’m pretty sure people know you pretty well, and they will at least recognize your writing style if not your character. You’re a relatively big deal and I understand that you have a lot of friends here and it is very easy for you to fill your days with mirth and joy. I envy you. I have never been able to penetrate deeply into the tightly-knit social circles that dot the landscape of this server.

It's actually very difficult, even for the most well-liked members of the community, to create a character that people are interested in (or that you're interested in yourself). Out of the 20 or so characters I've tried out on the server, only about 3 or 4 have ever had the social connections that might qualify them as recognizable or influential. I've had my current character for about 3-ish months now and they have approximately 3 people and 0 factions they regularly interact with. An interesting habit develops among the more prominent members of the community where they (we?) mask their identity in-game and avoid letting their current characters be known because they have learned that people will go out of their way to contrive shallow interactions solely because they have a rainbow name on the forums and it's somehow assumed that makes them more important and interesting than everyone else. And that's usually a detraction from the experience, not a compliment to the narrative you want to pursue. Knowing as many people as possible and wielding enough influence to get people to do what you want isn't the point of the game. So, for your own sake, don't envy something that isn't always exactly a benefit to the experience - the grass might be greener on the other side, but don't forget that lawn care and landscaping require a huge investment in time and energy.

In my experience, the characters with the most friends and the most staying power are the ones that enable people to tell their own stories and intentionally compliment the narratives of others. Because you're right: People care more about their own stories than they do about yours. So when you go out of your way to help them tell that story, it turns out they really appreciate that. It's no coincidence that all my most "successful" roleplay concepts have fallen into that "therapist" archetype at some point in their character arc.

[Rei_Jin]

Hey AskRyze, I know this is an aside from the thread, but if you want somewhere to hang out with folks who are chill, come roll up a kobold and join Shadowclaw.

I'm the leader, and I have Aspergers, and we're all weird overgrown lizards here, with our own bizarre traits and behaviours, and it's one big happy dysfunctional tribe.

[Ad Astra]

Hello, everyone. Victor Green here. Local serial killer, madman, Abyssalist psychopath, and spreader of suffering

Offhand I think that paying attention to specific pvp deaths in mass battles actually only corrupts my roleplay. I tend to pretend I encountered legions of footmen as the OP may be suggesting, as opposed to a series of extremely specific names for me to go, "Hah, I killed you, stupid! Haha you're stupid because you died!" -Classic Underdarker line.

Just the other day, I saw a wisp on my alt go to a Surfacer post death, post raid. This was extremely meh. I didn't like that at all. They ignored death on the Underdark side and treated the Cordor raid like a moment in time and like all the murders didn't mean anything. It isn't okay to assume people will come back. At all. Do not do this. It's against the Snuggle a Bugbear server rules. (I sure hope I get auto snuggly censored.)

I had been thinking about this for a while. And I refuse to massive group raid on Victor Green after my 9 day break from him. Because,

I cam only really repeat what I've stated many times before - that while it can certainly be enjoyable NwN (and indeed D&D) is not designed as a PvP fantasy battle game, and is instead geared towards small party vs monsters.

Just by having PvP on Arelith we've had to make hundreds, if not thousands of changes to core mechanics just to level the playing field. This comes at a high price.

If anything if I'd like to move away from this perception that PvP is the 'end game' of Arelith, especially mass PvP, which is where, despite all of our efforts, the game really breaks down.

I'm regard to encouraging players to move on. I think we've gone much too far in the other direction. Levelling is now so swift that many characters have a lifespan of just a few weeks on the server. My current has just turned 21, and I've had something like...3 brief interactions so far.

I agree with Irongron 100%.

These raids have been completely unattractive to me, with size, uncoordinated beginnings to fights as completely uncontrolled rat summons interrupt conversation, attacking mid typing while the leaders of the two groups are exchanging biting remarks.

12 people is probably more than enough to cause the sorts of untold suffering a properly focused, calculated group can accomplish, and furthermore, actually provide focused interactions and activities, and giving real faces to remember them by because they aren't a massive horde.

The complete absence of my opportunities to actually do all the suffering roleplay I want to spread has ultimately led me to decide to make the declaration on Victor, "All these massive group raids do nothing to achieve my many goals."

I want personal roleplay. I want suffering that is remembered to be spread. I want to revive people and let one or two of them walk away with a story to tell, and a scar to keep either mentally, or spiritually.

And this isn't it.

This has scant created any roleplay storylines. There was an interesting conflict, born of a disagreement on a raid. And, I personally took the liberty of stealing fixtures to actually do something that would be remembered by. Furthermore, although greatly delayed due to stalls, I found out the owner of one of those fixtures was looking for it. And I'm sending them an IC letter, offering a challenge of sorts to try and steal more art, though I am trying to also arrange things to where I can then let them win back the piece I stole originally, hoping to first claim a replacement piece so that I can feel evil and triumphant while also restoring their fixture to them.

These are the things that could and should be happening more but are not being attempted even.

And so. As a villain, I will not be on these raids. There is no purpose to them. They do not leave lasting impressions, impacts, or achieve any goals. There is no calculation, planning, or focused groups involved. The whole Legion is too many. The whole Legion plus everyone else is ridiculous. There has to be real good faith put into the roleplay with the Surface, as an Underdarker.

I don't care how many times you've been one lined and bashed by a Surfacer. Get the Snuggle a Bugbear over it. Nothing has ever given you the right to not report it, and try and "return the favor." Anyone who has ever thought or acted like this is not a roleplayer. They are providing a derisive, OOC DRIVEN, UNWELCOME, CLEARLY EMOTIONAL element to the roleplay and I'm quite sick of it.

Seperate ooc from ic.

Try more to give people roleplay.

Have an actual reason and goal point in your raids.

The Iron Order of Elven Death literally accomplished this constanly. Refusing to do so is a failure on your part to be involved in this community.

Also, literally everyone is ransomed for gold. what's the actual point of this? seriously, I don't get that. I've seen two characters ever actually get scarred for their time down in the UD in the whole time I have played my character.

Two.

That's deeply, deeply disappointing.

The players are not delivering when they could be doing so much more, and many of the ones who could be doing more presently hoard and consolidate power behind closed doors, attempting to steal characters and prevent them from joining other groups and weakening the rest of the server by way of nonviolence, noninvolvment, locked behind quarter doors. I am constantly disappointed by this, especially when I can only name one member of the group who has ever actually openly interacted with the city at large in the whole time I have been playing this character. (Correction, two members.)

Anyway, that's my two cents. Victor Green, signing off. I'll see you all later, because I'm scrying all of you and I can guarantee you, I'm checking my list twice.

[AskRyze]

Hey AskRyze, I know this is an aside from the thread, but if you want somewhere to hang out with folks who are chill, come roll up a kobold and join Shadowclaw.

I'm the leader, and I have Aspergers, and we're all weird overgrown lizards here, with our own bizarre traits and behaviours, and it's one big happy dysfunctional tribe.

I do about once a year. It's good fun. ^_ i'm waiting for the muling script to wear off before I make the next one, you know how the little lizards touch all the bags and I don't want to dump all the chests out onto the floor when committing INDUSTRY

[In Sorrow We Trust]

stuff

good post. absolutely great. I think you summarized my thoughts pretty well too.

[Takes]

stuff

This is good stuff.

I posted in another thread about my experience. I wanted to note in this thread, though that it has been three nights in a row with three different UD groups demanding slavery of the same character. I am all for story and conflict, but it is hard to do anything else.

Just being honest here, it makes it hard to want to log in when it feels like that is the only story that can be told.

I really don't know how to engage with it in a healthy way. I am struggling.

[Asleeponthemoon]

Just being honest here, it makes it hard to want to log in when it feels like that is the only story that can be told.

I really don't know how to engage with it in a healthy way. I am struggling.

I want to find you and treat you to a good experience so bad right now. I heavily suggest PMing concerns to the DM team when you experience something that makes you uncomfortable or dissuaded to play.

...

I've gone on very few raids. My character attended some because she knew that she would be allowed to "learn from" and engage the prisoners, and this was a very important detail to her. As a player this was the big part to me, and the only reason I ever consider when a raid is announced. I'm obviously not able to be involved in every conflict, but my running goal continues to be: associated parties should be able to take something positive away from their experience.

I agree with Ad Astra, Old Lies Die Harder, Xerah and others on several very strong takeaways, and nothing needs repeating. Instead, I'd like to add on from what I've had the grace to be a part of. Maybe it will help give constructive inspiration for others.

Also, literally everyone is ransomed for gold. what's the actual point of this? seriously, I don't get that.

Gold's great and a good IC reason (evil is greedy) for a ransom, but it's fun to consider alternatives. If you have a willing prisoner who does not want to be a slave, why not take initiative and think outside of the box instead of playing "Slave, Pay, or Die"?

• Set them loose as a spy in exchange for their freedom

• Make them teach their languages to their enemies

• Entice them to bring you something that you can't normally get

• Challenge them to fight for their freedom in front of their allies and enemies alike

• Force them to assist with some obscure ritual, or provide services to help one of your friends

• Stick with the gold, but agree to lower the ransom in exchange for favors/deeds completed

• Have them agree to come to the Underdark for an honorable, one-on-one duel when their training is over

• Learn what makes them tick and threaten whatever they hold dear if they don't keep their end of the bargain

• Let a survivor drag their friends back to civilization with an ominous warning

I have found that when I trust others and work with them to create a story, it goes much smoother and is more interesting for both parties. Take criticism, consider your fellow player, and be perceptive and receptive. Not everyone's going to be happy, but it doesn't hurt to try.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

It is a good post, and I think it's important to hear from a bad guy with this perspective. The most important bit however is this-

I don't care how many times you've been one lined and bashed by a Surfacer. Get the Snuggle a Bugbear over it. Nothing has ever given you the right to not report it, and try and "return the favor." Anyone who has ever thought or acted like this is not a roleplayer. They are providing a derisive, OOC DRIVEN, UNWELCOME, CLEARLY EMOTIONAL element to the roleplay and I'm quite sick of it.

Seperate ooc from ic.

I feel like players enacting justice on other players is just part of Arelith's culture at this point, and it goes pretty high up the chain.

The best example I can give of what I mean is when two years ago I suggested (feedbacked?) certain areas like cities, and sencliff, requiring a dm for obvious opposition to go in and pvp. The response I got, from an administrator no less, was that this would allow people to play poke the bear and then run back to the safe space. By allowing the players to go into sencliff to get them or whatever, you stop that. I didn't get why just reporting the player who was playing poke the bear was not the easy and clear answer at that point, but I was outnumbered by far so I dropped it.

Now, maybe this sort of thing worked 7- 10 years ago, when the player base was mostly people who had played arelith exclusively for a long time, and there was a natural order to things. But around 5 or 6 years ago now, about a year or so before EE, Arelith's player base doubled, or at least came close to that. And the lesson many of us learned, some through quiet experience and others like me through trial and error pointing out stuff like this on the forums, is that nothing- Not the server owner or his admins/dms, nor the sanctity of the setting- trumps might when it comes to right. And since a lot of those new players were not new to the game, they came with the skills to play that way too.

What we see now is Frankenstein's monster created by the unwillingness for whatever reason to sort this out early on. I'm not someone who really wants to get into a lot of pvp, but since I'm playing an elf I have been trying to get my gear set to the point where I can since they need capable fighters, and I can't even do that for fear of running into drow in the surface dungeons after it happened two days in a row. It's really gotten that ridiculous.

Now I know it may sound harsh to lay this all at the feet of the team behind arelith, and I've honestly avoided doing that before because it is in some ways unfair to blame a loosely coordinated group of volunteers for not doing the work to straighten the ship. I also genuinely like most of them as people. But this comes up once or twice a year, and in spite of all well written posts about how it could be better it just continuously seems to get worse.

Something has to change, and since I am powerless to make any of the necessary changes myself, my only options are to plead with the folks who do have the power to do something or just give up.

[Amateur Hour]

• Set them loose as a spy in exchange for their freedom

• Make them teach their languages to their enemies

• Entice them to bring you something that you can't normally get

• Challenge them to fight for their freedom in front of their allies and enemies alike

• Force them to assist with some obscure ritual, or provide services to help one of your friends

• Stick with the gold, but agree to lower the ransom in exchange for favors/deeds completed

• Have them agree to come to the Underdark for an honorable, one-on-one duel when their training is over

• Learn what makes them tick and threaten whatever they hold dear if they don't keep their end of the bargain

• Let a survivor drag their friends back to civilization with an ominous warning

One of my favorite memories of my second character was being taken hostage in exchange for a safe getaway. Hostages can be traded for more than gold!

[rspwn]

I do agree some changes would be very good. I do feel it's been quite awhile since anything different in regards to this conversation has been tampered with. To this I would say. It's okay to get things wrong, it's okay to experiment and it's okay to revert certain changes. I had no idea that this topic would've been as popular as it has become. Clearly people are very passionate about it. As I said before there's many good arguments and suggestions for what could be done. It's upto the Arelith team if they wish to risk upsetting some folk for the sake of trying different things. Which isn't an easy decision.

On a side note. PLEASE, refrain from using ingame features, speedies,wisps etc to vent your frustrations on PVP. It's embarrassing and completely OOC. Don't be that guy. If you've an issue take it up with the appropriate people.

[DM Poppy]

There are several individuals whom have taken in game affairs far to personally and are expressing their opinion in a way that is overly critical and completely impolite.

I strongly suggest you consider before you submit your posts how they will be recieved by other players.

As is, this thread risks being locked.

[Azensor]

https://www.quora.com/In-LARP-and-other ... it-harmful

[Kalthariam]

Eh, as someone whom plays almost exclusively in the UD. There are 100% people that base their entire Personalities, Justification for their opinions being valid, and their entire character to just simply going up on the surface and PVPing people.

They also enjoy demanding special treatment and think their opinion matters more than others "Because we raid".

I've literally had conversations with people where they brought up the fact they raided no less than 20 times in a single conversation.

PvP Murderhobo blood hounds 1000% exist in the underdark, and they come in waves.

These characters always are completely dull uninteresting, band together into groups of PVP war hounds and immediately react to any conflict with violence, bloodshed and an over eagerness to PvP people.

Thankfully these people burn themselves out quickly like they always do, but they always exist just long enough to not only be disruptive to the surface, but to any semblance of normalcy in the UD as well.

EVery couple of months a new squad shows up starts throwing their weight around killing people and being suspiciously well coordinated in time zones and availability, then after a few months of them giving literally everyone else a headache because all they care about is PvP, they vanish, only to show up again in a few months time and start everything over.

It's really obnoxious and tiresome, but if you say anything your suddenly the target of kill bash squads.

It's honestly probably the least fun part of the underdark.

Edit: Whoops this was in response sort of to something said on the first page, completely missed that there was several pages here, so.. sorry if this seems suddenly out of nowhere and feels offtopic.