Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

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LurkingShadow
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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by LurkingShadow » Tue Jun 13, 2023 1:49 pm

Rei_Jin wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 1:47 pm

... you would be surprised how many surfacers we see in Andunor. Making absolute statements how "no-one" encourages anyone to walk into Andunor, are not helpful, nor are they accurate.

Heck, when I have been wandering around on my kobold at different points and come across a surfacer, at least half the time I am asked "how do I get to Andunor?" and I end up giving them directions.

Mind you, im new on Arelith (Joined about in august) but I have not seen that. And I usually encourage people not to go in character. It is pure insanity to just stroll int othe Underdark in a leisure walk in this setting. Perhaps some surfacers are crazy enough, but then I just see them as outcasts if any of my chars is down there at the moment. Elves also seem to be turned into a spinning kebab spear on sight according to the rumours icly.


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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by Rei_Jin » Tue Jun 13, 2023 1:54 pm

Elves, due to the actions for literal RL years by the Black Archers, are viewed with deep suspicion at best, and outright hostility at worst.

Gnomes get a lot of negativity (but rarely outright hostility) from kobolds, as is setting appropriate.

But… dwarves, half-orcs, humans, halflings? Most do not care about their presence at all, unless they make a nuisance of themselves.

Heck, we had a FEY come through the other day and make a trade deal. Was it an actual fey or someone in disguise as one? I don’t know! But they weren’t attacked, rather, they were treated respectfully and they got what they came for.


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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by LurkingShadow » Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:00 pm

Rei_Jin wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 1:54 pm

Elves, due to the actions for literal RL years by the Black Archers, are viewed with deep suspicion at best, and outright hostility at worst.

Gnomes get a lot of negativity (but rarely outright hostility) from kobolds, as is setting appropriate.

But… dwarves, half-orcs, humans, halflings? Most do not care about their presence at all, unless they make a nuisance of themselves.

Heck, we had a FEY come through the other day and make a trade deal. Was it an actual fey or someone in disguise as one? I don’t know! But they weren’t attacked, rather, they were treated respectfully and they got what they came for.

Seems I need to hang more in the Hub on my UD alt.

As it is, I hope the conflict leads to something more than just PvP and something fun. I will never support the slavery mechanic as one sided as it is but you give perspect. And Shadowclaws are interesting for sure! Just so people know that im not here just going "Hurr! UD BAD!". There is lot of interesting aspects on both sides.


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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by Royal Blood » Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:05 pm

I think the leadership players on both sides are actively seeking alternatives and resolutions. But there needs to be a narrative budge which is what I think prompted this post.

In my opinion, the UD has made some very reasonable narrative offers that would curb the raiding. It would require surface to change it's tempo but I don't think the offers have been anything absurdly obtuse.

One example was like a settlement to cease their obvious attempts to free slaves and to outlaw settlement sanctioned chain breaking. Obviously this would probably continue covertly but the UD was seeking to end chain breakers literally posting on Hub boards for slaves to find freedom. ((This is a very old negotiations example which is why I posted it.))

Since skinning a chain breaker and hanging the corpse up didnt change behavior other actions had to occurr

This stuff is based off of IC actions. I do truly believe the major effort is to find good narrative outlets for both sides but it's been difficult to promote change.

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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by LurkingShadow » Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:09 pm

Royal Blood wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:05 pm

I think the leadership players on both sides are actively seeking alternatives and resolutions. But there needs to be a narrative budge which is what I think prompted this post.

In my opinion, the UD has made some very reasonable narrative offers that would curb the raiding. It would require surface to change it's tempo but I don't think the offers have been anything absurdly obtuse.

One example was like a settlement to cease their obvious attempts to free slaves and to outlaw settlement sanctioned chain breaking. Obviously this would probably continue covertly but the UD was seeking to end chain breakers literally posting on Hub boards for slaves to find freedom. ((This is a very old negotiations example which is why I posted it.))

Since skinning a chain breaker and hanging the corpse up didnt change behavior other actions had to occurr

This stuff is based off of IC actions. I do truly believe the major effort is to find good narrative outlets for both sides but it's been difficult to promote change.

Back to the core issue again. Slavery. :mrgreen:


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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by Royal Blood » Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:11 pm

I like slavery in that it allows for a narrative advancement and consequence without having to kill a character.

I'm pretty sure the surface could do this via sibayad? I'm not sure it's exclusive to the UD or that there is any rule against the surface taking a UD slave under the right conditions and appropriate role play?

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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by LurkingShadow » Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:12 pm

Royal Blood wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:11 pm

I like slavery in that it allows for a narrative advancement and consequence without having to kill a character.

I'm pretty sure the surface could do this via sibayad? I'm not sure it's exclusive to the UD or that there is any rule against the surface taking a UD slave under the right conditions and appropriate role play?

Im not sure if Sibayyad still have it.

But Guldorand and Cordor going out of their way to enslave people in Sibayyad sounds bit odd and out of character with the amount of paladins and such. This is why I been suggesting a prisoner/prison labour system.


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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by Cthuletta » Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:15 pm

On the topic of slavery/prisoner stuff, the 'Capture RP' thread is full of good discussion on that!

Regarding everything else, I've seen a couple points in this thread that I really like and also have personal experience with, as someone who's played long-term in both the UD and the Surface.
When it comes to raids, by and large the majority of the time, and I'm talking both sides here, there's usually something that happened first that spurred it on, making it a retaliation. 'So-and-so is killing our low-level writ-workers, we need to show them they can't bully us' and then a raid or invasion happens. Or, 'They took our person, we're going to show them they can't do that', and another raid happens. Tale as old as time, from what I've seen on my brief two-years-and-some-change on this server. There is almost always (in my experience, at least) a REASON raids happen, and this goes for both Surface and UD. My old UD toon used to call it something along the lines of 'Old recycled hate'. This person did that, so we do this, but then they do that, so we have to do this, so on and so forth, for months, until where it all 'started' is pretty much entirely forgotten.
Is it realistic in the setting? Yes, actually. Old Hate is very much a thing, like elves and drow. On the flip side, you see something like elves in the UD all the time, usually in collars, but not always, however you almost never see drow hanging around on the Surface, accepted by 'goodly' characters for whatever reason. (I say this just as an example since it's the easiest one to come to mind.)
It seems to me that while some things are very lore-accurate in terms of FR 3.5, other things... not so much. That really comes from the fact that we aren't elves, drow, hin, minotaurs, gnolls, or faeries in real life, we're all humans playing with other humans and don't have that mindset. Can things be done to enforce that setting? Sure! But how do you balance that with the human's enjoyment behind the screen?
Is being permanently killed in a righteous battle between the forces of good and evil lore-accurate and realistic? Yes!! But, again, you gotta consider the player. They should be able to determine how their character's story ends on their own terms, and you can't really assert what you find to be an appropriate consequence onto another person. It's all opinion-based, in the end. Just because something might be realistic, doesn't always mean it's something that can reasonably be enforced. DMs DO enforce things that are just hard 'no's, but unless they are actively and repeatedly breaking the rules, they're not going to make you perma-roll your character. They're not tyrants.

When it comes to 'fearing the night', that's personally one of my favourite styles of roleplay, and something that I enjoyed when I played on the Ravenloft server. PLEASE give my character something to be afraid and wary of, I LIVE for that kind of horror-genre stuff! The Underdark SHOULD be feared, and I want more of that in Arelith and I am enjoying that aspect of it that's stirring right now. This doesn't HAVE to be in the form of raids, I personally find that someone running into a group of 'monsters' or highway men, shaking out your pocket money, and sending you back with a message to be really engaging and it can create a whole storyline. Imagine being brand new to Arelith, going on a courier writ, getting shaken down by some bad guy on the road... and you run back with a note for whatever settlement is closeby to share your story and find help. 9 times out of 10, if you get stolen from, someone is gonna replenish what you lost and you get to make friends in the process. It works in the opposite direction, as well, with Underdarkers being afraid of the sun or people who wander in the daylight. Perhaps some surfacers are parked up at the known entrances to the UD to intimidate those that come up, to go back down! No PvP required!

On the topic of corpse fixtures, I agree that we could have more fixtures, with the rule attached to them they CANNOT be a player-character without their express consent. I remember at one point seeing a bunch of skull-poles around, I think on the Cordor Docks, and it was just 'Sailor Skulls'. A bunch of non-descript NPCs, who had been beheaded and put onto a pole as a 'Haha to you, surfacers!' and it disturbed a lot of characters and created talk and roleplay around it. Stuff like that is menacing, it's creepy and disconcerting, creates that fear, again, without PvP being needed.

This next thought of mine may be a bit of a hot take, but I've noticed a slight pattern that when one side begins to 'win', topics like this start to crop up with more frequency. However, we shouldn't forget it really does ebb and flow as stated above in this thread. Sometimes ya win, sometimes ya lose, and it's all part of the story. This doesn't apply to everyone, not even the majority, but it is something to keep in mind.

This is much more long-winded than I intended, so...

TL:DR; Create more fear without PvP, allow your characters to be afraid, and don't go into PvP with the mindset of creating permanent consequences for another person's character. We're all here to make stories!

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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by somecritter » Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:46 pm

Cthuletta wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:15 pm

When it comes to 'fearing the night', that's personally one of my favourite styles of roleplay, and something that I enjoyed when I played on the Ravenloft server. PLEASE give my character something to be afraid and wary of, I LIVE for that kind of horror-genre stuff! The Underdark SHOULD be feared, and I want more of that in Arelith and I am enjoying that aspect of it that's stirring right now. This doesn't HAVE to be in the form of raids, I personally find that someone running into a group of 'monsters' or highway men, shaking out your pocket money, and sending you back with a message to be really engaging and it can create a whole storyline. Imagine being brand new to Arelith, going on a courier writ, getting shaken down by some bad guy on the road... and you run back with a note for whatever settlement is closeby to share your story and find help. 9 times out of 10, if you get stolen from, someone is gonna replenish what you lost and you get to make friends in the process. It works in the opposite direction, as well, with Underdarkers being afraid of the sun or people who wander in the daylight. Perhaps some surfacers are parked up at the known entrances to the UD to intimidate those that come up, to go back down! No PvP required!

I'm happy to hear that "Fear the Night" is getting some positive feedback. It is personally a narrative I want to see worked on more, and both sides have to play along for that to succeed.

I also can only agree: Getting caught in the night does not have to involve PvP and I can only speak from my own experiences, but it rarely does. Unless someone is doing something incredibly silly in their position of immediate danger. When is PvP more or less inevitable? When the forces of the surface gather an army and march out to resist the dangerous night dwellers.

Thank you for the feedback!


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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by Wrips » Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:56 pm

This is the kind of discussion that a, year from now, there will be people saying how they miss the time when underdarkers were a threat or that conflict was more prevalent or that a cool evil faction was active in city X and doing cool stuff or that cool banites were around doing cool rp in Minmir.

Get the reins of narrative and ride it!


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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:59 pm

Wrips wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:56 pm

This is the kind of discussion that a, year from now, there will be people saying how they miss the time when underdarkers were a threat or that conflict was more prevalent or that a cool evil faction was active in city X and doing cool stuff or that cool banites were around doing cool rp in Minmir.

Get the reins of narrative and ride it!

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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by Power Word, Haste » Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:26 pm

LurkingShadow wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 1:32 pm

PvP is at the core, not roleplaying or very interesting.

PvP again, is not a valid conflict in my opinion.

You might not like it, but this is wrong. PvP is just another tool available to be used when telling a story.


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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by rspwn » Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:05 pm

There's many good points being made.

I'd like to highlight what Irongron said. "If anything if I'd like to move away from this perception that PvP is the 'end game' of Arelith, especially mass PvP, which is where, despite all of our efforts, the game really breaks down."

I agree wholeheartidly with this. At the end of the day, most people are here to tell a story. Not min-max and PVP all day. (They do exist but it's a minority)

There's also this quote from this poster. "What you will see is a small handful of people - glorified NPCs at this rate - hiding away in their quarters, only coming out to refresh their shops during the Australian sunrise - in the positions that are sufficiently important enough to get Consequence'd. Then, everyone else - just important enough to be better than you, but sufficiently unimportant to dodge harsh Conequencing - will, by chance, happen upon a strange wanderer who will serendipitously join their raiding party for shiggles. Because people want to play with their friends and people don't want their characters to die by anyone's terms except their own."

I disagree with this ultimately. Sure, there may be some who would attempt to "turtle" their character in safe places. But. By doing this you're opening avenues for other characters to come and replace you. Which in my opinion is more than fair. If a player was to turtle I think it'd balance out naturally. Whether by the story,the environment moving without them, or giving assassins a reason to exist.

The idea of PVP being bragging rights, a nonchalant activity is tied to lack of consequences. Expanding upon consequences would force people to think twice before engaging in such. Instead of instantly getting into a fight it'd expand upon the dialogue which might lead to a fight, or could lead to another avenue.

To bring it back to characters. Not all characters have to be a soldier, a warrior, someone who is actively engaging in PVP battles. If you're playing someone who brags about being a grand duelist, or military tactician. IC my character would expect your character to know how to do these things. It's not wrong to expect that. If you're playing a character like this, you shouldn't be complaining about getting pulled into PVP.

Ultimately, PVP is best used a tool to expand upon storytelling. That's the best way we can use it within the framework of NWN.


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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by Bazelgeuse » Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:21 pm

I've never been able to find any point in thumbing noses at people who hide in cities or private quarters when there's mass PVP going on, isn't it a "win" for the raidesr if they can drive everyone into hiding from them? :|


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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by LurkingShadow » Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:28 pm

Power Word, Haste wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:26 pm
LurkingShadow wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 1:32 pm

PvP is at the core, not roleplaying or very interesting.

PvP again, is not a valid conflict in my opinion.

You might not like it, but this is wrong. PvP is just another tool available to be used when telling a story.

Can be, but often its just, action, PVP.


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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by AskRyze » Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:35 am

Irongron wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:16 am

If anything if I'd like to move away from this perception that PvP is the 'end game' of Arelith, especially mass PvP, which is where, despite all of our efforts, the game really breaks down.

I do not want to come off as short-tempered or uncouth. I want to say this with earnesty and fairness in mind, and I want to acknowledge the effort you and your team put into the server. But, at present...

There is an awful, awful dearth of things to do once you're max level, and it feels like this topic crops up about once every year or so.

In truth, it feels like the only things that players have to occupy their time are as follows:

  1. Stand around in the Hub/Cordor/Bendir and peoplewatch (AKA watch Netflix)

  2. Come up with Some social RP thing to do (and subsequently convince other people how and why doing that thing is worth their time)

  3. Grind more runics (diminishing returns, and there's only so much you can do with the gold gained from selling runics once you're rich and fully geared)

  4. PVP

Pushing out or slowing down the pace of leveling isn't really going to do anything but stall the arrival toward the inevitable "Why am I still here?" that awaits every sufficiently present player. Some players are lucky, tripping into plot or having friends that give them a clean shot at option 2 that people will voluntarily interact with. Some players become settlement leaders or heads of influential factions. Some players are lucky or connected enough to join an active player group that will give them something to do, be it sailing or runics or raiding. Some players are skilled enough to draw others into their stories.

Most players are not. And for those players, the game ends at 30, and the postgame is a timer slowly running out.

Flower Power wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2023 10:53 pm

You say this, but being MILDLY MEAN to people is treated like a war crime on Arelith.


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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by Hedgehog » Wed Jun 14, 2023 1:28 pm

If the system was more conducive to allow for more fair and competitive pvp battles...sure... But this game isn't exactly Street Fighter 6 with rollback netcode.

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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Jun 14, 2023 5:41 pm

AskRyze wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:35 am
Irongron wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:16 am

If anything if I'd like to move away from this perception that PvP is the 'end game' of Arelith, especially mass PvP, which is where, despite all of our efforts, the game really breaks down.

I do not want to come off as short-tempered or uncouth. I want to say this with earnesty and fairness in mind, and I want to acknowledge the effort you and your team put into the server. But, at present...

There is an awful, awful dearth of things to do once you're max level, and it feels like this topic crops up about once every year or so.

In truth, it feels like the only things that players have to occupy their time are as follows:

  1. Stand around in the Hub/Cordor/Bendir and peoplewatch (AKA watch Netflix)

  2. Come up with Some social RP thing to do (and subsequently convince other people how and why doing that thing is worth their time)

  3. Grind more runics (diminishing returns, and there's only so much you can do with the gold gained from selling runics once you're rich and fully geared)

  4. PVP

Pushing out or slowing down the pace of leveling isn't really going to do anything but stall the arrival toward the inevitable "Why am I still here?" that awaits every sufficiently present player. Some players are lucky, tripping into plot or having friends that give them a clean shot at option 2 that people will voluntarily interact with. Some players become settlement leaders or heads of influential factions. Some players are lucky or connected enough to join an active player group that will give them something to do, be it sailing or runics or raiding. Some players are skilled enough to draw others into their stories.

Most players are not. And for those players, the game ends at 30, and the postgame is a timer slowly running out.

What sort of thing would you invistion End Game content to look like? What kind of thing do you think would be good?

Keep in mind a few things.
A) there needs to be some sort of award for 'end game content' but at the same time, we need to be wary of too much power creep.
B) Whilst I'm all for some version of mega dungeon/more sailing/ect - I think that more chill, solo-active things - (e.g. fishing, language learning) are good too.

Genuinly curious as to see some ideas here.

This too shall pass.

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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by Edens_Fall » Wed Jun 14, 2023 5:55 pm

I know better players and posters than I have mentioned it before in other threads, but there really needs to be a conflict resolution system other than just PvP. A modified War System where PvP deaths have no meaning, but some other faction does. Resources gathered or quests completed? I'm not sure. We have better minds than mine for such creativity.

As it stands, while PvP can be fun, it's never going to change anything or remove anyone from power. Entrenched Factions/Players will still remain in control, and the battles will slowly slide into OOC until DM's step in and bans are passed out. It's happened so many times before and is a repeat of history.

My advice is to go into Raids and Wars, knowing you do so for the fun of it, and not to make any real changes. Otherwise, you'll just get frustrated and burned out. That is unless you want to reach out to the other side and arrange some agreement OOC. Such as a "Lets war for a RL month, and the winning side gets X" OR "Let's meet with our sides on the said date and said location and have a battle. Winner gets this, loser does that".

Food for thought.


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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by Edens_Fall » Wed Jun 14, 2023 6:09 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 5:41 pm
AskRyze wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:35 am
Irongron wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:16 am

If anything if I'd like to move away from this perception that PvP is the 'end game' of Arelith, especially mass PvP, which is where, despite all of our efforts, the game really breaks down.

I do not want to come off as short-tempered or uncouth. I want to say this with earnesty and fairness in mind, and I want to acknowledge the effort you and your team put into the server. But, at present...

There is an awful, awful dearth of things to do once you're max level, and it feels like this topic crops up about once every year or so.

In truth, it feels like the only things that players have to occupy their time are as follows:

  1. Stand around in the Hub/Cordor/Bendir and peoplewatch (AKA watch Netflix)

  2. Come up with Some social RP thing to do (and subsequently convince other people how and why doing that thing is worth their time)

  3. Grind more runics (diminishing returns, and there's only so much you can do with the gold gained from selling runics once you're rich and fully geared)

  4. PVP

Pushing out or slowing down the pace of leveling isn't really going to do anything but stall the arrival toward the inevitable "Why am I still here?" that awaits every sufficiently present player. Some players are lucky, tripping into plot or having friends that give them a clean shot at option 2 that people will voluntarily interact with. Some players become settlement leaders or heads of influential factions. Some players are lucky or connected enough to join an active player group that will give them something to do, be it sailing or runics or raiding. Some players are skilled enough to draw others into their stories.

Most players are not. And for those players, the game ends at 30, and the postgame is a timer slowly running out.

What sort of thing would you invistion End Game content to look like? What kind of thing do you think would be good?

Keep in mind a few things.
A) there needs to be some sort of award for 'end game content' but at the same time, we need to be wary of too much power creep.
B) Whilst I'm all for some version of mega dungeon/more sailing/ect - I think that more chill, solo-active things - (e.g. fishing, language learning) are good too.

Genuinly curious as to see some ideas here.

1) End-game content would need to be an investment and time dump, with some sort of general goal to aim for. The recent War between Amn and Waterdeep was a good example. I might suggest a neverending conflict, be it active (War) or social (such as a trade dispute) between two powers (Be it local to Arelith, foreign governments, or even the Blood War) that Players (Not just settlements) can work towards affecting. For Example: If so many resources are gathered, or mobs are killed in a certain area, the players can shift the balance of the conflict (though never end it). This might result in fewer mobs on the other side spawning, or if it's a trade issue, more writs appearing for players to complete for rare resources/items. Maybe even a new merchant appears at a trading post from whatever side is "in the lead" in the conflict. Minmir Battlefields and the planes of Hell come to mind as areas we already have that lean towards this idea, just without any current award or system in place to reward the player's efforts.

2) End game writs with a longer timer between when they can be taken that award resources or social rp items for lvl 30 players. Would be a great way to guide players to unused areas like the deep wells and spread the RP out away from Cordor and Bendir. Would also allow us to then the market of items or reduce dungeon grinding. If a land-based player wanted to try for one of those spoons that never runs out of food, well they can take the lvl 30 writ once every two weeks and have a 5% of getting the item upon turn in (as an example), the other 95% of the time they get an RP or Arelith lore item (Like a History book to help the new players learn the lore of the server).

2) The ability for Settlement leaders to create writs for the sailing system is really a neat idea. I would expand this to allow the same to be done for non-sailing tasks as well.

3) Disconnect the castles from "settlement only" bidding. Allow factions to bid for the locations, and we might see them being used rather than traded between settlements for no other reason than not letting anyone else have them while the location sits unused. They can of course be restricted to alignment or race, but I would like to see these locations used for more than hosting a ball every now and then.

EDITED: For grammar. My spelling is a Sin upon the Gods.

Last edited by Edens_Fall on Wed Jun 14, 2023 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Xerah
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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by Xerah » Wed Jun 14, 2023 6:14 pm

AskRyze wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:35 am
Irongron wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:16 am

If anything if I'd like to move away from this perception that PvP is the 'end game' of Arelith, especially mass PvP, which is where, despite all of our efforts, the game really breaks down.

I do not want to come off as short-tempered or uncouth. I want to say this with earnesty and fairness in mind, and I want to acknowledge the effort you and your team put into the server. But, at present...

There is an awful, awful dearth of things to do once you're max level, and it feels like this topic crops up about once every year or so.

In truth, it feels like the only things that players have to occupy their time are as follows:

  1. Stand around in the Hub/Cordor/Bendir and peoplewatch (AKA watch Netflix)

  2. Come up with Some social RP thing to do (and subsequently convince other people how and why doing that thing is worth their time)

  3. Grind more runics (diminishing returns, and there's only so much you can do with the gold gained from selling runics once you're rich and fully geared)

  4. PVP

Pushing out or slowing down the pace of leveling isn't really going to do anything but stall the arrival toward the inevitable "Why am I still here?" that awaits every sufficiently present player. Some players are lucky, tripping into plot or having friends that give them a clean shot at option 2 that people will voluntarily interact with. Some players become settlement leaders or heads of influential factions. Some players are lucky or connected enough to join an active player group that will give them something to do, be it sailing or runics or raiding. Some players are skilled enough to draw others into their stories.

Most players are not. And for those players, the game ends at 30, and the postgame is a timer slowly running out.

It's really sad that your list doesn't include any kind of roleplaying creating a story. I can't imagine why people play here when they have this kind of mindset; it's no wonder things seems so dull. You're a character. Tell a story. Create a problem. Work with others. It's not all about mechanical systems.

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Edens_Fall
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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by Edens_Fall » Wed Jun 14, 2023 6:24 pm

Xerah wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 6:14 pm
AskRyze wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:35 am
Irongron wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:16 am

If anything if I'd like to move away from this perception that PvP is the 'end game' of Arelith, especially mass PvP, which is where, despite all of our efforts, the game really breaks down.

I do not want to come off as short-tempered or uncouth. I want to say this with earnesty and fairness in mind, and I want to acknowledge the effort you and your team put into the server. But, at present...

There is an awful, awful dearth of things to do once you're max level, and it feels like this topic crops up about once every year or so.

In truth, it feels like the only things that players have to occupy their time are as follows:

  1. Stand around in the Hub/Cordor/Bendir and peoplewatch (AKA watch Netflix)

  2. Come up with Some social RP thing to do (and subsequently convince other people how and why doing that thing is worth their time)

  3. Grind more runics (diminishing returns, and there's only so much you can do with the gold gained from selling runics once you're rich and fully geared)

  4. PVP

Pushing out or slowing down the pace of leveling isn't really going to do anything but stall the arrival toward the inevitable "Why am I still here?" that awaits every sufficiently present player. Some players are lucky, tripping into plot or having friends that give them a clean shot at option 2 that people will voluntarily interact with. Some players become settlement leaders or heads of influential factions. Some players are lucky or connected enough to join an active player group that will give them something to do, be it sailing or runics or raiding. Some players are skilled enough to draw others into their stories.

Most players are not. And for those players, the game ends at 30, and the postgame is a timer slowly running out.

It's really sad that your list doesn't include any kind of roleplaying creating a story. I can't imagine why people play here when they have this kind of mindset; it's no wonder things seems so dull. You're a character. Tell a story. Create a problem. Work with others. It's not all about mechanical systems.

Not everyone is going to be willing to create a story. Our experiences might be different, of course, but my past attempts to do so often end with bad vibes all around. This is assuming the other party even wants to try of course. Generally, no one wants to lose or risk their positions/social standing. Why would they? It's far too easy to get pariah and Exiled for the mere whiff of breaking the status quo. Why even risk a daring RP story? This, of course, is only taking into account Players that reach out to other players they are not friends with. I have seen many a great RP played out within OOC friend groups. Why? Because they trust each other for the IG actions not to bleed into the OOC and lead to RL years of grudge between social circles.

Having a hard system removes a lot of that risk and drama because the blame and fault can be laid at the feet of the system rather than our own. If that makes sense?


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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by Akzeriuth900 » Wed Jun 14, 2023 6:37 pm

Amateur Hour wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:00 am

Perhaps a bit of a lighter-weight take on the core point:

It sort of boggles my mind when we have military leaders on one side of the Surface/UD conflict who keep dying/losing and yet they're still trusted with power. Maybe people don't have to stay dead, but perhaps they should be resigning from the military part of the job if this ends up being a consistent pattern.

If you're referring to Urshak's latest defeat, then you don't have much of an idea of how many times he's defeated underdarkers before. One defeat doesn't break a military leader. "Keeps dying/losing"? What about the multiple wins they had in the past? We just going to erase all of those? Ask your questions IC, as for why he's still in power. Don't need to wonder about that kind of things.


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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by Eira » Wed Jun 14, 2023 7:24 pm

Xerah wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 6:14 pm

It's really sad that your list doesn't include any kind of roleplaying creating a story. I can't imagine why people play here when they have this kind of mindset; it's no wonder things seems so dull. You're a character. Tell a story. Create a problem. Work with others. It's not all about mechanical systems.

My sentiment exactly. It seems that what people define as "social roleplayer" has grown from the original definition of sitting around a fire and ignoring anything that threatens to disrupt social times, to include literally anything that is not pvp or grinding.

And that's incredibly worrisome.

I exist to describe the world around us.

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Re: Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

Post by Old Lies Die Harder » Wed Jun 14, 2023 7:55 pm

Xerah wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 6:14 pm
AskRyze wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:35 am
Irongron wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:16 am

If anything if I'd like to move away from this perception that PvP is the 'end game' of Arelith, especially mass PvP, which is where, despite all of our efforts, the game really breaks down.

I do not want to come off as short-tempered or uncouth. I want to say this with earnesty and fairness in mind, and I want to acknowledge the effort you and your team put into the server. But, at present...

There is an awful, awful dearth of things to do once you're max level, and it feels like this topic crops up about once every year or so.

In truth, it feels like the only things that players have to occupy their time are as follows:

  1. Stand around in the Hub/Cordor/Bendir and peoplewatch (AKA watch Netflix)

  2. Come up with Some social RP thing to do (and subsequently convince other people how and why doing that thing is worth their time)

  3. Grind more runics (diminishing returns, and there's only so much you can do with the gold gained from selling runics once you're rich and fully geared)

  4. PVP

Pushing out or slowing down the pace of leveling isn't really going to do anything but stall the arrival toward the inevitable "Why am I still here?" that awaits every sufficiently present player. Some players are lucky, tripping into plot or having friends that give them a clean shot at option 2 that people will voluntarily interact with. Some players become settlement leaders or heads of influential factions. Some players are lucky or connected enough to join an active player group that will give them something to do, be it sailing or runics or raiding. Some players are skilled enough to draw others into their stories.

Most players are not. And for those players, the game ends at 30, and the postgame is a timer slowly running out.

It's really sad that your list doesn't include any kind of roleplaying creating a story. I can't imagine why people play here when they have this kind of mindset; it's no wonder things seems so dull. You're a character. Tell a story. Create a problem. Work with others. It's not all about mechanical systems.

I have to third this sentiment, Xerah.

I spent a good part of yesterday writing up a response to this post, but got pulled away by work and didn't mention it. I'm regretting not just pulling the trigger at this point.

There's a fifth item that needs to be on this list, and frankly it needs to be the first item on this list: LEADERSHIP.

I don't mean leadership in terms of holding office in a city or running a faction. That's power, not leadership. I mean leadership as in: investing in other people's characters and boosting their narrative.

Okay, you're level 30. You have resources both mechanical and narrative. Create things for other people using these resources.

Are you a wizard? Find a fledgling wizard and mentor them by doing a little RP with them, introducing them to places/things/phenomena on the server, and possibly helping them source scrolls for their spellbook. Are you a fighter/mundane? Great. You can help fledgling wizards by paying them to scribe scrolls for your consumables. Are you a crafter? Find characters that can't make anything good with low tradeskill investment, bring them the materials, and have them spend the CPs to make the item, then pay them in the gold they need or by helping them source gear/connections. Run/help out with an event that teaches server/setting history on different topics while providing a mechanical cookie. Pay the idiot half orc with a high str to gather that one resource you need that happens to be in the area where they're doing a writ.

You don't have to do this as good aligned. Ambush lowbies on writs by the coal mine with your evil exiled-from-cordor necro-demon summoner and start a smuggling ring where lowbies can bring your exiled and reviled character materials that are easily available in Cordor in exchange for their lives (and money!). Disguise up and find a midlevel who's shady and give them the (secret family crest) that you stole from (venerated faction) and ask them to fence it for you. Forge a (secret family crest) to see if you can trust them to not go to the guards, and then recruit them into your thieves guild. Throw out a coy wink and a flirty smile to that follower of Sune, and hint at how you'd really like to have a drink with them and talk about the Chancellor/Mayor/Faction Head's movements. Let the level 8 necromancer that just got banished crash at your pad, then give them a shovel and direct them to the nearest (other) settlement's graveyard.

All of the above are just examples. All you need to do is learn a little about the characters around you, and position your character to interact with those characters in a manner that enriches that person's play experience. The possibilities are near infinite, just follow the formula of:

  1. Talk to a character.
  2. Find out what that character wants/needs or is interested (in terms of material wealth, connections, or intangible RP goodies)
  3. Use your epic level resources/connection/capabilities to help source those materials
  4. Engage that player in a way that allows them to contribute in kind (information, craft points, story)

This is something you can (and really should) be doing at any levell, but at "endgame", you are really set up to do this because you have more resources, more connections, and more mobility to get resources without the distraction of having to pay the grind tax to progress.

I literally just spent two months doing this on a commoner tiefling with little to no mechanical oomph, by the way. And after a few weeks of buying in to other people's concepts, characters, and needs, I was busier than I could handle. I was never bored on this character, and frequently had 3-4 people approaching her at once within moments of walking out into the square.


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