Languages IG

[Garrsi]

I've been posting a few things on the forums today about the language system, because it's something I've been playing about with and using quite extensively latley.

To learn a new language is from what I can gather nigh on impossible unless you either a) Play a Max-INT wizard or b) spend literal RL months/years sat outside the Nomad/Myon listening to elves. In my years here I've only managed it once, on a wizard with high INT who managed to get Celestial. I cannot comment on language gift, since for so long it was broken and I'm not entirely sure what it does today.

Now this isn't a rant, that's all fair enough but I have noticed something else. Because it is so difficult to learn a language, to such an extent most players wont it effectively becomes a form of metagaming.

It's more prominent for languages that are class exclusive (Animal and Theives cant) since to speak it automatically marks your PC out as being a Nature class/Feylock or Rogue but it is mostly true for others as well. To speak Celestial marks you out as good aligned Cleric/Paladin, Draconic a Wizard and so on. This isn't a bad thing in itself, but it seems generate a false sense of OOC saftey.

I noticed this on my Wizard, as soon as he opened his mouth and said a word in celestial he was suddenly and instantly beyond reproach IG, nobody would believe he could steal or murder; it was even commented in tells that "I know you didn't do XYZ, you're good aligned (he was NE)".

I've also seen it used as an IG vetting procedure for factions, unless you speak Infernal you don't get into xxx evil faction. On one hand that might be understandable, but on the other I know it's just being done to confirm the other PC is an evil aligned cleric.

I personally suspect making languages just a teeny bit easier to learn might lessen this a bit, people might think twice and not just assume someone is a saint just because they can say a few holy words.

Any thoughts on the matter guys?

[KarlaFatehart]

As someone who has learned multiple languages (and taught multiple languages to others): it's really quite easy, but takes a bit of dedication.

Instead of learning by eavesdropping, try hiring someone to teach it to you (IE: sit down at a table and listen to them yap at you in preferred language while you RP reading your translation book, or responding to what they say). You can get to know your teacher, while simultaneously learning a language.

[Lily Phoenix]

I agree with Karla's tips. Eavesdropping, whilst useful for languages that are regularly spoken (elves talking in groups, dwarves in Brog), is not ideal for trying to study a less commonly conversational language. One-on-one classes are much better for intensive study.

Seeing that thread in the Q&A made me realise why Am never mastered any of her eight studied languages over six years (I used to carry all the books constantly, because she studied part-and-parcel when she could find the tutors). If I'd known that carrying more books slowed all their learning down, I would've gone from one to another (and because of her ridiculous Int, probably learned them all a LOT faster).
It does make sense, given that you'd be filling your brain with many different languages at once if you were actively studying multiple languages, but it would've been nice if that was in the description of phrasebooks (for those of us that don't think of the common sense things like that ):

*Current Phrasebook description*

Remember! Studying more than one phrasebook at a time will result in slower learning of all languages studied.

[Rystefn]

Yeah, as in RL, you learn best by immersion. Fiala tried for game years to learn elven by getting lessons. Took forever. Then she married a half-elf and was fluent within a couple of months.

[If Valor Were Inches]

My opinions on the subject:

1: The language gift works now, and if you want to learn a language quickly, is definitely the pick for you. Couple it with decent intelligence and you will learn swiftly.

2: You don't need to be a max wizard to benefit from quick learning. Any high int character can learn rather swiftly. My gnome translated the very first sentence she heard with 20 intelligence, and Peony was able to pick up a solid level of Xanalress within two sessions with a captured drow. Another character of mine at just 14 intelligence managed to make significant progress with elven with a few sessions, though not with the swiftness of the first two. A friend's 16 intelligence character was fluent in elven in only two to three weeks, just by constant immersion in elven. Like Rystefyn said, its all about immersion: Living amongst the people who speak the language constantly will help the most (For as long as they speak it amongst you and aren't speaking common so you can't learn it!)

3: The alignment/faction stuff you have talked about are usually untrue. When Yma's Hound spoke celestial, my Aasimar wanted to kill him. Tiefling speaking celestial? A crime! (Unfortunately for my Aasimar the guards disagreed.)

In fact, usually the people who think someone who isn't good must be good aren't doing it because the person speaks x language, but because the individual has 8 wisdom. There are many shady people, and its what they do, not what they say, that gets them judged. And if players think that, ha, you have them fooled! Why complain? Not every player understands your character, or even what "good" is.

Its nice that you can learn a language over a long period of time to infilitrate any factions that are using abyssal/infernal whatever to safeguard themselves. That's not a bad thing to me.

[6999999999999999999999999999999999999999999]

Hmm, a "Tutor"? On the old forum I read something about drow player X, forgot the name, who ran around in Pit Town to find and discard Xanalress phrasebooks because any non-drow shouldn't be able to even understand two hoots of the language. He wanted it to be a well guarded secret. True. Why would a goblin want any non-goblin to understand his kin when they were talking amongst themselves? Or kobolds? Or duergars? or whomever in the Underdark? Not sure how it works on the surface, though. Maybe it a "Trust-party" there and everyone is friends and merry all day long?

[The Rambling Midget]

The same thing happens with surfacers. Dwarves and Halflings are highly protective of their languages. They're usually only taught to those who have effectively been made honorary Dwarves or Halflings.

Elves are somewhat protective, but far less so than Dwarves and Halflings, because Elven is so common, and most of them are just too lazy to do anything about it.

[6999999999999999999999999999999999999999999]

I just went looking through a bookshelve in the Hub. All of a sudden six goblin phrasebooks has been put in there, specifically what: "Spetz, Cy'an, Krby and Boo is saying". Guess the goblin players are not part of the paranoid culture

[Manabi]

Can anyone state how many IG hours of conversation it would take a high intelligence character without the linguist background to learn a language?

Some of the things I've read here is disheartening.

[The Rambling Midget]

Here's my advice: If you count the hours, you're never going to learn the language. You'll just hate it and stop trying, or your learning RP will be horrible and forced. If your character is immersed in another culture frequently enough to learn the language, then so be it. If not, it's probably not going to be worth the time.

Languages are almost never used anymore, except in small group settings where it's known that everyone speaks the language, or that someone who shouldn't hear doesn't know the language. You really won't miss out on much by not being a linguist.

[If Valor Were Inches]

Can anyone state how many IG hours of conversation it would take a high intelligence character without the linguist background to learn a language?

Some of the things I've read here is disheartening.

Its a variable, determined by several factors.

1: Mystery, since we don't understand how it works entirely. (Done purposefully)

2: How fast you type. Faster types can say more in less time.

3: How high that INt is.

4: Chance. My guess is the more translated lines, the better progress you will make. Eventually you'll have your first translated line, and it only increases the chance from there.

Peony my wizard had -only- two solid sessions of Xanalress teaching before she could talk and understand maybe 20% of the time. That grew to 33% over time.

Despite a few sessions of gnome, she can only muster it occasionally.

Despite not really having a single sessions of elven, she is now fluent over many IG years.

You can do it in three weeks over several IG hours a day. But you have to practice it daily.

[Rystefn]

Languages are almost never used anymore, except in small group settings where it's known that everyone speaks the language, or that someone who shouldn't hear doesn't know the language. You really won't miss out on much by not being a linguist.

Or elves. I've lost track of the number of times I'v dealt with elves taking four or five minutes to even notice not everyone understands them because they've been speaking elvish the whole time.

[Rattus_norvegicus99]

The same thing happens with surfacers. Dwarves and Halflings are highly protective of their languages. They're usually only taught to those who have effectively been made honorary Dwarves or Halflings.

Elves are somewhat protective, but far less so than Dwarves and Halflings, because Elven is so common, and most of them are just too lazy to do anything about it.

I played dwarves for years and haven't found them too protective of their language. Though halflings sure are.

[The Man of the Moon]

I was learning elvenish and dwarvish (at same time) with Morkhav... I reached a higher progress in elven while the elven players seem more available to use it.

I had more than ten sessions plus several casual meetings on elven, but less with dwarven.

I was allowed to understand like 70% of the elven words spoken by others and like 50% chances to speak Elvenish when using the -el command...

Then, suddenly, at some point, my understanding of elvenish dropped like to 5% (dunno why)

I started with both phrasebooks at same time, so I have no idea where the problem was.

Postdata: I enchanted a complete gear with INT for the purpose of improve the chances to learn during the sessions... that and a Fox Cunning potion can really enhance your chances significatively!

... later, be careful and replace every item by your standard combat gear before notice you forgot it too late hahaha