Arelith

A couple suggestions have gone out regarding drow ambushes so I figured why not open these lovely guys up for discussion. I am very sure these guys invoke strong feelings that one can only have after having eight archers spawn ontop of you and murder you with awesome arrows in a second.

So let's talk about drow ambushes.

Here's my 2 cents.

I've noticed they spawn in two different "types" - Dark Archers and Drow Skirmishers.

Drow Skirmishers are fine. They're roughly tuned for low or mid teens, and they work great in that range. They're not a death sentence, but they're not weak.

Dark Archers, are a different story. These guys have close to 40 AB, hit for around 30, and spawn in a pod of five to eight. They also cast entangle (strangely, a brief respite from their overwhelming pewpew), and have bows - so they crit for three times that. Sure, they're vaguely paper-y, but that doesn't matter when they immediately shred anyone that isn't a high-epic barbarian in seconds. The best part is? I had them spawn on me at level 15. I did not survive.

I had the dark archers spawn on my lvl 11 by the entrance to the Outpost Portal, died instantly.

When this was still rather new, a day or two at the most, I and about 5 other elves went to the underdark with a simple mission, in the first area we had these spawn in on us 6 different times, as we walked a relatively straight line, while they weren't overpowered they did become rather annoying and we simply turned back out of frustration, having gone through a great deal of healing supplies in one area.

As a side note it detracts from the entire idea that Andunor is a trade city. Something that we've been slowly but steadily going away from. Andunor is indeed a drow city now.

The underdark is (and should be) the creepiest, and most dangerous place in the world. Over the past several years, the designers made the underdark more and more surprising and unpredictable but I suppose it takes a bunch of encounters with 0 survival chance to finally make players scared of that place as they should be.

I am sorry Astral, but as someone that has played a slave down there, creating such a thing does not create fun. While it should be challenging, the point of "this" game is fun, not to see how impossible we can make things. While that might be fun for you. Its often not for the other players.

caldura firebourne wrote:As a side note it detracts from the entire idea that Andunor is a trade city. Something that we've been slowly but steadily going away from. Andunor is indeed a drow city now.

Have to say, I strongly disagree with that. To my experience, Andunor is pretty much the "Coin first, xenophobia later" UD Tradecity, that I like it to be (i.e. Not getting shredded by "Muh superiority" drow for every second slight).
Emphasis here: It's xenophobia later. It's not gone. -> Andunor's inhabitants are willing to overlook your PC's race, if there's some gain in it. Mind you, they still hate their guts. Inferior, surface dweller guts.

In my opinion, the drow ambushes bring back a feeling of danger to the underdark. Basic message is, you can enter Andunor and do your trading, but like everywhere in the underdark, it's rule of the strongest. Those on top of it all will do as they please and if you can't take the heat, you better get out of the kitchen.

Just because Andunor is a tradecity that does not mean surfacers (especially elves!) have some sort of protection.

Andunor is a place where 90% of the population is evil, the other 9% being neutral, and as such, people will abuse their power and influence where they can, trying to get away with as much personal freedom and gain as possible.
You look at someone wrong, they might just kill you because they can, if you're unlucky.

--> My piece on this? Good implementation. I'd like to see random peasant mobs on the surface that attack monsters! Maybe less quality and more quantity, really just for the RP of it.

DarkDreamer wrote:I am sorry Astral, but as someone that has played a slave down there, creating such a thing does not create fun. While it should be challenging, the point of "this" game is fun, not to see how impossible we can make things. While that might be fun for you. Its often not for the other players.

Do drow ambushes spawn on slaves? I was under the impression that they spawned on surfacers only -- e.g., not monster races, outcasts, or slaves.

They spawned on me.

DarkDreamer wrote:They spawned on me.

That is a bug then, they should not spawn on Outcasts and Slaves. Unless they were spawned beforehand by someone else? Either way I will look over the ambushes and tweak them.

thanks!

Unless you got a warlock or a VERY good tank with 50s AC, the archers are nigh impossible to deal with.

DarkDreamer wrote:I am sorry Astral, but as someone that has played a slave down there, creating such a thing does not create fun. While it should be challenging, the point of "this" game is fun, not to see how impossible we can make things. While that might be fun for you. Its often not for the other players.

I once entered Paush's layer by myself. I had no idea I wouldn't be able to exit after I went inside, I died in seconds (and I play a lvl 30 beefy front liner with good saves and survivabilities). You wont get a 'nerf paush' thread from me because I understsand this is place is SUPPOSED to be a death trap that would take a massive party of powerbuilders to go through. While I agree with you that having fun is the priority, sometimes you gotta learn in the hard way where you character can or cannot go. You cant expect to survive anything. And I'm not talking spessifically about you (which in this case it's a slave who wasn't even supposed to trigger this encounter at all), I'm talking only about surfacers who venture in the underdark like it was bramble wood.

you realize youre comparing a single area, the throne of a demon lord no less, to a third of the server areas?

Astral wrote: I once entered Paush's layer by myself.

Your lie. It is not appreciated.





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Dat PTSD, tho.

People have the tendency of wanting to know how exatly everything works (see the darkness thread) or be able to beat everything. I have not personally experienced these drow ambushes, but they sound really exciting, something to keep PCs on their toes.

There is no design flaw in something that is really hard to beat (asides them spawning on too low level characters). Drow ambushes are entirely optional, you don't need to beat them, you can flee and go somewhere else, or you can gather a larger group and go for revenge.

Many of us have played on the server for years, we know which spawns are where, we know their AB, their damage, their AC and their loot tables. We're very rarely in a position where we're not in control of what our PCs are engaging, don't squash down things that keep the server alive, interesting and unpredictable.

Shadowy Reality wrote:...don't squash down things that keep the server alive, interesting and unpredictable.

Interesting is not a word I would use to describe the ambushes in their current state. I had one happen once a couple of steps outside of the Outpost, spawning five or maybe six Dark Archers, better known as the guys with high 30s AB. I went in (after, of course, somehow being killed and godsaving while I loaded the area as I come through with twenty five percent less piety and a greater sanctuary effect), the Archers murdered the minotaur guard within seconds. I used my godsave to flee, but imaginably whoever came through after me had no such luck.

They're quite strong, clearly intended for mid-high epic level characters, yet they can spawn as low as level fifteen. There is Nothing Interesting about an arbitrary death sentence.

I alreayd know everything the archers are capable of, their AB, damage, AC and loot table. Which I would argue serves in my point that they are more immersion breaking, annoying and without counter play than anything else.

Also, good luck running from archers who hit 20-30 non crits once they spawn on your face.

Shadowy Reality wrote:People have the tendency of wanting to know how exatly everything works (see the darkness thread) or be able to beat everything. I have not personally experienced these drow ambushes, but they sound really exciting, something to keep PCs on their toes.

There is no design flaw in something that is really hard to beat (asides them spawning on too low level characters). Drow ambushes are entirely optional, you don't need to beat them, you can flee and go somewhere else, or you can gather a larger group and go for revenge.

Many of us have played on the server for years, we know which spawns are where, we know their AB, their damage, their AC and their loot tables. We're very rarely in a position where we're not in control of what our PCs are engaging, don't squash down things that keep the server alive, interesting and unpredictable.

No one is saying remove them. I like them, just the amount of spawns can quickly get ridiculous not to mention some of them are imo a bit too powerful. They shouldn't be wimps, but if the spawns get to the point that they are simply annoying and death traps. People will run down there grab portals and simply portal where they need to go and avoid walking down there. As a UD and surface player it annoys me when surfacers come below and UD races go above and act like they own the place with no care in the world. I would be 100% in favor of something like this on the surface to make UD races have some caution above also.

Just maybe check and possibly tweek the archers and spawn rates.

It sounds like maybe they are a great idea that need to be scaled better. Having a surprise challenge while in a dangerous unfamiliar area is very interesting, but getting steamrolled by an impossible challenge isn't. It reminds me of when the surface's random encounter system was put in place and a dragon spawned on my level 7 character 1 map away from Burrowhome.

That said, a midlevel surface character travelling down to the underdark alone, even just 1 map away from the Outpost, is very different from a surface character walking 1 map away from a surface settlement. Probably players could be thinking about whether or not it's wise for characters to be walking around without serious precautions being taken. (Note that this sentiment and the sentiment "these encounters should be rebalanced" can both be true.)

I don't think players traveling the UD unprepared and willy nilly was ever a problem. Most of the time, they go there warded to the teeth regardless of their goal.

When I say precautions I'm not only talking about buffs. It could mean "don't go down there without a group" or something like "don't go outside the UD settlements without invis up", or something like "hire a native UDer to guide you".

I'm curious actually whether or not the drow raiders would spawn on a group of 1 surfacer and 1 UDer.

Lol, n00bs, do u even invis potion?

They do, they spawned when my character(surfacer) was in a party with an outcast.

Lorkas wrote:I'm curious actually whether or not the drow raiders would spawn on a group of 1 surfacer and 1 UDer.

I can also confirm this to be a 'yes'.