Fighter Enhancement to Gloves

[What_Evil_Lurks]

Give the fighter bonus to gloves in the form of Attack and Damage bonus. Simple.

[The Man of the Moon]

Give the fighter bonus to gloves in the form of Attack and Damage bonus. Simple.

If Mithreas granted this bonus to the fighters in all the styles of combat, already be without weapon or with them, then this is right, they must gain the enhancement with their fists (gloves or equipped gauntlets)

If the enhancement is given specifically to external weapons (different from his own fists), then I suspect that the fighters will remain as they are currently now.

[What_Evil_Lurks]

Mhm. They do not get it now. So the suggestion is that they do.

[Ecstatic]

Mm. I see a potential problem: 20 Fighter/6 Monk/4 Rogue would arguably outperform most monks in terms of unarmed damage and AC.

Unarmed monks pretty much universally use essenced hin fist gloves, for 1d20+4+feats+strength damage (average 14.5 plus bonuses) per hit.

The fighter would want to basin up a set of rainbow damage gloves for 1d8+ either 11.5 or 14 damage depending on number of elemental bonuses, averaging either 16 or 18.5 damage per hit, before factoring in strength and feats.

The characters would both benefit from monk attack progression, but the fighter would get more AB (and probably another attack per round as a result), and higher AC. That doesnt even touch on fighters being far more enchant basin friendly, or having the huge pile of bonus feats. It's a neat idea, but I'm at least initially inclined to argue that we should leave unarmed excellence to the people who go 16+ levels in monk.

[DirtyDeity]

Mm. I see a potential problem: 20 Fighter/6 Monk/4 Rogue would arguably outperform most monks in terms of unarmed damage and AC.
.

Note that more monk levels give more AC, which will likely even out with the Fighter Bonus.

Note that the same 20 monk 6 fighter will also have epic specialization.

Note that level 6 monk unarmed damage is 1d6, while level 20 monk unarmed damage is 1d20.

Also the great advantage of Perfect Self, +3 Ki Strike, speed, stunning fist and Quivering Palm, both of which can reach a decent enough DC on a high-level monk, spell resistance, Empty Body, Poison Immunity... It's a long list of fantastic bonuses that Monks get.
And they make a mountain over the hill of +3/4 damage on gloves to be implemented on Fighters.

[Ecstatic]

Alright, I mistakenly assumed that the math would be self-evident, and didnt want to clot up the thread with it, so here it goes:

Regarding AC: Monk progression bonus AC (+4 at level 20) will stack with +5 from full gear, for a total of +9. Monk progression bonus AC at 6 is +1, stacked with +4 from gear, for +9, so far so good. But the fighter heavy variant gets 1-2 extra dexterity and 2 extra wisdom out of the extra slots, not insignificant for a monk, who is already down one enchant slot due to gloves. AC advantage to the fighter, by 1-2 points.

Note: monk unarmed damage at level 6 is 1d8, which has been factored in above. So has the 1d20. Math goes as follows:

Monk 20/whatever else: uses hin fists with a +4 essence (we can ignore feats, because we assume both monks take the same feats, have the same strength, and in this case, we're even assuming they have the same sneak attack dice to make the most even comparison. The monk gets +3 AB and +0 physical damage. This puts monk damage at 1d20+4. Since 1d20 averages 10.5 damage, we get 14.5 damage per average strike. 3 AB from gloves.

Fighter with monk dip: uses basin gloves with 1d4 of each pos/neg/divine/acid. These receive
4 AB and 4 Physical damage from being a fighter. They add this to 1d8 damage, for 1d8+4d4+4 damage, before STR and feats are accounted for. The average numbers here are 4.5+10+4 = 18.5.

Assuming both monks use the very best gloves they can, 1d8+14 outstrips 1d20+4 by a lot. This is rehashing exactly the point in the previous post, so if I cannot convince you that 18.5 > 14.5, so be it

Note: Monks get +3 ki strike, for free. Fighters get +4 AB on gloves, which is superior in every way, as it actually adds to attack bonus rather than just help penetrating /+3 DR.

Note: Qpalm doesn't work on equivalent level PCs, so is most useful for pwning noobs (including Zeer).

Note: Stuns are good, but the fighter can get 10/day of them handily, and has more feats to spend gettin the DC to 47 or so, which is past what most monks can practically take.

Note: Monk SR at level 20 is 30, which is loads less helpful than it sounds. I've had multiple high level monks, take my word for it. Fighter can also gift in 32 of it.

Note: Fighter AB will be 5 points higher, maybe more.

Note: Mind immunity is easily replicated by a potion, and the fighter variant can, by back of the napkin calculations, hit F/R/W saves of +37/+39/+37 with no cross-classed spellcraft to help. This character doesn't need immunities save cases where he rolls natural 1s.

Poison immunity is useful? I guess if you scrub it up with Kensai, but why you'd take Kensai on the class that gains the most from stat potions is confusing.

I'll grant that empty body is nice, but 40 rounds of 50% concealment is not much of a reason to monk it up to the hilt.

[The Man of the Moon]

Something more interesting is:

A Monk/Figther level 25, Monk 5 COULD bypass stoneskin or prescience because getting enhancement +5... Without the requirement to get Ki Focuss feats +4 and +5

[Mithreas]

As previously stated I have no intention of supporting unarmed Fighters in this way. I find the sort of brawler characters that would result to be harmful for immersion, and while I recognize others disagree, I'm not going to enable them.