Warlock's Arcane spell failure

[one day remains]

Would it be possible to make it so that only majority warlock/Favored souls can use this feature? Currently this just allows mages to take 3 levels of warlock then go 24 sorc or somesuch to get free arcane spell failure.

[yellowcateyes]

Not sure the mage is getting the better of the deal if they're losing out on three caster levels to do this.

Especially with SR resisting dispels nowadays.

[one day remains]

4 bard 23 sorc 3 BG/Pal is actually quite a popular build.

Defensive casting ABJ makes up for lost levels as far as dispelling is concerned.

Allows you early tankiness for your mage, discipline, tumble and some skill dumping.

And as you can imagine, if you can get a 20% spell failure reduction via an enchant, it'll stack with your temp. Allowing a mage to have a +5 (with EMA) fullplate with 5% spell failure, which is nullified by the excess -5% spell failure from a large shield. Effectively allowing a mage to get 6 AC from tumble, 14 AC from his full plate. (shield doesn't really make much difference considering it's +5 AC anyway.)

So that's 20 AC at the cost of 12 points of dex and 3 cross class levels as opposed to investing in the "still spell/auto still spell" feats to get the same or 1 more point of ac. Otherwise it takes a normal mage an investment of 18 dex to get 2 less AC from your armor and if you don't cross class 3 AC less at the cost of the same amount of skill points and a couple of feats to get medium armor.

[yellowcateyes]

I don't mean getting dispelled, though that's also a factor. I mean actually dispelling other people. Having 23 caster levels on a dedicated caster is pretty crippling when SR 32 characters are pretty common.

And if you're trying to squeeze in spell penetration feats on a caster that already had to give up a bunch of feats to qualify for blackguard, good luck focusing on more than one school.

Sorc/BG has been there since the server started. But with the new spell school focus perks, the basin mechanics, and the gift system, the meta has moved on. There's a good reason it's not as popular as it used to be.

[one day remains]

... You realize of course, that while greater dispel dispel is now great, mord's is still present in the game and doesn't have a SR requirement, right? That and it's possible to reduce SR by varying amounts with spells.

Very few mages are going to dedicate all 30 levels into their mage class from a build perspective. the spell school "focus" perks are RP tools, admitably some cool ones, but teleportation and scrying while useful do not make a build "strong" and enchantment's are possible to get from elsewhere.

It's more than possible to (without being massively build competent) Invest in one or two spell schools via this method with additional bonus spells.

I'd also say in addition that 32 SR characters are either 1. Drow 2. Medium rewards 3. Druid/Clerics. All of which have their own respective weaknesses or sacrifice requirements. I'd hardly call it "common".

As far as it's not popular, I can name 4 active characters of the top of my head who have a build similar to such who are rather over the top from a strength perspective, just to show people are present who can/may use such things.

[one day remains]

Also just for the point, the BG/PAL were just examples, it can be any Heavy Armor based class and still result in the same thing. Even 26 sorc 4 bard with a single feat spent in heavy armor prof.

[yellowcateyes]

They're more than RP tools. Abjuration, for example, is probably the best PvP school focus in the game. I also wouldn't call the Evocation focus effects on epic spells to be "RP tools." Those things hurt.

Being competent in one or two spell schools is no longer sufficient when saving throws, as a whole, are now much higher. With enchanters able to squeeze in 2 attributes, universal saves, and skills on items, I'd hate to be that dinosaur who still expects to win by throwing around WoBs left and right.

Also, I think "common" applies when dealing with two of the most popular base classes, one of the most popular UD races, and a gift that's available to everyone and is a favorite of many pure mundane characters.

A sorc/bg or sorc/paladin isn't horrible. But it's not the best caster out there, currently. And a mage sacrificing three caster levels for some light/medium armor and a shield isn't much to worry about.

[one day remains]

As said above, it's more than possible to get 2 spell foci with these builds, so Abjuration (which is useful for dispels) can be taken as can epic evo (which got nerfed mildly if I recall correctly) which in itself requires 2-3 epic feats to be useful.

"2 attributes, universal saves, and skills on items" is practically impossible these days without a 5% and a magic domain deity (which are far less reliable these days).

The SR gift ISN'T available to everyone, it requires a medium reward gained by chance at the sacrifice of an epic PC. In addition to that the drow/druid/cleric/monk SR all require a heavy investment in levels and, again, Mord's exists. Which also reduce SR by 10 unless you're a monk. meaning that a level 23 mage with 3 spell pen (+6) feats has to get a 3 or higher in their casting roll to overcome a 32 SR, without mord's being included, so a 85% chance of success before anything else is involved, which is only 10% less than the max and completely nullified by 1 breach spell.

The fact that is worrying about them is their AC and possible discipline. 33 from base skills 15-20 from items and then their strength mod.
Then there's their AC. 14 from the above mentioned full-plate, 5 from a large shield, 5 from the helm, 6 from tumble, up to 20 from their dodge ac (easy to reach with a sorc, especially bg/pal based), the ten base, and 5 natural AC. That's 66 AC. For a dedicated Spell caster. That being said, that's possible now with the use of greensteel, excluding the use of a fullplate.

yellowcateyes
a mage sacrificing three caster levels for some light/medium armor and a shield isn't much to worry about.

Light/Medium armor, Skill dumping, -40% Spell failure, a shield, tumble ac, discipline, +12 HP in the case of warlocks and additional, infinite, spell casting.
Nothing wrong with 90% of it as that's just how the system works, that being said the spell failure is a perk designed to improve warlock survivability* not aid cross classers.

At any rate, the debate's rather moot. Having a free -40 Spell failure for 3 levels of investment is a rather large gift and I thought it may be worth pointing it out it's quite a large boon to people who want to use it as such. (a possible +1 AC with no Dex investment being required anymore. Or if they're a green steel mage, the same with an additional item to be enchanted).

* I assume.

[Peppermint]

Wizard 26/Bard 4 (or Wizard 27/Bard 3) is, almost without question, the best wizard build. I assume most people take this as a given at this point.

Yes, going warlock (or favored soul!) lets you wear heavy armor without penalty. This is silly.

Though Mithreas has already mentioned he intends to change this at some point in the future.

[yellowcateyes]

First of all, I'm not sure about the assumption that Temp Spell Failure Reduction stacks with permanent Spell Failure Reduction. If it does, you still get a 5% chance of spell failure using Full Plate, which is a non-trivial amount if you're wearing it all the time. If it doesn't, you're stuck with light armor or awkwardly swapping armor in and out in between buffs.

Secondly, Monk SR cannot be reduced by Mord's. I'm not so sure about racial SRs either - that merits some testing. Else, someone with experience can chime in.

Regardless, getting 60-ish AC on a CHA-based spellcaster is no more unbalanced then getting 60-ish AC on a CHA-based melee paladin, or RDD, or bard-paladin/bg. The difference is that it makes sense for the melee-oriented characters to make that kind of investment since they spend all their time in melee range. Getting that high AC on a charisma-based spellcaster comes at the cost of spellcasting ability, making you a less effective caster. Being able to face-tank solidly isn't the best use of a caster's precious feats, and comes at the cost of your primary role.

It may be different philosophies in building. But I'm not terribly worried about a caster that cuts into their casting ability for some AC.

[Peppermint]

First of all, I'm not sure about the assumption that Temp Spell Failure Reduction stacks with permanent Spell Failure Reduction. If it does, you still get a 5% chance of spell failure using Full Plate, which is a non-trivial amount if you're wearing it all the time.

It does. Thus, warlock allows a mage to cast in Adamantine Half Plate (or Chain Shirt) + Greensteel Large Shield without issue. Favored Soul allows a mage to cast in any armor.

I'm not so sure about racial SRs either - that merits some testing.

No need to test. It does reduce racial SR.

Being able to face-tank solidly isn't the best use of a caster's precious feats, and comes at the cost of your primary role.

Not feats, plural. It costs a wizard a single pre-epic feat.

This leaves a wizard with 10 pre-epic feats to spend. That's enough for two metamagic feats (e.g. empower, maximize) and four greater focuses of your choice.

[yellowcateyes]

Not feats, plural. It costs a wizard a single pre-epic feat.

This leaves a wizard with 10 pre-epic feats to spend. That's enough for two metamagic feats (e.g. empower, maximize) and four greater focuses of your choice.

Wizard/bards are different than the charisma builds discussed so far. The issue of this thread - the potential for AC increase by using cross-classed warlock armor benefits - is much less substantial for wizards. Without access to the divine CHA feats, wizards don't have the potential that sorcerer-BG/Pals do to in getting (albeit temporary) uber high AC. Trading a pre-epic feat for a Heavy Armor proficiency, then spending a lot of gold to enchant an Adamantine set, seems a reasonable trade-off for what is just a modest increase over what's already possible with Greensteel.

Wizard 26/Bard 4 (or Wizard 27/Bard 3) is, almost without question, the best wizard build. I assume most people take this as a given at this point.

I wouldn't make that assumption, but talking about this further will derail the thread.

[Preacher]

if its such an issue, make it require a 5 or 10 warlock lvl's before warlocks get it.... I'm not sure how much of an issue it is but that is because I don't have any data of how it is being used/abused.