Strength Based Rogue

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Waldo52
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Strength Based Rogue

Post by Waldo52 » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:01 pm

Could a strength based rogue be made well?

I know it's definitely playable but I want to know if it would be terribly underpowered or not.

My tentative plan is to go 5 blackguard and combine sneak attack, divine might and strength for ridiculous damage. I suspect that with full plate arnor and divine shield AC will be borderline decent.

Eyeliner
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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by Eyeliner » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:09 pm

Speaking generally I think a strength rogue gives up dex's high AC, epic dodge, sneak potential and generally slipperiness for a bruiser that won't quite have the AB or HP they need. I'm not saying it can't be done but it's one of those ideas I think a lot of us have had and realized it's not as enticing as it seems (and it's not like strength characters aren't able to do substantial damage without sneak attack).

Anyway you might try assassin instead of rogue for the -assassinate damage and invisibility and darkness shenanigans to make up for not being able to sneak, I kind of think you'll still struggle though.

xf1313
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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by xf1313 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:02 am

I have a dex rogue, frankly I think you’d play well with a strength rogue. Dex is great if there’s someone guarding you, seriously, still totally painful fighting against sneak attack immune opponents.


With skills you can hide and sneak decently, strength allowing good combat power and carry a lot of stuff. You will be able to solo a lot better, while mine cannot without shadowdancer level. Consider to start with half-elf? Or if you wish to go rogue-Black guard or rogue/ranger, low dex won’t hurt you.
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MRFTW
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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by MRFTW » Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:59 am

Rogue / BG is a very potent build.

One lesser-mentioned thing is not to neglect traps. I trapped my way to 30 after leaving Skal. Traps can single-handedly PvE for you if you can sneak. They can be a bit janky but the damage is very good for bursting targets. Sneak up to a group, drop a damage trap which will destealth you, you can then KD combo the mages or whatever in particular you're scared of.

One other thing is as a Rogue/BG you'd leave tracks unless you used a race that didn't leave tracks. I know you mention heavy armour but your sneak will be more than serviceable even with 8 DEX and you might find yourself somewhere you'd rather not have it known you were.

I like rogue/fighter over divine rogues, the damage isn't as high but the feats and gearing are much simpler.

Waldo52
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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by Waldo52 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:52 pm

So Eyeliner thinks I'll struggle a bit and the rest of you think it'll be okay in some form of another.

I'm gonna do it :D

I'll consider the assasin thing if I feel like applying for a permission token, but I also like the idea of 25 rogue for the skills.

I did think about fighter instead of BG for the feats, but come on man! Divine shield.

I thought about adamantine full plate and a tower shield with armor skin, Divine shield at base 16 CHA, a circlet of corruption and improved expertise. The dude can reach like 50 AC (53 versus good opponents) without any buffs. Not too bad for a guy with a dex score of 10 and way better damage than a traditional rogue.

AstralUniverse
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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:34 am

Rogue has no scaling with strength, has lower ab than classes who scale with strength much better. Everything in the rogue's kit (sneak attack, stealth, locks, e-dodge, other things) just screams Dex. I do not recommend playing it strength. There's no reason to pick rogue over Swashbuckler or Ranger if you are str based.
TooManyPotatoes wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:10 am
We still have to go through the tedium of unrotating all the furniture after each break-in.

Curve
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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by Curve » Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:28 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:34 am
There's no reason to pick rogue over Swashbuckler or Ranger if you are str based.
The reason is the dude wants to play a STR based rogue. What's the problem? When I first started on Arelith I went on the old ECB Guild forums and asked for a two-weapon STR based WM and they just would not help me with it. They kept saying 'you don't want to play that' or 'here is this other WM build that is way better'. When people ask for build help it can be good to tell them that another build offers more bang for the buck, but if they want to play something? Help them build that something the best it can be. That kind of thing is how new cool stuff gets found out, or recycled, or whatever.

OP, send me a PM with some info of what you'd like to play and I'll help you build it if you want. I'd sooner have my toe nails ripped off than building something publicly. Everyone seems to think they have the market cornered on building characters.

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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:02 pm

Curve wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:28 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:34 am
There's no reason to pick rogue over Swashbuckler or Ranger if you are str based.
The reason is the dude wants to play a STR based rogue. What's the problem? When I first started on Arelith I went on the old ECB Guild forums and asked for a two-weapon STR based WM and they just would not help me with it. They kept saying 'you don't want to play that' or 'here is this other WM build that is way better'. When people ask for build help it can be good to tell them that another build offers more bang for the buck, but if they want to play something? Help them build that something the best it can be. That kind of thing is how new cool stuff gets found out, or recycled, or whatever.

OP, send me a PM with some info of what you'd like to play and I'll help you build it if you want. I'd sooner have my toe nails ripped off than building something publicly. Everyone seems to think they have the market cornered on building characters.
This is the Builds and Mechanics section and I'm not going to give any one an objectively bad building advice. If the OP doesnt want a logical and good mechanical advice they wouldnt be here. This is where you SHOULD hear what is good and what is bad. You dont like it? Go to the Lore section on discord and ask for help tailoring a concept, because that's where you'll find it. STR rogue is mechanically bad, objectively, you can take it or leave it. Cheers.
TooManyPotatoes wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:10 am
We still have to go through the tedium of unrotating all the furniture after each break-in.

Curve
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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by Curve » Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:50 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:02 pm
This is the Builds and Mechanics section and I'm not going to give any one an objectively bad building advice.
This is the Builds and Mechanics section of the forums. You have decided that that means only suggesting people play one of the very few and very over played Discord meta builds because you think those are the only builds worth playing. You are wrong. There are other builds that are strong and able to handle all the PvP and PvE Arelith has to offer. The way new and exciting builds are discovered is by people willing to step away from what is normally thought of as strong and try something new. In my example above the builders at ECB thought they knew all the things there are to know about building, so they said, much like yourself, 'don't build that! Build this!' That's one way of interacting with this game's mechanics. Another way is to take what people ask you to help them build and refine it as best you can. So, if someone says I want to make a Strength based Rogue you say, 'here are some builds that might work for you or we can make the best STR Rogue that we can'. That is how I like to help people with their builds for a silly game that does not matter in the least to the world at large. In the specific of what is asked initially in this thread the only real requirements are,

-Strength based
-Has Rogue levels
-Maybe has Blackguard levels

Seems pretty easy to come up with a build that fills those three things and has decent numbers. It's really not rocket science.

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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by Ork » Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:59 am

Could try...
Half-orc Rogue 19 Knight 7 Fighter 4

STR 19 (21)
DEX 8
CON 16 (18)
WIS 8
INT 14
CHA 7

1 Rogue 1 Expertise, (Weapon Finess)
2 Rogue 2
3 Rogue 3 wf: 1h
4 Fighter 1 Ambi
5 Fighter 2 Two-weapon
6 Fighter 3 SF: Disc
7 Knight 1
8 Knight 2
9 Knight 3 Knockdown
10 Knight 4
11 Knight 5
12 Knight 6 ITWF
13 Knight 7
14 Rouge 4
15 Rogue 5 Blindfight
16 Rogue 6
17 Rogue 7
18 Rogue 8 Imp Crit
19 Rogue 9
20 Rogue 10 Crippling Strike
21 Rogue 11 Armor Skin
22 Rogue 12
23 Rogue 13 ESF: Disc
24 Rogue 14 Prowess
25 Rogue 15
26 Rogue 16
27 Rogue 17 EWF: 1h
28 Rogue 18
29 Rogue 19
30 Fighter 4 WS, EWS

AB: 22 BAB + 15 STR + 3 WF + 5 ENCH + 1 PW + 2 Rally + 2 Oath - 2 DW = 48 (50 w/ Shield)
AC: 10 + 1 DEX + 11 HP + 1 boots + 1 MA + 4 Bark + 4 Haste + 6 Tumble + 3 Helm + 2 AS + 7 Shield = 50
Remember you're probably negating around 10 AC when you attack from stealth. You need to get back to stealth real bad, and god help you if you're fighting a spot-bot, but it could work. I was able to maximize all skills I need + appraise, leadership, search, lore and craft mastery. Weaponmaster rogue is probably hella better tho. (rogue 12, wm 5, fighter 3 pre-epic).

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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by Skibbles » Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:20 pm

Come to think of it, on orc's mention of rogue/WM, I've seen them used to pretty devastating effect in the past.

Does your rogue build need to be majority rogue, or just have the persona of a rogue?

I think even with a smaller rogue dip and some skill point assignment you can be a 'rogue' quite easily.

As others have mentioned, with str as the primary Stat, you will be crippled in every department that a rogue is most strong in - particularly their incredibly powerful grenades which are linked to DEX.

The grenade DC will be so low that taking majority rogue may feel very disappointing, and simply not be worth it, as well as a lack of access to blinding speed and the cooldown buff for rogues will be gone too.
"By this point, some of you might be wondering how drow society has survived at all.

The truth is, it can't. Drow society is absolutely and utterly nonviable."
-Drow of the Underdark, pg. 26

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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:39 pm

Curve wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:50 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:02 pm
This is the Builds and Mechanics section and I'm not going to give any one an objectively bad building advice.
This is the Builds and Mechanics section of the forums. You have decided that that means only suggesting people play one of the very few and very over played Discord meta builds because you think those are the only builds worth playing. You are wrong. There are other builds that are strong and able to handle all the PvP and PvE Arelith has to offer. The way new and exciting builds are discovered is by people willing to step away from what is normally thought of as strong and try something new. In my example above the builders at ECB thought they knew all the things there are to know about building, so they said, much like yourself, 'don't build that! Build this!' That's one way of interacting with this game's mechanics. Another way is to take what people ask you to help them build and refine it as best you can. So, if someone says I want to make a Strength based Rogue you say, 'here are some builds that might work for you or we can make the best STR Rogue that we can'. That is how I like to help people with their builds for a silly game that does not matter in the least to the world at large. In the specific of what is asked initially in this thread the only real requirements are,

-Strength based
-Has Rogue levels
-Maybe has Blackguard levels

Seems pretty easy to come up with a build that fills those three things and has decent numbers. It's really not rocket science.
You're wrong and your point of view is destructive to the server and creates a situation where everyone is bad except a selected few "pros" that literally no one can kill. We've been in Dark Ages before I dont want to see it happening again. So I say one more time, I'm not going to give people bad build advice in the BUILDS THE MECHANICS section where people are expected to receive good and objective mechanical advice that has nothing to do with theme or lore.
TooManyPotatoes wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:10 am
We still have to go through the tedium of unrotating all the furniture after each break-in.

Curve
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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by Curve » Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:46 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:39 pm
You're wrong and your point of view is destructive to the server and creates a situation where everyone is bad except a selected few "pros" that literally no one can kill. We've been in Dark Ages before I dont want to see it happening again. So I say one more time, I'm not going to give people bad build advice in the BUILDS THE MECHANICS section where people are expected to receive good and objective mechanical advice that has nothing to do with theme or lore.
Your point of view is very intense. There is a difference between suggesting someone play a really bad build, suggesting they play something they are not asking for, and just making them the best version of what they are asking for.

The OP asked for a Strength based Rogue with some Blackguard levels but seemed to be focused on the STR Rogue part. If I were to be helping the OP I would say,

Hey pal, looks like you want to play a STR Rogue with some Blackguard or some other form of STR Rogue. Here are my suggestions:

1) FTR/BG/ROG. This is a standard sword and shield build. Some of the highlights are,

-49-50 walking AB depending on race and weapon chosen. Even more if you consider Taunt and consumables.
-Good damage because of Divine Might and WS/EWS and Overwhelming Critical.
-Decent AC with decent immunities due to the neat armor and shields that have been added to the server.
-Mega saves from a lot of free feats and CHA to saving throws.
-All the skills you need.

You could use a multitude of neat weapons. From rapier to elf longsword to dwarf axe. The build gets enough skill points for basic needed things plus you can even fit in hide and move silently if that is part of the concept you want to play. I have, in the past played characters who swap between plate mail (when I am killing things or going into heavy PvP) and leather armor with stealth bonuses (for sneaking missions). I'm no super-duper gamer, but I was able to do exceedingly well in PvE and killed one thousand other players with a build that did that. It was really fun.

or blablabla more builds.

I would go on to suggest other builds. I would suggest builds that fill the criteria the person who is going to play the build asked for and all of my suggestions would have comparable numbers to 'meta' builds. Maybe they would not be 55AB psychopath builds, but they would be good and solid builds.

Now, if the player said: "I WANT TO PLAY A FREAKY MONSTER BUILD WHO HAS ALL THE HIGHEST NUMBERS AND THE BEST TRICKS BECAUSE MY CONCEPT IS A KILLER WHO KILLS EVERYONE AND DESTROYS HER ENEMIES AND I WILL HAVE A MILLION ENEMIES BECAUSE I MAKE THE MOST ROLEPLAY AND DO THE MOST RPRing OF ALL!" Then my suggestions might be different.

At the end of the day what I want is to help people with is making the concept they want to play into a build that is strong and solid, and they will enjoy. If you want to read that as me saying I am telling people to play a wizard with 8 int then you would be wrong. Let's remember that this game is very old and maybe, just maybe other people know what they are talking about before freaking out and saying people's point of view is destructive to the server.

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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by Ork » Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:16 pm

I'd be very careful calling out str rogue as bad because you might find its actually good. :>

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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by Duchess Says » Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:34 pm

I don't see why it's a problem to discuss builds that aren't top tier if you don't present them as such. The sheer negativity you see in build discussions about anything that isn't mean to dominate in PVP tournaments isn't nearly as healthy or constructive as you think it is. Builds that offer utility to parties or that are just a blast to play ought to be part of the discussion even in this precious builds and mechanics session and by playing them people might grow to know the game better and appreciate what makes those top tier builds work.

Also, the caveat I never see with these top tier builds is that you also have to gear them and in most cases max out the runic enchantments before they can be competitive and that's not in the cards for a lot of players especially new and casual-- doing so requires money and connections and lots and lots of time. If someone just wants a character that's viable for soloing, being helpful in a party and occasional pvp (maybe not tournaments but being able to handle group vs group or being able to escape a hostile situation) they should absolutely be given helpful advice.

Waldo52
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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by Waldo52 » Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:07 pm

Thank you for all the responses and discussion. The irony is that this is a sort of transient/temporary level-a-friend character. While I've enjoyed the role play and dying to goblins I almost feel like some of the posters here are more invested in this thread than I am in the actual character.

After the first couple responses I got a sense that the concept would be viable, if not super optimal. And that was pretty much all I was hoping to hear.

I'd like to address this whole stink about optimization: while I respect everyone participating in this discussion, these power builds are incredibly lame.

Sure, on the mechanical and PvP side of things this is a game about exploiting synergies to suck less. Having weak characters is lame unless you're doing a commoner or pure RP character. But there comes a point where your untouchable monk or druid just breaks the spirit of the game and becomes unsportsmanlike.

I think the best attitude towards optimizing characters is a common sense self regulating approach. Take something with decent (but not particularly great) potential and build it as powerfully as possible, or take an uber build and tone it down by taking fun flavor options.

I've mentioned in other threads for example how when I was designing my main character (a dxterity based rogue/bg, now 30) I was pushed towards divine might/shield. This was a long time before the epic dodge/divine shield nerf, so there was a ton of potential for this combination.

Honestly, the thought of having crazy high AC and auto-dodging an enemy's first hit while stunning and dazing them and laughing in their face almost made me vomit. I found it unethical.

I still took epic Dodge and blinding speed, I had crippling strike and 14d6 sneak attack. I still had grenades. I won a fair share of fights and always performed well in late epics, with the exception of failing my save against a stunning spell or fighting any monk. I was decently powerful, situationally very powerful. But there was always that inner voice telling me not to get too greedy.

A funny thing happened later on. That divine shield/epic dodge nerf I mentioned before hit the game and a lot of people who were sitting on very overpowered characters got hit hard. Meanwhile my above average but not over the top character was still doing fine.

That's one of the problems with chasing uber tier builds. If you don't feel that pang of conscience and decide to regulate yourself the devs will eventually step in and do the right thing for you.

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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:23 am

Curve wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:46 pm
1) FTR/BG/ROG. This is a standard sword and shield build. Some of the highlights are,

-49-50 walking AB depending on race and weapon chosen. Even more if you consider Taunt and consumables.
-Good damage because of Divine Might and WS/EWS and Overwhelming Critical.
-Decent AC with decent immunities due to the neat armor and shields that have been added to the server.
-Mega saves from a lot of free feats and CHA to saving throws.
-All the skills you need.
Your words are empty. Show us the spreadsheet of this or it didnt happen.
TooManyPotatoes wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:10 am
We still have to go through the tedium of unrotating all the furniture after each break-in.

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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by Dr. B » Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:02 am

Waldo52 wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:07 pm
I found it unethical.
I hope you're not suggesting that when you lose to someone because they have a superior build it means they've wronged you, because that would be ridiculous.

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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by Curve » Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:27 pm

Sure, I’ll upload it when I’m at a computer.

Waldo52
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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by Waldo52 » Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:23 am

Dr. B wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:02 am
Waldo52 wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:07 pm
I found it unethical.
I hope you're not suggesting that when you lose to someone because they have a superior build it means they've wronged you, because that would be ridiculous.
I don't think anyone has the right to be mad when his role play focused rogue/wizard/cleric split character gets steamrolled by a decently built opponent. We shouldn't all be playing weak characters in an effort to make everyone feel equal and relevant.

Still, when devs/DMs feel the need to chime in on the unkillable monk issue you know there's a problem. Ethics will always be subjective but I think there's a difference between using a solid build and an invincible demi-god.

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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by Cabarcos » Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:41 am

I think it really depends on what you want. I have made a lot of characters and none of them had an optimal build. I start with an idea and the build develops around it. I usually make changes on the go as I play and level up.
The last one is at level 28, my highest, is mainly a rogue with some ranger levels.
The people that like to do optimal builds will run scared if they saw the build.
It makes sense to me and it's a good one for me, and that's the important thing for me.
I don't make them thinking about PvP, I just think about what I want to be able to do with him and what feels right in terms of RP (for me, I can be mistaken), of the idea of the character I have.
Just to give you an idea, the final stats should be (24 Rogue/6 Ranger):
Str 18
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 14
Cha 12

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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by Void » Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:01 pm

Late to the party, but I'll chime in.

Desire to have a full plate imples that you'd want Blackguard or a dip into something that grants armor feats.

Str-based rogue would be unorthodox because the mechanics were tweaked to STRONGLY encourage characters to go for a dex builds. I mean there are abilities to get back lost AC, and Epic Dodge/Blinding Speed require high dex. So a Str Rogue would be an odd brawler with a low-ish AB and likely lower AC.

However, you'd still have your bombs, and truckload of skillpoints. So I suppose you could even try to forego stealth and invest into something like leadership.

The end result is likely going to be challenging to play, though.
Last edited by Void on Sun Dec 12, 2021 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by Cabarcos » Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:16 pm

Void wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:01 pm
Late to the party, but I'll chime in.

Desire to have a full plate implies that you'd want Blackguard or a dip into something that grants armor feats.

Str-based rogue would be unorthodox because the mechanics were tweaked to STRONGLY encourage characters to go for a dex builds. I mean there are abilities to get back lost AC, and Epic Dodge/Blinding Speed require high dex. So a Str Rogue would be an odd brawler with a low-ish AB and likely lower AC.

However, you'd still have your bombs, and truckload of hitpoints. So I suppose you could even try to forego stealth and invest into something like leadership.

The end result is likely going to be challenging to play, though.
Well explained, and that can be part of the fun. For me at least, no challenge means no fun.
A character can be unorthodox but even so quite powerful.
A build can give you some good ideas, and you can adapt it to what you want, or you can follow it to the letter. It depends on personal taste. If you are new to this it will probably be better to follow one, or you can feel powerless.

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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by Curve » Sun Dec 12, 2021 9:37 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:23 am
Your words are empty. Show us the spreadsheet of this or it didnt happen.
Here.
24FTR/3/BG/3ROG
https://snipboard.io/gl67h2.jpg
Skills are maxed Discipline, Hide, Move Silently, Lore, Taunt, Tumble, UMD. 1 point in Traps and Locks, 21 points to spare.

The build can be shifted around pretty simple to consider people's particulars. For example:

5ROG/22FTR/3BG: Starts with Rogue with a couple skill dumps through out the leveling process. More skills, one more sneak dice at the cost of one ab and one feat.

Some ability score tinkering could get you Two Weapon fighting, more skills, more dex, whatever. This would come at the cost of a point or two of AB more than likely.

Weapon choice is on you. Elf sword or dwarf axe gives 49 walking ab. You could go for a weapon focus that allows a sword and board and a two-handed option. That could be cool for using sword and board when in plate armor and using the two-hander when sneaking.

Gearing is pretty easy with runes. I would make a cheap set of Discipline tri-stat gear for wearing plate and then make some sneaking gear for when you are in that mode. You will never be the best sneak in the world, but you will be able to get numbers in the 50s. If you want more sneak at the cost of PvP power, you can swap ESF: Discipline for ESF: Sneaks.

Besides, if a player does not have detection skilled 30 h/ms is the same as 10, 000 h/ms.

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Re: Strength Based Rogue

Post by Eyeliner » Sun Dec 12, 2021 9:58 pm

Grenade DCs are dex based, some will still be quite good but I'd check the specifics before getting too excited about using them on a strength-based rogue.

Anyway I shouldn't have been negative if it's something you really want to do... I thought it was just a "would it work" kind of question. Rogue/BG does seem viable enough so good luck if you go that way.

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