Gnome build - viable?

[ShamanCZ]

Hi,
I'm new here.
I apologize for bad English, I am still learning.

I prepare this build:

Gnome 17 barbarian / 7 sorcerer / 6 Shadowdancer
Ability:
Str: 13
Dex:13
Con: 16
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 13

Gifts:
+2 str
+2 con
+hide and move silently
Path:
Path of the True Flame

1) Sorcerer - Spell focus Divination
2) Sorcerer
3) Sorcerer - extend spell
4) Barbarian (STR +1 -> 16)
5) Barbarian
6) Barbarian - Blind fight
7) Sorcerer
8) Sorcerer (CON +1 -> 19)
9) Sorcerer - Greater spell focus - divination
10)Barbarian
11)Barbarian
12)Barbarian - Dodge, (CON +1 -> 20)
13)Barbarian
14)Barbarian
15)Barbarian - Mobility
16)Barbarian - (CON +1 -> 21)
17)Barbarian - (Prerequisites for shadowdancer - 10 hide, 8 ms, 5 tumble)
18)Shadowdancer - Improved critical - Scimitar
19)Shadowdancer
20)Shadowdancer (CON +1 -> 22)
21)Shadowdancer - Epic skill focus - Hide
22)Shadowdancer
23)Barbarian
24)Barbarian (CON +1 -> 23), Epic skill focus - move silently
25)Barbarian
26)Barbarian
27)Barbarian - Terrifying rage
28)Sorcerer - max spellcraft
29)Shadowdancer - max hide, max move silently, 30 tumble
30)Barbarian - max intimidate, Epic skill focus - intimidate

Is that build correct? (I think I read everything but for sure.)

Is it viable?

And finally - spell focus divination has many features (Examine, Deck of Stars, -investigate, Detect Evil,...). Can I use all of them with True Flame sorcerer?

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

The build looks doable. Off-hand;

Change the true flame levels for wizard levels unless infinite DC 14 fireballs for 7d6 (half on save) fire damage really excites you. Drop your charisma by 3 down to 10, increase your STR and INT both to 14, gain improved invisibility and stoneskin, in addition to haste. Specialize for an extra spell per level- I'd recomment transmutation, since you won't be needing conjuration spells, and thematically, you'll be casting plenty of transmutations with your buffs.


You'll also gain scribe scroll and an extra metamagic feat- I recommend SF: Enchantment for a nice little quality of life boost, myself.

However, I have to ask- what is the point of putting your con so high if not taking Epic DR feats? More specifically, why not divert some of those extra points into strength or dex? Having barbarian as your base martial class will, I believe, restrict you to the medium armor category, so you're definitely going to want that +2 dex modifier.

[miesny_jez]

Looks intriguing.. though I would fear the final AB on such build.
You may end up not being able to hit anything, nor being able to damage with spells anything (due to SR).

Check Your AB progression in such build i know its Barbarian so relying on Biteback but seeing ending ST 16 on a melee build with an uneven mix of 3/4 classes in before lvl 20 does rise concerns with ability to hit things.

Maybe take Wizard and Craft Potion on the bonus feat to supplement Your AB with True Strike potions ?

[High Primate]

The build looks doable.

Oh god. No.

Edit:

I can think of a build that will be much, much handier with a gonne than this, and it is as follows:

20 Monk/10 rogue, dex-based with weapon finesse and epic dodge.

The build isn't even designed with a gonne in mind, but it will do everything better than the build you've posted and more.

You'll have higher ranged touch attack AB. You'll have better saves, AC, epic dodge, and be notoriously hard to hit. You'll be incredibly fast and able to hit and run seemlessly with the gonne without being caught by your opponent.

The build you've proposed has none of those things. I won't spend time critiquing it point-by-point: it wastes feats, has low AC, no will save, and won't be able to hit characters with high dodge AC using the gonne, making it bad even at what it's intended to do. It won't be able to use any scrolls or wands that aren't evocation. It'll die handily in PvP the moment someone hits it with dominate person, or in a number of other ways. With mediocre discipline and virtually no AC, it can be KD'd into the stone-age.

Is there a more optimal gonne-build than a 20 monk/10 rogue? Maybe. But relative to the build the OP has posted, there's no comparison.

[Baron Saturday]

The build looks doable.

Oh god. No.

Edit:

I can think of a build that will be much, much handier with a gonne than this, and it is as follows:

20 Monk/10 rogue, dex-based with weapon finesse and epic dodge.

The build isn't even designed with a gonne in mind, but it will do everything better than the build you've posted and more.

You'll have higher ranged touch attack AB. You'll have better saves, AC, epic dodge, and be notoriously hard to hit. You'll be incredibly fast and able to hit and run seemlessly with the gonne without being caught by your opponent.

The build you've proposed has none of those things. I won't spend time critiquing it point-by-point: it wastes feats, has low AC, no will save, and won't be able to hit characters with high dodge AC using the gonne, making it bad even at what it's intended to do. It'll die handily in PvP the moment someone hits it with dominate person, or in a number of other ways. With mediocre discipline and virtually no AC, it can be KD'd into the stone-age.

Is there a more optimal gonne-build than a 20 monk/10 rogue? Maybe. But relative to the build the OP has posted, there's no comparison.

Gnome. Not gonne.

[High Primate]

Oh, whoops. I really need new glasses. X(

I still think that build is bad though. It's not going to be particularly good at anything except taking hits, and dishing out little in return.

[Baron Saturday]

Oh, whoops. I really need new glasses. X(

I still think that build is bad though. It's not going to be particularly good at anything except taking hits, and dishing out little in return.

I mean I agree, I would not call this build viable.

My main problem with it is, I don't understand what it's supposed to do. How do you want to fight? It would be much easier to give suggestions if I understood what about this build interests you.

[yellowcateyes]

Is that build correct?

Technically, the build is valid.

Is it viable?

The short answer is no.

And finally - spell focus divination has many features (Examine, Deck of Stars, -investigate, Detect Evil,...). Can I use all of them with True Flame sorcerer?

RP perks that gain bonuses from focii in Divination should work even for True Flame sorcerers. The only divination perk that requires an actual casting of a divination spell is -scry.

Mind, you won't get access to Detect Evil without Paladin or Harper Paragon levels.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I feel like he's aiming to take advantage of the fact that he has biteback with a ton of HP, but that's counter-intuitive, because you're taking terrifying rage, and if bite-back is the focus of your objective, you don't want to take any actions that stop you from getting hit. (This is a discussion involving just you, not a party).

In a party, it's pretty cool. You run up with terrifying rage, and let your party mop up everything that's feared while you isolate anything that doesn't book it. Tactically speaking the premise seems amazing and if it outlasts you in the fight your clarity is going to drop at some point, which would be GG if he could actually get close enough to hit you with anything.

Not that it is a gonne build, btw, but I'm pretty sure feared creatures that are just standing around are flat-footed and lose their dex ac- which means he could totally pick them off with a gonne after fearing them.

By the way, High Primate. I'd like to point out that, interestingly enough, while the monk build you propose is immune to the fear effect, I am about 99.9% certain that if he switched to wizard, and started combat off with haste, flame-shield, it would die from hitting him before it broke through his HP pool (epic dodge doesn't work on damage shields)!

You may introduce a breaching scroll/wand into this argument, but for the sake of equality assuming you having that assumes he has replacement wards as well.

The net result is that if the enemy is breaching, they aren't attacking, and he can re-cast his buffs. When the enemy stops breaching and starts attacking, they're taking more damage than they're dealing out.

This is also why I asked- where's the Epic DR, man?

IMO, keep the skill focus terrifying rage, ditch skill focus hide and move silent. Pick up two Epic DR feats. Getting stealth gear isn't that hard, and a couple of pieces will get you past 90% of everyone who isn't dedicated to detection at max ranks anyway.

[ShamanCZ]

It's build for "assassin style" fight.
Gnome has +2 ab with scimitar (Two-handed weapon), +1 from Small stature. So I think AB isn't bad at all.


The core of this build is Infinite Extended Darkness from True Flame Sorcerer and focusing on melee damage.

And I can ignore cooldown of Hide in plain sight in darkness.

[One Two Three Five]

...okay so let me get this straight. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this being some weird troll thing.

This is bad. It's not viable, and you in all likelihood wont get past level 6.
You've decided to use true flame sorcerer to fight in spammed darkness globes. The classes you've chosen for this are sorcerer, barbarian, shadowdancer. Each of these classes, save Sometimes SD, want you to have as many levels in that one class as possible: 20 barb, 24+ sorc, 13 SD, etc. So, that's a problem.

You start with 15 strength, 18 con. Your strength goes up, apparently, by 1 point the entire build.
So, point by point.
On 'actually hitting things,' you wont:
AB: 3 strength bonus, 6 bonus from strength gear, drunkenness, and someone casting empowered bulls on what will be, no hyperbole, the most useless member of any party. 9 from strength.

BaB: You take six sorcerer levels pre-epic (why?), 3 shadowdancer, and 11 barb. 3+2+11.
16. So, I GUESS you'll get 4 APR. 5 from epic levels. 21.

Feats: You don't actually take weapon focus feats in this build. So, none of that.

So, comparison to some uh, other setups you could've done.
Final AB: 9+21+3 (gsteel or damask scimitar): 33 (36 with gnome and twohand bonus)
Final Monk/Rogue/SD AB: 20+14 (dex)+3 weapon foci+3 gloves: 40 (43, see above)
An Actual Barb: 25+10 (str, give or take)+3 foci+3 sword: 41 (44, etc)
WM: 25+13ish?+3 foci+3 sword+1 superior focus+1 epic prowess: 46? (49)

Battleclerics will go a bit higher. Around 50 or so, generally. So, you don't have the AB to be a concern. Compare to AC on monsters (and pcs) that can easily hit 40-70+. So you'll air swing.

On tactics:
Infinite extended darkness sounds decent until you realize this server is full of people with UMD ranks, ultravision wands, etc. You're actually crippling yourself, because true flames can't cast ultravision themselves. Not from wands, potions, items. So you're giving yourself a 25% miss chance on top of already abysmal AB.

As well, since you can't cast any spells yourself, you either rely on everyone around you to carry you and politely ignore the fact that you make fights demonstrably harder. How? Everyone you party with now needs to carry a UV wand or slot enough uv for everyone, because otherwise your primary tactic is useless. So that's resources wasted.

On Stealth:
There was a term back in Bastions of War called 'junk stealth,' and it referred to a character that would get, basically, not even the real bare minimum amount of stealth to not get detected. It relied on other characters (and in Arelith's case, monsters) both not having detection skills, AND rolling low on detection checks. This doesn't really work, on Arelith. You have what I'd term as junk stealth. Yes, you took epic focuses. 43 hide/ms is bad. Sorry. Other builds with low stealth can, you know, buff their dex, buy wands of camo, mass camo, one with the land.. But you took true flame, and can't do that.

On Dying Constantly
You've basically invented a Worse Kensai. It can't use any magic items that are, in any way, useful. It doesn't get UMD to equip off-class/race items to help with its gaps, it doesn't get permahaste, saves vs spells.. So, that's already bad.

Your AC will be garbage. 6 from tumble, 8? total? from medium armor (you didn't take heavy prof), 10 base, 3 from a helmet. I guess gnome maybe gets ac but lets pretend they get ~five from being a gnome. With this amazing, made up AC I gave you, you get 32. At level 30.

I have a level 15 cleric that gets 45 ac, like, walking around, for comparison. Pure cleric. No tumble, or other shenanigans. 50+ with the 'lights running' so to speak.

No hyperbole, you are going to get absolutely wrecked from here to Kara-tur from level 3 to 30.

On Concept:
You took the idea of 'assassin style' fighting: Popping out of stealth, dropping someone before they can respond, and restealthing...
And decided instead of rogue, assassin, shadowdancer, monk, ranger, hell, bard- God, even a 25 trueflame/5 shadowdancer that dropped g-ruin/hellball/IGMS on people from stealth would be better- to choose a constitution-based barbarian with one of the most easily countered spells in the game as their primary means of combat.

On this being a joke post:
like, is it though? Seriously, is it? This is, again, like, a worse version of kensai, a class path that's, like, an ill-advised joke from the dev team at best, and an intentionally left in trap for new players at worst (sorry guys, luv you).

You don't get AB, you don't get damage, you don't get stealth, you don't get AC, and- and this is the kicker for me, really-

You made a biteback barbarian that theoretically fights in darkness, making it so enemies can't hit you ANYWAY, and instead run off across the map to gank your party members.

Better versions of this build:
Monk/SD/Rogue: The sneak attacking
Sorcerer/SD: The stealth mage thing
Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue: The barbarian you were trying to build

[Baron Saturday]

...okay so let me get this straight. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this being some weird troll thing.

This is bad. It's not viable, and you in all likelihood wont get past level 6.
You've decided to use true flame sorcerer to fight in spammed darkness globes. The classes you've chosen for this are sorcerer, barbarian, shadowdancer. Each of these classes, save Sometimes SD, want you to have as many levels in that one class as possible: 20 barb, 24+ sorc, 13 SD, etc. So, that's a problem.

You start with 15 strength, 18 con. Your strength goes up, apparently, by 1 point the entire build.
So, point by point.
On 'actually hitting things,' you wont:
AB: 3 strength bonus, 6 bonus from strength gear, drunkenness, and someone casting empowered bulls on what will be, no hyperbole, the most useless member of any party. 9 from strength.

BaB: You take six sorcerer levels pre-epic (why?), 3 shadowdancer, and 11 barb. 3+2+11.
16. So, I GUESS you'll get 4 APR. 5 from epic levels. 21.

Feats: You don't actually take weapon focus feats in this build. So, none of that.

So, comparison to some uh, other setups you could've done.
Final AB: 9+21+3 (gsteel or damask scimitar): 33 (36 with gnome and twohand bonus)
Final Monk/Rogue/SD AB: 20+14 (dex)+3 weapon foci+3 gloves: 40 (43, see above)
An Actual Barb: 25+10 (str, give or take)+3 foci+3 sword: 41 (44, etc)
WM: 25+13ish?+3 foci+3 sword+1 superior focus+1 epic prowess: 46? (49)

Battleclerics will go a bit higher. Around 50 or so, generally. So, you don't have the AB to be a concern. Compare to AC on monsters (and pcs) that can easily hit 40-70+. So you'll air swing.

On tactics:
Infinite extended darkness sounds decent until you realize this server is full of people with UMD ranks, ultravision wands, etc. You're actually crippling yourself, because true flames can't cast ultravision themselves. Not from wands, potions, items. So you're giving yourself a 25% miss chance on top of already abysmal AB.

As well, since you can't cast any spells yourself, you either rely on everyone around you to carry you and politely ignore the fact that you make fights demonstrably harder. How? Everyone you party with now needs to carry a UV wand or slot enough uv for everyone, because otherwise your primary tactic is useless. So that's resources wasted.

On Stealth:
There was a term back in Bastions of War called 'junk stealth,' and it referred to a character that would get, basically, not even the real bare minimum amount of stealth to not get detected. It relied on other characters (and in Arelith's case, monsters) both not having detection skills, AND rolling low on detection checks. This doesn't really work, on Arelith. You have what I'd term as junk stealth. Yes, you took epic focuses. 43 hide/ms is bad. Sorry. Other builds with low stealth can, you know, buff their dex, buy wands of camo, mass camo, one with the land.. But you took true flame, and can't do that.

On Dying Constantly
You've basically invented a Worse Kensai. It can't use any magic items that are, in any way, useful. It doesn't get UMD to equip off-class/race items to help with its gaps, it doesn't get permahaste, saves vs spells.. So, that's already bad.

Your AC will be garbage. 6 from tumble, 8? total? from medium armor (you didn't take heavy prof), 10 base, 3 from a helmet. I guess gnome maybe gets ac but lets pretend they get ~five from being a gnome. With this amazing, made up AC I gave you, you get 32. At level 30.

I have a level 15 cleric that gets 45 ac, like, walking around, for comparison. Pure cleric. No tumble, or other shenanigans. 50+ with the 'lights running' so to speak.

No hyperbole, you are going to get absolutely wrecked from here to Kara-tur from level 3 to 30.

On Concept:
You took the idea of 'assassin style' fighting: Popping out of stealth, dropping someone before they can respond, and restealthing...
And decided instead of rogue, assassin, shadowdancer, monk, ranger, hell, bard- God, even a 25 trueflame/5 shadowdancer that dropped g-ruin/hellball/IGMS on people from stealth would be better- to choose a constitution-based barbarian with one of the most easily countered spells in the game as their primary means of combat.

On this being a joke post:
like, is it though? Seriously, is it? This is, again, like, a worse version of kensai, a class path that's, like, an ill-advised joke from the dev team at best, and an intentionally left in trap for new players at worst (sorry guys, luv you).

You don't get AB, you don't get damage, you don't get stealth, you don't get AC, and- and this is the kicker for me, really-

You made a biteback barbarian that theoretically fights in darkness, making it so enemies can't hit you ANYWAY, and instead run off across the map to gank your party members.

Better versions of this build:
Monk/SD/Rogue: The sneak attacking
Sorcerer/SD: The stealth mage thing
Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue: The barbarian you were trying to build

Deep breaths, man. Everyone starts somewhere when learning how to build. My first character was a melee-focused rogue/sorcerer, even level split, and so help me I thought it was good (it wasn't).

That said. ShamanCZ, 1235 is right. To give you something to compare to, most melee-focused classes will want at least 40 AB at level 30. You want your final AC into the 50s, preferably higher. While I am all for trying strange and different builds, I think you will have such a hard time getting this to work that you just... won't have any fun.

I highly recommend taking a look at this thread and trying one of the barbarian builds there. All of them include 3 levels of rogue (which you could move to pre-epic levels and still be okay), which means the UMD skill, meaning you could cast darkness from wands (these are fairly easy to find in stores, and not super expensive).

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

The amount of condescension that drips off people who are being 'helpful' when it comes to builds on this server, and the fact that they never get called out for it, never fails to amaze me.

It's also mind-boggling how when people say "is this viable" these same people's response is to rage out and go "OMG it's not optimal you must be trolling, let me tell you why you're stupid/bad at the game." Viable means you can manage. It doesn't mean it's easy, it doesn't mean you're going to stomp, it doesn't even mean it's going to be good.

I don't normally take the path of being antagonistic and making the problem worse, but since I'm being far nicer than the stereotypical "your build should die in a fire" posts that pervade these forums, I feel like I'm making a valid point- these discussions are often so toxic that I sigh while posting responses.

This should be labelled the "make me feel bad for wanting to try new things" forum. It should have a disclaimer at the top saying that basic courtesy isn't required here like it is in the other forums.

Edit - Note; I am not saying every response in this thread is like this- but we're not supposed to single people out- so if my post makes you feel a little guilty, you should consider why that is- and if my post right here makes you angry, then my soul feasts on your rage.

[Peppermint]

Yeah, I agree that One Two Three Five's tone was a little condescending. He's not wrong, though. This build is not in any way, shape, or form viable.

Don't get me wrong. I've played plenty of suboptimal builds. I love suboptimal builds. My longest lasting character on Arelith was a rogue with an amazing stat spread, including an 8 constitution, 20 intelligence, and 18 wisdom. Oh, and then I invested into charisma when I leveled up because "it suited my character's development". And I took super useful feats like "Skill Focus: Lore".

But this isn't a guy asking if his build looks fun or suits his character concept. He's asking if his build is viable. And the short answer is this: no, it's not. Even by the standards of gimmicky RP builds, it's very, very, bad.

Telling him that it's "good" and to "have fun with it" may seem the nice thing to do at first blush, because hey, it's positive -- but it's likely going to lead to a ton of disappointment. If he's expecting to perform reasonably well in PvE, well, the sad reality is that he won't. It's perfectly fine if he wants to play this build for roleplay, or whatever. But that's not what he's asking, and there's no shame in helping him make an informed choice.

[High Primate]

The amount of condescension that drips off people who are being 'helpful' when it comes to builds on this server, and the fact that they never get called out for it, never fails to amaze me.

On the topic of call-outs, shame on you for actually encouraging this guy to go with this build. It would have delivered one of the worst gameplay experiences ever.

[Cortex]

You'd probably yield better results swapping sorcerer with fiend warlock for infinite darkness if you really want to go through with it. At least that way you have access to hide/MS (reqs for SD), tumble AC, and UMD, also Ultravision as a spell. Though it'd probably still be too awkward of a gimmick to work well.

Personally, I also wouldn't spend divination focuses on an already gimped build as well.