Unarmed Gnoll (Monk/SD/Rogue?)

[PUNCHDOG]

Hi all. I'm looking for a nice unarmed gnoll to go around a punch things with.

Right now I'm thinking something along the lines of 20Monk/5SD/5Rogue (preepic:16Monk/3Rogue/1SD). I'm a bit concerned about the spread. I'm thinking it will have to look something like DEX/wis/str, but neither Int nor Con will be able to be complete dumps either.

Combat will very likely rely on kiting, but even with ton of attacks per round, I'm not sure where any damage will come from. How reliable is a monk's stunning fist? I haven't seen it mentioned on the forums for a while.

Between monk speed, HiPS, UMD, dex/wis AC, monk sweets, and ED I don't think that survivability will be a huge issue, but please let me know if I'm wrong on that too.

Also, how good is pickpocket for XP/loot? I've read about it on the wiki, but literally never seen it mentioned on the forums.

[gilescorey]

Right now I'm thinking something along the lines of 20Monk/5SD/5Rogue

Fairly cookie cutter high-monk HIPS build - and for good reason!

(preepic:16Monk/3Rogue/1SD).

Do not do this, you will lose AB unnecessarily. Do 3 rogue (for max number of skill points), into 12 monk, into four SD, into 1 more rogue at 20. At 21, get your fifth and final level of SD, and start pumping up your monk some more until you have nineteen levels of monk and your character level is 28 (19mo/5sd/4rog). Now finish off your rogue levels with the fifth at 29, and capstone your character at 30 with your 20th level of monk.

I'm a bit concerned about the spread. I'm thinking it will have to look something like DEX/wis/str, but neither Int nor Con will be able to be complete dumps either.

Don't worry about STR. Leave it at minimum. Take 17 DEX, have at least 13 INT (don't go any higher than 14), then put a bit into WIS and a bit into CON. Make sure you have an even number in both scores.

Combat will very likely rely on kiting, but even with ton of attacks per round, I'm not sure where any damage will come from. How reliable is a monk's stunning fist? I haven't seen it mentioned on the forums for a while.

It's a fortitude save, so it depends on how good/what level your target is. And your damage comes mostly from chaining stun fists & whittling down with sneak damage. Fist monks are not big on damage. What they are big on is...

Between monk speed, HiPS, UMD, dex/wis AC, and ED I don't think that survivability will be a huge issue, but please let me know if I'm wrong on that too.

This. An epic dodge monk is literally indestructible if played right. It's slow, but you are peerless in PVP.

[PUNCHDOG]

Monk(20), Rogue(5), Shadowdancer(5), Half-Orc

STR: 10
DEX: 18 (26)
CON: 14
WIS: 14
INT: 14
CHA: 6

Gifts: Dex, sneaks

Half-Orc: (Darkvision)
01: Rogue(1): Expertise
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Rogue(3): Weapon Finesse, {Uncanny Dodge I}
04: Monk(1): DEX+1, {Cleave, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist}, (DEX=19)
05: Monk(2): {Deflect Arrows}
06: Monk(3): Weapon Focus: Unarmed
07: Monk(4)
08: Monk(5): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
09: Monk(6): Improved Expertise, {Knockdown, Improved Knockdown}
10: Monk(7)
11: Monk(8)
12: Monk(9): DEX+1, Dodge, {Improved Evasion}, (DEX=21)
13: Monk(10)
14: Monk(11)
15: Monk(12): Mobility
16: Shadowdancer(1): DEX+1, {Hide in Plain Sight}, (DEX=22)
17: Shadowdancer(2)
18: Shadowdancer(3): Blind Fight
19: Shadowdancer(4)
20: Rogue(4): DEX+1, (DEX=23)
21: Shadowdancer(5): Epic Prowess, {Defensive Roll}
22: Monk(13)
23: Monk(14)
24: Monk(15): DEX+1, Great Dexterity I, (DEX=25)
25: Monk(16)
26: Monk(17)
27: Monk(18): Epic Dodge
28: Monk(19): DEX+1, (DEX=26)
29: Rogue(5)
30: Monk(20): Armor S

Hitpoints: 290
Skillpoints: 240
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 17/17/29
Saving Throw bonuses: Mind Effects: +2, Traps: +1
BAB: 20
AB (max, naked): 30 (melee), 29 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 32/32
Spell Casting:
Alignment Changes: 0

Discipline 33(33), Heal 33(35), Hide 33(41), Listen 3(5), Move Silently 33(41), Pick Pocket 30(38), Search 30(32), Tumble 30(38), UMD 15(13)

Thoughts?

Concerning feats & ability scores: I know its not 100% ideal to spend an epic feat on dex, but the alternative is having 13 int and an extra awkward ability point in con or str. Another option would be to push epic dodge back to lvl 30, but that's not desirable.

Related to skills: I'm debating swapping out Search for something else, probably Parry. How much Search is "enough" to usually find the server goodies? How much better is the loot for investing heavily? Likewise, I don't know what kind of place Parry is in right now, but this build doesn't exactly have any lack of survivability. Then again, icing on the cake is always sweet.

[Lorkas]

When going for epic dodge on a character, I often plan in a Great Dexterity feat. If you compare the two different potential paths, it's the choice to spent an epic feat for a +1 to two different ability mods in this case. That's worth an epic feat.

I have parry on an epic dodge character, and it's amazing at low level--you won't be sorry if you take 20 ranks (with gear and DEX) very early on. I found that I basically never use it at epics, apart from friendly sparring with allies, but I kept adding points into it. I suspect if I'm ever in a one-on-one PvP fight it could be useful. It's quite binary though--it probably isn't worth it if you're getting less than 60 or so parry.

[gilescorey]

Take Epic Weapon Focus: Unarmed for more AB than just Epic Prowess.

And Lorkas is right, Parry can be strong but it scales very strangely. It's super strong early on, but later you need to have a lot to really have it be worthwhile. On a Monk, I don't think I'd bother, but ymmv.

[Astral]

I would suggest going 20/10 monk rogue. more specifically 3 rogue > 16 monk > 7 rogue > 4 monk or something like that. Reasons being HiPS is overrated when you have umd, and even more when you have 20 monk lvls. 10 rogue lvls give more sneak damage and skill points than 5/5. It's not a huge difference but it's a difference.

[PUNCHDOG]

Wow, lots of very fast responses.

When going for epic dodge on a character, I often plan in a Great Dexterity feat. If you compare the two different potential paths, it's the choice to spent an epic feat for a +1 to two different ability mods in this case. That's worth an epic feat.

Noted. I'll leave it how it is, then. Thanks for the assurance.

it probably isn't worth it if you're getting less than 60 or so parry.

So basically, gear investment and possibly an epic feat? Meh.
Still, anyone have any thoughts on Search? Another more normal option for that skill point would be Listen or Spot. Always nice to know who else is the shadows.

Take Epic Weapon Focus: Unarmed for more AB than just Epic Prowess.

Noted and fixed. Would swapping out the armor skin for prowess be worth it, or does +1AC>+1AB?

I would suggest going 20/10 monk rogue. (...) Reasons being HiPS is overrated

A large reason for wanting to do this is to get to play with HiPS, a feat I've never really explored. I'll admit, I've heard mixed things about it. I guess I'll find out for myself if it's overexaggerated. If I did end up not doing SD, I'd almost certainly put some fighter in there for weapon spec.

Thanks for all the good input. Keep it coming.

[Lorkas]

Keep Armor Skin--it's 2 AC, not 1.

Listen is pretty good if you're gearing for it. It's harder for people to get crazy high MS than it is for them to get crazy high hide.

[gilescorey]

20/10 is better than 20/5/5 but eh. HiPS is fun to play around with, so if you really want to do it you might as well. And don't put fighter into a monk build unless you're some kind of icky kensai. Do not be an icky kensai.

[Astral]

Do not be an icky kensai.

Unless cha BG. Or BG/PDK.

[Midnight In A Perfect World]

Do not be an icky kensai.

Unless cha BG. Or BG/PDK.

Kensai = no use of UMD
UMD = an absolute necessity (on Arelith, at least)
Therefore, kensai = always a worse choice, for any build, really

[msterswrdsmn]

Its not -AS- necessary for a monk heavy build, as some of the main things you need from umd can be gained via monk abilities
GMW=ki strike. Concealment=empty body. Mind immunity=level 20 monk.

Not to say its an easy choice; leveling early on is going to be a struggle without the help of potions and decent gear.

[gilescorey]

Please do not recommend kensai to anybody for a serious build. It's a huge gimmick at best, and a crippling mistake at most. "At most," being the vast majority of the time.