Arelith

With the introduction of Ranger's Archer Path being selectable via command, an adjustment has been made to Ranger 5 / Fighter 6 / Arcane Archer 19 build.

By switching level 1 class from Ranger to Fighter, the character gains 3 points from Wisdom to distribute it into 1 point of Dex, while losing 16 points of skill points.

What this translates to is in the epic levels, the Great Dexterity is now replaced with Epic Skill Focus: Spot. Net loss of 6 skills, but Spot is boosted by another 10 ranks, while AB remained the same. There is also a net loss of 1 will save.

Last but not least, I invite everyone to come up with fun builds that dip into Ranger class for its Archer path without using Ranger class as first level.

Rogue4/Ranger10/BG16 is now an alternative to Rogue13/BG17; misses out on Epic dodge and shorter CD Blinding speed but gains feats out the arse and making arrows isn't a nuisance.

Half-orc (for sw4$)

STR13
DEX17 -> 19 -> 26
CON10
INT12
WIS8
CHA12 -> 14

Ranger7/Rogue3/BG10 pre-epic

(4+1+8)
Feats: PBS, Rapid reload, Rapid shot, Weapon finesse, Called shot, WF, Blindfight, Power attack, D.Shield, D.Might, Extra turning, SF:Trans, GSF:Trans, Improved critical

(4+2+1)
Epic feats: Epic fiend, EWF, Armorskin, Optional1, Optional2, Optional3, Optional4

Here are the two spreads:
Bard 4 / Ranger 10 / BG 16
Rogue 4 / Ranger 10 / BG 16

The differences are:
Bard split has GSF: Transmutation and GSF: Conjuration, thus -teleport at lvl21, slightly better Summon Fiend, rudimentary Bard Song (+1AB, +2dmg), and Spellcraft (+3 uni save).

Rogue split has Weapon Finesse, earlier Evasion (lvl2 rather than lvl29), 28 more skill points, 2d6 Sneak Attack, +3 damage on 2/3 of the population (Human, Elf, HOrc, Dwarf)

Bard is more for buffing the summon, and Rogue is more focused on dealing more damage. The charisma and divine might modifier have taken the aforementioned into account adjusted according to such.

Slings don't have 1.5x modifier for divine might, therefore 16 (max at 28) charisma will have +9 damage.

On the other hand, Longbow's 2H status with 1.5x the divine might damage rounded down, a 14 (26 max) charisma investment means an 8*1.5=12, as opposed to 9*1.5=13.5~13.

Special thanks to Opustus for propelling the build concept forward.

Hi guys,

With the introduction of Haks, the builds are due for an update.

Please let me know if anything can be further improved or if there are any typos to be fixed now that the haks are live.

Regards,

Kenji

Here's a post with the races broken down into their new base races with the haks: viewtopic.php?p=198778#p198778

Kenji3108 wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:58 am

Hi guys,

With the introduction of Haks, the builds are due for an update.

Please let me know if anything can be further improved or if there are any typos to be fixed now that the haks are live.

Regards,

Kenji

If the Ranger Builds is being examined for overhaul... I think we should press for a non-elf-only ranger path that offers an alternative to the Arcane Archer ... From 3rd Edition "Masters of the Wild" expansion book... It would be cool to do a "Deepwood Sniper" ranger path that is different from the "archer path"

here is on version of it's breakdown for a Table-Top D&D campaign... obviously we would need modify it a little to fit better this NWN game engine.. but with HAK's I think it could certainly be done with special script hooks.

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Deepwood_ ... ige_Class)

The Kriv wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:32 am

Kenji3108 wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:58 am

Hi guys,

With the introduction of Haks, the builds are due for an update.

Please let me know if anything can be further improved or if there are any typos to be fixed now that the haks are live.

Regards,

Kenji

If the Ranger Builds is being examined for overhaul... I think we should press for a non-elf-only ranger path that offers an alternative to the Arcane Archer ... From 3rd Edition "Masters of the Wild" expansion book... It would be cool to do a "Deepwood Sniper" ranger path that is different from the "archer path"

here is on version of it's breakdown for a Table-Top D&D campaign... obviously we would need modify it a little to fit better this NWN game engine.. but with HAK's I think it could certainly be done with special script hooks.

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Deepwood_ ... ige_Class)

Deepwood Sniper is literally my favorite 3.5 PrC. Would love to see it on Arelith.

Hi guys,

I'll be working hard on updating as many builds as I can. In the meanwhile, given the update on AAs now getting their own bundles, the Ranger -> AA for QoL purposes have become obsolete, therefore Bard -> AA should become standard. Ranger going into AA for the extra BAB,+2 Damage, and 2 pre-epic feats (or debatably 1) is likely outweighed by the AC and Saves gained from Bard's Tumble and Discipline on top of access to both arcane and divine wands given the investment into UMD.

As for Deepwood Sniper PrC, it is a very distinctively cool class and gives off a WM-for-ranged vibe. If it were to come to be, I'd make it have the following prereq and different rate at which it gains the extra multiplier and AB to mark it more in line with the WM class.

Deepwood Sniper
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Skills: Hide: 6 Ranks, Move Silently: 6 Ranks, Spot: 7 Ranks, Survival Discipline: 5 Ranks
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus: Missile, Blind Fight, Rapid Fire or Rapid Shot

Code: Select all

1st 	+1 	+0 	+2 	+0 	Create Ammunition: Iron Bundle
2nd 	+2 	+0 	+3 	+0 	Concealment reduction 10%
3rd 	+3 	+1 	+3 	+1 	Poison use
4th 	+4 	+1 	+4 	+1 	
5th 	+5 	+1 	+4 	+1 	Consistent Aim, Projectile Multiplier goes up by 1 for Launchers, Create Ammunition: Steel
6th 	+6 	+2 	+5 	+2 	Concealment reduction 20%
7th 	+7 	+2 	+5 	+2 	Keen Projectile (Critical Threat Range -1 for 2H weapons, 16-20 for Crossbow, 18-20 for Bow on top of Improved Critical feat)
8th 	+8 	+2 	+6 	+2 	Take Aim (AB) +1
9th 	+9 	+3 	+6 	+3 	
10th 	+10 	+3 	+7 	+3 	True Shot, Concealment reduction 30%, Bonus Feat, Create Ammunition: Damask

• This way, it directly forces Rangers to make a choice of going 23/7 spread or 21/5(6)sniper/dip spread. Ranger/Monk/Div will still come out on top AC-wise, easily.
• As for AA, bards not having access to Spot will make it harder to approach it that way, therefore Ranger -> AA is almost necessary for the double dip on AA and Sniper PrC. Possible spread is Ranger 5 / AA 18 / Sniper 7
• Monk dips will distinctively not benefit from this PrC.
• Divine dips such as Paladin or BG for Rangers will likely remain as is.

What's more important about the PrC is that it opens up ranged for many other classes such as Rogues and Fighters (even paladins) all the while making sure that classes such as Cleric Healer will have to make heavy investment into Sniper in order to gain from it.

Edit: Typo correction

Can this concealment reduction be coded into the game? If not, just add Blind Fight to the requirements of the class and at level 10 the Deadwood Sniper ignores concealment completely. (30% > ~25% of an imp inv against blind fight).

Great suggestion, would love to see some cool rogue Deadwood Snipers.

Monk dips will distinctively not benefit from this PrC.

Are you sure? I could see (say) a 4 monk/ 16 rogue/ 10 sniper-ninja with epic dodge sneak raining shuriken, assuming the class works with thrown weapons too (or would it just be for slings, crossbows and bows?)

I love the idea of a sniper PRC. Hin sorely need something like that to be the rogue-heavy slingers Brandobaris demands.

Diegovog wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:42 pm

Can this concealment reduction be coded into the game? If not, just add Blind Fight to the requirements of the class and at level 10 the Deadwood Sniper ignores concealment completely. (30% > ~25% of an imp inv against blind fight).

Great suggestion, would love to see some cool rogue Deadwood Snipers.

I welcome any brainstorming regarding ranged here. I imagine it'll have to work similar to how Assassin's -assassinate command works:

1. Pick a single target
2. Target gets a debuff (whether known or unknown) only specific to the sniper, others won't benefit from this, only the sniper will
3. The concealment reduction can work against monk's empty body.

Adding Blind Fight to the requirement also seems adequate, Deepwood Sniper works similarly to WM without it being as taxing feat-wise, this should make it more in-line with what the PrC does.

Wuthering wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:14 pm

Monk dips will distinctively not benefit from this PrC.

Are you sure? I could see (say) a 4 monk/ 16 rogue/ 10 sniper-ninja with epic dodge sneak raining shuriken, assuming the class works with thrown weapons too (or would it just be for slings, crossbows and bows?)

I love the idea of a sniper PRC. Hin sorely need something like that to be the rogue-heavy slingers Brandobaris demands.

The PnP version had weapon foci in bow and crossbow as a prerequisite. I was imagining the feats only work with two-handed launchers only. Halfling and sling combo can be very good atm, not only do they have rivaling AB, they also have access to shields that the 2H launchers do not. (more stats and AC for slings)

The choice in bows and crossbows are mostly for more firepower or outlier builds such as Cleric Healers who can only use crossbows for a ranged build.

---
As a general statement to everyone:
It was a fun theorycrafting exercise, even if it may or may not be realized. So far, the Ranger Archer and AA builds populate the field of ranged, this PrC might provide certain incentive to more builds outside of the Ranger/AA box.

Healers can use slings as well as crossbows (and it may be a better choice when leveling, at least in my experience.)

Hin have some good sling options but I believe they're mostly ranger based, it would be nice for them to have an option that favored going heavy rogue. Considering slings are covered with the weapon focus: missile feat I'd expect and hope they'd be part of this hypothetical class. The highest end slings have been nerfed so badly I think that makes up for the benefit you get from shields.

Wuthering wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:18 pm

Healers can use slings as well as crossbows (and it may be a better choice when leveling, at least in my experience.)

Hin have some good sling options but I believe they're mostly ranger based, it would be nice for them to have an option that favored going heavy rogue. Considering slings are covered with the weapon focus: missile feat I'd expect and hope they'd be part of this hypothetical class. The highest end slings have been nerfed so badly I think that makes up for the benefit you get from shields.

The problem with slings pre-nerf is its synergy with halfling builds, on top of having access to shields, they were also performing just as well, if not better, than some of the 2-handed launchers. Even after the nerf, thanks to halfling's extra AB with throwing weapons, slings can still be just as viable.

vs 63 AC (Sorcs)


vs 52 AC (WMs)


vs 69 AC (Ranger/Harper Paragon/Monk)


I wouldn't call the slings being nerfed so badly, as the nerf was justified and even after the nerf, it still is a good choice, just that it no longer is the BiS automatically.

As for healers being able to use slings, the current meta is that healers either dip into ranger for an extra ESF or monk for more AC. If dipped into monk, then shields are no longer available and crossbows become the only choice for healers. The main difference to discern here is non-Healer clerics that go monk have access to shurikens whereas healers don't, this will automatically make shurikens a better choice than slings.

This is pinned so it's not a necro right..

Here is my crossbow build, can't see it doing as much pure dmg as an AA but with all the cleric levels I think there's some good utility.

Some of it is non-optimized but represent choices, for ex. could end on 20 wisdom instead of 19 but I prefer the extra skillpoints and carrying capacity. The last fighter level could be moved around, purest CHA squeeze would get it up to 28, etc. I even think from a pure power perspective shield/sling might be better at the top levels.

Damage at top end is not bad, +8 from cleric spells, + 12 from divine, +6 from weapon spec, mighty +x, whatever nice bolts you have and superior crossbow crit matrix should push average damage per hit over 40. Extend spell is really nice to have in a build like this to keep up the divine favors and the battletides. Also plenty of heals and buffs available as an epic cleric with xx domains.


Human Ranger 3/Cleric 23/Fighter 4

Str 14
Dex 8
Con 8
Int 12
Wis 16 (18) -> 19 (ECL here if desired)
Cha 16 (18) -> 22/24/26 (ECL here if desired)

1 Rgr/archer- PB shot, rap reload, blindfight, weap focus (heavy crossbow), Favored enemy xxx (vermin? animals?)
2 Rgr
3 Rgr - zen archery
4 Cleric 1 (domains x 2)
5 Cleric 2
6 Cleric 3 - extend spell
7 Cleric 4
8 Cleric 5, if wis < 19, wis +1, else cha +1
9 Ftr 1 - combat casting, power attack
10 Ftr 2 - imp crit heavy crossbow
11 Ftr 3
12 Cleric 6 - divine might, if wis < 19, wis +1, else cha +1
13 Cleric 7
14 Cleric 8
15 Cleric 9 - Improved Turning, -notells
16 Cleric 10, Cha +1
17 Cleric 11
18 Cleric 12- divine shield
19 Cleric 13
20 Cleric 14, Cha +1
21 Cleric 15 - epic weap focus (heavy crossbow)
22 Cleric 16
23 Cleric 17
24 Cleric 18 - Great Cha 1, Cha +1
25 Cleric 19
26 Cleric 20
27 Cleric 21 - Great Cha 2
28 Cleric 22 - Cha +1
29 Cleric 23 - Improved Combat Casting
30 Ftr 4 - weapon spec (heavy crossbow), epic weapon spec (heavy crossbow) ... could also take at 24 or 27 instead