Ranger / Loremaster

[HiddenDepths]

We'll just dive into it then!

First I was wondering if Ranger (23) is worth going for since it gets the Animal Empathy Henchmen? If not, then I'll stop at 21 for Bane of Enemies.

I was thinking about doing a Dexterity based Ranger who utilizes both Sword / Shield and a decent bowmen. So I'll be aiming for Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (Shortsword), and Spell Focus / Greater Spell Focus Abjuration.

I know lack of Tumble will sting, but if I take 16 skill points in Tumble I should be /OK/?

I've got a lot of wiggle room and am looking for suggestions!

[Gouge Away]

I think the animal henchmen are mostly useful when leveling. You probably won't miss them at 30 as there aren't many animals strong enough for end game content and you can still empathy one animal when cruising nature anyway. If you take almost all of your ranger levels first you'll still be able to use the double henchmen ability until the high 20s, which is about when its usefulness will dwindle anyway.

I don't know what your build is but Loremaster usually works best as a 3 or 4 level dip unless you're making a dedicated language tutor character or something. You may still look at adding a few rogue levels too?

[HiddenDepths]

The ranger will be focused heavily around the Loremaster class, this is why I had chosen to do a bigger dip than 4 in Loremaster. But I guess mechanically it weakens me too heavily for a Ranger?

[Gouge Away]

It's not maximizing every scrap of possibility but you should be more than fine with 21 or 23 ranger/ rest loremaster if that's what you want and think would be most fun. 25/5 for the extra ranger feat and studied enemy might be something to consider and still give plenty of loremaster.

[HiddenDepths]

I guess a good question is how important is Tumble? Would the 16ish be enough? I know it doubles skill points per-tumble point without a class with it but it's a sacrifice.

[Gouge Away]

15 vs 30 tumble is all about the 3 AC. A dex based archer or shield user is going to have high AC and isn't going to miss it nearly as much as a strength ranger would. I'd say you'll be fine with 15 but someone else will probably come in and say it's completely unplayable if you don't dip *shrugs* Just keep in mind most advice you get is all about the high end PVP but if that matters to you, you probably wouldn't be taking loremaster levels

(You also only need 15 not 16, the extra point doesn't get you anything.)

[AstralUniverse]

With the OP's concept and direction in mind, I think I'd look at something like dex based 21 ranager, and then X loremaster, Y swashbuckler. A dex ranger , even with bane of enemies, will still lack damage (unless it has a monk dip of course, and then it gets attacks instead), so adding 5 swashbuckler levels will take care of several issues. 1) it means you dont have to have 11+ wisdom if you dont intend to be a caster, you start as 3 swashbuckler. 2) it means you get your tumble dip and can take 30 tumble. 3) it gives some extra damage and ac. It syncs well with the 16 int loremaster requirement. The difference between 4 loremaster and 7 loremaster is kinda minor imo, but at 4 lvls you have much better and less crippling build options. Also worth noting that ranger/swash combo can probably get decent ac as strength based with the ranger armor and I'd probably look into that more, unless the bow is really important for the concept.

If you dont plan to use dual wielding and just use sword-n-board or bow, then I'd take archer path and get the archer base feats for free and some extra damage with bow. It basically would cost you nothing.

[Goromir]

Sorry if I'm derailing the thread with a tangent, but my curiosity was piqued with the spell focus abjuration thing.

I've always believed ranger DCs are too hopelessly low to bother with spell focus. What is this for? If it's for the ward ability you get with all the SF Abjuration feats, how good/useful is that?

[AstralUniverse]

Spell Focus: Abjuration
Epic Spell Focus: The -ward and -ward teleport Commands become available. The character may use one or the other of these, once per rest. -ward creates a large visible symbol on the floor, which lasts for a long time and inflicts brief paralysis on enemies who fail a Will Save upon passing over it. -ward teleport, while it lasts, prevents any PC from teleporting out of the area in question through any means, and prevents them from being -yoinked elsewhere whilst the remain in the area. It also prevents travel to any portals within the area.
Affected Spell List:
Holy Sword: If the caster has Abjuration Foci, the Dispel check improves by +1 per focus feat.
Endure Elements, Resist Elements, Protection from Elements, Energy Buffer: Epic Spell Focus Abjuration increases Damage absorbed by 1.5 times.
Lesser Dispel, Dispel, Greater Dispel, Mordenkainen's Disjunction :
Each Spell Focus in Abjuration grants a cumulative +1 to Dispelling Rolls (with Epic spell focus adding an additional +1), to a total of +4 with Epic Spell Focus: Abjuration. These are applied after the Level Cap imposed by individual spells (so an Epic Abjurer's Greater Dispelling caps at +26, not +22).
Shield:
Spell Focus Abjuration: The Shield spell protection extends to include Isaac's Lesser Missile Storm as well as Magic Missile.
Greater Spell Focus: This Shield spell protection extends to include Isaac's Greater Missile Storm.

There is plenty of stuff to know about feat changes here....http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Feat_changes

[Good Character]

Sorry if I'm derailing the thread with a tangent, but my curiosity was piqued with the spell focus abjuration thing.

I've always believed ranger DCs are too hopelessly low to bother with spell focus. What is this for? If it's for the ward ability you get with all the SF Abjuration feats, how good/useful is that?

Mildly useful, but definitely not worth taking on a ranger and surely not worth it for the -ward ability.

-ward teleport is just to add a niche role for abjurers. It's great to secure a location with a few entrances which leads to the only escapes being 1. PvP and win, 2. Portal lens, or 3. -yoink. Needs to be used strategically given it's on a timer.

-ward is just trash on paper especially since the DC is allegedly too low to be useful in high end PVP, though I have never seen it been used.

[AstralUniverse]

Mildly useful, but definitely not worth taking on a ranger and surely not worth it for the -ward ability.

Hey uh... dont say that. gsf abjuration on a ranger is actually really good because it means you can drink a 28 gp potion and be immune to one of the mage's primary damage spell. If they breach you, well, you can just drink another one and they put themselves at disadvantage. It is really good and rangers are also among the classes which sacrifice the least to pick it because they can select greater spell focus on a bonus favored enemy feat if they want. I'm not saying it's a must-take but saying it's definitely not worth taking on a ranger is incorrect and misleading. Just had to point that out.

[Good Character]

Mildly useful, but definitely not worth taking on a ranger and surely not worth it for the -ward ability.

Hey uh... dont say that. gsf abjuration on a ranger is actually really good because it means you can drink a 28 gp potion and be immune to one of the mage's primary damage spell. If they breach you, well, you can just drink another one and they put themselves at disadvantage. It is really good and rangers are also among the classes which sacrifice the least to pick it because they can select greater spell focus on a bonus favored enemy feat if they want. I'm not saying it's a must-take but saying it's definitely not worth taking on a ranger is incorrect and misleading. Just had to point that out.

Taking ESF: Abjuration on a ranger is definitely not worth it, which is what I was talking about.

[AstralUniverse]

Mildly useful, but definitely not worth taking on a ranger and surely not worth it for the -ward ability.

Hey uh... dont say that. gsf abjuration on a ranger is actually really good because it means you can drink a 28 gp potion and be immune to one of the mage's primary damage spell. If they breach you, well, you can just drink another one and they put themselves at disadvantage. It is really good and rangers are also among the classes which sacrifice the least to pick it because they can select greater spell focus on a bonus favored enemy feat if they want. I'm not saying it's a must-take but saying it's definitely not worth taking on a ranger is incorrect and misleading. Just had to point that out.

Taking ESF: Abjuration on a ranger is definitely not worth it, which is what I was talking about.

I was assuming you refer to sf and gsf abjuration because that's the question you were answering, but I should have realized you are talking about -ward, from how you wrote it. Yeah, on one hand investing a feat for -ward/-ward teleport seems like a waste, but isnt this whole class about the RP cookies and pretending to be a wizard anyway? If you're a ranger and you've picked gsf abjuration (because it's a really valid option) then there's no reason not to take the secret for RP's sake, since you're picking this class for RP's sake only.

[Good Character]

Hey uh... dont say that. gsf abjuration on a ranger is actually really good because it means you can drink a 28 gp potion and be immune to one of the mage's primary damage spell. If they breach you, well, you can just drink another one and they put themselves at disadvantage. It is really good and rangers are also among the classes which sacrifice the least to pick it because they can select greater spell focus on a bonus favored enemy feat if they want. I'm not saying it's a must-take but saying it's definitely not worth taking on a ranger is incorrect and misleading. Just had to point that out.

Taking ESF: Abjuration on a ranger is definitely not worth it, which is what I was talking about.

I was assuming you refer to sf and gsf abjuration because that's the question you were answering, but I should have realized you are talking about -ward, from how you wrote it. Yeah, on one hand investing a feat for -ward/-ward teleport seems like a waste, but isnt this whole class about the RP cookies and pretending to be a wizard anyway? If you're a ranger and you've picked gsf abjuration (because it's a really valid option) then there's no reason not to take the secret for RP's sake, since you're picking this class for RP's sake only.

I agree to some extent, but 1. It wastes an epic feat, and 2. The epic spell is just really weak in my opinion and is hard to inject into everyday RP. As I explained in my post, it serves such a specific, niche role that you are hardly ever going to be able to set-up unless it's a planned meeting.

[Gouge Away]

But they're not talking about taking ESF Abjuration on a ranger which isn't even possible. They're talking loremaster secret of abjuration which is a loremaster bonus feat and not taking away from your epic feat pool. You could even take that pre-epic if you want though you can't actually use -ward until 21+. Point is though if you're dipping loremaster instead of rogue or bard anyway (which is a workable choice, some might just do that for the free language) you get a free "secret" at level 2 anyway and there's a lot worse you could do than the secret of abjuration.

Also, it doesn't just block teleport-- it blocks scrying as well. Tremendously useful for some characters.

[Ork]

OP, are you asking for what is optimal in your situation? I will tell you that coming in with a prescribed feat selection & class build will only lead you and others towards frustration if you're looking for optimization.

[Skibbles]

Are you going archer path or normal Ranger?

Underdark or surface?

Ranger/loremaster only or a third class?

I'd like to hear more about the concept to offer any input. What you have outlined currently is mostly just a basic Ranger package that any Ranger will have default for the most part.

Why are you taking loremaster? What kind of RP are you looking for?

As it stands I'd just say - don't take loremaster. Any other class combo is superior so we need some flavor guidance on what you want to see in the RP.

[Gouge Away]

As it stands I'd just say - don't take loremaster. Any other class combo is superior so we need some flavor guidance on what you want to see in the RP.

Why? I think a loremaster 3 or 4 level dip can be a decent choice if you prefer its benefits to bard or rogue. All you need is 16 int and some lore after all which isn't an unreasonable requirement and you get UMD, spellcraft, a few other skills, a bonus feat which in a ranger's case can get a normally ESF ability and a bonus language. I would never say "anything else is superior."

10 loremaster levels is going to be in the "RP character" territory sure (which is fine and dandy if that's what you're going for and know the drawbacks) but 3 is totally doable.

[AstralUniverse]

Why?

Because of the lack of Tumble. Which means in order to make mechanical advantage of this class you need a very specific build that already gets tumble discipline. You basically need a build that is quite solid with 2 classes, and then add LM there as a minor boost to ac/ab. Otherwise, dont take loremaster, unless, again, you are in it for the cookies. Swashbuckler builds can get away with loremaster more easily. Otherwise Bard/rogue IS objectively better.

[Gouge Away]

That's fine but I'm operating under the assumption that anyone asking about ranger/loremaster is asking how to make loremaster work on a ranger not how to make the most kickbutt stock ranger you can. If you just want the best ranger build there's no need for this thread, go look at the wiki. But if someone's trying to figure out how to work in some loremaster functionality like getting a secret language and being able to scry on a tracking ranger we're not doing them any favors by saying that mix won't work and LM is useless-- it's just not, it can work, but you'll lose a little something somewhere so you have to plan carefully. Let's help them plan not tell them they're fools for trying.

Missing tumble? Ranger/monk can support three loremaster levels, maybe even ranger/rogue or ranger/swashbuckler or ranger/assassin... As long as you have 21 ranger levels and bane of enemies there's quite a bit of room to add two classes and be a more than competent character.

[Gouge Away]

Also, back to the original question-- maybe you'd want to look at a wisdom based zen archery ranger/monk/lm using shuriken? Damage wouldn't be amazing but decent against FE and with lots of attacks, you'd have good AC with both ranger and monk gear to choose from and while it's not exactly the most stellar ability your -ward if you go with that secret would key its DC off your wisdom so it'd actually have some use.

[AstralUniverse]

Ranger monk is a pretty good example to a class combination that doesnt need a third class to reach a proper power creep. Having 26+ ranger for +5 weapon or having fighter lvls for weapon specs are neat options but this here is exactly where a loremaster can be the third class without drastic fall in power. Doing it Archer is interesting but far better builders than me will say Zen archery is only for clerics and anything else is better off as dex (i put it this way because I'm not 100% sure why).

[Gouge Away]

I'd be curious what the drawback to a zen ranger/monk would be since you get AC and (full) AB from the same source. I believe you but I can't figure out what it would be... It's the low damage many attacks principle of course but so is dex.

[AstralUniverse]

maybe it's the blinding speed lol

[Ork]

You spend a feat for what you'd normally get from dex: AB & AC. And, yeah you miss out on blinding speed.