Buffless wonder

[KeldonDonovans]

Stuff about mechanics.

I spend a ridiculous amount of time on NWN wiki, and have most of the rules of D&D 3ed down pat. I get how core mechanics work (like your example, you'd want the divisible by four option for full BAB) and I understand the concepts of noticing how some features work well together. But that doesn't really help. To use an example, its like I know all of the pieces of a puzzle individually, but lack the spatial recognition to actually complete the puzzle. So I'm asking for help.

Three seperate build ideas on the Arelith Wiki

Thanks! I'll look them over.

You're better served overall by curating a list of builds that ascribe to your playstyle

I've played a lot of characters on Arelith since I started back in 2007ish. Most of them Underdark. Most of them are highly capable of stealth. About 40% magic users (arcane), 40% monk, 15% every other kind of mundane, 5% everything else.. The only build I almost always get bored of is Archer. Is that what you are looking for?

[Ork]

Yeah, I think that helps to know. Truthfully I think more about playstyle as how you might cooperate with a group (or even preparedness for solo). For instance, I prefer tanks solely because these classes can also survive by themselves.

As a fellow vet from the hay days of 2005, we didn't know shit about builds back then. I'd say the turning point was around 2010 but over time, a lot of very smart math-minded people started to inform us collectively of mechanical advantages we had no idea of back in the day. This was also helped by Mithreas and now IG expanding upon mechanics and recruiting developers interested in changing up the vanilla classes into something more. We're now adding classes thanks to .haks and our developers.

Truthfully, I've always struggled with building - especially when it comes to combining the vast array of abilities we now enjoy into new and unique forms. I'm a mechanics vulture that typically takes an idea, and subtracts or adds something that might give it a different but substantive edge (div dips usually :> ). The strongest advice I can give is to say that the forums are not conducive to discussions about mechanics. You don't know the experiences of the posters here, but there are very insightful people in both the official discord and 3.0. I frequently ask for advice in these community mediums because I've learned to trust certain individuals in their analysis of build mechanics. Here? I'm afraid not everyone has that analytical mind to help you improve.

That's not to say that this forum isn't valuable, but I think we miss a lot of voices that know and have experience with those jigsaw style builds.

[godhand-]

Bring back Kensai

[ZombieDuck]

Pure fighter or 25 Fighter/5 Rogue might also work for this idea.
Both builds weakness is low saves with the rogue variant having evasion to let you ignore some dmg from spells/traps/misc if you manage to buff reflex save high enought and some rogue skills if you want to use them.

I was also thinking of builds with 16 SD since you the shadow summon and shadow evade are pretty permanent buffs at that level, but they are still buffs and don't strictly work with the idea of buffless build.

30 Monk might also work, the Arelith version of monk is quite balanced, although with 20+ monk levels I do recommend going for unarmed focus and getting Ki strike +4/+5.
25 Monk/5 ED could also work. Combine some of that high AC/Saves with decent AB/Dmg/SR alongside other monk immunities with Epic Dodge, EDs defensive stance/regenation and you should be quite effective even unbuffed(Don't think monk speed works with the stance, you'll still be slow whenever in stance).

[KeldonDonovans]

30 Monk might also work, the Arelith version of monk is quite balanced, although with 20+ monk levels I do recommend going for unarmed focus and getting Ki strike +4/+5.

So you are saying unarmed would be better? I assumed, based on the lack of Masterly Damask gloves, and lowered number of attacks compared to dual wielding monk weapons, that monks with twin monk weapons would be better suited for end game?

[ZombieDuck]

http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Monk
There's info on Arelith changes on the monk, but basically unarmed are better because of the:
+4, +6 dmg, +1 wis, +1 universal saves, runic gloves.
Unarmed bonus AB/DMG from Combat mastery is higher.
Ki Strike +4/+5 each give +1 AB/+2 Dmg and the reguirement is lowered to 16 WIS
1d20 dmg dice on fists at 20+ monk is also high.

[AstralUniverse]

Unarmed monk builds are also some of the least screwed builds if their wards run out mid combat or if the area isnt that difficult and it's a chance to save some umd charges. This is because they dont lose their movement speed when the haste is off, and they keep really high baseline ac and epic dodge and immunities to most crowd control so they are really really hard to kill. That's not to say they dont benefit from wards just as anyone else but the closest things I can think of that fit the OP's request is any unarmed monk or any melee PM builds (but take into account that melee PM's 'buffless wonder' starts only at lvl 30 when they get their EMA).

[KeldonDonovans]

Alright, so sticking with what I know a bit, it seems monk is the way to go.

Now I just need to figure out a build for a monk that isn't utter trash, as many as I've played I always end up screwing up somewhere, so this time I'm trying to get everything planned out ahead of time.

Any recommendations for a build for a UD monk? I know Ki Strike +4/+5 are must haves if I want to pierce damage resist, and weapon finesse is my go to level 3 feat because I like being able to hit things. Otherwise I tend to go skill focus hide/ms and stealthy, weapon focus (and greater weapon focus) unarmed. The rest I just kind of wing it, so I'm hoping for something a little more structured.

And since it will be an AC tank, is it possible to work enough ED in there to get that regen? Or would I be better off just going pure monk and playing a race (like imp) that has the regen naturally?

[AstralUniverse]

There are at least 2 awesome monk builds on the wiki. I personally like the 20 monk 4 cot 6 fighter, but really there are few ways to go wrong with a 30 monk. Just make sure you have dex and wis for the feats requirements (epic dodge, improved ki) and dont take circle kick.

[ZombieDuck]

Monk/ED is very much possible, and good too.
Did you have a specific race in mind? In UD Duergar obviously fits the bill well.

[KeldonDonovans]

Monk/ED is very much possible, and good too.
Did you have a specific race in mind? In UD Duergar obviously fits the bill well.

I'm one of those horrible people that plans their character concept around their build, so I can make any UD race work. Only thing I'm opposed to playing is a slave.

[edit]
to clarify, yes, I'm even down to svirf it up. I'm not one of those people who thinks, just because that race is perfectly built for monks means they can't be RP'd correctly.

[Archnon]

There are at least 2 awesome monk builds on the wiki. I personally like the 20 monk 4 cot 6 fighter, but really there are few ways to go wrong with a 30 monk. Just make sure you have dex and wis for the feats requirements (epic dodge, improved ki) and dont take circle kick.

I have been recommending 20 Monk, 5 ranger, 5 fighter. If you take the 4 ranger pre-epic, it nets you a chance to get gsf ABJ for missile protection. The 5 ranger level lets you get blinding speed. This leaves your 4 epic feats for Ki4, Ki5, Epic Dodge, ESF Discipline. You can also take the 5 fighter and pick up armor skin, ewf, epic prowess. An alternative, but it is nice as it opens up some wand use too and gets you all the major feats for a good dex build.

Monk/ED is very much possible, and good too.
Did you have a specific race in mind? In UD Duergar obviously fits the bill well.

I'm confused. I thought ED required armor on to use all its feats. That torches a lot of the monk bonuses.

[ZombieDuck]

I think 'Require armor to be worn' just means you have to have something(even cloth) equipped on the armor slot, atleast things seemed to work fine with the Monk/ED on test server.

Svirfs have the smaller dmg dice for unarmed, meaning duergar is probably better.

Some of the possible 20+ monks would be:
20 Monk/5 ED/5 Fighter
20 Monk/5 ED/5 Cav
20 Monk/5 ED/5 Ranger
20 Monk/5 Ranger/5 Fighter
20 Monk/10 Fighter
20 Monk/10 Divine Champion(Champion of Torm(Doesn't need to be good on Arelith))
30 Monk

To briefly go over some of the classes and their benefits:
ED: 6 Regenation/round and 1 AB, 2 Dodge AC, 2 to all saves while in stance(Slowed down) and 2 Dmg Reduct.
Fighter: More feats. Epic monk is pretty tight on feats so even while having fighter you might not have room for epic weapon spec, but if it can be taken it's obviously nice increase to dmg.
Ranger: Gains -track for.. tracking, if you're in to that. Bonus feat on 1 and 5 so if you take all 5 levels at epic you get 2 bonus feats, as mentioned before Ranger does get access to some wands but also rangers cloth armor, which is a nice cloth.
Divine Champ: 1 less feat than Fighter, can not take weapon specilization feats but gets +1 to all saves/2 levels of DC.
Pure Monk: Pure monk is the steady and relatively easy build that's good at all things that you typically want from a melee warrior, but compared to builds with already 20 monk there isin't much difference.

I personally like 20 Monk with 5 ED. It combines the great all-rounder abilities of monk with the +6 regenation from ED and sneak attack immunity(while not flat-footed. Meaning you're immunity to sneak attacks while attacking basically) basically only leaving crits to worry about, but you'll have high AC, 50% concealement from empty body and epic dodge to avoid mostly being hit anyway.

So any of these builds interest you more than the others?

[Xerah]

I think 'Require armor to be worn' just means you have to have something(even cloth) equipped on the armor slot, atleast things seemed to work fine with the Monk/ED on test server.

No, if that is true then it is a bug that will be fixed.

[ZombieDuck]

So 'armor' in ED means medium/heavy armor? If that is the case the allure of ED on dexers fades quite bit.

[Archnon]

I think 'Require armor to be worn' just means you have to have something(even cloth) equipped on the armor slot, atleast things seemed to work fine with the Monk/ED on test server.

No, if that is true then it is a bug that will be fixed.

Yeah, pretty sure it means any armor that keeps you from getting monk AC bonus. Right?

[AstralUniverse]

There are at least 2 awesome monk builds on the wiki. I personally like the 20 monk 4 cot 6 fighter, but really there are few ways to go wrong with a 30 monk. Just make sure you have dex and wis for the feats requirements (epic dodge, improved ki) and dont take circle kick.

I have been recommending 20 Monk, 5 ranger, 5 fighter. If you take the 4 ranger pre-epic, it nets you a chance to get gsf ABJ for missile protection. The 5 ranger level lets you get blinding speed. This leaves your 4 epic feats for Ki4, Ki5, Epic Dodge, ESF Discipline. You can also take the 5 fighter and pick up armor skin, ewf, epic prowess. An alternative, but it is nice as it opens up some wand use too and gets you all the major feats for a good dex build.

Nice thinking mate. I might start recommending that as well. It actually doesnt cost much to trade cot for ranger since unarmed monks dont exactly have a pre-epic feat shortage. I just tried this on cbc and I didnt even need to sacrifice toughness, while grabbing gsf abjuration pre-epic. I did notice, though, you cant take greater dex on this build because if you need greater dex you will want to trade prowess/bs for it, and you cant take anything else useful on a bonus ranger feat there. So it does have some racial limitations and less conmfy imo, but other than that it's alright for races with bonus dex. Cot's main boon for me was never having to worry about gearing saves, but that's really just QoL, and gsf abjuration is certainly more than that. Ranger cookies are nice too. Tempted to play that with transmutation and 'buy' some gear space through better zoo buffs.

[KeldonDonovans]

Some of the possible 20+ monks would be:
20 Monk/5 ED/5 Fighter
20 Monk/5 ED/5 Cav
20 Monk/5 ED/5 Ranger
20 Monk/5 Ranger/5 Fighter
20 Monk/10 Fighter
20 Monk/10 Divine Champion(Champion of Torm(Doesn't need to be good on Arelith))
30 Monk

So any of these builds interest you more than the others?

Assuming cloth armor works (and will continue to do so) for the ED abilities, the main ones that interest me would be:

20 Monk/5 ED/5 Fighter
20 Monk/5 ED/5 Ranger
20 Monk/10 Fighter
30 Monk

Though I am intrigued by the GSF idea. Does that mean if I were to make, say, a monk/mage/PM I could reach the same crit/sneak immune as ED, and, by taking the mage levels at just the right points, GSF something like evocation so that I've got a ranged Kamehameha? I mean, functionally it should work, I just mean as far as viability goes.

[ZombieDuck]

PMs generally don't make too effective mages, other than with necromancy spells and even less so if there's a third class involved other than Wiz/PM.

If you're interested in PMs for caster I'd recommend 14 Wizard/16 PM, but that's just your typical palemaster and caster on top of that, doesn't really fit the idea of 'Buffles wonder'.

For melee PMs there's 11 Hexblade/3 BG/16 PM that gets Epic Mage Armor, Divine Shield/Smite(10 Cha mod), 4 attacks/round + haste, curse weapon that gives +4 dmg and +2 vamp reg(Unless you swap the dmg for Epic prowess), Mummy dust(Which is 3 undead summons that are decent, but which you don't have that must ability to buff, atleast not easily), Dracolich summon and good AC combined with a bit low AB/Dmg(Which is somewhat negated by high taunt you can get with it, so you can essentially lower peoples AC by 6 if they don't have high concentration).
This build too hardly fits the theme here, but it does have PM immunities and reach some level of power by just casting EMA, which you can do unlimited number of times.

I'd like to get confirmation from somewhere about ED abilities working with cloth armor before starting any Dex EDs.

The 30 monk is a very steady build on pretty much any race you can start with 19 Dex/16 Wisdom(Starting gifts included).

[KeldonDonovans]

PMs generally don't make too effective mages, other than with necromancy spells and even less so if there's a third class involved other than Wiz/PM.

Oh I just meant to get the immunities in a melee build, with the potential of doing something like GSF evocation to be able to toss magic missile instead of a traditional ranged attack. Although, with your suggestion of unlocking PM by using Hexblade, what about a hexblade/monk/pm? Dual wielding monk weapons with cursed weapons sounds rather potent, replacing the standard regen of ED with Vamp Regen from our curse. Though I admittedly may be missing something.

[ZombieDuck]

As the 11 Hex/3 BG/16 PM already has a bit low AB, the Hex/Monk/PM would have even lower AB becouse Monk gets less AB than BG and dual-wielding further reduces ab by 2.
Being able to dual-wield you'd also need to spend 3 feats on Ambidexterity, Two-weapon fighting and Imp. Two-weapon fighting and adding monk generally means you're dumping shield and trying to raise your AC with Dex/Wis and that needs weapon finesse aswell, so that's 4th feat spend.
All that added up just means you're sacrificing AB/Dmg/Feats for some AC/AttacksPerRound on a build that already has good AC, but lacks in AB so the extra attacks are not too likely to hit when that low AB is lowered even further.

About the GSF feats and granting spells you need Wizard/Sorc levels for that and they're nice as extra stuff for mages that typically just watch their summons/buffed party members wreck things while saving their important offensive spells for critical situations.

http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Warlock
If you're really interested in magic pew-pewing there's always the Warlock, fiend- or feylock.
Both have selected list of spells on infinity cast(so you can just cast them infinite amount of times).
Eldritch Blast which is (1d6 + 1)*(Caster Level/2) so pretty potent and as you level you unlock different dmg types with both types of warlocks getting access to magic dmg from 12 onwards, which goes pretty much through anything.
They mainly differ on their list of spells and the fact that Fiendlock has a fiend they summon that grows in power as they level while they feylocks have a bit more potent spells, even getting access to haste(which they can only have active on 1 other person besides themself, resulting in pretty much unlimited haste on you + 1 friend of yours).

Both varietys warlocks can get powerful on a quick windup, but the feylock is a bit better at that. Or they can just straight up blasting eldritch blast the moment they wake up, which is fine too.

Warlocks typically build for Epic Dmg Reduct feats(Which is now easier since it only needs 19 con) that combined with their Dmg immunity boost means they can take bit of a beating even thought they are 'casters class'.

If you want more info on warlocks just try the link or ask.

[KeldonDonovans]

Valid points about Hex/monk/PM

Thanks! That's the kind of stuff I'm here for. As I said, I spend a lot of time reading over all my options on the wiki, but there is a massive difference between good on paper, and good in practice, and its that viability that is difficult to glean from reading the wiki again and again.

As for warlock, I've played them several times. My main issue is that they have no way of damaging groups (at least not until level 28), and most of the control AoE's they do get effect your party, summons, and even yourself. Just today I saw a warlock fear himself because he cast on a creature who moved too close. He almost died, despite being well high enough level to handle the creatures he was fighting. Not to mention, I really don't want to build yet another warlock when its supposed to be becoming its own class (soon? Hopefully?), leaving the odd hodgepodge of bard path behind. I'm excited to build a warlock when the class comes out though, but for now, nothing majoring in warlock.

[AstralUniverse]

As the 11 Hex/3 BG/16 PM already has a bit low AB, the Hex/Monk/PM would have even lower AB becouse Monk gets less AB than BG and dual-wielding further reduces ab by 2.
Being able to dual-wield you'd also need to spend 3 feats on Ambidexterity, Two-weapon fighting and Imp. Two-weapon fighting and adding monk generally means you're dumping shield and trying to raise your AC with Dex/Wis and that needs weapon finesse aswell, so that's 4th feat spend.
All that added up just means you're sacrificing AB/Dmg/Feats for some AC/AttacksPerRound on a build that already has good AC, but lacks in AB so the extra attacks are not too likely to hit when that low AB is lowered even further.

This is incorrect.

monk/hex/pm is actually a strength based build that uses Naginata and is superior to 11 hex 3 bg 16 pm in every possible factor. As dodge ac is capped at +20, the divine dip build only gets 5 ac from their divine shield, while the monk variation gets 15 ac from dex and wisdom, while being strength based and comes out with higher ac (also has tumble class), higher ab (has 2h weapon) and probably damage as well, due to being 2h weapon with 6 base apr instead of 4.

[KeldonDonovans]

monk/hex/pm is actually a strength based build that uses Naginata and is superior to 11 hex 3 bg 16 pm in every possible factor. As dodge ac is capped at +20, the divine dip build only gets 5 ac from their divine shield, while the monk variation gets 15 ac from dex and wisdom, while being strength based and comes out with higher ac (also has tumble class), higher ab (has 2h weapon) and probably damage as well, due to being 2h weapon with 6 base apr instead of 4.

Please elaborate? Or are you talking the 11hexblade/4monk/15 pm from the wiki?

[AstralUniverse]

It is the build from the wiki, yes. Doing that classes combo as dex based is non viable.