Dual Wield: Which Weapons are Best?

[Cuchilla]

A question for the builders:

What is the best choice (dual wield)?:

Masterly Damask Longsword: 1d8. 19-20/x2. ab 3. Slashing damage 6
Masterly Damask rapier: 1d6. 18-20/x2. ab 3. Piercing Damage 6
Avarice Rapier: 1d6. 18-20/x2. ab 3. Piercing damage 3. Massive Criticals 1d10
+ the usual essences om them, and the (Epic) weapon focus, not included in the stats.

Offhand:
Dagger +4.
Any of the rapiers mentionned above.

[Bunnysmack]

If you are one of the races that get a racially-locked one-handed weapon, that is almost always the best option (Moonblade, Dale Sword, Dwarven Rune Axe, etc.). Barring those options, I'd likely go with the masterly damask rapier as the main choice.

To break down the numbers...A longsword will do an average of 1 extra damage per hit than a rapier (Average damage for 1d8 is 4.5, average damage for 1d6 is 3.5). Because the keen effect stacks with improved critical however, the extra crit range of rapier ends up being a net increase of 15% crit chance compared to longsword. If you are fighting things that are immune to critical hits: Longsword is a little better. If crits are effective, however, then rapier is usually the better choice.

As for the rapier comparison of Masterly Damask versus avarice, always go for guaranteed damage over massive crit damage. Especially in this situation, as the 3 extra damage from masterly damask is subject to being multiplied by a crit, so even when you DO crit (which is the only time the bonus from Avarice is even applied), you still on average do more damage with masterly damask than you do with avarice (6 extra from M. Damask, versus an average of 5.5 extra from Avarice).

[Gouge Away]

If you can get to 30 UMD "Dead Man's Cross" is probably best offhand edged weapon.

[AstralUniverse]

with just martial prof: mdam rapier + dagger

with exotic prof: mdam rapier + kukri (or just 2 mdam kukries because it looks a lot better)

with 30 umd: 2 dmc OR mdam rapier + dmc (dead man's cross, for clarity)

As long as the weapon in the off-hand is small or tiny and the weapon in the right hand is mdam rapier, moonblade, dmc or mdam kukri. I like wide crits over 1 ab but thats arguable.

[Ordo.Lupus]

Are we only considering craftable weapons?
What about the class + spells?
What about race?

Say you're a lvl 21 ranger. Then I would probably say the elemental longsword better than the masterly damask.
Unbuffed the longsword might lack the +3 AB but it has 1d4 fire/cold/acid/sonic/electrical dam. When you cast BT then you gain a +4 enchantment. If you can add a Keen dweomercraft then great but not needed.
The masterly damask is "only" +3 AB and +6 dam. And the +6 dam can be effected by dam resistance from armour.

If you add a +4 div perm esssence and a +4 temp pos essence then the elemental sword would be dealing almost all damage types and at a +4 enchantment level.

For rapier I would probably opt for the greensteel one instead since I would take advantage of it's 18-20 threat range which can be increased via Keen + Imp.crit. That will net you a 1d6 @ 12-20 x2. Base damage might be slightly lower but you will crit alot more.

And thanks to Areliths mechanics both sword are treated as same Imp.crit thus you can choose between elemental longsword or greensteel rapier depending on your foe.

[AstralUniverse]

doesnt perma essence override all the elemental damage in the Longsword of Elements? afaik, only e.damage from basin stacks with a later applied perma essence.

[Cuchilla]

Thank you for the answers!

I didn't have a clue before, I most certainly have now.

[Hinty]

My understanding is that Permanent Essences only cause issues if combined with a weapon that already has a basic bonus of the same damage type.

So adding Divine Damage to a 1d6 Fire weapon is fine.
Adding Divine damage to a 1d6 Divine damage weapon is not.
Adding Divine Damage to a 1d6 Divine vs Evil weapon is fine.

[Ebonstar]

Are we only considering craftable weapons?
What about the class + spells?
What about race?

Say you're a lvl 21 ranger. Then I would probably say the elemental longsword better than the masterly damask.
Unbuffed the longsword might lack the +3 AB but it has 1d4 fire/cold/acid/sonic/electrical dam. When you cast BT then you gain a +4 enchantment. If you can add a Keen dweomercraft then great but not needed.
The masterly damask is "only" +3 AB and +6 dam. And the +6 dam can be effected by dam resistance from armour.

If you add a +4 div perm esssence and a +4 temp pos essence then the elemental sword would be dealing almost all damage types and at a +4 enchantment level.

For rapier I would probably opt for the greensteel one instead since I would take advantage of it's 18-20 threat range which can be increased via Keen + Imp.crit. That will net you a 1d6 @ 12-20 x2. Base damage might be slightly lower but you will crit alot more.

And thanks to Areliths mechanics both sword are treated as same Imp.crit thus you can choose between elemental longsword or greensteel rapier depending on your foe.

if you add a perm essence the natural elemental damage will be lost, only basin added which is a 5% roll will it take another permanent damage type

[Seven Sons of Sin]

To Use the Elder Dream as an example. It has,

+2d6 Divine Damage.

Applying any Permanent Essence Damage overrides the +2d6 Divine Damage.
Applying a +1d4 elemental damage via Dweomercraft does not override this damage, unless it is Divine damage. So, you can have +2d6 Divine, and +1d4 cold.
You can apply a Defensive Permanent essence to the spear. So you can have +2d6 Divine Damage, and 5/- Divine Damage.

The Dwarven Rune Axe has,

vs Orcs, 4 Cold damage
vs Goblinoids, 4 Cold damage
vs. Half-orcs, 2 Cold Damage.

The big difference between the Rune Axe and the Elder Dream, is that you CAN apply a Permanent Damage Essence to the Rune Axe because its damage bonuses are vs. racial types.

The rule of thumb is that if the elemental damage bonus is vs. racial type, you can add Permanent Essence. If it is a universal damage bonus, you can't.

[AstralUniverse]

My understanding is that Permanent Essences only cause issues if combined with a weapon that already has a basic bonus of the same damage type.

So adding Divine Damage to a 1d6 Fire weapon is fine.
Adding Divine damage to a 1d6 Divine damage weapon is not.
Adding Divine Damage to a 1d6 Divine vs Evil weapon is fine.

Not exactly, as Seven explained and I will explain too, more briefly.

The only elemental (this includes positive, negative and divine even though they're not technically elemental types) damage type that stacks with a later applied perma essence is damage added via basin or damage vs something (race, alignment, etc).

[mjones3]

doesnt perma essence override all the elemental damage in the Longsword of Elements? afaik, only e.damage from basin stacks with a later applied perma essence.

It does. Any essence will overwrite all elemental/pos/neg/div on non basin weapons thats not specific. If its 1d6 frost damage VS orcs it won't be over written but if its 1d6 frost it will be.