Rogue/Blackguard Build

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Waldo52
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Waldo52 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:42 pm

Skarain wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:22 pm
Waldo52 wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:27 pm
Unless there's a decent mace or other rogue weapon that could compete with it. Doubtful
Image

In terms of epic feats, you should have a total of 6x.

Rogue gets a bonus feat at levels (10th, 13th, 16th and 19th). , and at Epic Levels at 24 and 28. One of the pre-20 feats gets pushed to Epic levels by 4 BG before 20.

The Selection pre-20 is:
• crippling strike
• defensive roll
• improved evasion
• opportunist
• skill mastery
• slippery mind

Epic Rogue Bonus Feats are: blinding speed, crippling strike, defensive roll, epic dodge, epic reputation, epic skill focus (all but animal empathy, perform, use magic device), improved evasion, improved sneak attack, opportunist, self concealment, skill mastery, slippery mind, superior initiative

To take Epic Dodge, you need to have Improved Evasion and Defensive Roll....

Base Feats (7)
1st level: Ambidexterity
1st level (Human): Two Weapon Fighting
3rd lvl: Expertise
6th lvl: Improved Expertise
9th lvl: Weapon Focus: (Something)
12th lvl: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
15th lvl: Improved Critical
18th lvl: Blind Fighting

Rogue Feats (5)
10th: Defensive Roll
13th: Improved Evasion
16th: <<pick what like, crippling strike? Would fit the thug and dirty fighting theme. Paladins going to love their STR disappear. One of the others though allows you to Take 20 in combat, something to consider for in-combat trap use.>>
(Epic) 19th: Epic Skill Focus: Traps/Hide/Lore (???)
(Epic) 24th: Epic Skill Focus: ???

Base Epic Feats (4)
21st: Epic Weapon Focus
24th: Greater DEX (or something else. You don't HAVE to land on 26, 25 is prequisite for Blinding Speed and Epic Dodge. If want rather ESF: Lore or some other, go for it!)
27th: Blinding Speed
30th: Epic Dodge

Disclaimer!!:
Again, test on PGCC or in spreadsheet to make sure I've not missed anything.
I must make one more request for guidance.

I'm level 23 now and as I've said before I'm following this build to the letter except for the swapping of improved critical for knockdown.

However I'm also having second thoughts about the special bonus feat selection at rogue level 24.

For rogue level 19 I took epic spell focus (set trap), as I've always wanted to make this guy a master trapper.

For rogue level 24 I assumed I would take epic skill focus (hide) which is seems like a good idea gor a rogue. However I do also see Improved Sneak attack on the list of special rogue feats as well.

My build is supposed to cap at 14d6 sneak attack but so far while his damage is good he doesn't feel like quite the killing machine I imagined. Would ISA be a good substitute for ESF?

I'm unaware of how good the typical epic level opponent is at spotting and therefore I don't know if ESF hide is an absolute necessity, a total waste of time or just something I should be replicating with camouflage scrolls.

Curve
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Curve » Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:29 pm

I can't think of a single situation I would take Improved Sneak Attack. I have started taking ESF: Hide/MS over combat feats, even. I'll typically prioritize it over Epic Prowess. So, yeah, if it was me I would take ESF: Hide/MS.

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Skarain
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Skarain » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:37 am

I imagine the "killing machine" part comes when you've attained all the best gear you have and are max level. You are still gaining more AB and better gear.

However, Rogue base needs Sneak Attacks to feel murderous. You may need to use underhanded tactics or your KD murder to achieve that. You are not a Barbarian Weaponmaster with huge crits, but you sure do have a lot more attacks than them. Full enchanted weapons with essences paired with sneak attack plus your many Attacks Per Round with two wrapon fighting should be your source of pain.

Feats are precious, and if you want to be a good sneak, I too would take esf hide/ms.

Prowess is a 5% higher chance to hit, but if a target is flatfooted for any reason, you shouldn't be needing that to begin with.

Still, what you CAN do is leave the very last feat you are unsure as last, if it is possible. That way, it will pain you less if you request a DM to remove a few levels from you. you can then test out one, and if you feel like you'd rather take more hit chance, you can swap.

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Waldo52
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Waldo52 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:32 pm

You both seem to like ESF Hide, I'll just go with that. I do want to be stealthy as hell.

Thank you for the help

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Skarain
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Skarain » Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:22 am

Stealth and Spot are skills that you "go hard or go home". There can never be enough. You can make due with 33 ranks of stealth + dex, but that will not beat a dedicated spotter. 33 ranks + wisdom for spotting favours the Detector, since you are making Stealth rolls every 6 second. Eventually you will roll 1 or 2 and your spying operation is ruined.

With Blinsing Speed or Darkness wand or... unsure if a rogue grenade does it, but you have means to re-enter stealth. For those situations too, more Hide/MS is better.

Both ESF: Hide and Move Silently give the other one, so you get 2 feats in one. Before that chance, it would've been too expensive to take. You can also search for Ring of Hiding. Grant +5 to Hide/MS each and you can have two.

Also you can supliment that potential +1AB from feat by drinking a True Strike potion. Whops +20 AB (up to the cap, so not actually that high) > get Knockdown off > Get a Sneak Attack Flurry = profit.

Blossom
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Blossom » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:12 am

I'm not saying this to contradict since that is great advice but I would point out (because it was asked above) that dedicated spotters aren't all that common. 33 in disguise and sneak skills can be "good enough" to get past most of the server (like, upper 90s percentwise I would estimate) without ESF investment. If you're gonna play a pirate or plan to infiltrate enemy turf a lot this is still not good enough especially if anyone's actively looking for you but you can be a very effective sneak without ESF with just gear, dex, 33 skill and a few other boosts-- you just have to expect to fail a little more often. There's also the issue of true sight so every sneak will get busted sometimes, it's just going to happen.

Spotters absolutely DO have to maximize and take ESF, though with the rare exception of like, a cleric/ranger or masochistic wisdom monk most of them aren't wisdom-based characters so they'll always be playing catchup too.

Last thing is epic skill focus: set trap might be one to reconsider if & when you get a chance to rebuild. 33 skill+dex will let you set all traps. There's still benefit in super- high set trap skill but it's mostly about detection and that becomes really situational.

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Waldo52
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Waldo52 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:08 pm

Blossom wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:12 am
I'm not saying this to contradict since that is great advice but I would point out (because it was asked above) that dedicated spotters aren't all that common. 33 in disguise and sneak skills can be "good enough" to get past most of the server (like, upper 90s percentwise I would estimate) without ESF investment. If you're gonna play a pirate or plan to infiltrate enemy turf a lot this is still not good enough especially if anyone's actively looking for you but you can be a very effective sneak without ESF with just gear, dex, 33 skill and a few other boosts-- you just have to expect to fail a little more often. There's also the issue of true sight so every sneak will get busted sometimes, it's just going to happen.

Spotters absolutely DO have to maximize and take ESF, though with the rare exception of like, a cleric/ranger or masochistic wisdom monk most of them aren't wisdom-based characters so they'll always be playing catchup too.

Last thing is epic skill focus: set trap might be one to reconsider if & when you get a chance to rebuild. 33 skill+dex will let you set all traps. There's still benefit in super- high set trap skill but it's mostly about detection and that becomes really situational.
Interesting reply.

I actually AM a pirate and plan on regularly raiding and sneaking around so I'm startimg to think I do need it. 🤭

Also the set trap thing is a little dumb but I sort of want to be that guy on the server with the most undetectable and deadly traps. It's an intensely personal thing, although technically I know there were better options there like Lore.

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Skarain
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Skarain » Sun May 02, 2021 8:25 am

Nothing wrong with wanting to use traps. They got better with an update that tossess traps that friendly or neutral pc walk over back to you bag. That way, you don't have to worry about Rules of Engagement as much as you did before. Can have a proper trap setup, the RP and hostile if needed, but won't result in a rulebreak because someone invisible ran past you and died to traps.

Blossom does have a point. There are alternatives to ESF: Hide/MS. Any other ESF is also as much worth it, if it gives something you want or need.

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Waldo52
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Waldo52 » Mon May 03, 2021 8:15 pm

Thanks for the advice guys!!! I think I'll go with hide but change it up a bit in my next character. ESF Lore seems powerful and Bluff would be too freaking funny.

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