Rogue/Blackguard Build

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Waldo52
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Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Waldo52 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:33 pm

I'm interested in building a rogue/blackguard. You folks have helped me before with a spellsword build and the advice really helped. This next character is even more precious to me and I want to build it in a somewhat decent way. I'm level 8 and hope I haven't messed him up so far.

The premise is that he's an evil thug with a grudge against paladins. While he's not a necromancer or warlock himself he prefers to hang around those types because of their moral attitudes. While the character is a blast I need a bit of direction build-wise. Keep in mind, the priority is PVP.

So far I'm a level 8 rogue but I plan on going 25 rogue/5 blackguard. I realize the fighter is objectively probably superior, but blackguard feels too right and I already took the charisma. Because its a personal obsession I want to focus on trapping as much as possible, even if it makes me *slightly* weaker in general.

My starting stats

STR 10
DEX 16 (18 with gift)
CON 14
INT 14 (16 with gift)
WIS 8
CHA 14

Skills:

So far I have maxed out the following: Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Set Trap, Craft Trap, Bluff, Tumble, Lore, Spellcraft

I have a single rank in disable device for recovering my own traps and plan on pumping discipline with blackguard levels

Feats:
1) Ambidexterity
1)*human bonus feat* Two Weapon Fighting
3) Expertise
6) Improved Expertise

I'm about to hit level 9 and I want some advice on which feats to take, and see if I'm on the right track with my skills. I really don't want to remake again and have to be careful not to botch this build!

I tend to see Blind Fight in most of these builds so I suppose I'll need that. I'm wondering how vital weapon focus and improved critical are. I'd like Skill Focus: Set trap, unless you guys think that's a bad idea. And knockdown is a personal favorite of mine so I'd love to get it if I can grab it. Epic Skill focus Set Trap is something I'm dead set on.

With all this, how should I proceed? If you had to build this guy up to 30, how would you do it?

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Skarain
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Skarain » Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:58 pm

First of all, I advise you to test your build to the very end on PGCC server. That place allows for mistakes, and you might spot something you otherwise missed. Otherwise, I personally advocate the use of spreadsheets to plan you every single level, so you have a better idea of what feat to take on what level - and how many optional feats you have to spare.

Skill Focus : "anything" is generally not worth the investment. A mere +3 to a skill is nothing unless you aim to squeeze absolutely everything out of a skill. Epic Skill Focus however can be worth it.

Blind Fighting is a quality of life. Many mobs and PC's have a 50% Concealment effect on them. It means that 50% of all of your attacks will miss. Blind Fighting reduces that chance to 25%, hence why a lot people take it.

Weapon Focuses and Epic Weapon Focus increase you AB. You deal damage by hitting things and by increasing your AB, you hit things more often. Usually, those are the cornerstone of any melee build. Improved Critical is nice to have, but you can probably live without it if need be, but it is one of those feats that do maximize your damage output.

Did you aim to go for Divine Might/Shield? If you did, your build is already gimpped, as they require Power Attack which require 13 STR. If the BG is just for the flavour, poison usage and saves - then you're good.

Knockdown is always nice to have if you can afford it.

But to answer your question.... well, most people who would build such a character up to level 30 would likely take Divine Shield, Divine Might, Blinding Speed and Epic Dodge - and build the rest around it. However, you do not HAVE to build like everyone else. I play gimmicks and odd things all the time. It is about playing what you enjoy.

Just my few, isolated odd thoughts.

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Waldo52
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Waldo52 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:25 pm

Thank you for the input, particularly the clarification about weapon focus and epic weapon focus being essential and the direction you gave me regarding skill focus and epic skill focus.

I actually am not going for divine might/shield. In the blackguard I saw a more flavorful alternative to fighter. It's less conventionally optimal in terms of feats but does up my sneak attack by 1d6, grant access to poison (something paladins aren't immune to), gives me a very modest smite good and ups my saves.

I'll try this on the level 30 server as you suggested.

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Waldo52
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Waldo52 » Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:36 am

Sorry to be a bother, but I'm on the test server making a level 30 server and can't take greater two weapon fighting. I have improved TWF, TWF, ambidexterity and the required BaB. Is this feat disabled on Arelith?

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Maladus
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Maladus » Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:14 am

I don't think Greater Two-Weapon Fighting exists as a feat, so unless you played on another server that added it I don't know where you saw it.

Another thing to note, you will want to take your first 4 levels of Blackguard pre-epic and the final one at 30 or thereabouts for a skill dump into Discipline. This will enable you to maximize your attacks per round.

Also, you could consider grabbing Exotic Proficiency for kukris, then you can take Imp. Critical for some dual wielding fun.

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Skarain
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Skarain » Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:42 am

Maybe it is just me, but I don't think Kukris fit the theme of a Paladin-hating thug.

Improved Two Weapon Fighting is the "capstone" of two-weapon fighting on Arelith. There's no Greater variant.

Regarding Blackguard use and Poisons, there exists a Belt (loot drop) that grants Poison Immunity. Encircling Scales I think it was called. It can be helpful if you use cloud-based poison bombs, such as Choking Powder.

Definitely take 4 BG levels before lvl 20. It grants you 4 APR opposed to 3 APR + slightly higher AB.

Now, further feedback. You start with 18 DEX, meaning 7 ability score improvements net you 25 DEX. If you have an epic feat to spare, consider evening out the score to 26. Uneven numbers give no benefit.

Secondly, if you go for 25 DEX, definitely aim for Blinding Speed. On Arelith, it grants 3 turns Haste and 8 min CD that is reduced by Rogue levels. In your case, the CD will be maybe 4-5 minutes, so a hefty uptime. Useful both in combat and in general running around.

Again, as said before, Epic Dodge is great. It is a good capstone of DEX based characters.

On Arelith if you take ESF: Hide or MS, you are automatically granted the other. In essence, both your sneak skills get up by +10 with that feat. Something to consider, depending how sneaky you wish to be and how many feats you have to spare. Usually full combat capacity builds sacrifice in terms of utility, but I've not built enough Melees to really know.
So far I have maxed out the following: Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Set Trap, Craft Trap, Bluff, Tumble, Lore, Spellcraft
You might want to consider ESF: Lore + Lore gear if you wish to use highest level Scrolls in the game. From PvP point of view, there are things like Greater Spell Breach (6th level) and Word of Faith (7th lvl, saveless dismiss all enemy summons if beat SR) scrolls. For reference, +5 Lore rings exist from vendors, a +5 Lore head exists and a 4~5 lore cloak exists. On top of that, all gear can be enchanted with +2 Lore.

You may also want to invest 15 points into UMD, or more to use UMD-locked weapons. UMD 15 allows you to use Wands, which is a quality of life for self-buffing. They last longer than scrolls and weight less than potions.

As for UMD weapons.... Typically the difference is.... a non-UMD weapon is +3 Masterly Damask that people try to 5% enchant in basin for Keen. Racial and Class-locked weapons however are +4 and automatically Keen, plus some other benefits. All crafted weapons are listed on Arelith Wiki > Weapons. Could use Black Scepter, Dead Man Cross or Lesser Moonblade based on your preference - for example.

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Waldo52
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Waldo52 » Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:27 pm

So much to respond to!

First, greater two weapon fighting does exist on the Neverwinter wiki but it must not be on Arelith. I'm relieved, another feat I won't have to bother withn on a feat hungry build: https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Greater_two-weapon_fighting

I agree with Skarain that Kukris don't fit the theme of a paladin slaying thug and I'm extremely fear starved between getting those vital survival/function feats and a couple more compelling/flavorful ones. Exotic weapon proficiency isn't vital, nor is it absolutely necessary to the flavor of "I set traps, sneak around, knock people down and kill them." I think the default for these builds is the rapier. A little boring but reliable, unless there's a decent mace or other rogue weapon that could compete with it. Doubtful.

I'm aware of the need for 4 BG levels by level 20 and another at 29 or 30.

Blinding speed. Epic dodge. Great dexterity to round out my Dex to an even number. ESF set trap, hide and possibly lore. Epic weapon focus. Mathematically I don't think I can choose all those but at least now I know what pool of feats to choose from.

Thank you. If there are any points I didn't address, just know I'll be rereading everything. It's a lot to consider.

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Skarain
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Skarain » Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:22 pm

Waldo52 wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:27 pm
Unless there's a decent mace or other rogue weapon that could compete with it. Doubtful
Image

In terms of epic feats, you should have a total of 6x.

Rogue gets a bonus feat at levels (10th, 13th, 16th and 19th). , and at Epic Levels at 24 and 28. One of the pre-20 feats gets pushed to Epic levels by 4 BG before 20.

The Selection pre-20 is:
• crippling strike
• defensive roll
• improved evasion
• opportunist
• skill mastery
• slippery mind

Epic Rogue Bonus Feats are: blinding speed, crippling strike, defensive roll, epic dodge, epic reputation, epic skill focus (all but animal empathy, perform, use magic device), improved evasion, improved sneak attack, opportunist, self concealment, skill mastery, slippery mind, superior initiative

To take Epic Dodge, you need to have Improved Evasion and Defensive Roll....

Base Feats (7)
1st level: Ambidexterity
1st level (Human): Two Weapon Fighting
3rd lvl: Expertise
6th lvl: Improved Expertise
9th lvl: Weapon Focus: (Something)
12th lvl: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
15th lvl: Improved Critical
18th lvl: Blind Fighting

Rogue Feats (5)
10th: Defensive Roll
13th: Improved Evasion
16th: <<pick what like, crippling strike? Would fit the thug and dirty fighting theme. Paladins going to love their STR disappear. One of the others though allows you to Take 20 in combat, something to consider for in-combat trap use.>>
(Epic) 19th: Epic Skill Focus: Traps/Hide/Lore (???)
(Epic) 24th: Epic Skill Focus: ???

Base Epic Feats (4)
21st: Epic Weapon Focus
24th: Greater DEX (or something else. You don't HAVE to land on 26, 25 is prequisite for Blinding Speed and Epic Dodge. If want rather ESF: Lore or some other, go for it!)
27th: Blinding Speed
30th: Epic Dodge

Disclaimer!!:
Again, test on PGCC or in spreadsheet to make sure I've not missed anything.

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Maladus
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Maladus » Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:41 pm

The feat you linked was added in a community made expansion pack, not official content.

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Waldo52
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Waldo52 » Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:20 pm

Maladus wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:41 pm
The feat you linked was added in a community made expansion pack, not official content.
And to think I've been building up to this feat end even telling my friends to take it... LOL

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Waldo52
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Waldo52 » Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:31 pm

Skarain wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:22 pm
Waldo52 wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:27 pm
Unless there's a decent mace or other rogue weapon that could compete with it. Doubtful
Image

In terms of epic feats, you should have a total of 6x.

Rogue gets a bonus feat at levels (10th, 13th, 16th and 19th). , and at Epic Levels at 24 and 28. One of the pre-20 feats gets pushed to Epic levels by 4 BG before 20.

The Selection pre-20 is:
• crippling strike
• defensive roll
• improved evasion
• opportunist
• skill mastery
• slippery mind

Epic Rogue Bonus Feats are: blinding speed, crippling strike, defensive roll, epic dodge, epic reputation, epic skill focus (all but animal empathy, perform, use magic device), improved evasion, improved sneak attack, opportunist, self concealment, skill mastery, slippery mind, superior initiative

To take Epic Dodge, you need to have Improved Evasion and Defensive Roll....

Base Feats (7)
1st level: Ambidexterity
1st level (Human): Two Weapon Fighting
3rd lvl: Expertise
6th lvl: Improved Expertise
9th lvl: Weapon Focus: (Something)
12th lvl: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
15th lvl: Improved Critical
18th lvl: Blind Fighting

Rogue Feats (5)
10th: Defensive Roll
13th: Improved Evasion
16th: <<pick what like, crippling strike? Would fit the thug and dirty fighting theme. Paladins going to love their STR disappear. One of the others though allows you to Take 20 in combat, something to consider for in-combat trap use.>>
(Epic) 19th: Epic Skill Focus: Traps/Hide/Lore (???)
(Epic) 24th: Epic Skill Focus: ???

Base Epic Feats (4)
21st: Epic Weapon Focus
24th: Greater DEX (or something else. You don't HAVE to land on 26, 25 is prequisite for Blinding Speed and Epic Dodge. If want rather ESF: Lore or some other, go for it!)
27th: Blinding Speed
30th: Epic Dodge

Disclaimer!!:
Again, test on PGCC or in spreadsheet to make sure I've not missed anything.
You have made things incredibly clear and streamlined for me. Thank you.

The last issue I have it skills. I just want to make sure I didn't make any fatal defects in skill selection. My ranks average out to roughly 11 per level. I'm maxing out the following:

-Hide
-Move Silently
-Spot
-Set Trap
-Craft Trap
-Tumble
-Discipline
-Spellcraft
-Lore
-Bluff (disguise prevents me from getting murdered on sight)

I'm thinking of maxing out UMD as my last skill. I'm only taking one rank in disable trap for recovery purposes and don't think I can afford any ranks in search.

Is my skill selection okay?

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Skarain
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Skarain » Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:36 pm

Waldo52 wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:31 pm
Is my skill selection okay?
Right. As a Rogue, you get 8 skill points per level. Blackguard gets 2 skill points per level. Your INT modifier is essentially +4 as a Human, so you get 48 skill points at 1st level, 200 from 25 (8+4 skill points per level) Rogue, and 24 from 4 BG levels.

That makes 272 Skill points in total. Divide by 33, you get 8.24.

In other words, you can "max out" (33 ranks) 8 skills.

Your selection included 10, so you will have to sacrifice in some department.

I would drop Spellcraft. While useful, it is not a class skill for Rogue/BG, so you'll have to spend twice as many skill points and will max out at a 16 (despite spending 32 points). Skipping that skill makes you lose ~3 to all Saves vs. Spells., but you get a bonus via Blackguard levels which evens it out somewhat.

Image

This is ONE potential way of doing it. It is NOT the only or the right way.

About Feats, you could drop Improved Critical and Greater Dexterity if you wanted for Knockdown & Improved Knockdown, or one of the two. I remember only now that it was something you wanted.

I am not entirely sure how the Melee character balance goes with AB vs. Crit Range, so I am unsure which is more worth losing, DEX 25>26 or Imp. Crit. Depends probably on how your AB will be in general.

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Waldo52
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Waldo52 » Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:46 pm

You were wrong about my skill ranks per level

48 (level 1)

+

288 (12 per level for 24 for aditononal rogue levels)

+

30 (6 per level from my 5 blackguard levels)

We have 366 ranks total, divided by 33 ranks.

366 divided by 33 ranks is 11.09. this has been confirmed on the PGCC and I do in fact have the points for all 11 skills.

However you've been correct on all other fronts. I built the guy exactly how you told me feat-wise. Without extensive knowledge of crafting and high level gear he wasn't exactly crushing it in the arena but I could tell that the build was doing what I wanted it to do. You guys helped me massively with feat selection.

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Skarain
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Skarain » Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:02 pm

Ooops! Yeah, my Spreadsheet didn't count the INT modifier for Rogue levels, and counted as if 4 BG levels and not 5. You're should get a total of 366, so max out every skill you wanted and 55 points over, even after maxing UMD & Lore both.

Did you manage to fit in the Knockdown feat somehow?

Gonagul
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Gonagul » Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:03 pm

Isn’t a high craft trap redundant with set trap? I thought the crafting took the higher of the two (though I think you still need a point in it to open the menu). Might be a way to save sp’s.

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Waldo52
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Waldo52 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:34 pm

Skarain wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:02 pm
Ooops! Yeah, my Spreadsheet didn't count the INT modifier for Rogue levels, and counted as if 4 BG levels and not 5. You're should get a total of 366, so max out every skill you wanted and 55 points over, even after maxing UMD & Lore both.

Did you manage to fit in the Knockdown feat somehow?
Yes. Replaced improved crit. I didn't want to, but I kinda felt like I had to. The ability to get sneak attacks is really vital for me.

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Waldo52
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Waldo52 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:36 pm

Gonagul wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:03 pm
Isn’t a high craft trap redundant with set trap? I thought the crafting took the higher of the two (though I think you still need a point in it to open the menu). Might be a way to save sp’s.
I think the redundancy was intended to be temporary. I'm not gonna risk making a build dedicated to making and setting traps only to find out that Arelith "fixed" the system and now my character is busted.

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Skarain
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Skarain » Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:30 pm

Critical hits help vs. Super high AC targets. People with like...... 70 AC due to buffs or other. Was it that critical hits autohit, or did you also need to succeed with the Threat Roll to actually hit?

If crit didn't mean that you autohit, then yeah, then you're better off without. Even if their AC was too high for you to hit, there are ways to fix that. Flatfooting someone, darkness wand, running and cornersneaking, spam Rogue grenades that the target is weak against. You know.... rogue tactics!

As a note about traps, you can not craft Epic Traps, only up to Deadly I think. Epic Ones you will have to recover. Also definitely get a Trappers Toolbox (Greater). Makes lugging around your trap stacks much more convenient.

Gonagul
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Gonagul » Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:37 pm

Waldo52 wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:36 pm
Gonagul wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:03 pm
Isn’t a high craft trap redundant with set trap? I thought the crafting took the higher of the two (though I think you still need a point in it to open the menu). Might be a way to save sp’s.
I think the redundancy was intended to be temporary. I'm not gonna risk making a build dedicated to making and setting traps only to find out that Arelith "fixed" the system and now my character is busted.
Yeah if that's the case I think you're taking a very sensible precaution.
Skarain wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:30 pm
As a note about traps, you can not craft Epic Traps, only up to Deadly I think. Epic Ones you will have to recover. Also definitely get a Trappers Toolbox (Greater). Makes lugging around your trap stacks much more convenient.
This was the route my rogue took vs crafting traps. Seeing what traps you recover is really fun, while also just getting really good a disabling them in general. May be worth considering, though I suppose it doesn't help with you skill points issue.

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Waldo52
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Waldo52 » Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:48 pm

Gonagul wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:37 pm
Waldo52 wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:36 pm
Gonagul wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:03 pm
Isn’t a high craft trap redundant with set trap? I thought the crafting took the higher of the two (though I think you still need a point in it to open the menu). Might be a way to save sp’s.
I think the redundancy was intended to be temporary. I'm not gonna risk making a build dedicated to making and setting traps only to find out that Arelith "fixed" the system and now my character is busted.
Yeah if that's the case I think you're taking a very sensible precaution.
Skarain wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:30 pm
As a note about traps, you can not craft Epic Traps, only up to Deadly I think. Epic Ones you will have to recover. Also definitely get a Trappers Toolbox (Greater). Makes lugging around your trap stacks much more convenient.
This was the route my rogue took vs crafting traps. Seeing what traps you recover is really fun, while also just getting really good a disabling them in general. May be worth considering, though I suppose it doesn't help with you skill points issue.
Sadly trap recovery is never going to be my strong suit.

After maxing craft/set traps, hide/ms/spot, discipline/tumble/spellcraft, Lore/UMD and bluff for disguising to save my skin and that one lone disable trap rank for recovering my own traps, I have 6 skill ranks total left. Maybe I could cut Lore or UMD in half and pump 15/16 ranks in disable trap, or cut them both by a third and get twenty ranks in disable trap.

I don't know how optimal that would be, and there's also the matter of me not having any budget for the search skill.

I may just rely on lucky corpse drops and trade with others for epic traps, as recovery is an uphill battle with my skill budget. Hopefully strong and deadly traps can be decent against players too.

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Dr. B
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Dr. B » Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:05 pm

Skarain wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:42 am
Maybe it is just me, but I don't think Kukris fit the theme of a Paladin-hating thug.
It's just you.

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Waldo52
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Waldo52 » Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:53 pm

Dr. B wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:05 pm
Skarain wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:42 am
Maybe it is just me, but I don't think Kukris fit the theme of a Paladin-hating thug.
It's just you.
Hah!

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Waldo52
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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Waldo52 » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:41 pm

I'd like to thank everybody one more time for all the help. there's really no worse feeling than realizing a cherished character is botched and has to be remade because of avoidable character design errors, and all the advice I got here helped me avoid that fate.

I'm level 11. This dude is an absolute blast to play and the path for feat selection is crystal clear.

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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:25 am

Rogue/bg should be using DMCs not kukries. you also shouldnt waste a precious feat on Exotic prof. to get it.

Crits, on heavy rogue, dont really change your dps by much unless you're face tanking without getting sneaks off, and in that case you should be using rapier/moonblade and shield anyway.

Another thing..
Skarain wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:30 pm
Critical hits help vs. Super high AC targets. People with like...... 70 AC due to buffs or other. Was it that critical hits autohit, or did you also need to succeed with the Threat Roll to actually hit?
Critical hit range has diminishing return against high ac targets because you *do not* magically hit things outside of your ab range just because you roll within your crit range (the only exception is natural 20).
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Rogue/Blackguard Build

Post by Good Character » Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:27 am

Critical hits have zero return on high AC targets. Assuming you land a nat 20, which means you automatically hit the target, doesn't mean you automatically crit. If their AC is 20 above your maximum hit (e.g. X > 68 max hit due to 48 attack bonus + 20 roll), then you will never crit.

It's why it's absolutely pointless for some builds to go improved critical, and why it's so important to push your AB as high as you can.

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