Invisible blade Challenge

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Rico_scorpion
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Invisible blade Challenge

Post by Rico_scorpion » Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:06 pm

Hey,

Builders unite!

Here's your mission objective: You must create a build that is good in pve. Here are some conditions. These conditions are absolute.

- Must have 5 Invisible blade levels
- Must be centered around bleed. You can almost rename the thread "make Invisible blade's bleed matter". As in, the consequence of this build should be "whoa, bleed is effective!" (as in, as effective or better than direct damage). Note that the bleed being effective doesn't have to be effective in all environments, if you manage to make it "super good" in a very particular setting but otherwise it's advise not to bother with it, that is still valid.
- It doesn't have to be pvp friendly/competitive.
- It can be a meme build as long as "bleed" is a cornerstone of it/viable/effective in at least one environment

There, have at it!

Note: I have tried to make IB work, I'm even ready to be slightly subpar compared to more traditional builds, as long as "I shine via my bleed" (in pve). However even in that compromising mindset I can never manage to even justify it. Even if I specialize in WM to stack bleed via the crits... well... if you're WMing you're inflicting lots of direct damage, so the target is dead within 3 rounds... so why bother with bleed in the first place? If you're a sneak-attack heavy bleeder, you're dishing out big damage anyway, same comment as above. So then what? Something with abysmal direct damage in hope to kill things via bleeding? In short: I can't compute a build that would manage to have bleed shine and feel like anything but an added bonus. And I can probably bet that you can't either :D

My personal contribution would be Whatever/IB/EKD in hopes to outtank foes as you bleed them to death. But then you can't even squeaze WM so you're not even "the best bleeder in the realm".

xanrael
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by xanrael » Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:34 pm

Do you need to use the same tactics as normal, as in stand there and keep swinging? Or could you for example be a stealther, stacking on some bleeds, and then corner sneak or HIPS and just watch it tick? Or do hit and run so you surprise a mob and get some bleeds going then kite for a bit?

That's my thought process to make bleed matter to deal damage while taking none in return, specifically to mobs instead of players who would just healkit or use some other ability to negate it. Especially if you have a mob like a boss you could tank for a round or two but not take from 100% to dead going toe to toe, you can hit and run strike it over a couple of minutes, heal kitting in between.

Even then I'd rather play an archer type for that sort of playstyle so not saying its a great idea.

Archnon
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by Archnon » Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:54 pm

A good Shadow dancer, invisible blade build would certainly do this. I would go rogue for the +5 ab at level 24 and do 5 invisible blade, 15 sd, 10 rogue. That maxes out your feats, gets keen senses, etc. Shadow dancer builds are insane at pve and your bleed will proc every hit with the shadow out. You could even play actively and bounce around your damage to maximize the bleed times. If you go elf, then do 20 sd, 5 rogue. Your cool down will be real low and dc on sd feats for pvp will be nice. Take max levels in sleight of hand to play up the rp style.

AstralUniverse
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:36 am

Invisible Blade is currently a terrible trap class that isnt worth playing.

The main reason being that Bleed is bad and takes really long time to make any meaningful damage. In the time it takes bleed to ramp up and get to meaningful stacks, any div rogue, swash wm, wm/sd or really just about any meta builds we have simply out-perform and out-damage the invisible blade.
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Rico_scorpion
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by Rico_scorpion » Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:48 pm

Archnon wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:54 pm
A good Shadow dancer, invisible blade build would certainly do this. I would go rogue for the +5 ab at level 24 and do 5 invisible blade, 15 sd, 10 rogue. That maxes out your feats, gets keen senses, etc. Shadow dancer builds are insane at pve and your bleed will proc every hit with the shadow out. You could even play actively and bounce around your damage to maximize the bleed times. If you go elf, then do 20 sd, 5 rogue. Your cool down will be real low and dc on sd feats for pvp will be nice. Take max levels in sleight of hand to play up the rp style.
That would indeed work... but not for the bleed though. You would just kill your target with the sneak attack damage. Maybe throwing 6-9 bleed damage into that (which could have been 3d6 per attack instead). So yeah, I'm not saying it doesn't work, but your "bleed damage" will be completely invisible Except on the occasional boss that manages to kill your shadow => your HIPS and profit. But yeah I do agree that this build is probably the closer possible to "making good use of IB". The only reason I didn't try it is that I made a build too similar to that too recently (basically a rogue/SD).

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garrbear758
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:55 pm

It's on my list for buffs, but I have some other projects to get through first.
But if I was concerned about players not looking ugly, I'd have started executing gnomes a long time ago. -Irongron

Blossom
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by Blossom » Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:41 pm

+4 AC, full BAB, -2 opponent AC and 3d6 sneak attacks... It still seems like blade could be a viable option. There's just no real reason to activate "bleed" instead of the default sneak attacking.

I understand this isn't how IB works elsewhere but one thing that could make bleed useful might be allowing it to apply on any strike instead of just sneak attacks?

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Bunnysmack
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by Bunnysmack » Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:58 pm

This feels like the Pokemon "Nuzzlock" challenge...
"You're insufferable..."
"That's not true! I can totally be suffered!"

Hinty
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by Hinty » Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:11 pm

Rico_scorpion wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:48 pm
Archnon wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:54 pm
A good Shadow dancer, invisible blade build would certainly do this. I would go rogue for the +5 ab at level 24 and do 5 invisible blade, 15 sd, 10 rogue. That maxes out your feats, gets keen senses, etc. Shadow dancer builds are insane at pve and your bleed will proc every hit with the shadow out. You could even play actively and bounce around your damage to maximize the bleed times. If you go elf, then do 20 sd, 5 rogue. Your cool down will be real low and dc on sd feats for pvp will be nice. Take max levels in sleight of hand to play up the rp style.
That would indeed work... but not for the bleed though. You would just kill your target with the sneak attack damage. Maybe throwing 6-9 bleed damage into that (which could have been 3d6 per attack instead). So yeah, I'm not saying it doesn't work, but your "bleed damage" will be completely invisible Except on the occasional boss that manages to kill your shadow => your HIPS and profit. But yeah I do agree that this build is probably the closer possible to "making good use of IB". The only reason I didn't try it is that I made a build too similar to that too recently (basically a rogue/SD).

Unfortunately this DOESN'T work currently. For some reason the shadows Guard effect screws over the bleed. If you have your shadow out and Improved Bleed active, every attack looses 3d6 sneak, but only approximately 1 in 3 attacks get the bleed effect, so having the bleed active just massively gimps your sneak damage for next to no bleed.

I have tried Shadowdancer/IB a few times (trying to get a char concept I like) and the ONLY time I've found it beneficial to turn on bleed is when attacking the Queen Spider for the Unraveling the Web Writ. Her Blind and Fear aura means that I spend much of the fight either not attacking, or trying to hit an enemy with -10 to my AB, so I am left just hoping for a lucky bleed to slowly drain her health. It is the only fight that lasts remotely long enough for bleed to do anything.


I still like IB, the AC buff is nice, the AC Debuff is interesting flavour, but if I was to make the bleed effect actually impactful, I would perhaps change it so that the level 5 Crit bleed stacked 3 levels of bleed not one, and make Crippling Throw and instant action, if possible, one that let you return instantly to fighting. It is currently next to worthless, situations where it is of use are beyond rare.

Still, as it stands, the only way to make Bleed actually work is to combine it with HiPs, Sneak an enemy, fight for 12 seconds, then hide. Then sneak them again.

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Jagel
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by Jagel » Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:38 am

garrbear758 wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:55 pm
It's on my list for buffs, but I have some other projects to get through first.
Like shifter? Sorry, couldnt resist

Rico_scorpion
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by Rico_scorpion » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:02 pm

Why not have the IB damages scale off normal damages but be staggered? This simple tweak would fix all the problems of "why do a bleed when I kill things super fast anyhow" and fix the "bandaid-bleed doesn't change my bursty pve playstyle".

When turned on, 50% (100%?) of your slashing damages are staggered over X rounds (IB level?). The staggered damages per round gets multiplied (125? 150? 200%?) (slower damages but much better), they are also turned to magical damage, and stacks with themselves. That way you do have something to scale it off of, and it does change your playstyle without being trash. You will feel like an efficient bleeder that way.

Just a thought, figured i would share^^

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Jagel
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by Jagel » Sat Mar 06, 2021 4:12 pm

Bleed could incur vulnurability to physical dmg

Good Character
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by Good Character » Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:10 pm

Certain amount of bleed stacks could incur a saveless fear.

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Chaosrook
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by Chaosrook » Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:20 pm

Swashbuckler seems to be a good fit with invisible blade in my opinion.
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MRFTW
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by MRFTW » Fri May 07, 2021 4:08 pm

Sorry for the necro, but I've figured out a way in which using Iblade bleeds is mechanically optimal. It's niche, but:

Rogue 5 Invisible Blade 5 Shadowdancer 20.

SD gives 10d6 of improved sneak attack feat at level 20, therefore meaning the 3 improved sneak attacks from invisible blade levels would be completely wasted since it caps at 10, meaning that for once, it is strictly better to have the bleed enabled rather than disabled.

It's also strictly better to not play a rogue 5 Invisible Blade 5 Shadowdancer 20, but half of the complaint about Iblade is that it's almost always better to not use the bleeds. Here is one scenario where that's hopefully not true. :)

Blossom
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by Blossom » Fri May 07, 2021 8:37 pm

You won't get 4 main hand attacks and you're super feat starved if you try to dual wield. That's only two of the many problems with that build. Like most IB builds it could kind of almost work if you really wanted it to but rogue/fighter/SD or even rogue/ranger/SD is just SO much better.

As I say every time I can, why does bleed have to only work on what would be a sneak attack? It just seems like it would be so much more useful and worth taking levels in if it was as a way for rogue types to deal some damage head on.

AstralUniverse
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun May 09, 2021 3:49 am

Just for clarification. You do get 4 main-hand apr on that build because invisible blade is a full bab class so you can reach 16 bab at lvl 20 with roguish builds. Squeezing in dual wield feats is doable too. My main issue is the lack of Discipline on a melee build.
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Blossom
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by Blossom » Sun May 09, 2021 8:26 am

I was responding specifically to the build above. 5 rogue/5 IB/20 SD won’t get 4 attacks and dual wielding will be rough.

Of course you can with other builds but that shouldn’t have to be clarified or corrected.

Archnon
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by Archnon » Sun May 09, 2021 4:37 pm

Blossom wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:26 am
I was responding specifically to the build above. 5 rogue/5 IB/20 SD won’t get 4 attacks and dual wielding will be rough.

Of course you can with other builds but that shouldn’t have to be clarified or corrected.
Invisible blade is a full bab class, as was mentioned. So any 3/4 bab builed that take 5 invisible blade pre-epic will have 4 attacks.

However, I think you need 6 or 7 levels in a class before you can take SD or IB right?

Blossom
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by Blossom » Sun May 09, 2021 6:07 pm

... sorry then
Last edited by Blossom on Sun May 09, 2021 8:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Opustus
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by Opustus » Sun May 09, 2021 6:10 pm

IB prereqs: Dodge, One-handed weapon WF, 6 Sleight of hand. Qualified by level 4 earliest.

SD prereqs: Hide10, MS5, Tumble5. Qualified by level 8 earliest.

Rogue3 -> IB3 -> Rogue1 -> SD does it for earliest possible SD, which you generally want cos the summon spanks.

As for the BAB16 for 4 APR, however, bad news:
Rogue5/IB5/SD10 pre-epic BAB is only 3+5+7=15, a wrong corrected by going Rogue7/IB5/SD8 pre-epic instead. Misses out on luxurious SD20 but heyho.
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MRFTW
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Re: Invisible blade Challenge

Post by MRFTW » Mon May 10, 2021 2:31 pm

It doesn't get 4 APR, but that wasn't the challenge. The challenge was to present a scenario where the bleed is useful, preferably optimal. If you wanted to actually play it, I'd suggest:

7 rogue 5 IB 18 SD - 7 APR, max Iblade, max SD
8 rogue 5 IB 17 SD - as above, but gets a rogue skilldump in epic but loses some SD stuff
10 rogue 4 IB 16 SD - Crippling strike, keen senses, epic skilldump, optimal juggling of improved sneak attack from both IB and SD. The "best" build all around.

The fact that the best of those builds features the fewest levels of IB says a lot.

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