EDK Usage Advice?

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Bunnysmack
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EDK Usage Advice?

Post by Bunnysmack » Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:00 pm

This post is more in regards to mechanics than builds but I was wondering if I could get some tactical advice on using EDK in both PvP and PvE. My issue is often timing and placement. I tend to call it and...it stands there...Either taking a long time to finally move, or getting body-blocked by AI pathing errors/terrain/narrow paths, or it just stands there letting enemies wail on it without fighting back.

It's hit or miss, as sometimes it works great, and other times it gets derp brain. I've tried simply summoning it, using attack-command emotes, and I've also tried using of player-tool-1 (the latter of which occasionally creates some problems as the HUGE hit box of the dragon often prevents me from clicking a target rather than the dragon itself), and I continue to get mixed results.

With other summons, especially ones with wind-up abilities, I tend to summon them well in advance of when they are needed, but the short duration of CLX2 rounds doesn't allow for a lot of prior set up with EDK, especially in regards to PvP situations with potentially dragging on dialogue prior to the confrontation (especially cause I don't want to just rush the RP aspect of a conflict simply cause my summon is on a countdown timer, that feels like poor form). This is also why I'm a bit clumsy at using Gate, though not nearly so much as my use of EDK.

I hear that there are people in the community that have made great use of the fear aura, GBreach, and body-blocking abilities of the EDK, but I've often found that this is the one spell I am the most clumsy at employing.

I'd appreciate any advice that can help me "git gud" with using EDK.
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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by xanrael » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:20 am

One of the worst cases is if the AI continually decides to switch targets and thus never starts to attack. This can happen if a lot of things are beating on it, especially if one has sneak attack. Can also happens where it really wants to focus on something it can't attack instead of switching to an available target. For this manually targeting something is probably the best bet but the next "solution" might work too.

For other things you can use the player 1 tool to cycle the AI even if you don't want to click with it. Click yourself or the EDK twice in a row to cycle the AI and send an attack nearest right after. You're basically rolling the AI dice again to see if the next attempt also bugs out.

Finally if it gets stuck on something, even some tiny thing, it can LOS itself in the dumbest ways and either using WASD to nudge it to one side or -fetch can fix it.

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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by Hazard » Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:48 am

Ehhh. It sort of sucks.

It's alright to use if you can tank at all, but if you are a pure caster it's sort of just something you drop when the enemy doesn't know to target you, or during a boss fight. Easily killed/ignored by many PCs and bosses, even then.

Good for chomping up certain builds if caught unaware.

That's about it.

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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by Skibbles » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:38 pm

Best advice: don't waste the feat.

Second best advice: use the associate tool and be frustrated at the only thing it's good for - taking up space.
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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by Anomandaris » Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:48 pm

Skibbles wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:38 pm
Best advice: don't waste the feat.

Second best advice: use the associate tool and be frustrated at the only thing it's good for - taking up space.
+1

Especially now that HIPS is going the way of the Dodo it's really not got a lot of value. That was one thing it was nice for, drop a true seeing dragon bot to harass a SD when they HIPS so you can get some space to maneuver.

That said, some people do freak out and attack it when they say it, especially newer players. It's a decent distraction carnifex like 20-40% of the time.

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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by Blossom » Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:34 pm

I haven't used them extensively but I think they're at their best when reskinned as totems for druids or ranger dipped characters. The smaller size makes them much less clunky and seeing a rat who unexpectedly has dragon abilities can throw off even veteran players.

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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by LichBait » Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:43 pm

Too squishy. Use gate over EDK. Similar mileage, and you don't waste a feat. If you're set on the feat, summon it a bit away from a melee so it can spend its two rounds to activate its aura and its Greater Breach. If you summon it in the melee, it's probably going to die before it can get off both.

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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by Bunnysmack » Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:01 pm

I've actually used the shadow dragon to great effect on some characters, but that's not something you can regularly RP justify for a good aligned character, so I've been trying...and failing...to figure out a way to get similar effect out of the Prismatic dragon :|

The smaller size and only activating ONE effect (with auto-quicken no less!) makes it a pretty damn handy minion. Again, that's something that you can potentially justify using for someone that is neutral or evil of alignment, but good characters should use that thing seldom-to-never.

Would be nice if there were other dragon options that had some more variety of size/stats/usage than the rest of the streams, as opposed to them all largely being the same thing except in regards to which element they are strong/weak versus. Even dracolich is essentially the same cookie-cutter size/stats/abilities, just with undead immunities/weaknesses.
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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by Skibbles » Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:46 am

If releveling out of it isn't an option the only tip I can think of is to make sure you have the associate tool active, target the enemy, and then go completely hands off so you don't bork the AI with repeated commands while it's mid fear-aura (the fear aura being the only reason I've heard people still take the feat).

IIRC The Prismatic dragon used to be the second best, right behind undead dragon, but after the change I think it went to first place because undead immunities absolutely do not cover for less AC/HP. If you're having trouble with even the Prismatic dragon - I don't think it's from a lack of pro-tips, it's that they're just bad. This feat has almost completely fallen out of use for good reason, and it's going to be mostly flavor and come with all the penalties that flavor gets you.

Gate is generally better, as was mentioned.

As an aside I really wish this feat was just axed from the whole game (or reworked into like a Gate+) because it's just so sad, and silly, to pull these gigantic immortal ancient beings from your pocket and watch them get easily butchered by a middling weaponmaster with a clarity potion or an average spawn of maur.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by -XXX- » Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:18 pm

For an epic feat EDK is lackluster atm. The proposed usage for the feat would be not taking it at all right now.

Apparently the team doesn't want you to EDK, they want you to spellmonk

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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by Lexx » Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:58 pm

Don't throw it out expecting it to tank or survive any incoming serious damage in any way.

As is. It's best used for scaring sneaks with its truesight. I've had mine peck a fair few rogues to death and casters that were out of mords/dismissal/banishments.

Otherwise it's a nice showpiece and RP fluff feat. Handy to have in the back pocket in PvE and you've run out of mainline summons and need breathing space. You also need open spaces and precise use of the associate tool to get most out of it usually I find. It is definitely good situationaly for blocking a narrow passage whilst you get out of dodge.

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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:16 am

My best advice would be to pick the feat and just understand that it's not a huge game changer. It's pretty good for it's cost in my honest opinion. It wont single handedly win you battles but it can buy you a lot of space and many characters simply dont have the stats to ignore it. As for it's functional usage. It is always best to micro the pet to stand close to the enemy and then order them to attack. They will often not waste time casting spells and just attack if they are in close enough range.
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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by Bunnysmack » Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:37 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:16 am
My best advice would be to pick the feat and just understand that it's not a huge game changer. It's pretty good for it's cost in my honest opinion. It wont single handedly win you battles but it can buy you a lot of space and many characters simply dont have the stats to ignore it. As for it's functional usage. It is always best to micro the pet to stand close to the enemy and then order them to attack. They will often not waste time casting spells and just attack if they are in close enough range.
Is that with player tool 1, or some other control function? One issue I tend to run into, especially in adrenaline fueled encounters, is the EDK's hitbox catching my click commands with player tool 1 and thereby having the tool release control of the summon. TRYING to click a nearby patch of ground or an enemy....Actually clicking the huge fat dragon.
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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by -XXX- » Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:37 pm

Bunnysmack wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:37 pm
One issue I tend to run into, especially in adrenaline fueled encounters, is the EDK's hitbox catching my click commands with player tool 1 and thereby having the tool release control of the summon. TRYING to click a nearby patch of ground or an enemy....Actually clicking the huge fat dragon.
Very much this. Interestingly enough, it's an issue that has been somewhat reintroduced by EE for me.
Before EE you could just edit your nwplayer file allowing you to zoom really far away from your toon, so targeting over huge summons with the player tool wasn't that much of an issue.

I've not found a way to do this in EE and EDK is large enough to cause targeting issues with the limited zooming options. This can be often made worse by some of the newer tilesets that forcezoom the camera closer when it clips against a wall/ceiling.

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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by Hazard » Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:38 am

-XXX- wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:37 pm
This can be often made worse by some of the newer tilesets that forcezoom the camera closer when it clips against a wall/ceiling.
Thisthisthis.

I don't know how some people even navigate through certain areas. Objects seem to get in the way of the camera now too, but only sometimes? For example, I can't even go into the bramble without practically going all the way down to first person view. Revolting.

Imagining PVP in these areas? Honestly I would just run away and pvp elsewhere.

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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by Tarkus the dog » Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:15 pm

Uhhh.

Basically follow these easy steps:

1. be a gnome
2. anger a weaponmaster
3. summon the EDK
4. sit inside the EDK

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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by -XXX- » Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:20 pm

Tarkus the dog wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:15 pm
Uhhh.

Basically follow these easy steps:

1. be a gnome
2. anger a weaponmaster
3. summon the EDK
4. sit inside the EDK
Sounds exploity.

And even then, it buys you like... 2 rounds of combat at best, so what you're saying is that EDK is a ...bad timestop?

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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by Tarkus the dog » Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:26 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:20 pm
Tarkus the dog wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:15 pm
Uhhh.

Basically follow these easy steps:

1. be a gnome
2. anger a weaponmaster
3. summon the EDK
4. sit inside the EDK
Sounds exploity.

And even then, it buys you like... 2 rounds of combat at best, so what you're saying is that EDK is a ...bad timestop?
I didn't think someone would take my post seriously, but here's a question:

What are you fighting, three barbarians?

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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by LIAR LIAR » Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:09 pm

Yeah, EDK can be troublesome in how it's spotty. Ive still seen it be useful in PvP moreso than PvE. But it's something that might not work out unless you're in a bit of an open area. If your EDK is able to move around smoothly, it can be very scary to have chasing down your enemy while you kite and cast spells. Or they can try to kill it, while you cast spells directly on them without any problem whatsoever. The 'two rounds' people are supposing it buys is four spells from a hasted caster.

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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:54 pm

Bunnysmack wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:37 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:16 am
My best advice would be to pick the feat and just understand that it's not a huge game changer. It's pretty good for it's cost in my honest opinion. It wont single handedly win you battles but it can buy you a lot of space and many characters simply dont have the stats to ignore it. As for it's functional usage. It is always best to micro the pet to stand close to the enemy and then order them to attack. They will often not waste time casting spells and just attack if they are in close enough range.
Is that with player tool 1, or some other control function? One issue I tend to run into, especially in adrenaline fueled encounters, is the EDK's hitbox catching my click commands with player tool 1 and thereby having the tool release control of the summon. TRYING to click a nearby patch of ground or an enemy....Actually clicking the huge fat dragon.
I use player tool 1.

In the few times I pvped with edk, I summoned it between my opponent and myself, so 1) its hard for them to click me 2) if they want to reach me they need to go through the dragon and 3) the dragon is close enough to them that it wont start casting, unless they run away from the dragon but then they also build distance from me, which is good for me. I think it's worthy of the investment of the feat and if anything, other summons might be too strong. EDK is no longer the win-fight button it used to be but if I spend 3 seconds to summon it and my enemy spends more than 6 or 12 seconds to get rid of it then it's a worthy epic feat investment imo.
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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by -XXX- » Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:37 pm

EDK has never been a "win-fight button". Most optimal builds piloted by a semi-competent player could handle it just fine before and after its nerf.

It was nerfed because it could tank bosses in PvE very well, so they made it much squishier, that's all.

The problem with the proposition of using EDK as a "roadblock" is that it enters the fight flat-footed and remains so up until the simpleton AI kicks in - prompting it with the player tool doesn't make a difference here. In PvE this often means that the dragon gets clubbed to death by inferior mobs before it gets to do anything and in PvP the opponent can just WASD around it before it wakes up.

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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by donarek » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:13 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:37 pm
..
Before EE you could just edit your nwplayer file allowing you to zoom really far away from your toon, so targeting over huge summons with the player tool wasn't that much of an issue.

I've not found a way to do this in EE and EDK is large enough to cause targeting issues with the limited zooming options. This can be often made worse by some of the newer tilesets that forcezoom the camera closer when it clips against a wall/ceiling.
...
I just found this option to set Min and Max zoom level in ee, it's:

Game options > Input > Camera > Advanced

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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by Blossom » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:28 pm

It's really amazing how much better EDK works if it's reskinned as a totem animal on a druid or ranger dip.

Makes me wish there was a way to call a smaller dragon. Not weakening the summon any further just shrinking it. If you could summon a horse-sized young adult instead of an ancient monstrosity would the AI handle better? That would explain why the dragons we summon aren't that powerful as well.

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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by Bunnysmack » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:41 pm

I tried to ask for a reduction of size on it via the feedback section at one point buuuuuut, a lot of people seem to like the enormous doorstop status that blocks off paths. I eventually decided to give up on that debate, having given my two-cents and gotten community answers.

I will say the zooming out thing would really help the clunky camera limitations of managing a creature so large in certain areas. If the team has no complaints about altering that setting, I might try that solution.
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Re: EDK Usage Advice?

Post by -XXX- » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:47 pm

donarek wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:13 pm
I just found this option to set Min and Max zoom level in ee, it's:

Game options > Input > Camera > Advanced
WOOT! Thanks! :D

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