Shifter Build

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Waldo52
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Shifter Build

Post by Waldo52 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:34 pm

I just saw a post here about shifters that got me thinking...

I'm thoroughly enjoying my current character (the rogue blackguard you guys helped me build), but I'm thinking about making something months in the future as a side character to play with my friend. So I'm not necessarily looking for a detailed build, just general advice at this point.

The character concept is basically that I'm playing a shifter who learns the secrets of undeath. I want to specialize in one or two forms (the vampire, ghost and risen lord are all hella-cool but I prefer the latter two).

Beyond that, I'm open to ideas. I want to know in rough outlines how to make this sort of build work mechanically, and which third class to pick outside of druid and shifter.

I'm addicted to sneak attacking and/or the set trap skill so I want to know of any rogue or ranger synergies, or if the negative energy trap splash damage will heal me as an undead creature. That aside, the concept of being a blackguard and getting some summons and sneak damage is alluring. Knight sounds cool, the thought of having all those knightly abilities is neat.

Does the whole undead shifter idea work? How would you build it generally?

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Re: Shifter Build

Post by Good Character » Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:21 pm

Shifter is hands down the worst class. Worse than Invisible Blade, whose class features are found to be impossible to consistently use.

Still want help with that in mind?

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Waldo52
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Re: Shifter Build

Post by Waldo52 » Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:58 pm

Good Character wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:21 pm
Shifter is hands down the worst class. Worse than Invisible Blade, whose class features are found to be impossible to consistently use.

Still want help with that in mind?
Wow! Possibly.

Would I basically be dead on arrival with pvp?

I have these fantasies of being a spectre or risen lord and doing cool stuff, but if it's just objectively useless I don't see the point.

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Aradin
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Re: Shifter Build

Post by Aradin » Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:52 pm

Let me tell ya firsthand, one plays shifter for the RP. You're not going to have any semblance of real mechanical strength unless you go druid/shifter/monk, in which case your one decent perk is nice AC. A level 30 kobold commando shape can comfortably get mid-70s AC, and most other shapes are between 50-70. Generally speaking though you will absolutely get stomped in PVP, let alone most level-equivalent PvE content. The main problem with shifter mechanics is that all your creature abilities have very low DCs, and your AB is trash across the board. When I min-maxed a shifter in the PGCC I wasn't even hitting 40 AB by level 30 unless it was in dragon shape. The variety of shifter forms allow you to take on any role in a party, but you don't do any role particularly well.

That's not to say shifter isn't fun! But it's closely monitored by the DMs - you have to submit a character concept and get it approved just to get the token to take shifter levels in the first place - because of its roleplay ramifications. A shifter can use their abilities to fit into every society in Arelith, from Cordor to Sencliff to Andunor, with no way for other characters to break their shapeshift. You can stay in the risen lord shape forever and RP as a lich, or do the same with the medusa or the mindflayer. You can have ten different lives all across the island, virtually untraceably if you play smart, weaving subterfuge. *That* is the mechanical power of the shifter, not killing ability. I consider them extremely strong in terms of roleplay potential and I think the devs do as well - that's why they're extremely weak in terms of stats. It's a tradeoff. They're good at something not measured in numbers.
Heck, it's even stated on the wiki that the DMs might turn down your shifter application just to keep the presence of shifters on the server extremely rare. They don't want dozens of manticores and basilisks and flesh golems and azers running around. The application process + the weak combat mechanics are why (according to the last player count I read) there are only 4 shifters on the entire server.

For what you want to do I'd recommend a rogue/palemaster build of some kind, playing as a vampire if you have a major reward. Others more knowledgeable about such things can chip in here.

Was Lloyd Grimm, Sai Aung-K'yi, Stink Spellworped, Ikarus, and Revyn the White.


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Waldo52
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Re: Shifter Build

Post by Waldo52 » Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:56 pm

I just tried it on PGCC... Wow. That was too sad.

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Re: Shifter Build

Post by Poolbrain » Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:58 am

Tbh. There are "strong" shifter builds but maybe not for pvp. But it all gets a bit corny since you need to powerbuild and min max so hard around a specific shape.

You can make risen dwarven defender that could probably solo most content on the server. Its the only build i tried that could easily kill that strongest dragon on the PGCC for example (not saying there arent others) but its an awkward multiclass to rp and would suck to lvl.

Plenty of weaknesses though in pvp since people can just change to a bludgeoning weapon in pvp or use umd etc... you dont pose kill threat either so anyone who cant kill you just leave.

Shifter mechanics are weird however and you will mess your build up. And even if done prrfectly have big weaknesses.

You can make a working suboptimal build with shifter but you really need to know how to build and all the shifter detail. Like risen lord lets you maintain you dex but will give you new str an con base values etc so you can squeeze out more by going 19 con then full dex.. its weird.

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Re: Shifter Build

Post by Waldo52 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:53 pm

That was the impression I got playing the class, that it seemed like a gold mine for certain hugely specific things if elaborately planned for. Even without EKD levels I did notice they a risen lord with epic damage resistance x3 was a tough nut to crack. But at what cost? I wasn't doing any damage. The ghost has +15 to hide/ms which is really fun, and I took 14 rogue levels. But I wasn't hitting anything.

The closest to real PVP applications I could consider were doing spying, trap setting and intel gathering as a ghost or holding a narrow pass as a risen lord while a friendly caster drops negative energy bursts to heal me a bit and hurt the enemy a bit.

Hugely limited and situational stuff. I'll bother you guys again about shifter builds if I'm feeling massochistic enough to level something like this but for now it's a no from me.

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Re: Shifter Build

Post by Poolbrain » Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:46 pm

Nice thing with the shifter is that you dont need ab on the weapons so you can sometimes abuse certain items that normally are bad.

Like sword of elements could possibly up your damage a lot in pve while still counting as a +5 scythe.

Like you dont need to hold a scythe for it to give you focus bonus. You can hold any silly weapon.

Shifters are cool on a lot of server cause you start looking at every item from a different perspective and can find things that really becomes OP which 99% of the playerbase wont think about.

Like on this server your risen shifter trash can would probably be a deep gnome with scythe focus for 19 con and Spell resistance with earthkin defender levels and imp disarm to boost ab. Plenty of more items to boost stacking immunities and phys/elemental Damage reduction. Buildwise its cool but really lame from an RP perspective :P

You can grab low ab weapons with hit effect or just look for high damage bonus items.

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Re: Shifter Build

Post by Pincushion » Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:35 pm

As someone who has played a shifter extensively and tested out a few builds, I can guarantee that the 8 swash/5 druid/17 shifter split is by far the best option, relying solely on the kobold commando shape. It is one of few viable forms that have uncapped strength, whilst also giving you 25 dex - so you bump up strength as hard as you can, and go that route. You have to exploit the way that item merging works with things like the +4 buckler to make the most of it, and due to the fact that the kobold commando is one-handing a shortsword you're able to net the +8 bonus int damage that swashbuckler offers.

You end up with 65/70 AC once fully geared, and with high 40s AB. You can net crits in the 80s with 4 APR, but your true weakness is the inability to use scrolls and a variety of other limitations that come from the quirks of NWN shape change mechanics. You will be outperformed by meta builds, and the levelling will be incredibly rough throughout.

The high wis monk shifter that's often talked about is (more of) a meme, and you will find yourself suffering far more. Monk UBAB doesn't stack with the two semi-viable shapes due to their weapon choices and you'll be relying on form-locked stats instead of open-ended ones, such as the kobold commandos strength. You'll have high AC in some forms and will be able to access outsider and construct shape, but you won't be able to do anything with them except flaunt the fact that you *can* turn into them. The rakshasa shape is unique in that it has level 8 and below spell immunity and an infinite ice storm, but it's affected by SR and you'll be a weak joke in a serious PvP/PvE setting.

When it comes to weapons, the blade of elements probably isn't your best bet. Due to the fact that the actual core weapon is altered and just the stats are taken over, something like the variable whip is far better. It nets:

Damage Bonus: Slashing 6 Damage
Unique Power: +2d6 (Random Elemental Damage)
(plus a standard and temporary essence)

((There may be a better item than this available, I just can't think of any off the top of my head.))

As opposed to several 1d4s worth of elemental damage, which is pretty weak. Kobold commando and a few other epic shapes get +4/5 weapons, which overrides merged items if it's a lower number. Helmet AC doesn't merge into the form but stats from it do, so probably want a +2 int/other stat helm which doesn't get overridden by second skin. Equally, you only get 1 unisave, so you have to be versatile with taking specific save enchantments on different items.

Shifter is very hard to build around due to the fact that it has a two-class tax, one of which usually needs to be in epic levels to reach the desired form. In design the class attempts to be a jack of all trades, but in practice you have to get used to roleplaying as a guy who can turn into a kobold with a really good shank.

Because this post isn't long enough, here's a few builds I've tried over the years, if you want an amuse-bouche of suffering:

Druid/Shifter/Assassin

A meme where you pump up intelligence and rely on shifted stats to boost your AB up. Against low AC opponents it is beyond stupid, and if you feel like seeing the highest you can possibly get a stat, the mind flayer form gives a +8 to intelligence. I don't recall if its hard or soft ranks, though. Bad meme.

Druid/Shifter/ED

The epic gargoyle form gets 25/+7 DR. Combine this with earthkin defender to get that juicy extra DR, and you've become a very irritating human being. Epic gargoyles get their natural constitution so you've got health up the wazoo, but you won't be able to use any of the earthkin abilities due to technically not wearing any armor whilst polymorphed. Bad.

Druid/Shifter/Barbarian

This is an established classic in level 40 cap servers, playing a risen lord for the undead immunities. It's bad. Especially bad in Arelith, where you're capped at 30 and there's no amazingly good +12 stat items to fuel you. Bad bad bad bad.

Druid/Shifter/Blackguard

You just rely on that litty blackguard summon, at the expense of viability (lol). Due to the high cost of going shifter for good shapes, you're either stuck having a mediocre summon, or you don't even get epic kobold commando. Bad, and also maybe lore-breaking cuz muh balance.

Druid/Shifter/Blackguard Dip

You could do this with paragon too I suppose, but you just pump up charisma as much as possible for the divine shield/might funsies. Bad.


Anyway, shifter is bad and you shouldn't entertain the notion of playing it if you value your time and sanity.

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Ork
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Re: Shifter Build

Post by Ork » Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:53 pm

I'll say it here so maybe it gets changed, but most shifter forms with weapons merge with the weapon you've equipped. +15 ENCHANT champion dart as a shortsword, you say? Yes. Suddenly that 70 AC 40 AB kobold commando has 55 AB & 70 AC & infinite hips.

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Jagel
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Re: Shifter Build

Post by Jagel » Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:27 pm

Ork wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:53 pm
I'll say it here so maybe it gets changed, but most shifter forms with weapons merge with the weapon you've equipped. +15 ENCHANT champion dart as a shortsword, you say? Yes. Suddenly that 70 AC 40 AB kobold commando has 55 AB & 70 AC & infinite hips.
Ranged weapon properties don’t merge (bows, crossbows) but thrown weapons are weird so maybe this is a thing?

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Aradin
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Re: Shifter Build

Post by Aradin » Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:41 pm

Just tested it on PGCC. Thrown weapons do not merge with shifter forms.

Was Lloyd Grimm, Sai Aung-K'yi, Stink Spellworped, Ikarus, and Revyn the White.


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Re: Shifter Build

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:55 pm

The best way to build for a shifter is to do the opposite of what it thematicly is supposed to do: hyper specialize for a specific form or two. The minimum level of shifters to get the most optimal version of said form and then lvl in another class to synergize.

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Waldo52
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Re: Shifter Build

Post by Waldo52 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:17 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:55 pm
The best way to build for a shifter is to do the opposite of what it thematicly is supposed to do: hyper specialize for a specific form or two. The minimum level of shifters to get the most optimal version of said form and then lvl in another class to synergize.
It's interesting in theory but the responses here and my experience with the PGCC has mostly dissuaded me from pursuing it.

My goal was to specialize in the ghost or risen lord undead form but the former had pretty sad dexterity and nothing going for it outside of stealth bonuses. The latter can apparently be a sort of okay dwarven defender or maybe monk... Which is something I guess? A little particular and random for my tastes.

It's a funny class. You have to start as a druid to become something that stops casting spells and turns into iron golems and corpses and other unnatural beasts. The forms tend to be explicitly melee oriented but for the most part you'll never hit anything. Not to mention that gaining these wacky, unusual and sometimes immoral abilities often locks you into being... What?! Lawful neutral?!

I do wonder if Shifters will ever get an overhaul. The druid requirement alone is baffling and it's all downhill from there.

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Jagel
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Re: Shifter Build

Post by Jagel » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:30 pm

Specializing in the epic shapes has the weakness of being only 3/day.

The weapon groups have made ot slightly more viable to get some weapon focus etc but only slightly

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Re: Shifter Build

Post by Drak » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:51 am

I played a Shifter. I can't remember the build but It was 16 or 17 Shifter, 5 Druid and...fighter maybe? Either way!

As others are mentioning, speccing into one thing severely limits you. While planning for all will also be a detriment. The fact is, Shifter is just designed bad in NWN overall.

Mine wasn't very combat heavy. And if he was it was either Risen Lord form or Kobold commando.

The real strength in playing a Shifter is the RP, honestly. Mine was a hin, and there was a DM Event where these shadow portals were opening in and around Bendir. I was shifted into a Kobold and -everyone- was confused. He was trying to help give orders since I think the only real Hawkin' around at the time was Gully. But, a kobold commando, playing commando during a raid was pretty epic.

Another DM Event had a possessed hin try to attack us, then I turned into a Minoraur and held him to the roof of a burrow. Good times.

Mechanically you're subpar to a fighter, a rogue, a mage. You are basically a jack of all trade, master of none. Get a gonne and pew pew, or simply enjoy the RP of being incredibly unique!

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